[D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More

[Seerow]

Well, at least it isn't splitting, which has the same cost as speed but gives you an extra attack for every successful attack you make! In other words, you can up to double your attacks. I don't have the supplement it's from, though, so I don't know exactly how it works.

Yeah splitting is awesome, and ranged only.

Any suggestions for things that seem overbalanced or need to be changed?

[Jjeinn-tae]

I've liked this so far, though with masterwork relating with special materials... I'm assuming that you use the general special materials are automatically masterwork; do they get the bonus slots for it?

[Gideon Falcon]

Splitting is a ranged only ability? Seriously? Wow. That actually negates one of the major premises of a MWF build I once made.

[Seerow]

I've liked this so far, though with masterwork relating with special materials... I'm assuming that you use the general special materials are automatically masterwork; do they get the bonus slots for it?

Yes, you get the benefits of masterwork in addition to the bonus from the materials. So if you have a Masterwork Adamantine Longsword, you have 5 bonus upgrade slots to play with.

The intent is, you get the basic weapon, it's about on par with what it normally is, maybe slightly stronger. You get masterwork around level 2, and instead of a generic +1 to hit, you can customize your weapon/armor a bit. Then around level 5-6 special materials start coming online, and you can make your gear truly your own, with further customization/power potential. Beyond that point, the focus should be more on the character and their abilities than the gear.

Splitting is a ranged only ability? Seriously? Wow. That actually negates one of the major premises of a MWF build I once made.

Hah, yeah. I believe it even only applies to bows and crossbows. It's out of Champions of Ruin.

On the upside, while it killed the MWF build you made, it makes a Arrow Demon with 2 splitting bows downright scary.

[Gideon Falcon]

Just a side note, the thing with the composite bows is that they are unrealistic. They have worse range than normal bows, because they are designed to be on the same level. Composite bows are supposed to be a level up from normal ones, which is why they cost so much more. In real life, unless I am mistaken, composite bows have a higher range than normal ones, as in normal 3.5 core.

[Seerow]

Just a side note, the thing with the composite bows is that they are unrealistic. They have worse range than normal bows, because they are designed to be on the same level. Composite bows are supposed to be a level up from normal ones, which is why they cost so much more. In real life, unless I am mistaken, composite bows have a higher range than normal ones, as in normal 3.5 core.

I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that is part of what made the D&D weapons borked in the first place, two weapons that are supposed to be the same proficiency level, yet one is strictly superior to the other.

I suppose I could remove composite bows altogether, and make a note that composite bows are masterwork bows that pick up an extra range and str to damage quality.

[Gideon Falcon]

That works much better, being what the composite bows were originally supposed to be. They were basically the same weapon, but made better. That's why they were the same proficiency level, but the composite bows racked their prices up fast in order to apply any significant strength bonus.

[Seerow]

That works much better, being what the composite bows were originally supposed to be. They were basically the same weapon, but made better. That's why they were the same proficiency level, but the composite bows racked their prices up fast in order to apply any significant strength bonus.

I updated to that effect.

I also changed the shortbow slightly, bumping its damage up to the same as the Longbow, with a higher crit damage, to compensate the Longbow's longer range.

I figured if we're worrying about realism, that a shortbow with more range than a longbow makes no sense, but the shortbow packing more potential punch in closer quarters while the longbow has more range makes a bit more sense. Not a whole lot more, but longbow/shortbow is another case where them being the same proficiency category makes it hard to differentiate them meaningfully/realistically. I'm almost tempted to make shortbow a simple weapon, but I get the feeling that's even more unrealistic.

[The Black Staff]

You could totally use a system like this to make a better magic system... hm...

Anyhoo, this looks cool.

[Cieyrin]

Hey, neat system that I think does mostly what you claim it does, that is better balance out weapons against one another according to weapon category.

I say mostly, as there are a couple of things in the system when you converted the core weapons that are off or just don't plain work. I spent a good couple hours going through the custom weapon system to see how you came to the end results that you did and it tends to work out as intended. There are a couple things here and there that are kinda fugly, though, as my raw data can show (which I'll spoiler, since it's pretty extensive).

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Light Simple Melee (2)
Dagger: d4 x2 10' Piercing or Slashing (Concealable [.5], Throwable [1], Extra Damage Type [.5] = 2)
Punching Dagger: d6 x3 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 2)
Spiked Gauntlet: d6 x2 Piercing or Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1] = 2)
Light Mace: d6 x3 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 2)
Sickle: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 2)

One-Handed Simple Melee (3)
Club: d8 x2 10' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Throwable [1] = 3)
Heavy Mace: d8 x3 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 3)
Morningstar: d8 x2 Bludgeoning and Piercing (Extra Damage Type (And) [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2] = 3)
Javelin/Shortspear*: d6 x2 30' Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Throwable [1], Increase Range [1] = 3)

Two-Handed Simple Melee (4)
Longspear*: d6 x3 Piercing (Set [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 4)
Quarterstaff: d6/d6 x2 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Monk Weapon [1], Double Weapon [2] = 4)
Spear*: d8 x3 Piercing (Set [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Increase Damage x2(d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 4)

Ranged Simple
Heavy Crossbow: d10 19-20/x2 80' Piercing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 4)
Light Crossbow: d8 19-20/x2 100' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Range [1] = 4)
Sling*: d6 x2 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Strength to Damage [1] = 4)

Light Martial Melee (3)
Throwing Axe: d6 x3 10' Slashing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Throwable [1] = 3)
Light Hammer: d6 x2 30' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6), Throwable [1], Increase Range [1] = 3)
Handaxe: d8 x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 3)
Kukri*: d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 3)
Light Pick*: d6 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 3)
Sap: d8 x3 Bludgeoning (Subdual Only [0], Increase Damage x2 (1d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 3)
Short Sword: d8 19-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (1d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 3)

One-Handed Martial Melee (4)
Battleaxe: d10 x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod [1] = 4)
Flail: d8 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 4)
Longsword: d10 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 4)
Heavy Pick*: d8 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 4)
Rapier*: d6 18-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Scimitar*: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing ((Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Trident*: d8 x2 10' Piercing (+2 Crit Confirm [.5], Set [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Throwable [1] = 4)
Warhammer: d10 x3 Bldugeoning (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 4)

Two-Handed Martial Melee (5)
Falchion*: 2d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 6)
Heavy Flail: d10 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 5)
Glaive: d10 x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Greataxe: d12 x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (d12) [4], Increase Crit Mod x3 [1] = 5)
Greatclub: 2d6 x3 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Mod x3 [1] = 5)
Greatsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 5)
Guisarme*: 2d4 x3 Slashing (Tripper [.5], +2 Trip [.5], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Halberd*: d10 x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 5)
Lance: d8 x3 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Mounted Charge [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Ranseur: 2d4 x3 Piercing (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Scythe: 2d4 x4 Slashing or Piercing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 5)

Ranged Martial
Longbow: d8 x3 90' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Range [1] = 4)
Shortbow*: d8 x3 70' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Mounted Archer [1] = 4)

Light Exotic Melee (6)
Kama: d8 x4 Slashing (Tripper [.5], +2 Trip [.5]Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Monk [1] = 6)
Nunchaku: 2d6 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] = 6)
Sai*: d6 19-20/x3 Bludgeoning (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Monk [1] = 6)
Siangham: 2d4 x3 30' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Throwable [1], Increase Range [1], Monk [1] = 6)

One-Handed Exotic Melee (7)
Bastard Sword: 2d6 19-20/x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2] = 7)
Dwarven Waraxe: d10 19-20/x4 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 7)

