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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Seerow, this isn't exactly what you're doing, but I thought you might be able to mine it for a couple of useful ideas. A few years back I reverse-engineered the weapons to build some guidelines for my players to introduce some new weapons. I've copied them below; they've been playtested through about 4 years of steady use, and weapons created through these rules have been found to be well-balanced against existing weapons. Perhaps you can harvest one or two useful nuggets for use with your system, especially involving the costs for various upgrades.

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    Custom weapons receive 9 trait points, and may purchase traits from the following menus. Build each half of a double weapon as a separate weapon with its own point budget, purchasing the double weapon special separately for both halves.

    (This system can be used to rebuild more than 90% of the published weapons in the game, with the notable exception of a number of very unimpressive exotic weapons that are widely regarded as not worth the EWP feat required to learn them.)

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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    What do you mean, "Dirt Cheep"?
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Stuff like club, greatclub. Any weapon that's abnormally inexpensive for its class. It's the best way to account for such weapons being as sub-par as they are. The "dirt-cheap" option is not going to be appealing to a player designing a weapon for his PC, but if you're trying to outfit an army on a budget, dirt-cheap weapons may be preferable to those of higher cost.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Meh, I don't think "dirt cheap" is worth a weapon quality hit. The cost of a weapon barely matters at level 1, and after that it's even less of an issue.

    Looking at your costs, I think I may have overpriced the 18-20 crit. I've had the feeling I classed that a bit too high from the start, and realize if I drop it to 2 slots, it's probably a bit more reasonable. I'll do some math to see how much of a difference it really makes in a bit.

    Aside from that, you have a lot of your stuff overpriced compared to mine, but your weapons have more slots (7 for a 2 handed martial with yours vs 5 for mine), so it probably comes close to the same. The difference in slots between my exotics and non-exotics is a bit bigger, so the exotics are worth more, but I felt relative to current 3.5 that was absolutely necessary.

    So yeah, main thing I got out of that was reevaluate crit costs. Math inc shortly.


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    Okay 1 = base damage. Assuming you hit on an 8 (65% hit rate).


    20x2:
    1-7: 0
    8-19: 1
    20: 35% 1, 65% 2

    Total avg: .6825


    20x3
    1-7: 0
    8-19: 1
    20: 35% 1, 65% 3

    Total avg: .715
    Baseline Average: .6825
    Increase: 4.75%

    19-20x2
    1-7: 0
    8-18: 1
    19-20: 35% 1, 65% 2

    Total avg: .715
    Baseline Average: .6825
    Increase: 4.75%

    20x4
    1-7: 0
    8-19: 1
    20: 35% 1, 65% 4

    Total avg: .7475
    Baseline Average: .6825
    Increase: 9.5%

    18-20x2
    1-7: 0
    8-17: 1
    18-20: 35% 1, 65% 2

    Total avg: .7475
    Baseline Average: .6825
    Increase: 9.5%


    19-20x3
    1-7: 0
    8-18: 1
    19-20: 35% 1, 65% 3

    Total avg: .78
    Baseline Average: .6825
    Increase: 14.29%

    19-20x4
    1-7: 0
    8-18: 1
    19-20: 35% 1, 65% 4

    Total avg: .845
    Baseline Average: .6825
    Increase: 23.8%

    18-20x3
    1-7: 0
    8-17: 1
    18-20: 35% 1, 65% 3

    Total avg: .845
    Baseline Average: .6825
    Increase: 23.8%

    18-20x4
    1-7: 0
    8-17: 1
    18-20: 35% 1, 65% 4

    Total avg: .94425
    Baseline Average: .6825
    Increase: 38.1%







    So basically: [expected reflects what the cost would be under the system with 18-20x2 as 2 slots. current reflects the costs I have been using]
    19-20x2 = 1 (expected: 1)
    20x2 = 1 (expected: 1)
    18-20x2 = 2 (expected: 2, current: 3)
    20x4 = 2 (expected: 2)

    Both so far so good. Then mixing them up some:
    19-20x3 = 3 (expected 3)
    19-20x4 = 5 (expected: 4)
    18-20x3 = 5 (expected: 4, current: 5)
    18-20x4 = 8 (expected: 6, current: 7)

    Basically, making 18-20x2 cost 2 is more reasonable than the current 3. Because while it brings the value closer to what is accurate in a couple of places, it is overpriced by itself.



