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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Maho-Tsukai's Avatar

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    Default In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    Inspired by an old idea of mine, I decided that I want to build a spellcaster class that, like the Shugenja, was built to be the only fullcaster in the campaigns in which it was used. Unlike the shugenja, however, I wanted it to actually be able to model most, if not all archetypal caster-characters well without being totally overpowered. As a result I have a basic idea and some features for the class that I had made ages ago for it's original incarnation. However after looking back at it I decided that I wanted to change it up a bit. As a result I am looking for help with the class in three areas:

    First of all, here's an unfinished rough draft of the class with outdated fluff:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ragonpact+Mage

    (Oh, and just so you know it has sorcerer spells known, in case I got to put it in that old thread.)

    A) The most important thing, a Mana System. Yes....ultimately I would like the class to lose the spells per-day system all together and instead run on a mana-based system yet I have absolutely no idea how to make a not-broken mana system and the spell points system is horridly broken, too. So if anybody knows of a non-broken Mana/spell-points type system or feels they can make it I would most definitely appreciate help in this department.

    A) With all those spheres come associated class features and I just don't have the idea for that many class features. Thus, I would greatly appreciate people helping me make some class features for all the spheres, as well as fixing any flaws that the existing features may possess.

    C) Eventually I seek to sort every spell in the game into a sphere. A daunting task, I know, and thus one I would rather not take on alone(though I am willing to if I must.). Thus, if anybody has any spare time and knows both their fluff and spells I would love to have some people help me with this task and I have a VERY useful resource as far as finding spells goes for anybody who dose not have a big collection but wants to lend a hand.

    So, is anybody out there willing to help me with this endeavor?(Oh, and if you do you will obviously be fully credited for whatever work you do if I post the full class once finished on the playground.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    I might be interested in helping.

    For mana systems I keep bringing up this one when asked, but if you're looking for a per encounter thing than I could probably whip one of those up.
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    The Chaote: a free form mage.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DracoDei's Avatar

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    I don't know if this works, but have you looked at the psionics system (which has a points basis)? It can be found contained at www.d20srd.org
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    YouLostMe's Avatar

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    I think spell points and power points are basically the same thing, so Maho-Tsukai probably doesn't like them either.

    I really like Epsilon Rose's suggestion, though it IS done on the daily. My imagining of a per-encounter system would have strain tolerance equal to 1/2 caster level + [Something small]. When you cast a spell, your strain would go up. In order to recharge strain, you could either rest for one turn (turning off buffs or something would be necessary) or cast a lower-level spell, which would get used and decrease your strain by some amount.

    Like at level 20, If you have 12 strain tolerance. During the first round of combat, you cast a level 9 spell, giving you 9 strain. The round after, you cast a level 5 spell, which removes 2 strain or something, leaving you with 7 strain. The round after that, you cast another level 9 spell putting you at 16 and making you exhausted...

    I really don't know how it would work, but that's the idea.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    Quote Originally Posted by YouLostMe View Post
    I think spell points and power points are basically the same thing, so Maho-Tsukai probably doesn't like them either.

    I really like Epsilon Rose's suggestion, though it IS done on the daily. My imagining of a per-encounter system would have strain tolerance equal to 1/2 caster level + [Something small]. When you cast a spell, your strain would go up. In order to recharge strain, you could either rest for one turn (turning off buffs or something would be necessary) or cast a lower-level spell, which would get used and decrease your strain by some amount.

    Like at level 20, If you have 12 strain tolerance. During the first round of combat, you cast a level 9 spell, giving you 9 strain. The round after, you cast a level 5 spell, which removes 2 strain or something, leaving you with 7 strain. The round after that, you cast another level 9 spell putting you at 16 and making you exhausted...

    I really don't know how it would work, but that's the idea.
    That first idea is interesting, but I don't think requiring them to turn off buffs is at all a good idea. It seems counter-productive and liable to simply discourage helping others (vis-a-vis damage or control which won't get undone). I don't really understand the recharge mechanic on the second one, but something that drops them straight into exhausted on the third turn seems like a bad idea.

    I do have an idea for a not-per-day system, though I'm not sure how good it is and it could probably use some tuning any ways. Please tell me your thoughts.

    A spell caster must make a spellcraft check with a dc of (spell level)^n where n is the number of times a spell of that level has been cast and n is reset every spell level+1 rounds without casting a spell of that level.
    The three advantages of this system are that it encourages casters to use spells of all levels so their timers can reset, they are unlikely to ever be able to cast more than 2 high level spells in an encounter and this allows for less discreet encounters since the spells are refreshing based on time not encounter. The cons are that casting 4 4th level spells has a dc of 64 (it naturally gets worse form there) meaning that they'll be relying on timers for most spells (this might not be a bad thing since lower level spells have shorter timers) and the fact that like all per-encounter or per-round systems it results in effectively infinite magic outside of combat.
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    The Chaote: a free form mage.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    First off, what kind of feel do you want for this caster? How do you want it to be played? This is the most important question you have to answer. Do you want it to feel like a mage with a complete and utter mastery of one sphere, dabbling skills in another sphere, and some, but minimal, skills in other spheres? Or do you want it to be more variable, with someone having decent skill, but not mastery, of two spheres, and a smattering of knowledge in other spheres? A natural disposition to two spheres, but the ability to use a huge variety of magic?