Two-Handed Exotic Melee (8)
Orc Double Axe: d10/d10 19-20/x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Meteor Hammer: 2d4 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], +4 Trip [1], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Finessable [1], Flexible Reach [2] = 8)
Dire Flail: d12/d12 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x4 (d12) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) (1), Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Gnome Hooked Hammer*: d6/d6 19-20/x4 Bludgeoning or Piercing (Tripper [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod  (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Two-Bladed Sword: d10/d10 19-20/x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Dwarven Urgrosh*: d8/d8 19-20/x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Minotaur Greathammer: 2d6 19-20/x4 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod  (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 8)
Goliath Greataxe: 3d6 x4 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (1d12) [4], Heavy Damage (3d6) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 8)

Ranged Exotic
Hand Crossbow: d8 19-20/x2 80' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], One Handed [2], Easy Loading [3] = 8)
Heavy Repeating Crossbow: d10 19-20/x3 80' Piercing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Repeating [2] = 8)
Light Repeating Crossbow: d8 19-20/x2 100' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Increase Range [1], Repeating [2] = 8)
Greatbow: 2d6 x4 90' Piercing (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Increase Range [1] = 7)
Arbalest: d12 18-20/x2 100' Piercing (Increase Damage x4 (d12) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Increase Range [1] = 8)
Shuriken: d4 19-20/x4 30' Piercing (Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Increase Range [1], Monk [1] = 6)

Sword-Chucks: d8/d8 19-20/x2 Slashing (+2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], +4 Crit Confirm [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1], Finessable [1], Flexible Reach [2], Double Weapon [2] = 10) EMTM
Whip: d4 x2 Slashing (Nonlethal only [0], +2 Disarm (.5), Tripper (.5), Flexible Reach [2x3=6] = 7) EOM
Whip-Dagger: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (+2 Disarm (.5), Tripper (.5), Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Flexible Reach [2x3=6] = 9) EMOM
Fullblade: 2d8 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Heavy Damage (2d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1] = 8) ETM
Bolas: d8 19-20/x2 30' Bludgeoning (Nonlethal Only [0], +2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increased Range [1], Strength to Damage [1] = 6) ER
Talenta Sharrash: d10 19-20/x4 Slashing (+4 Crit Confirm [1], +2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Reach[1], Increased Crit Range (19-20) [1x2=2], Increased Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increased Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 10) EMTM
Halfling War Sling: d6 x4 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Strength to Damage [1] = 6) ER

The weapons marked with asterisks is where things go astray, either by something skipped or something being off. Some of this is just my personal opinion on how much things should cost or tweaking weapons, as I found that a lot of exotics tweaked out their crit ranges, as-if you just didn't know where to put points by that time, which very well may be. Let me get into the first bits and then see if I can organize the data to be more legible.

The first thing is on the work of Set, that is, setting your weapon against a charge for double damage. Frankly, I've never seen anyone ever do it, even if it is neat and historically accurate. Generally, when there's two groups at charge range from one another, it kinda devolves down to who has initiative and can charge first, bringing the hurt to the other guys before they can do the same to you, rather than waiting for their charge. It leads me to thinking it shouldn't be worth a full point but half of one, considering that the closest parallel, Mounted Charger, which is held by lances, actually happens on any sort of basis. The affected weapons (halberd, longspear, spear and trident) I gave +2 Crit Confirm to make up for the gap, except halberd, which needed the half point for something else. I see it as an Impaling effect as my reasoning for going that way.

Next bit is a short thing on Shortspears and Javelins, as I don't see why you have them separate in your system, as they're identical stat-wise. The difference in Core is only that shortspears were shorter ranged but didn't take a penalty for using 'em in melee, which doesn't exist in your system. I'd just as well get rid of shortspears and just call them all javelins.

Next on the chopping block is slings. I have no idea how you came to their stats, as they have twice as many points to them than they should, going by your system. My only guess is they got the two-handed weapon bonus, in which case Strength to Damage would be instead Throwable. I rather favor slings, personally, and find that d20 tends to look unfavorably on them in general, when they're much more dangerous than most would admit, considering people generally think of bows in high fantasy.

Nextly, we have kukris and light picks. They're fine as-is, it's more to do with how crit range and modifier modifications are applied, which is internally inconsistent with how damage is increased. Throughout my data, I considered each modification a separate feature, which is as follows: Increase Crit Threat (19-20) = 1 slot, Increase Crit Threat (18-20) = 2 slots, Increase Crit Mod (x3) = 1 slot, Increase Crit Mod (x4) = 1 slot. When adding them on, just make sure you have the prerequisites and when applying both, total threat range and mod to determine which gets doubled. /OCD

In martial one-handers, Heavy Picks as you presented are identical to Light Picks, leaving them a point short, which should probably increase damage another step so you have a reason to use them, as otherwise, you'd just finesse Light Picks.

Another major upset is with rapiers, scimitars and falchions. They all go over budget in points from adding finessable to the mix. If you reduce damage to make up for this cost, rapiers and scimitars are identical stat-wise to kukris. I'm not sure how to rectify this, other than reducing the cost of Crit Threat (18-20) to 1 slot, though that leads to other quirks, especially in exotic weapons.

Simple error: Guisarmes had a bonus to trip but couldn't be used to trip. Just a forgotten note, as there's points to do so.

Halberds got the squeeze bad in this system, which is unfortunate, given how awesome halberds are supposed to be and they get further nerfed. My change to Set's value allowed halberds to get back their choice of piercing or slashing damage, which should be there, as any medieval history buff should be able to tell you that a halberd has 4 striking surfaces: The tip, the blade, the spike at the base of the halberd and the inner point on the blade, which can be used to pull back towards the user, which is where the tripping the Core version has comes in. A Masterwork version would probably gain Tripper, +2 Trip and Reach, I'd imagine, provided one didn't just jump to a Dwarven Warpike, which is what a Halberd should have been.

The change with shortbows, since I don't see a reason they should be that much more deadly than longbows when it comes to hitting somebody in the kidney, is bringing up the fact that you can actually shoot a shortbow from horseback, something that can't be done with an unwieldy longbow, greatbow, crossbow or any other non-throwing weapon. Hence, why I traded out the crit increase for a new ability, Mounted Archer.

The sai had too many points, so I dropped Throwable from it, as Mulletmanalive suggested that sais aren't very aerodynamic, anyways. I think it's due to forgetting the cost multiplication that increasing both sides of the crit capability incurs.

Gnome Hooked Hammers lost the trip bonus, due to the extra damage type being forgotten. I checked to see if there was something special about double weapons getting separate damage types but didn't see anything of the sort, so that's where we are there.

The Urgrosh had a major cost overrun with the crit mod, so that got removed. They also lost the Tripper bonus, which was never part of Urgroshes, as the weapon's design is aimed at using the axe side mostly and using the spear for finishing downed enemies quickly. I'm not sure where it became an implement of tripping, really. It's back down to 8 points from 10, which benefited from the Set cost reduction as well.

The rest of the data is just tweaks to weapons, like creating specifically heavy and light repeating crossbows, making all hand-crossbows easy reload (pretty distinctive there and has a bit of precedence with Hand Crossbow Focus, anyways), heavily redesigning the Greatbow to be a better longbow and leaving room for the composite (aka masterwork) version. I also through the first new weapon I made using the system, based on the great crossbow (which I just call an arbalest, since that sounds cooler and breaks with the 'adjective' bow naming convention ).