    I think there's two choices here: Either explicitly spell out the cost of each crit range, or accept that the higher crits are going to be a little more efficient even with the stacking penalty of multiply by 2.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-09-29 at 09:42 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Meh, I don't think "dirt cheap" is worth a weapon quality hit. The cost of a weapon barely matters at level 1, and after that it's even less of an issue....

    ....The difference in slots between my exotics and non-exotics is a bit bigger, so the exotics are worth more, but I felt relative to current 3.5 that was absolutely necessary.
    Most would agree with you. I priced it thus because I was trying to measure how the existing weapons worked, rather than how I felt they ought to work. I can agree with you that the progression of exotic weapons in splatbooks shows that WoTC was struggling to find a balance point for them. Exotic weapons in the PH or in Complete Adventurer generally only got 1 extra "perk", while those in Complete Warrior usually got two, and those in Races of Stone generally netted 3 or 4.

    Looking at your costs, I think I may have overpriced the 18-20 crit. I've had the feeling I classed that a bit too high from the start, and realize if I drop it to 2 slots, it's probably a bit more reasonable. I'll do some math to see how much of a difference it really makes in a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I think there's two choices here: Either explicitly spell out the cost of each crit range, or accept that the higher crits are going to be a little more efficient even with the stacking penalty of multiply by 2.

    It's necessary to include both range and multiplier when making the calculation, because an increase in threat range multiplies the impact of an increase in critical multiplier. Here's my math behind the crit pricing. Assuming you perfectly sample 20 attacks made with a weapon, you'll see every possible d20 result exactly once. Assume you hit on a 2+ and confirm all criticals. How many times will your weapon deal its base damage in a perfect sample of 20 attack rolls?

    20/x2 = 20
    20/x3 = 21
    20/x4 = 22
    19-20/x2 = 21
    18-20/x2 = 22
    19-20/x3 = 23
    18-20/x3 = 25
    19-20/x4 = 25
    18-20/x4 = 28

    Thus, the pricing of the combined threat range and crit multiplier is based on the number of additional times you'll get to roll damage per 20 attacks.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-09-30 at 01:49 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    It's necessary to include both range and multiplier when making the calculation, because an increase in threat range multiplies the impact of an increase in critical multiplier. Here's my math behind the crit pricing. Assuming you perfectly sample 20 attacks made with a weapon, you'll see every possible d20 result exactly once. Assume you hit on a 2+ and confirm all criticals. How many times will your weapon deal its base damage in a perfect sample of 20 attack rolls?
    Actually if you look inside the spoiler, that's the math I did, except instead of looking at how many times you deal weapon damage, I calculated average damage per round, and measured the % increase from 20x2.

    My system does already make the crits cost 1 more slot than normal when combining both range and multiplier, or 2 more when maximizing both.

    The problem is that the damage increase is actually a bit higher than that, proportionally. But if I make it 100% proportional, a 18-20x4 crit range needs to be 8 slots, which is 100% of the slots from a exotic two hander, which would be left at d3 damage and have no other perks. Kind of sad.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I may look a bit deeper later but I don't really think 18-20 is overpriced, as increasing the chances of a crit, including the damage bonus attached to the attack, tends to be more powerful than a higher multiplier you get less often.

    Also, your refined armor rules have this issue with confusing 'don' with 'dawn'. Just thought I'd point that out.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I may look a bit deeper later but I don't really think 18-20 is overpriced, as increasing the chances of a crit, including the damage bonus attached to the attack, tends to be more powerful than a higher multiplier you get less often.
    The math I did actually showed them to be pretty much identical at all levels in terms of % damage increase.



    edit: I've decided I'm going to drop 18-20x2 down by 1 slot, to make it 2 slots just like 20x4 is. I'm going to leave the multiplier as is, because while it is a bit more efficient, it all depends on how much you have in the way of static damage. I mean a rogue with an 18-20x4 who relies on sneak attack mostly doesn't get a whole lot out of it, especially if their damage die is only a d3. A fighter with a flat +50 damage gets quite a bit out of it. So a 18-20x3 or 19-20x4 costing 1 slot less than their theoretical value, or 18-20x4 costing 2 less than the theoretical value... I'm not gonna sweat it, because with the high slot costs involved, it's not a obvious always go to solution. And if you use the system I posted recently for converting +attribute damage mods to extra weapon dice, the weapon die upgrades become a lot more important, so different weapons still prosper.


