[D&D] Impact of Colossal Creatures on the Environment

[Callos_DeTerran]

For people who have seen my other new thread, yes, this is directly related to Daikaiju Dynasties. This is, ideally, a thread for those who have some knowledge of biology and how animals affect their environment.

My question is, how does a Colossal creature, the largest creature type that D&D goes to pre-epic, affect the environment around them? These are ungodly big creatures, and usually are carnivorous in D&D. Would they keep extremely vast 'territories' and just stay on the move to avoid depleting the food in just one area? Same goes for Colossal herbivores, do they just muscle out the competition for food since they are, undoubtedly, much bigger then most others of their kind or do they develop a niche eating are (like giraffes) to get the food no other animal can get to? So on and so forth along this line of thought. Is it just a Lensman Arms race? Other animals in the area have to become deadlier/bigger/smarter in order to compete with the Colossal creatures?

Does anyone have any ideas, suggestions, or knowledge on this subject?

[Yora]

Out of curiosity I've looked up some numbers and going by weight estimates for size categories, the blue whale is about the only creature on earth ever to reach colossal size. Other whales and even the largest dinosaurs were only gargantuan size at the most,

[nyarlathotep]

Blue whales, the bigger mesosaurs, and truly gigantic dinosaurs would be gargantuan size I don't think anything living has ever gotten to colossal size in real life.

[Solaris]

For, say, dragons that could help explain why they don't build civilizations. After a certain point, an area simply cannot feed more than one or two of them.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Out of curiosity I've looked up some numbers and going by weight estimates for size categories, the blue whale is about the only creature on earth ever to reach colossal size. Other whales and even the largest dinosaurs were only gargantuan size at the most,

Which is actually really neat to know, seriously cause now I have a soft limit for 'normal' creatures in that setting, but it doesn't help deal with colossal creatures.

[Solaris]

Which is actually really neat to know, seriously cause now I have a soft limit for 'normal' creatures in that setting, but it doesn't help deal with colossal creatures.

Extrapolation. Look at what blue whales do. They need to eat almost constantly, and they eat one of the richest food sources out there.

[Seb Wiers]

Magic. Most creatures larger than large-sized have a "metabolism" that taps into primal, arcane, psionic, or divine energy to sustain the creature (and stengthen their bones enough to get around that pesky square/cube law, etc). Heck, even some medium or smaller creatures have this- do you really think a Dragonborn eats enough food to provide fuel for his flame breath?

That being the case, their dietary needs follow magical rules, not normal ones. A colossal dragon might get a weeks worth of nutrition from eating a single elf maiden, but hardly any nutrition at all from eating a team of oxen. Explains a lot, eh?

[Knaight]

I don't think anything living has ever gotten to colossal size in real life.

Some flora certainly has. The largest Redwoods for one, not to mention the various species of "trees" that are basically entire groves or small forests. Then there are coral reefs.

Concerning animals, ocean dwelling colossal creatures are the easiest to handle. Presumably they would be highly mobile, eat primarily plankton or hunt for other extremely large creatures, and be extremely rare, requiring a huge amount of biomass to support. Land based creatures are a little more complex, though given that the square cube law is already being violated with glee by necessity magic is a better excuse.

[Vknight]

I think the example from 'Toriko' of the super herbivore is perfect. If it is a group of creatures the damage will be immense to the ecosystem. If one creature the damage will still be severe but not as great.
Creatures of that size could eat away all a continents vegetation

[Solaris]

Magic. Most creatures larger than large-sized have a "metabolism" that taps into primal, arcane, psionic, or divine energy to sustain the creature (and stengthen their bones enough to get around that pesky square/cube law, etc). Heck, even some medium or smaller creatures have this- do you really think a Dragonborn eats enough food to provide fuel for his flame breath?

A colossal dragon might get a weeks worth of nutrition from eating a single elf maiden. Explains a lot, eh?

Could be that the dragon prefers humanoids (which are more work) because magically they're much more efficient food - the dragon's not feeding on the elf-maid's body, the dragon's feeding on her potential.

[SamBurke]

Magic... Do you really think a Dragonborn eats enough food to provide fuel for his flame breath?

Actually, yes. Give them a gland of some sort of chemical (not strong in chemistry) that ignites upon touching air, give them a way to manufacture it, and one muscle to shoot it. Simple, easy, and SCIENTIFIC!

[Zaydos]

Actually, yes. Give them a gland of some sort of chemical (not strong in chemistry) that ignites upon touching air, give them a way to manufacture it, and one muscle to shoot it. Simple, easy, and SCIENTIFIC!