The last block is recreating additional weapons, including whips and bolas, which work fine in your system without tweaks. The end codes are just defining what kind of weapon they are for how many points they have. The Whip-Dagger and Sharrash are masterworks, like Sword-chucks, so that they could work as defined, pre-errata, even.

My last thing of note is I'm curious how ammunition works in your system, as that's half the fun of being an archer, is being able to have different ammo for different situations.

Despite the overanalysis above, I'm still highly impressed with your weapon system and I'll be tooling around with it to see what other weapons I can bring over from other source books (Planar Handbook, Secrets of Sarlona and Arms and Equipment Guide, I'm looking at you ). Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Seerow]

Despite the overanalysis above, I'm still highly impressed with your weapon system and I'll be tooling around with it to see what other weapons I can bring over from other source books (Planar Handbook, Secrets of Sarlona and Arms and Equipment Guide, I'm looking at you ). Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

I appreciate the overanalysis. I apparently messed up on my mental math in several places, and I appreciate having someone double check my work.

I'll give a more in depth response and likely updates once I've had time to digest all of that. It'll prolly be later tonight.


Also any thought on the special materials and how they measure up, or the masterwork armor properties? I recognize those are a bigger departure from how things normally work, so may not be as interesting, but I'd appreciate some commentary on those.

[Cieyrin]

I appreciate the overanalysis. I apparently messed up on my mental math in several places, and I appreciate having someone double check my work.

I'll give a more in depth response and likely updates once I've had time to digest all of that. It'll prolly be later tonight.


Also any thought on the special materials and how they measure up, or the masterwork armor properties? I recognize those are a bigger departure from how things normally work, so may not be as interesting, but I'd appreciate some commentary on those.

I'll see what I can do with armor and materials, as the custom weapon list made it fairly easy to lay out what to look at. Just from a brief analsis, masterworking seems able to make armor check penalty a non-issue if you invest enough slots into it, given Masterwork Full Plate with all the slots thrown at reducing ACP completely removes it. I'll futz about with some of the published exotic armors to see how play with your system, too, or at least see if I can go from core to them.

[Seerow]

I'll see what I can do with armor and materials, as the custom weapon list made it fairly easy to lay out what to look at. Just from a brief analsis, masterworking seems able to make armor check penalty a non-issue if you invest enough slots into it, given Masterwork Full Plate with all the slots thrown at reducing ACP completely removes it. I'll futz about with some of the published exotic armors to see how play with your system, too, or at least see if I can go from core to them.

Yeah, the exotic armors will probably end up being stronger almost universally, like the exotic weapons wound up being. I'd be more interested in if anything seems out of place, or too strong relative to the others, etc.


Anyway, back to your other post:

Reading over your list, it seems that you highlighted not just ones I went overboard on, but also ones with the set against charge property that you modified. I'm going to just pull the ones you have highlighted out of the list:


Changed due to set:

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Longspear*: d6 x3 Piercing (Set [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 4)
Spear*: d8 x3 Piercing (Set [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Increase Damage x2(d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 4)
Scimitar*: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing ((Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Trident*: d8 x2 10' Piercing (+2 Crit Confirm [.5], Set [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Throwable [1] = 4)
Guisarme*: 2d4 x3 Slashing (Tripper [.5], +2 Trip [.5], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Halberd*: d10 x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 5)

Wrong Point Values:

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Sling*: d6 x2 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Strength to Damage [1] = 4)
Rapier*: d6 18-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Scimitar*: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing ((Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Falchion*: 2d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 6)

Sling: I messed up pretty badly there, and went pretty arbitrary since it was the only real weapon of its type. I also didn't realize slings normally get str to damage, so didn't account for that. Redesigning it to fit its limits as a simple weapon (thus only 2 slots) would probably be d4x2 30ft Bludgeoning (increase range x1, str to damage = 2)

Rapier: I'm not sure how I messed this one up. You're right that dropping it down to a d4 makes it basically a kukri clone, I guess that's the problem with 1-handed finessible weapons, light weapons basically have finessible for free, so spending your 1 bonus slot on finessible makes you identical to the light weapon. The rapier would still have the ability to wield two handed technically, but that's kind of silly. I'm kind of tempted to bump rapier down to exotic so it can be made stronger, alternatively make finessible only .5 slots, so that it at least gets some minor benefit, if not the full extra damage die but do you have any other ideas?

Scimitar: Same as Rapier

Falchion: Another one that it looks like I just forgot to add finessible. Did I get any of these right?

Unsure Why Flagged:

Spoiler

Show

Kukri*: d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 3)
Light Pick*: d6 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 3)
Heavy Pick*: d8 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 4)
Shortbow*: d8 x3 70' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Mounted Archer [1] = 4)
Sai*: d6 19-20/x3 Bludgeoning (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Monk [1] = 6)
Dwarven Urgrosh*: d8/d8 19-20/x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Double Weapon [2] = 8)

These are flagged with your *, but they add up to where they should be as far as I can tell.

Okay, that's just from going down the list. I'm guessing your post explains why the ones I was uncertain on are flagged. Let's see!



First point: Setting a weapon against a charge costs too much. I can agree with that, I didn't really think about it in those terms (also added it before I decided to include half slot costs, and didn't think to include it in the reduction). Personally, I use it more than you seem to think is the norm, but that is likely just me, especially in any sort of optimized play (or anything where there is decent levels of mobility or pounce available). I think reducing the cost is perfectly reasonable in this case though.

Second Point: Shortspears and Javelins. Yeah, I was actually looking out for things like that that wound up identical to separate them... somehow I missed this one. You say eliminate the shortspear, I'm curious if there's anything that could be done to make the shortpspear different? Like make the shortspear only 10' range, but can be set against a charge and has +2 to crit confirms or something.

Third Point: You don't like how the crit costs are presented. That can be fixed easily enough, I figured the way I had it would be easier than having to add a bit explaining prerequisites and whatnot. At least that explains why those two weapons were flagged.

Fourth Point: Finessible One-Handers suck. They are all over budget or the same as their light weapon counterpart. Being one handed does have some benefit (can be used two handed, can be used to power attack) which differentiates them... but not enough. As mentioned in the spoiler above, a potential fix is making finessible only half a slot, so while they are similar, a rapier might have say a +2 bonus to disarming, or a scimitar may have a +2 crit confirm. Not quite as nice as an extra damage die, but at least it's something to differentiate. Alternatively, those weapons could become exotic, but that has other implications.

Fifth Point: Didn't give guisearms the ability to trip. Whoops.

Sixth Point: New ability-Mounted Archer. I like it, it is simple, clean, and makes sense. One problem I do have is wondering if this restriction currently exists? Also is it worth a full slot even if it does? I mean, I understand for realism purposes, it makes more sense for the shortbow to not be more deadly, but for balance I don't see that it is actually worth that much.

7th Point: Exotic Weapons overbalanced. Okay, a few of those I was unsure of got explained here. Apparently in your data you had already fixed them while flagging them.

-Sai: Losing throwing seems fine
-Urgosh: Again, your fix seems fine.
-Gnome Hammer: You're probably right that I didn't account for that, and may be part of what went over for the urgosh as well.

8th Point: All Hand Crossbows become easy loading. I don't necessarily think that is needed. I can see a hand crossbow that is as difficult to reload as a typical crossbow, and if someone really wants to put up with that (or blow the feat rather than weapon slots) that should be an option for them. While your tweaks work there, and simplify down the options a fair bit, I kind of prefer it the way it is, where there's more choice.





tl;dr: Thanks for all the in depth dissection. I agree with the majority of it, and will be making several updates to the OP. The major points of contention are:
-Finessible One Handers, what to do with them
-Shortspears vs javelins
-Mounted Archery ability
-Hand Crossbows all having easy loading.