    Also, your refined armor rules have this issue with confusing 'don' with 'dawn'. Just thought I'd point that out.
    Good sir, I must say. I have no idea what you are talking about.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-09-30 at 05:07 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I updated the OP, updating the cost of 18-20x2 crit, and the weapons that had 18-20 crit ranges getting a slot back. Also added a paragraph explaining that overlapping benefits also overlap in cost, and giving an example. Hopefully that clears up that issue.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-09-30 at 02:37 PM.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    If iv'e read this right you can get a masterwrok exotic 2 handed adamantite weapon which gives you 12 upgrade points. starting at d4x20

    Bump the weapon damage up 2d6 costs 4 points
    Bump its damage up to 8d6 costs 8 points

    You now can do 8d6 damage on a medium weapon. Combining that with your other dice rolls homebrew is quite deadly. Sure you can't trip or finesse but still, DAMAGE!

    Alternativley only go up to 3d6 damage and instead grab 18-20 * 4 crit multiplier. Although if I was the barbarian I'd be taking the first option.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangles View Post
    If iv'e read this right you can get a masterwrok exotic 2 handed adamantite weapon which gives you 12 upgrade points. starting at d4x20

    Bump the weapon damage up 2d6 costs 4 points
    Bump its damage up to 8d6 costs 8 points

    You now can do 8d6 damage on a medium weapon. Combining that with your other dice rolls homebrew is quite deadly. Sure you can't trip or finesse but still, DAMAGE!

    Alternativley only go up to 3d6 damage and instead grab 18-20 * 4 crit multiplier. Although if I was the barbarian I'd be taking the first option.

    Actually it would be 6 slots (exotic) + 2 slots (two handed weapon) + 2 slots (masterwork) + 3 slots (adamantine), for 13 slots total. So worse than you said.

    You are right that that scales up too quickly, I can think of two ways to change it:

    1) Have the cost increase the further above 2d6 you get. Every increase past 2d6 costs an additional +1. (So 3d6 is 2 points, 4d6 is 3, 6d6 is 4, 8d6 is 5).

    This would make 13 slots cap at 6d6, with nothing else.

    2) Make a different progression chart. The assumed progression chart is for size bonuses. We're talking about increasing weapon damage die size, which has no precedent for going above 2d6. So what if instead it increases to 2d8 (9), then 2d10 (11), then 2d12(13). Then increment cost again, and it then jumps to 4d6 (14)->4d8(18) -> 4d10 (22) ->4d12 (26)

    At that point you have costs for slots going:
    0-1d4
    1-1d6
    2-1d8
    3-1d10
    4-2d6
    6-2d8
    8-2d10
    10-2d12
    13-4d8


    And past that isn't really possible.

    It's still a lot of damage, but better 4d8 than 8d6.






    The other possibility is that the new weapon rule specifically says DM adjudication is required, so someone trying to make a new weapon that is nothing but damage is bad. Which means the best you'd get is the base weapon of 3d6, and spend 5 upgrade slots increasing damage, which can get you to 6d6. (Taking that into account, with the first alternate system it would instead cap at 4d6, second alternate system it would cap at 2d12)
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-09-30 at 09:17 PM.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I updated the OP, updating the cost of 18-20x2 crit, and the weapons that had 18-20 crit ranges getting a slot back. Also added a paragraph explaining that overlapping benefits also overlap in cost, and giving an example. Hopefully that clears up that issue.
    My 18-20 weapons are also updated. The Arbalest update doesn't actually work, though, since increasing its Crit mod costs 2 slots, not 1, due to the cost multiplier for increasing both sides. I'd recommend giving it a range increase.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    My 18-20 weapons are also updated. The Arbalest update doesn't actually work, though, since increasing its Crit mod costs 2 slots, not 1, due to the cost multiplier for increasing both sides. I'd recommend giving it a range increase.
    Huh? You initially had it at 100 range, I cut it down to 80 (giving it back 1 slot), and bumped it up to x3, which would cost that slot plus the slot freed up from reducing crit range cost.