They breathe lightning and ice though.

Also dragons can subsist on a mineral diet; there's some heavy amounts of magic in their digestive capabilities (the Draconomicon even gives a name to the organ that converts their weird diet into energy).

[SamBurke]

I was talking about if you were creating them in real life.

As to making the Chromatic DnD Dragons... Chlorine wouldn't be hard, ice could be done (Liquid nitrogen), and Lightning would merely require the user to have some sort of metal. Build up friction, or have that much electric energy in the dragon's body (they are pretty big)... It's highly implausible, but workable without magic.

[ThePhantom]

A classic example of a colossal creature is the Tarrasque. When its awake, it goes and eats everything in its path. The rest of the time, it goes dormant, to let the food supply regenerate. And there's only one, which with its traits makes sense, as two of them would eat too much for both to survive.

[Knaight]

A classic example of a colossal creature is the Tarrasque. When its awake, it goes and eats everything in its path. The rest of the time, it goes dormant, to let the food supply regenerate. And there's only one, which with its traits makes sense, as two of them would eat too much for both to survive.

Its a large animal, but if one assumes even an earth sized planet, there is a lot of area in which to live and eat, and a lot of energy going into plants and such if it is even remotely livable.

[Seb Wiers]

Actually, yes. Give them a gland of some sort of chemical (not strong in chemistry) that ignites upon touching air, give them a way to manufacture it, and one muscle to shoot it. Simple, easy, and SCIENTIFIC!

I'm not saying a natural creature can't produce flaming liquid; they can, and in some cases (sort of) do. (See the bombaredier beetle, or simple fermentation of grain into alcohol by yeast.)

I'm saying, to produce that much flaming liquid (they can use breath weapon every 10 minutes or so) they would have to ingest a HUGE amount of calories. Because that's how calories are measured- in terms of how much energy food releases when you burn it.
I'm talking the equivalent of drinking a five gallon barrel of oil each day, so some such.
Big environmental effects cost a lot of energy to produce via mundane methods. Ergo, breath weapons draw on magical power sources.

@ Solaris- yeah, that was exactly the point I was tying to make. :P

[Spiryt]

I'm not saying a natural creature can't produce flaming liquid; they can, and in some cases (sort of) do. (See the bombaredier beetle, or simple fermentation of grain into alcohol by yeast.)

I'm saying, to produce that much flaming liquid (they can use breath weapon every 10 minutes or so) they would have to ingest a HUGE amount of calories. Because that's how calories are measured- in terms of how much energy food releases when you burn it.
I'm talking the equivalent of drinking a five gallon barrel of oil each day, so some such.
Big environmental effects cost a lot of energy to produce via mundane methods. Ergo, breath weapons draw on magical power sources.

@ Solaris- yeah, that was exactly the point I was tying to make. :P

Meh, 5kg of Nutella every morning, and they're ready.

[SamBurke]

I'm saying, to produce that much flaming liquid (they can use breath weapon every 10 minutes or so) they would have to ingest a HUGE amount of calories.

But they aren't burning calories. They're squirting a liquid which bursts into fire. Also, do PCs or NPCs actually use this every 10 minutes? They do lots of talking, sleeping, eating, walking around, etc. And Dragons especially do lots of sleeping.

[nyarlathotep]

But they aren't burning calories. They're squirting a liquid which bursts into fire. Also, do PCs or NPCs actually use this every 10 minutes? They do lots of talking, sleeping, eating, walking around, etc. And Dragons especially do lots of sleeping.

At the risk of killing billions of catgirls, you have to have potential energy to combust at all and you would be burning calories by investing them in the liquid your body produces.

[SamBurke]

The idea was oxygen-ignited, so you wouldn't need to combust. Though, I'm not entirely sure if such an element exists, but, as mentioned before, there's always something similar to the bombadier beetle.

[Necroticplague]

The idea was oxygen-ignited, so you wouldn't need to combust. Though, I'm not entirely sure if such an element exists, but, as mentioned before, there's always something similar to the bombadier beetle.

Yes, the element does exist. Its called hydrogen. My personal theory behind red dragons was that they had an organ between their lungs and their mouth that produced hydrogen, so to breath fire, the simply spewed hydrogen gas, which ignites on contact with air. Hydrogen is also lighter than air, so it helps them fly.

[Shadowknight12]

As I see it, there are two "easy" ways of handling colossal creatures. Give them their own continent where everything is sized to their needs (humongous, sequoya-like trees are prevalent, along with Gargantuan or Colossal herbivores to feed from that, etc), or you make them extremely rare. You give them gigantic territories and let them roam far and wide so that they don't upset the ecosystem too much.