[Seerow]

Okay, OP is updated. There is now a table for Masterwork upgrades that includes the composite bows, swordchucks, and the masterwork weapons provided by Cieyrin. I'm pretty sure I fixed all of the errors Cieyrin pointed out, and I decided to go with the .5 cost for making a finessible weapon.

I didn't change the shortbow as Cieyrin suggested just yet, because I'm not sold that making only shortbows usable while mounted is the right answer here. While it makes them different in a realistic way, it's not a particularly great advantage, and is more a stealth nerf to other bows than a meaningful benefit for the shortbow.

Perhaps if the shortbow gained a property that negates the normal penalty, (-4 while moving -8 while running) for shooting on horseback would be in order, as that's a benefit to them rather than a nerf to others. I'm still not sure if it's worth it, but I guess I could see it having use in some niche build, with the longbow being the normal go-to weapon. In fact I'll probably edit this new property in after posting this.

[Cieyrin]

Wrong Point Values:
Sling*: d6 x2 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Strength to Damage [1] = 4)

Sling: I messed up pretty badly there, and went pretty arbitrary since it was the only real weapon of its type. I also didn't realize slings normally get str to damage, so didn't account for that. Redesigning it to fit its limits as a simple weapon (thus only 2 slots) would probably be d4x2 30ft Bludgeoning (increase range x1, str to damage = 2)

Having thought about it some more, another solution that I've used previously is to treat slings as throwing weapons, like javelins. It's what they really are in actuality, too, as the sling acts as an arm extension and is basically just a throwing enhancer, not a projectile weapon like bows and crossbows. Going along those lines, we could count slings as one-handed throwing weapons, which has 3 slots, and have it buy Throwable, and Increase Range x2, which puts its stats at d4 x2 50' Bludgeoning, which are what they are in Core and gets Strength to damage by default. A fringe benefit of this is slings will get all the throwing boosts in the game already, too, which I think is not a bad thing either way.

Rapier*: d6 18-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Scimitar*: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Falchion*: 2d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 6)

Rapier: I'm not sure how I messed this one up. You're right that dropping it down to a d4 makes it basically a kukri clone, I guess that's the problem with 1-handed finessible weapons, light weapons basically have finessible for free, so spending your 1 bonus slot on finessible makes you identical to the light weapon. The rapier would still have the ability to wield two handed technically, but that's kind of silly. I'm kind of tempted to bump rapier down to exotic so it can be made stronger, alternatively make finessible only .5 slots, so that it at least gets some minor benefit, if not the full extra damage die but do you have any other ideas?

Scimitar: Same as Rapier

Falchion: Another one that it looks like I just forgot to add finessible. Did I get any of these right?

Hmm, I'm not sure if either solution is terribly good, though I suppose that all the other finessable one-handers or greater are exotics, so maybe there's good precedent for that. Given that rogues and bards, the classes in core that use rapiers primarily, specifically get proficiency, changing it up to exotic wouldn't hurt those classes. Let's see what results we get by upping those weapons to exotic:

Rapier: d8 18-20/x2 Piercing (+4 Crit Confirm [1], Finessable [1], Increase Damage x2 (1d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 7)
Scimitar: d8 18-20/x2 Slashing (+4 Crit Confirm [1], Finessable [1], Increase Damage x2 (1d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 7)

Going through the math, it actually works out better if Finessable stays a full point, which also makes some gameist sense, as being able to change your attack stat can be pretty powerful. As for falchions, why not drop finessable and leave that to elven courtblades? Falchions in 3.5 seemed primarily used by orcs, who aren't exactly known for their grace in any case. If people want a non-exotic finessable two-hander, I'd think leaving it in masterwork territory would make the most sense.

Unsure Why Flagged:

Spoiler

Show

Kukri*: d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 3)
Light Pick*: d6 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 3)
Heavy Pick*: d8 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 4)
Shortbow*: d8 x3 70' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Mounted Archer [1] = 4)
Sai*: d6 19-20/x3 Bludgeoning (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Monk [1] = 6)
Dwarven Urgrosh*: d8/d8 19-20/x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Double Weapon [2] = 8)

These are flagged with your *, but they add up to where they should be as far as I can tell.

Yeah, I suppose that was a bit confusing, since these were the post-fixing results for the most part. Kukri and Light Pick were to illustrate the way slots were used with crit boosting.

First point: Setting a weapon against a charge costs too much. I can agree with that, I didn't really think about it in those terms (also added it before I decided to include half slot costs, and didn't think to include it in the reduction). Personally, I use it more than you seem to think is the norm, but that is likely just me, especially in any sort of optimized play (or anything where there is decent levels of mobility or pounce available). I think reducing the cost is perfectly reasonable in this case though.

I don't know, I've futzed with the set ability since D&D Basic and never seen it come up. Maybe I just don't play with the right groups or have played a proper war campaign, where a spear hedge makes plenty of sense to stave off cavalry...

Second Point: Shortspears and Javelins. Yeah, I was actually looking out for things like that that wound up identical to separate them... somehow I missed this one. You say eliminate the shortspear, I'm curious if there's anything that could be done to make the shortspear different? Like make the shortspear only 10' range, but can be set against a charge and has +2 to crit confirms or something.

Hmm, drawing on 300 and allowing a spear and shield build to be viable does seem a bit appealing. Yeah, I could definitely see that.

Shortspear: d6 x2 10' Piercing (+2 Crit Confirm [.5], Set [.5], Damage Increase (d6) [1], Throwable [1] = 3)

Fourth Point: Finessible One-Handers suck. They are all over budget or the same as their light weapon counterpart. Being one handed does have some benefit (can be used two handed, can be used to power attack) which differentiates them... but not enough. As mentioned in the spoiler above, a potential fix is making finessible only half a slot, so while they are similar, a rapier might have say a +2 bonus to disarming, or a scimitar may have a +2 crit confirm. Not quite as nice as an extra damage die, but at least it's something to differentiate. Alternatively, those weapons could become exotic, but that has other implications.

As I said above, making non-light melees finessable seems like exotic territory. It hurts the full BABers, especially swashbucklers, but they got other toys they can play with and swashes are a dipping class for Daring Outlaws, anyways.

Sixth Point: New ability-Mounted Archer. I like it, it is simple, clean, and makes sense. One problem I do have is wondering if this restriction currently exists? Also is it worth a full slot even if it does? I mean, I understand for realism purposes, it makes more sense for the shortbow to not be more deadly, but for balance I don't see that it is actually worth that much.

For where the restriction exists, they specifically mention it in the bow descriptions. Of the four bows in Core, longbows are the only ones that can't be used mounted, no idea why composite longbows can (laminated horn is more compact, maybe? ). No mention in crossbows or slings, though, but I can't imagine trying to load a non-hand crossbow mounted, since you usually need a winch or use your leg muscles to help reset the crossbow for firing. With my above suggestion for treating slings as thrown weapons, that neatly puts it with other thrown weapons, which are all arm strength, anyways.