    Calculation:
    Arbalest (Exotic Crossbow, 8 Slots)
    1d12 (4 slots) + 18-20 (2 slots) x3 (1 slot * 2) = 8 slots.


    Looks like it works to me.


    [edit: Just realized you said that the cost multiplies for both sides. I never changed that. It still only multiplies the cost for the lower value. So two stage 1 upgrades still costs 3, a stage two and stage one upgrade costs 4, and two stage 2 upgrades costs 6. It is a little less than the actual scale of damage increase gained from the crit ranged, but 6 slots is cost intensive enough to keep most people away from it until looking at special material weapons, which should have nice things since that's the point.]



    Also, any opinion on which way to handle damage dice above 2d6? Or alternate methods? Once that is decided, I'll probably need to update several weapons, and I'm thinking about cleaning up the first few posts, or just starting a full new thread (so I can have a separate post for current weapons, extra weapons, masterwork rules, Armor, and Special Materials, rather than compressing it all so much)
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-10-01 at 01:26 PM.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Huh? You initially had it at 100 range, I cut it down to 80 (giving it back 1 slot), and bumped it up to x3, which would cost that slot plus the slot freed up from reducing crit range cost.



    Calculation:
    Arbalest (Exotic Crossbow, 8 Slots)
    1d12 (4 slots) + 18-20 (2 slots) x3 (1 slot * 2) = 8 slots.


    Looks like it works to me.


    [edit: Just realized you said that the cost multiplies for both sides. I never changed that. It still only multiplies the cost for the lower value. So two stage 1 upgrades still costs 3, a stage two and stage one upgrade costs 4, and two stage 2 upgrades costs 6. It is a little less than the actual scale of damage increase gained from the crit ranged, but 6 slots is cost intensive enough to keep most people away from it until looking at special material weapons, which should have nice things since that's the point.]
    Bah, this is what I get for looking at my old notes instead of backanalyzing the presented stats. ~_~ Nevermind...

    Also, any opinion on which way to handle damage dice above 2d6? Or alternate methods? Once that is decided, I'll probably need to update several weapons, and I'm thinking about cleaning up the first few posts, or just starting a full new thread (so I can have a separate post for current weapons, extra weapons, masterwork rules, Armor, and Special Materials, rather than compressing it all so much)
    I think the scaling cost of Heavy Damage should work, as well as emphasizing that DM attention on customizing weapons is warranted.

    On a different note, I had a proposal for bringing in special ammo: Masterwork ammo provides 1 slot of customization. So a flight arrow would have 1 slot worth of range, while a serpent tongue arrow would provide Extra Damage Type (Slashing) and do both damage types at the same time, etc.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I think option 1 is the better of the two ways to handle this. It keeps with the current idea of scaling dice and someone can go DAMAGE if they really want but would probably be better off taking crits or something like that. Still 6d6 is nothing to scoff at.

    Might want to mention somewhere though that the rules for creating weapons are for medium creatures and that the damage dice should change if the weapon is created for creatures of a different size.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Okay, it seems you both prefer the first option. But while thinking about it, a couple problems occur to me that are admittedly pretty niche, let me know what you think about them:

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    1st) How should I handle the fullblade? It having a medium damage die of 2d8 throws off everything else, and ends up actually weaker always than bumping up to 3d6. Consider:

    2d8 (9)
    3d8 (13.5)
    4d8 (18)
    6d8 (27)
    8d8 (36)

    vs

    3d6 (10.5)
    4d6 (14)
    6d6 (21)
    8d6 (28)
    12d6 (42)



    Yet, both of these options would currently cost the same. Should I just bump Fullblade up to 3d6 base instead of the traditional 2d8? Or should increasing the damage die past 2d6 be an alternate option that costs 1 slot. (So you could go from 2d6 to 3d6 for 2 slots, or to 2d8 for 1 slot, or 2d10 for 2 slots. These two are fairly close together. But then scaling from here has its own problems. So it seems the better way to handle it would be just make the fullblade 3d6.