    One way to answer this is to ask yourself how you want this to play in combat. Just slinging around spells from the two focused spheres, and the occasional spell from another one? Casting spells from all over the spheres, with the most powerful coming from the specialist sphere? This is important to determine the system you want. For example, you might want the strain system proposed above, but spells from your primary sphere are cast as spells of one level lower, and spells of your secondary sphere the same level level lower, and spells outside of this one level higher; this more or less forces them into casting spells from those spheres, but they have access to other spheres, at greater cost, if they need them. They also are able to call more powerful spells from their primary sphere than anywhere else; they have access to the spells there one spell level earlier than anywhere else. Alternatively, they have a certain set of spells known, drawn from a couple of different spheres, and at the beginning of each encounter they select a subset they're able to cast for the encounter. They have to have a certain number of those spells in the encounter from their primary sphere, additional spells from their secondary sphere, and the few remaining slots divvied up as they choose, including to spells outside of the two. Then they might have a small power point pool, recharged each encounter, that they can use to manifest any spell they chose for their subset. This method gives versatility, forcing a character to remain in their primary set, but whenever they need it, they have access to a handful of spells outside of their list for their use. (I might use that somewhere else, actually... it seems like an interesting concept for a caster.) If you do this, you need to impose some limits; spheres have to remain relatively closed (no more than 5~6 spells/spell level in a sphere). Limits would need to be imposed on which spells they can select; they can't just select the 9th level spells most suited to the situation; they need to divide the spells up somewhat evenly amongst the spell levels. A third option might be to use a psionic-esque system of power points/day, divvied up into different "color" pools. One pool can only be used on spells/powers from the primary spheres, another one can be used on spells/powers from the primary or secondary spheres, and a relatively small amount of colorless mana can be spent on powers from any spheres. This shoehorns casters into fulfilling their role, and their role only, during combat for most of the day, with the power to use spells from elsewhere in a couple of extraordinary circumstances a couple of times per day. There are a ton of options for the mana system, but we need to know how you want the class to be used before we can get you the right mana system for the class.

    Also, for the different spheres: There are a couple of guides out there that can help you find the right sphere for different spells, by listing how they're used in the game- as well as role and relative power. Not all of them, but it's a start.
    Last edited by Fable Wright; 2011-05-30 at 03:42 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    Ernir has done an intriguing attempt to convert all 3.5e Core magic to psionics (i.e. point-based) mechanics.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Darth Stabber's Avatar

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    Honestly, as far as non-borked methods of spell points, psionics is really good. Aside from some nova issues at very high optimization. If you want to convert normal magic over, just find the level a wizard would lean the spell, and have no function of the spell other than duration scale with caster level, actual scaling requireing pp expenditure. Afew spells might need a bit a fixing here ir there (especially low level damage spells, which should now gain a die every PP as opposed to every other).
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Maho-Tsukai's Avatar

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    So basicly strip away caster level based scalling and require extra PP investment to boost normally CL dependent spells? That could work, though certain spells(such as save or dies not dependent on CL) could become an issue. What would you do about stuff like, say Finger of Death..under that system? Leave it be? Get rid of it? Make it less broken?
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-14 at 11:33 AM.
    Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika

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    Level 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...

    Strength- 11
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    Constitution- 12
    Intelligence- 15
    Wisdom- 17
    Charisma- 16

    To find out your D&D self take this quiz today!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    For the big spells like Finger of Death, take a page from 4th edition and make them daily-use spells/rituals/whatever. That way you limit their use without nerfing their effects.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Maho-Tsukai's Avatar

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    That could work. Also, are there any ideas on how many power points should be payed to boost the effectiveness. 1 point for 1 effectuve CL may be too overpowered, and as a result I am not sure how many points it should take ro raise the "effective CL" of a spell...

    As for save or dies, I could always do what pathfinder did and and just make them blasty spells. As for rituals, certain spells would work better as rituals, but save-or-dies, which are really meant for in-combat use don't really fit that mold as you would generally want to use it in situations where there would not be enough time to go through an elaborate ritual requireing all kinds of profaine rites, materals perhaps even an altar ect...(said situation being called combat.) So yeah, those type of spells still seem problematic under this system and making them be used 1/day would work but seem odd to make them run on a system other then mana/whatever you want to call it...thus, the only way I could see the 1/day casting for save or-dies and simmilar spells work would be to have them function and be treated just like any other spell but say they can only be used 1/day right in their spell-text, rather then just make them follow a totally different ruleset.
    Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika

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    Level 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...

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    Intelligence- 15
    Wisdom- 17
    Charisma- 16

    To find out your D&D self take this quiz today!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    I'd say each spell point should raise CL by two, but that's just me.

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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    As for save or dies, I suggest that they be made rituals, but the ritual is used for charging the spells material component. Once the ritual has been completed, the spell can be cast as normal.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    ^ What's to stop them from keeping a ritual always prepped, for a get out of a sticky situation free card?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    Not if the effect of the ritual only lasts 24 hours.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: In need of Homebrew Help (Mana system and more.)

    And if they keep one up as part of the adventuring day?
    I do like the idea, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
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