As for cost, perhaps I was a bit overzealous with the cost, as, while a powerful strategy, enabling Mounted Archery is about as powerful as Setting is compared to Mounted Combat, so making it .5 points makes sense. What to do with the other .5 points, I have no clue, as the only ability that makes sense, +2 Crit Confirm, back pedals into making shortbows x4 crit again. Maybe cut Range Increase to 10'/.5 would work for granularity and not change anything majorly for anyone else, so shortbows would be:

Shortbow: d8 x3 80' Piercing (Mounted Archer [.5], Increase Range [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 4)

7th Point: Exotic Weapons overbalanced. Okay, a few of those I was unsure of got explained here. Apparently in your data you had already fixed them while flagging them.

-Sai: Losing throwing seems fine
-Urgrosh: Again, your fix seems fine.
-Gnome Hammer: You're probably right that I didn't account for that, and may be part of what went over for the urgrosh as well.

As above, my data was partially post-fix, so I apologize again for the confusion.

8th Point: All Hand Crossbows become easy loading. I don't necessarily think that is needed. I can see a hand crossbow that is as difficult to reload as a typical crossbow, and if someone really wants to put up with that (or blow the feat rather than weapon slots) that should be an option for them. While your tweaks work there, and simplify down the options a fair bit, I kind of prefer it the way it is, where there's more choice.

As I said in the original post, that after the Urgrosh were just tweaks that I thought made sense to the ranged weapons. In Core, there's practically no reason to use a hand crossbow when you could use a light crossbow, even if you got it free as a rogue, as the damage and range were nickels and dimes in comparison. Making them all easy loading gives you an actual reason to use one, as you're otherwise a feat behind those using a light crossbow to get free reloads, which is too costly in archery, with the overburdened feat trees and all.

Either way, you can feel free to ignore the ranged weapon tweaks if you wish, as what you had works just fine. Just my take on how I'd have exotic ranged weapons work stat-wise, take them or leave them as you wish.

Now some new exotics, first a correction, as, while I was looking at Secrets of Sarlona and the spinning swords specifically, I realized that a) whip daggers and spinning swords are practically identical, except for whip weirdness, and b) I forgot to make whips and whip daggers finessable. Also, when trying to implement my fix, I think triple cost of reach on one handers is just too expensive to be actually used. I'd recommend making it double, so it's still expensive but not so much that to gain it that it's to the exclusion of everything else in the weapon.

Whip: d4 x2 Slashing (Nonlethal only [0], +4 Disarm (1), +2 Trip [.5], Tripper (.5), Finessable [1], Flexible Reach [2x2=4] = 7) EOM
Whip-Dagger: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (+4 Disarm (1), +2 Trip [.5], Tripper (.5), Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1], Finessable [1], Flexible Reach [2x2=4] = 9) EMOM

Speaking of Secrets, here's the conversions for everything, plus any new abilities that come up.

Light Simple Melee (2)
Steel Flute: d4 x2 10' Bludgeoning (Nonthreatening [.5], Battle Instrument [.5], Throwable [1] = 2)

Light Exotic Melee (6)
Monk's Cane: d8 x3 10' Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Nonthreatening [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Monk [1], Throwable [1] =6)
Cutting Wheel: d8 19-20/x2 Piercing and Slashing (+4 Disarm [1], Extra Damage Type (And) [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] = 6)

One-Handed Exotic Melee (7)
Hook Sword: d10 19-20/x2 Piercing or Slashing (+2 Disarm [.5], +2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] =7)
Spinning Sword: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (Concealable [.5], Light Finessable [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1], Flexible Reach [2x2=4] = 7)

Two-Handed Exotic Melee (8)
Monk's Spade: d8/d8 x4 Bludgeoning or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Monk [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Zulaat(Double Glaive): 2d4/2d4 19-20/x4 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)

New Weapon Abilities
Name [Cost of Ability] (Melee Available/Ranged Available): Description
Battle Instrument [.5] (Y/Y): This weapon also functions as a musical instrument and may be masterworked as both a weapon and instrument. Such processes must be paid for separately. The weapon can be used as a weapon or instrument but not both at once in the same round.
Light Finessable [.5] (Y/N): As Finessable but, due to short grips and light materials, can't be two-handed.
Nonthreatening [.5] (Y/Y): People nonproficient in the weapon can't tell that it's a weapon without careful study. To discern the danger, an observer needs to succeed at a Sense Motive check (DC 20). Alternatively, a proficient wielder can make an opposed Bluff versus an observer's Sense Motive to hide the threat they present.

Them's a further 2 coppers. Take as you will.

EDIT:

Okay, OP is updated. There is now a table for Masterwork upgrades that includes the composite bows, swordchucks, and the masterwork weapons provided by Cieyrin. I'm pretty sure I fixed all of the errors Cieyrin pointed out, and I decided to go with the .5 cost for making a finessible weapon.

Slings and Heavy Picks didn't get updated, though I await to see what you think about my alternate solution for slings. Speaking of, I'll write a quick write-up of the War Sling with my suggestion in place:

War Sling: d6 x4 70' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Throwable [1], Increase Range x3 [3] = 7)

Looking at the scimitar, rapier and falchion, I definitely don't think they're as good as other one-handed martial weapons and work better as exotics.

I didn't change the shortbow as Cieyrin suggested just yet, because I'm not sold that making only shortbows usable while mounted is the right answer here. While it makes them different in a realistic way, it's not a particularly great advantage, and is more a stealth nerf to other bows than a meaningful benefit for the shortbow.

Perhaps if the shortbow gained a property that negates the normal penalty, (-4 while moving -8 while running) for shooting on horseback would be in order, as that's a benefit to them rather than a nerf to others. I'm still not sure if it's worth it, but I guess I could see it having use in some niche build, with the longbow being the normal go-to weapon. In fact I'll probably edit this new property in after posting this.

That seems reasonable for giving further value to Mounted Archer without being a stealth nerf but may I suggest that it just halves the penalty so that Mounted Archery, the feat, still has a use and when one has both they negate the penalty entirely?

[Seerow]

You just had to crosspost me and give me all that -after- I finished updating didn't you? :p

[Cieyrin]

You just had to crosspost me and give me all that -after- I finished updating didn't you? :p

Not my fault, I swear! >_>;; I didn't see your new post before I finished my new one, though I did edit in a response to your new one after I noticed it, specifically what got missed, changes to the war sling to match up to my sling suggestion and what to do with Mounted Archer.

So, to futzing with armor and materials...

[Seerow]

1) So go back to a full point but make Scimitar/Rapier exotic? I guess it works out all right since someone could just take a masterwork longsword or something if they want a non-exotic weapon.

2) Slings as melee throwable weapons is kind of akward though, as that implies you're throwing the sling rather than the stone, so it would need a special footnote. I do agree that the stats line up better that way though.

3) One handed reach is too expensive: I disagree on this. One handed reach is rare, and that should be because it's hard to get. As it is you can get a one handed weapon with reach for 3 points, which isn't too bad, it's only when you want inclusive reach (which in core is exclusive to the spiked chain) that it gets really expensive.

But then again this is one of the reasons I was hesitant on statting up whips. The reach is already 5' shorter than in core, but in exchange doesn't provoke AoOs, lets you take AoOs, and can damage armored targets. Perhaps you could add in flaw: doesn't damage unarmored targets/cant take AoOs for a bonus slot that lets you finesse it... but then you're making a new exception just for this weapon... again part of why I wanted to avoid statting it, and just let it go with the old rules.

4) Will update the weapons you pointed out that I missed.

5) The way I did it I actually think works a bit smoother. Mounted Archery has a -4 penalty or -8 while running. Now you can take the shortbow and have no penalty while riding normally, or take the shortbow+feat to have no penalty while running.