    2nd) The way damage dice scale to a new size doesn't work quite as prettily as just "figure out what point on the chart you are and start going". The way the size scaling actually works is double your weapon damage every 2 sizes, with each step being the same increase.


    So if you have 3d6 as a medium creature, you should have 4.5d6 as a large creature, and 6d6 as a huge. You can see where that would be a problem. This is something you could probably just handwave, and pretend like past 2d6 you were just scaling weapon sizes rather than base damage dice, but it feels to me like a good reason to keep weapon sizes as a even number of dice, rather than trying to follow size scaling rules.




    For comparison's sake, the second method would involve more change from the default, but would result in a more consistent damage, curve that doesn't break outrageously even if extra slots are provided for in the future.
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    I'm thinking since going from 1d12 to 2d6 is actually an average damage increase and synergizes better with brutal, to account for that: You buy up to damage die size normally, but at d8 or d12, you can pay .5 slots to double the number of dice but reducing the die size to d4 or d6 respectively. Then scale normally again, with costs per increase = number of damage dice. Could make it all just a table:

    {table=head]Base Damage Die | Slot Cost | Total Cost | Fine | Diminutive | Tiny | Small | Medium | Large | Huge | Gargantuan | Colossal
    1d4 | 0 | 0 | - | 1 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 |1d6 | 2d4 | 3d4 | 4d4
    1d6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 |1d8 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 4d6
    1d8 | 1 | 2 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 3d4 | 2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8
    2d4 | .5 | 2.5 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 2d4 | 3d4 | 4d4 | 6d4 | 8d4
    d10 | 1 | 3 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 |2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8 | 6d8
    d12 | 1 | 4 | 1d3 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 1d12 | 3d6 | 4d6 | 6d6 | 8d6
    2d6 |.5 | 4.5 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 3d6 |4d6 | 6d6 | 8d6
    2d8 | 2 | 6.5 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8 | 6d8 | 8d8
    4d4 | .5 | 7 | 1d4 | 1d6 |2d4 | 3d4 | 4d4 |6d4 | 8d4 | 12d4 | 16d4
    2d10 | 2 | 8.5 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 2d10 | 3d10 | 4d10 | 6d10 | 8d10
    2d12 | 2 | 10.5 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 2d12 | 3d12 | 4d12 | 6d12 | 8d12
    4d6 | .5 | 11 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 4d6 | 6d6 | 8d6 | 12d6 | 16d6
    4d8 | 4 | 15 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8 |6d8 | 8d8 | 12d8 | 16d8
    8d4 | .5 | 15.5 | 1d10 | 2d6 |4d4 | 6d4 | 8d4 | 12d4 | 16d4 | 24d4 | 32d4 [/table]

    The table could be extrapolated further, but at this point the pattern is set, and no slot cost currently allowable will need more. (4d10 would be 19 slots, 4d12 would be 23 slots, and 8d6 would be 23.5 slots)




    It is also worth re-emphasizing: The masterwork minor customization can be slotted into any game without too much trouble.

    With the bigger impact special materials, the idea is to replace some of the more boring magic item properties eventually, so while a 4d6 base damage weapon seems like a lot, it's probably actually a toss up at best, net loss at worse, when compared to a typical +5 +xd6 weapon. Similarly when combined with the other subsystem, that replaces strength mod. The synergy between the two of these is pretty good, so it is probably a net gain, but not as scary of one as it seems at first.






    On the subject of Masterwork Arrows: I should have thought of that. That will go in, but it does mean masterwork arrows need to be crafted specifically for their bow. Because otherwise it's pretty weird (well I put an increase crit range on this arrow... but the bow already has an increased crit range. Does it upgrade to 18-20? What if the bow is already 18-20, is my arrow just useless? Similar questions arise with damage. Unless you want to just say similar abilities overlap, sucks if your bow can already do that.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I like having single abilities overlap- after all, you could just NOT buy that given type of arrow.

    You know, I'm actually ruminating on something based off of this...

    I made a feat a while ago called Spellcrafter. It was meant as an e6 capstone feat, and it worked by allowing you to exchange the +1 from Masterwork with any +1 enhancement (so you could make a Flaming sword, or a Keen rapier, or what have you.)

    So, here is my rumination: if you take a certain feat, you may craft your weapons and armor from a special "material" called magic.