Of course, you have alternative ways of solving this issue. You have the Tarrasque solution that has been mentioned before, the "it's magic" explanation, the "differential metabolism" theory, etc.

[Solaris]

I was talking about if you were creating them in real life.

As to making the Chromatic DnD Dragons... Chlorine wouldn't be hard, ice could be done (Liquid nitrogen), and Lightning would merely require the user to have some sort of metal. Build up friction, or have that much electric energy in the dragon's body (they are pretty big)... It's highly implausible, but workable without magic.

Oh boy, we got us a biology major here. Chlorine gas is doable. Generating liquid nitrogen requires huge amounts of energy. Don't believe me? Your body's calorie requirements go up in hotter temperatures because you're actively cooling yourself down. It doesn't magically come into existence cold (it's all around you - recall our atmosphere is some seventy percent nitrogen), so it requires energy to cool down. Generating the friction required to spark a lightning bolt would require excessive effort on behalf of the dragon. See, ol' boy was completely right in that every speck of energy that goes into the breath weapon must come from the creature's metabolism. You can't make energy out of nothing. It has to come from somewhere.

Yes, the element does exist. Its called hydrogen. My personal theory behind red dragons was that they had an organ between their lungs and their mouth that produced hydrogen, so to breath fire, the simply spewed hydrogen gas, which ignites on contact with air. Hydrogen is also lighter than air, so it helps them fly.

It does what? Since when? Holy crap, reality changed when I wasn't looking! Quick, do cold objects still sink? The world's still flat, right? We're not suddenly orbiting around the sun, are we?
Research is the best way to not have me call you out on things even I know are wrong. A lot of compounds involving hydrogen are pyrophoric, but hydrogen itself is not. It just has a low spark point.

[Seb Wiers]

But they aren't burning calories. They're squirting a liquid which bursts into fire.

And where does that liquid come from? If they aren't directly ingesting it (a pretty big energy intake in its own right, since it amounts to drinking Greek fire, which obviously contains tons of chemical energy / calories) then they need to produce it. Producing combustible fuels takes energy (or feed stocks which contain stored energy, like coal or oil)- that's basic physics & chemistry. You don't get something from nothing.

Also, do PCs or NPCs actually use this every 10 minutes? They do lots of talking, sleeping, eating, walking around, etc. And Dragons especially do lots of sleeping.

They typically don't, but the rules imply they CAN. My fire-breath dragonborn actually uses his breath a fair bit in downtime to amuse small children, light his pipe, warm rocks for putting in his bedroll, and the like. He likes to show off how "dragony" he is, and the rules allow it.
Dragons probably do a lot of sleeping partly BECAUSE of the drain producing the energy released by their breath weapon places on them. The smarter ones probably conserve that energy by not using it so much, and therefore have more energy to devote to plotting and scheming. (But hey, my character has an Int of 8 and a Con of 20, so he's all "flame ON"!)

Of the breath weapons, some are pretty believable, some possible in an alternate form. In order of decreasing probability:
1) Acid. Totally do-able; almost all creatures produce acid as part of the digestive process. It would be metabolically expensive to produce large quantities of it and spew it around, but possible. Worth noting that Bombardier Beetles basically store acid and mix it with another material in a gland when they want to spray; the resulting mixture gets very hot (not uncommon when you put acid on something) and releases gas (also not uncommon); the pressure of the gas shoots boiling acid at the target.
2) Poison. Also seen in nature, though not as chlorine gas. I'm betting an aeresolized toxic compound of chlorine would be good enough.
4) Fire- some sort of organically produced Greek fire (likely a blend of phosphorus and oils) sprayed out by a gland is kinda possible, given you can meet the dietary requirements. Add some heat from a bombardier beetle style co-axial spray, and yeah, you could get fire.
5) Electricity. Can be produced using clusters specialized cells that stack ion transport effects to build up a charge; that's what electric eels do.
However, blasting it out as a breath weapon is... not how electricity works. An aura or touch attack would be more realistic.
6) Cold. This is a tough one. Liquid nitrogen can't be produced via biological process. Maybe liquid carbon dioxide could, if the creature had a high pressure vessel as an internal organ. Or maybe the creature produces a natural equivalent of freon, and sprays the enemy down with that; the evaporating oragno-freon cools the target, just like when a crook wants to bust open a lock using air conditioner refill.

Note that all of the above impose a pretty large metabolic demand on the user; chemical synthesis of any sort is energy intensive. That's one reason poisonous creatures tend to be stupid; they don't have the metabolic energy left for large brains. (They also don't so much need them to survive, of course...)