I'm actually fine with the shortbow negating the need for the feat for people who don't care about running, because honestly the mounted archery feat is pretty bad anyway. Making it something so you can use the better longbow with it rather than the shortbow is fine imo. Though most people will prolly just carry a shortbow with them if they have a mount.



edit: And updated. I'm still not sold on the sling as a one handed melee weapon thing, but I put it in as that for now. I'm thinking maybe slings should just get a note that they gain a free 20ft range, in the same vein as bows getting a free +60ft range and 1 slot and crossbows gaining 70ft range and 2 slots. It would hardly be game breaking to do so, and requires less explanation than having slings as melee weapons.

[Jjeinn-tae]

I didn't change the shortbow as Cieyrin suggested just yet, because I'm not sold that making only shortbows usable while mounted is the right answer here. While it makes them different in a realistic way, it's not a particularly great advantage, and is more a stealth nerf to other bows than a meaningful benefit for the shortbow.

Perhaps if the shortbow gained a property that negates the normal penalty, (-4 while moving -8 while running) for shooting on horseback would be in order, as that's a benefit to them rather than a nerf to others. I'm still not sure if it's worth it, but I guess I could see it having use in some niche build, with the longbow being the normal go-to weapon. In fact I'll probably edit this new property in after posting this.

One thing to note is that shortbows being the only bow able to be used while mounted is based on the core rules:

Longbow

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below) but not a regular longbow.

Shortbow

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a shortbow while mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a shortbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite shortbow (see below) but not a regular shortbow.

[Cieyrin]

1) So go back to a full point but make Scimitar/Rapier exotic? I guess it works out all right since someone could just take a masterwork longsword or something if they want a non-exotic weapon.

Exactly.

2) Slings as melee throwable weapons is kind of awkward though, as that implies you're throwing the sling rather than the stone, so it would need a special footnote. I do agree that the stats line up better that way though.

It's what slings really do, though. It makes your arm effectively longer so you have a longer lever to use to throw the rock or whatever harder and farther. Same concept as an atl-atl but instead of javelins, you're throwing rocks. You're just using a leather pouch as your hand instead of your hand.

3) One handed reach is too expensive: I disagree on this. One handed reach is rare, and that should be because it's hard to get. As it is you can get a one handed weapon with reach for 3 points, which isn't too bad, it's only when you want inclusive reach (which in core is exclusive to the spiked chain) that it gets really expensive.

But then again this is one of the reasons I was hesitant on statting up whips. The reach is already 5' shorter than in core, but in exchange doesn't provoke AoOs, lets you take AoOs, and can damage armored targets. Perhaps you could add in flaw: doesn't damage unarmored targets/cant take AoOs for a bonus slot that lets you finesse it... but then you're making a new exception just for this weapon... again part of why I wanted to avoid statting it, and just let it go with the old rules.

It's still outside the purview of simple and martial weapons to have a one-handed flexible reach weapon and still be any modicum of effectiveness, though. Plus, the whip, whip-dagger, spiked chain and spinning sword are the only weapons in the game with flexible reach, anyways, and the spiked chain is still king, as the only one of the 4 that's two-handed and gets neat boosts besides. I don't think anyone is gonna break the game with the whip being actually functional, as it still does paltry damage and is mostly a combat maneuver enhancer. Things like Stand Still and other BC feats aren't going to function as well with a whip, not even with dual wielding a pair of whips, as that just means you're capable of doing more support for someone else to go in and nuke the baddies while you have 'em tied down.

Basically, what I did with one-handed flexible reach still leaves it as the most expensive ability available for purchase and you barely have points left over to do much with it. I should also point out that you already threw up a disclaimer about having DM adjudication in place before letting in a custom weapon, which should handle something like one-handed flexible reach with the other slots thrown all into damage or something like that. I just want whips and its associates to actually see play and not have to depend on Lasher or some such to crutch it into viability, y'know? I want to enable Zorro to be able to play from the get-go.

5) The way I did it I actually think works a bit smoother. Mounted Archery has a -4 penalty or -8 while running. Now you can take the shortbow and have no penalty while riding normally, or take the shortbow+feat to have no penalty while running.

I'm actually fine with the shortbow negating the need for the feat for people who don't care about running, because honestly the mounted archery feat is pretty bad anyway. Making it something so you can use the better longbow with it rather than the shortbow is fine imo. Though most people will prolly just carry a shortbow with them if they have a mount.

Y'know what? I rescind my previous statement about Mounted Archery, the feat, and agree with you totally. Archers have few enough feats as-is and cutting out one so a mounted archer can play just a bit better is its own reward.

edit: And updated. I'm still not sold on the sling as a one handed melee weapon thing, but I put it in as that for now. I'm thinking maybe slings should just get a note that they gain a free 20ft range, in the same vein as bows getting a free +60ft range and 1 slot and crossbows gaining 70ft range and 2 slots. It would hardly be game breaking to do so, and requires less explanation than having slings as melee weapons.

I'm just trying to eliminate the awkwardness slings normally have, as their not quite projectile weapons and not quite thrown but somewhere in between in core. Pushing them firmly into thrown weapons opens up possibilities and lets the red-headed stepchild of weapons actually shine a bit and lets halflings keep using their favored weapons effectively for a longer period. I see no reason why that's a bad thing. Having them as their own category makes a slight bit of sense if you want to go that way but I think having them as one-handed melees works just fine, as you can just explain how you pound the rock into the poor sap's head who thought he could come and threaten you so you wouldn't shoot. Sling bullets are a half a pound a piece, y'know.

[Cieyrin]

Arms and Equipment Guide is a bit harder to convert than I thought, as I have to cross-reference more recent books to see what's been updated and what hasn't, so that'll take a bit longer.

In the mean time, I can post the fruits of my labors for conversions of the weapons from Planar Handbook, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild and Eberron Campaign Setting, along with new abilities. EDIT: Now including Secrets of Sarlona! The mass table is as follows:

Light Simple Melee (2)
Musperule: d6 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 2)
Steel Flute: d4 x2 10' Bludgeoning (Nonthreatening [.5], Battle Instrument [.5], Throwable [1] = 2)

One-Handed Simple Melee (3)
Heavy Sickle: d8 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1] = 3)

Light Martial Melee (3)
Gehennan Lancet: d6 18-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1] = 3)
Stabaxe: d8 x3 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 3)
Straightblade: d8 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 3)

Two-Handed Martial Melee (5)
Ripper: d10 19-20/x2 Piercing (+2 Crit Confirm [.5], Set [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 5)

Light Exotic Melee (6)
Dwarven Buckler-Axe: d8 19-20/x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Battle Shield [1] = 6)
Monk's Cane: d8 x3 10' Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Nonthreatening [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Monk [1], Throwable [1] =6)
Cutting Wheel: d8 19-20/x2 Piercing and Slashing (+4 Disarm [1], Extra Damage Type (And) [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] = 6)
Foot Spike: d6 19-20/x3 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Aerial Pounce [2] = 6)
Throwing Hammer: d8 x3 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Throwable [1], Increase Range x2 [2] = 6)
Elven Lightblade: d8 18-20/x2 Piercing (+2 Disarm [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Weapon Familiarity (Rapier, Shortsword) [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1] = 6)
Gnomish Tortoise Blade: d8 18-20/x2 Piercing (+4 AoO [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Battle Shield [1] = 6)
Gnomish Quickrazor: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing (+4 Feint [1], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Concealable [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Sudden Draw [1] = 6)