    What magic does is that it gives an extra 2~3 slots, and the crafter (i.e., you) gets to decide on two different 'tracks' for the weapon/armor.

    For example, take a Magic Simple Two-Handed Weapon: it would have 6~7 slots, which we shall spend like so:

    Finessable, Increase Crit Threat, Gain Reach, Double Damage on a Mounted Charge, Increased Damage Dice x2/3 (whichever floats your boat.)

    And then we pick 5 slots of "magical properties", which work like so:

    At 4th level, you can replace one slot of the normal enhancement with one slot of the Magical enhancements. Every 4 levels thereafter, you may swap a single extra slot over to the "magic" state.

    Obviously, you would pick thematic magical abilities, like switching out the Finessable ability for one that allows you to use Charisma for your attack rolls, or swapping out the Double Damage on a Mounted Charge with some kind of speed increase.

    And another suggestion: Weapon Focus should allow you to pick a single slot's worth of weapon upgrades that apply to every weapon of that given type that you pick up. So you could make it so you treat Greatswords as Finessable, or that you have Reach with daggers, or whatever.

    And then every future iteration of Weapon Focus should grant you another slot.

    Weapon Specialization would need to be altered, though, since I can't think of what to change it to...

    Oh, an Improved Natural Attack? It should totally give you an upgrade slot instead of a size increase to your Natural weapon's damage. And then it should be allowed to be taken multiple times (maybe with the same general level prereqs that the Weapon Focus line has), so that you can run around with awesome claws of whatever you feel like!

    Armor Specialization should work like Weapon Focus, as should Shield Specialization (or Focus; can't remember what it is actually called); there should also be an equivalent feat for Natural Armor.

    And, to combo this with my earlier rumination, there can be a feat that essentially makes it so that any object you have the proper feats for can be made magical instead! Like making it so that every dagger you pick up starts spontaneously dripping poison, or that every single piece of banded mail you don bursts into awesome-looking flames.

    Why this alteration for Weapon Focus and the like, you may ask? Because being extremely focused on a weapon should let you use it expertly, even if the weapon itself is of wimpy quality.

    In other words, a master of fighting with clubs, say, should be capable of picking up a random piece of wood an kick ass with it.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Hrm... my problem with the weapon focus and similar feats that you are talking about is they typically are really bad. Like even with these changes I'm considering making proficiencies work like:

    Spoiler
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    Simple Weapons
    -Everybody has them

    Martial Weapons
    -All Light Martial Weapons
    -All One Handed Martial Weapons
    -All Two Handed Martial Weapons
    -All Ranged Martial Weapons

    Exotic Weapons
    -All Light Exotic Weapons (prerequisite, at least one light martial weapon)
    -All One Handed Exotic Weapons (prerequisite, at least one one-handed martial weapon)
    -All Two Handed Exotic Weapons (prerequisite, at least one two-handed martial weapon)
    -All Ranged Exotic Weapons (prerequisite, at least 1 ranged martial weapon)


    With each bullet point being a feat you can take, rather than a specific weapon. (You can still get individual proficiencies from a class, but if you blow a feat on it, you get the group). So now, you want a spiked chain? You get all Two Handed Exotics. So that feat is worth a fair bit, because in general, there's going to be an exotic weapon with a niche for whatever you want to do. This gives the feat a fair bit more versatility, making it more desirable. (Honestly I'm half tempted to just make it ALL martial and ALL exotics, rather than separating categories, but think that might be -too- broad).



    Now say you make the Weapon Focus line work based like that. ie you take "Weapon Focus, 1-handed weapons". Well you can't pick one slot benefit that every one handed weapon you ever pick up won't have, because they're a pretty diverse lot. But just one set in stone ability is pretty rigid anyway. So what if we make it more flexible? Say as a swift action you can change what the bonus is. Now that weapon you can shift between having a higher crit/damage to having a bonus to disarming someone just before you make the attempt. Or you can now choose to use it for non-lethal damage without taking a penalty. Or you can get the extra mounted charge damage with it. Or now you can throw your greatsword. etc.