[Zaydos]

The old stand-by for scientific dragons (by which I mean something in the movie The Flight of Dragons that the Discovery channel/Animal Planet later used) has them eat a substance rich in hydrogen gas and store the gas in a special bladder that they use to fly. When they use fire breath they expel a portion of this gas and light it with an electric spark generating organ in the roof of their mouth.

[Seb Wiers]

The old stand-by for scientific dragons (by which I mean something in the movie The Flight of Dragons that the Discovery channel/Animal Planet later used) has them eat a substance rich in hydrogen gas and store the gas in a special bladder that they use to fly. When they use fire breath they expel a portion of this gas and light it with an electric spark generating organ in the roof of their mouth.

For it to actually help them fly, it would have to be stored in very large, very fragile bladders. You'd have something more like an airborn jellyfish than a dragon.

For "realism", I like Terry Pratchet's dragons. The only (non magical) one that could fly pointed his spear-like tail out straight, and breathed hard. He took off like a rocket, flying backwords at super-sonic speed. He ate coal, and had a mouth lined with organic silicates (to withstand the heat of his breath).

[jseah]

A flammable liquid combined with Iron Sulphide (pyrophoric material).
Heck, Iron-Sulphur clusters exist in your mitochrondria and ethanol is a common biological product.
Gonna take alot of genetic engineering to get it though.


Chlorine, like you say, is easy and deadly (1000ppm lethal to humans). So is cyanide (270ppm kills humans).
Got to have some way of not making it kill the dragon as well though. Which isn't really that simple since the aforementioned Iron-Sulphur cluster in mitochrondria gets royally messed up when exposed to cyanide (it sticks and doesn't come off)
You can take that away, but that means dragons stop needing to breathe. (and have to eat alot more. A good side effect is that anaerobic respiration can be used to produce ethanol)


Lightning is only really viable underwater. Electric Eels and the Manta Ray do use electric organs and biobatteries. It's not going to jump air gaps however. You'll need kilovolts to jump even a few centimeters.
The dragon could spit some kind of electrolyte solution to form a conducting path through the air, even then, it's not going to be deadly.

[Zaydos]

Enough on dragon breath weapons, back to the actual subject.

It depends upon how much you want their diet to be magic dependant. If 80% of their intake is magic that makes a big difference. In D&D halflings eat 1/4th as much as a human (horses eat 3 times as much) so expanding that progression a colossal creature would only eat 256 times as much as a human (or 81 if we went with the lower horse increase). I don't really think these numbers are realistic, but going with the logic of the system these creatures would eat as much as 256 humans (or 64 horses). So look at the range of say a tiger and multiply the area by 64, or 27 (you have two choices for progression). At that point it eats as much from that area as a single tiger would (which means they can have overlapping territories).

Biologically sound? Not really. D&D looks at the square-cube law and laughs in general. Caloric requirements to breathe fire and fly? It ignores them.

[hamishspence]

Blue whales, the bigger mesosaurs, and truly gigantic dinosaurs would be gargantuan size I don't think anything living has ever gotten to colossal size in real life.

There are a few dinosaurs estimated (based on very limited information) to approach 125 tons (the minimum for Colossal.)

The blue whale and bowhead both commonly exceed this.

If using the "length to base of tail" (rather than length to tip of tail) that's normal for quadrupeds, the blue whale may reach the 64 ft minimum, and several dinosaurs may, too.

Amphicoelias- using the absolute maximum estimates (135 short tons, 200 ft long)- is the best example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphicoelias

most of the other big sauropods that approach that nose to base of tail length, are going to be too light.

Mind you- given that Colossal base size starts at 30x30 ft- they might be very cramped on a 20x20 ft gargantuan base if statted that way.

[SirDalyus]

For "realism", I like Terry Pratchet's dragons. The only (non magical) one that could fly pointed his spear-like tail out straight, and breathed hard. He took off like a rocket, flying backwords at super-sonic speed. He ate coal, and had a mouth lined with organic silicates (to withstand the heat of his breath).

In the discworld series all swamp dragons could fly and breath fire. The one you thinking of, Errol , was special as he hovered like a rocket. The reason the dragonsl could breath fire was their diet of hydrocarbons and alkanols, along with thier abilty to change their digestive system with latent magic to extract as much flammable material as possible. The big dragon that turned up in guards, guards was interesting, as to breath fire it let out a cloud of finely crushed coal soaked in ethanol, and used an electric spark to light it. Would that be viable in a real life scene?