One-Handed Exotic Melee (7)
Hook Sword: d10 19-20/x2 Piercing or Slashing (+2 Disarm [.5], +2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] =7)
Spinning Sword: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (Concealable [.5], Light Finessable [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1], Flexible Reach [2x2=4] = 7)
Gnomish Swordcatcher: d8 19-20/x3 Slashing (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Finessable [1] = 7)
Elven Thinblade: d10 18-20/x2 Piercing (Weapon Familiarity (Longsword, Rapier) [1], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Finessable [1] = 7)

Two-Handed Exotic Melee (8)
Elven Courtblade: 2d6 18-20/x2 Piercing or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Weapon Familiarity (Greatsword) [.5], Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Finessable [1] = 8)
Dwarven Double Spear: d10/d10 x4 Piercing or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Set [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Jovar: 2d6 18-20/x2 Slashing (+4 Crit Confirm [1], Brutal 1 [1], Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1] = 8)
Ramhammer: 2d6 x4 Bludgeoning (+2 Bull Rush [.5], Knockback [.5], Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Reach [1] = 8)
Valenar Double Scimitar: d10/d10 18-20/x2 Slashing (Crit Confirm +4 [1], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Monk's Spade: d8/d8 x4 Bludgeoning or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Monk [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Talenta Tangat: d10 18-20/x3 Slashing (Crit Confirm +4 [1], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2] = 8)
Dwarven Warpike: 2d6 x3 Piercing or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Set [.5], Tripper [.5], Trip +2 [.5], Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 8)
Zulaat(Double Glaive): 2d4/2d4 19-20/x4 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)

Ranged Exotic
Annulat: d6 18-20/x2 50' Slashing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Arc [1] = 6)
Talenta Boomerang: d6 x3 70' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], increase Range x3 [3], Return [1] = 6)
Xendrik Boomerang: d8 19-20/x2 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Return [1] = 6)
Footbow: d10 x3 90' Piercing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Range [1], Strength to Damage [1], Mighty Pull [1] = 7)
Skiprock: d6 x3 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Ricochet [2] = 6)

New Weapon Abilities
Name [Cost] (Melee Usable/Ranged Usable): Description
Aerial Pounce [2] (Y/N): When a proficient user wields a pair of these weapons and makes a dive attack, they may attack with both weapons at the end of a charge.
Arc [1] (N/Y): When a proficient user wields this weapon, they can make the weapon's trajectory curve around obstacles, allowing the wielder to ignore 4 points of cover bonus to AC.
Battle Instrument [.5] (Y/Y): This weapon also functions as a musical instrument and may be masterworked as both a weapon and instrument. Such processes must be paid for separately. The weapon can be used as a weapon or instrument but not both at once in the same round.
Battle Shield [1] (Y/N): Built into this weapon is a small Buckler, that provides a +1 shield bonus, -1 ACP and 5% ASF. As with any shield, if you attack with a Battle Shield, you lose the shield bonus until your next turn. You may masterwork a Battle Shield as both a shield and a weapon, though you must pay for each separately.
Knockback [.5] (Y/Y): A proficient user of this weapon can use it to bull rush without entering their target's square, avoiding the attack of opportunity.
Light Finessable [.5] (Y/N): As Finessable but, due to short grips and light materials, can't be two-handed.
Mighty Pull [1] (N/Y): A proficient user can apply extra leverage when using the weapon, allowing the wielder to apply 1.5 of their Strength bonus to damage. Requires Strength to Damage weapon ability.
Nonthreatening [.5] (Y/Y): People nonproficient in the weapon can't tell that it's a weapon without careful study. To discern the danger, an observer needs to succeed at a Sense Motive check (DC 20). Alternatively, a proficient wielder can make an opposed Bluff versus an observer's Sense Motive to hide the threat they present.
Return [1] (N/Y): A weapon with Return flies back to a proficient user on a miss. To catch a returning weapon, the user must make an attack roll against AC 10, as if he were throwing the weapon. Failure indicates the weapon scatters 10' in a random direction (refer to splash weapon rules for details on scattering in a random direction).
Ricochet [2] (N/Y): If a proficient user manages to hit their target, the weapon ricochets to an adjacent target. The user immediately makes a second attack roll at the same bonus-2 for this attack. An attack may ricochet only once.
Sudden Draw [1] (Y/N): This weapon may be drawn and sheathed as a free action. A Sudden Draw weapon must be sheathed after each attack to be used properly. You are treated as unarmed on other creature's turns if this is your only weapon.
Weapon Familiarity [.5] (Y/Y): This weapon is similar to another weapon in use and technique. You may treat this weapon as that weapon for the purpose of the following feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

[Cipher Stars]

Sword-Chucks yo


Swordchucks are a masterwork exotic two handed weapon:

1d8/1d8 19-20x2 . Double Weapon, inclusive reach, finessible can trip, +2 to trip attempts, +4 to crit confirmation rolls.


Just decided this needed to be added for posterity.

What about them squirrel-chux ?

[Seerow]

Okay, this fell by the wayside for a few months, but I'm reviving it. I decided to go along with reducing the cost for one handed reach, and redid the stats for whip/whip-dagger (though I'll have to double check those sometime when it's not 1am to make sure I got it right). I also rather than updating all of the new weapons Cieyrin posted into the OP gave a link to those. I may go through and prune out all of the non-core weapons and make another post in the thread with a link to them, so that you can easily distinguish core weapons and extra weapons from other sources. I also intend to look hard at Armor and special materials again, to make sure what I put up before is balanced.

Oh also, I decided to add in the brutal property from 4e. I remembered that being fun, so tossed it into the table, with what seemed like a fair value. I am moderately concerned with brutal and size scaling, but it represents at most a 14% damage increase, and while 14% of a lot can be a lot, the fact remains at that point you had a lot anyway so oh well. Not nearly as disasterous as my more recent weapon damage scaling with strength was before ammending it to consider size modifiers.

[Cieyrin]

The Secrets of Sarlona weapons didn't get covered but I'll move those stats over to the linked post, since no one wants to read through all that analysis for weapon stats, I expect.

Also, Brutal, huh? Intriguing...Better than PF's weapon qualities (Deadly, indeed ). Is that gonna get on the Minotaur Greathammer or Dwarven Greataxe?

Also, if I have the time, maybe I'll get to actually looking at the armor and materials and maybe see about getting back to the A&EG weapon conversions. My time has gotten a bit more fleeting, if the progress of my Gunslinger's Handbook is any indication.

[Seerow]

The Secrets of Sarlona weapons didn't get covered but I'll move those stats over to the linked post, since no one wants to read through all that analysis for weapon stats, I expect.

Also, Brutal, huh? Intriguing...Better than PF's weapon qualities (Deadly, indeed ). Is that gonna get on the Minotaur Greathammer or Dwarven Greataxe?

Also, if I have the time, maybe I'll get to actually looking at the armor and materials and maybe see about getting back to the A&EG weapon conversions. My time has gotten a bit more fleeting, if the progress of my Gunslinger's Handbook is any indication.

Heh no problem, I've been very intermittently active myself. And honestly have a project due tomorrow I should be working on right now. Oh well.

As for Brutal, right now I'm going to leave it as a quality for masterwork upgrading. I may update some of the exotics to include it eventually, but for now I'm thinking it's fine as an option and not something that necessarily needs to be integrated into the core weapon table.


Also, apparently you can't update the topic title after X period of time. That kind of sucks, I tried to update it to say it was updated yesterday, and it accomplished nothing. QQ

[Yitzi]

I notice some of your weapon increases overlap. Perhaps you should make it so that you can "trade in" an ability when getting another ability that includes it (so, for instance, making a ranseur able to hit adjacent as well as having reach would only cost 1, as the other one comes from trading in the reach property.)

[Seerow]

I notice some of your weapon increases overlap. Perhaps you should make it so that you can "trade in" an ability when getting another ability that includes it (so, for instance, making a ranseur able to hit adjacent as well as having reach would only cost 1, as the other one comes from trading in the reach property.)

Okay, yeah, I pretty much just assumed that if someone took overlapping abilities the new ability would supplant the old one (for example taking a d8 weapon to a d10 weapon doesn't cost 4 slots, the cost of a d10 weapon, it costs 1 slot, the cost of increasing it). If you think that the intent isn't clear, I'd be happy to update the OP, if you can think of a simple way to word it that won't just confuse the matter more.





On Armor:

Spoiler

Show

Do you think there's really any way to codify it more? I pretty much just said **** it last time I was working on it, and just did the masterwork upgrades/special materials. Was this wrong?

I think the main issue I had was that Light/Medium/Heavy armor all balance out to the same effective AC, but with heavy having more innate, and lighter requiring more dex, and Heavy always having some ACPs. What if this weren't the case? Frankly, Heavy Armor should be better. It is a higher level proficiency, and in the same way that exotic weapons should be better than martial weapons, heavy armor should be better than medium armor. Possibly even moreso because of the increased cost and inherent penalties with heavy armor.

On one hand, I think this is a potential problem with the AC system itself, making it go too far from the average destroys the RNG, especially at low levels. On the other hand, any changes to the AC system exceed the scope of the project. For example trying to change up armors to work with my damage threshold system from a while back implies that you'd need that system to run with this system, which isn't desirable.


Given that, I'm currently still leaning towards leaving armor alone, except maybe dropping down the max dex of leather armors, but make max dex cheaper to raise than actual armor.

So for example your light armor might be an average of 3 armor with 4 max dex. Medium Armor might be 5 armor with 3 max dex. And Heavy Armor 8 with 2.

...in fact I kind of like this, I think I'm gonna run with it and see where it goes. That combined with a better conversion for heavy armors with special materials should keep heavy armor relevant as the game progresses.

[Seerow]

Armor:

Light Armor
{table=head]Armor Type | Armor Bonus | Max Dex | ACP
Padded Armor | 2 | 6 | 0
Leather Armor| 3 | 4 | -1
Studded Leather | 4 | 2 | -2 [/table]

Medium Armor
{table=head]Armor Type | Armor Bonus | Max Dex | ACP
Chainmail | 4 | 5 | -2
Breastplate | 5 | 3 | -3
Scale mail | 6 | 1 | -4 [/table]

Heavy Armor
{table=head]Armor Type | Armor Bonus | Max Dex | ACP
Banded Mail | 6 | 5 | -4
Splint Mail | 7 | 3 | -5
Full Plate | 8 | 1 | -6 [/table]

Shields
{table=head]Armor Type | Armor Bonus | Max Dex | ACP
Buckler | 1 | - | 0
Light Shield | 2 | - | -1
Heavy Shield | 3 | - | -2
Tower Shield | 3 | - | -3[/table]


So what we end up with here is each tier being clearly better than the last, without throwing the RNG horribly out of whack. I did drop one armor from each category, because frankly, trying to keep them actually meaningfully different was a pain in the ass. The way I ended it was starting with the middle armor. The one above it, I'd subtract 1 armor, add 2 max dex, and reduce the ACP by 1. The one below it, I'd add 1 armor, subtract 2 max dex, and increase ACP by 2. This leads to the lowest armor on the next tier being basically the same as the highest armor on the previous tier, but with a better max dex, but the penalties generally associated with heavier armor.

Speaking of, here's the descriptions of each category of armor.

Light Armor
Has 10% Arcane Spell Failure chance, provides proficiency with Bucklers. You may notice that the Chain Shirt is missing. If you absolutely must have this armor, make it equivalent to Studded leather. Takes 1 minute to don.

Medium Armor
Has 20% Arcane Spell Failure Chance, reduces movement speed by 5ft. Provides proficiency with Light Shields. You may notice that that Hide is missing. If you absolutely must have this armor, make it equivalent to Chainmail. Takes 2 minutes to don.

Heavy Armor
Has a 30% Arcane Spell Failure Chance, reduces movement speed by 5ft. Provides proficiency with Heavy Shields. You may notice that that Half-Plate is missing. If you absolutely must have this armor, make it equivalent to Banded Mail. Takes 3 minutes to don.

Shields
All Shields, regardless of type, take only 1 move action to don.

Tower Shield
Tower Shields are treated as an exotic proficiency. A Tower Shield provides soft cover at all times when other cover is not available. It may also be used to supply Cover to the wielder when fighting defensively. When taking a full defense action, the tower shield provides Total Cover.




Donning armor hastily
Donning armor hastily reduces the time to don an armor from minutes to rounds. (So light armor would be doned in 1 round, heavy in 3 rounds). Doing so incurs a -1 armor penalty and an additional -2 ACP penalty.







Also, here's the list of armor upgrade abilities, with some minor changes from the OP.

{table=head]Upgrade | Slot Cost
Decrease Armor Check Penalty by 1 | .25 slot
+1 to resist bull rush (max +4) | .25 slot
+1 to resist trip (max +4) | .25 slot
+1 to resist grapple (max+4) | .25 slot
+1 to resist disarm (max+4) | .25 slot
+1 AC vs Crit Confirmation (max +4)| .25 slot
Fire Resist +1 | .25 slots
Cold Resist +1 | .25 slots
Electricity Resist +1 | .25 slots
Acid Resist +1 | .25 slots
Increase max dex +1 | .5 slot
Increase existing DR by +1 | .5 slot
Quick Don Armor | 1 slot
Reduce ASF 5% | 1 slot
Increase Armor Bonus +1 | 1 slot
Armor/Shield Spike | 1 slot
Add DR 1/- to an armor | 2 slots
Light Fortification | 3 slots[/table]


Quick Don Armor is a new property that negates the penalty for donning armor hastily. This allows any armor to be donned in an interval of rounds with no penalty


What would be nice however, is ideas for other armor properties that make sense as mundane masterwork style upgrades. We have a pretty lengthy list for weapons, I'm sure there's some stuff for armor out there that I'm not thinking of. Anyone got anything to add to the list?

[Amechra]

Armor Spikes.
Quicker removal/donning.
Some elemental resistances (fire would be insulation, and such).

[Seerow]

Armor Spikes.
Quicker removal/donning.
Some elemental resistances (fire would be insulation, and such).

How much resist would you think is appropriate? Something like 5 points per point invested? 1 per .25?


Also I forgot about removal/donning time. I need to look up the details on that again, and see if I can work with it.



edit: Okay updated. I went with 1 per .25 invested, so a normal masterwork armor can get 8(12) resistance in a single element. I also standardized the donning rules to 1/2/3minutes, and 1/2/3 rounds for donning hastily. Added new property to allow donning hastily without penalty. Kind of situational, but probably useful when it matters. Also added Armor/Shield spike as a 1 slot ability, and separated the +1 combat maneuver into specific maneuvers. Overall the table looks a bit more full now. It does have a leaning towards lower cost abilities, but I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that.


I think I'll update that stuff into the OP soon. I'm mostly happy with it unless someone has a legitimate concern, and then to look at special materials. Also considering epic level materials, as was suggested in another thread. Really powerful cool stuff like a captured lightningbolt. But I can't really think of enough potential suitably epic materials.