    I mean, disallow something silly like double weapon (then again that costs 2 slots, so wouldn't be an issue unless you made a greater weapon focus... and actually double weapon just translating into you are so awesome you can use one weapon as two would be a pretty badass thing to do), but the vast majority of things seem like they would work, and would be pretty cool. So you have this floating point that you can use for all those niche things that you'd like to have but know won't come up frequently enough to actually spend a slot on it. I like the idea. (And it works similarly well for Armor and Shield spec, especially with resisting maneuvers and energy resistances, though those are harder to justify flavorwise)




    Also, I am leaning towards agreeing with you on the Arrow thing. It just kind of sucks looting arrows that are masterwork for something that isn't compatible with your bow.



    On the magical slots thing, I'd need to see more to comment. I'm not sure where the 5 magical slots came from (given that the magical property granted 3 slots), and the only magical property example I saw was cha to hit.

    Personally I'm still partial to using special materials to replicate magical item properties (and would love a list of properties that could fit into this that I've missed, if anybody has favorites that didn't go in. I know I didn't cover even a fraction of what's out there), but there is still the possibility of epic materials that would come online around level 15 or so, and a weapon made out of raw magic sounds like it would fit into that category.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Well, the idea for "magic" is that you get X extra slots, and then at every level divisible by 4, you exchange 1 slot for a "magic slot".

    "Magic Slots" will probably be something along the lines of:

    1: Use Charisma to hit instead of normal ability score modifier.
    .5: Deals a single type of energy damage as well as the normal type of damage (so Fire+Bludgeoning, or Sonic+Slashing. Essentially, it would be affected by the least effective of either DR or Energy Resistance.)

    And the like.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Well, the idea for "magic" is that you get X extra slots, and then at every level divisible by 4, you exchange 1 slot for a "magic slot".

    "Magic Slots" will probably be something along the lines of:

    1: Use Charisma to hit instead of normal ability score modifier.
    .5: Deals a single type of energy damage as well as the normal type of damage (so Fire+Bludgeoning, or Sonic+Slashing. Essentially, it would be affected by the least effective of either DR or Energy Resistance.)

    And the like.
    I dunno. I'll have to think on it. I already have the seed of an idea how I'd like actual magic items to work, and this is pretty radically different from what I was thinking, while not being much further developed than what I have in mind.

    Like ideally, I'd like to see actual magic items be basically the incarnum subsystem, but everyone uses it for actual items. Magic items do things that are interesting, and you can invest more essentia/essence/whatever, to make that item more powerful. So you can have a character with a couple of magic items bound strongly, or a character with a dozen magic items bound loosely, and both should be equally viable.

    But all of the +x hit/damage, or +y stat, or +z to a skill, should be pretty much gone. Where needed those could be rolled into levelup stats, but you can already see where my goal has been to roll the +damage portion of magic weapons into the more mundane side of things, so ideally all that would be needed is a base save increase, and some +stats.

    The devil of course is in the details, coming up with conversions for a couple hundred magic items to keep them interesting is a lot of long boring work, which is why months later I still haven't gotten around to doing it :(.






    As an aside, I am working on updating and reformatting all of the information. I've currently got the majority of it done. I need to update Making New Weapons, Special Materials, and write up Weapon/Armor feats still. That first section should be pretty quick to update, but the materials I think need to be overhauled, especially the armor benefits now that I've changed up the armor bases, so making special materials give heavier armor a much higher benefit isn't needed.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Incarnum is a decent system to use for magical items...

    You know what would be interesting? If you "built" your magic; for example, you have a single, main effect, and each character gets to make a "personal" effect.

    So your Magic Boots of Awesome would be different than if someone else uses them.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I just want to comment-Holy **** this project has grown a lot. Right now, I just pasted out of notepad and into word to do a wordcount: The document is 23 pages long, representing 5,725 words, and 31,708 characters. I have no idea what the post limit is here, but I get the feeling that's pushing it.

    And this still doesn't have the updated special materials :/


    You know what would be interesting? If you "built" your magic; for example, you have a single, main effect, and each character gets to make a "personal" effect.

    So your Magic Boots of Awesome would be different than if someone else uses them.
    Out of curiosity, how would you codify that? Everyone getting a custom effect is cool in theory, but to make it an actual system you need to be able to categorize it. And if you make the personalization too deep, you loose a lot of the difference between items. I'd rather have items that are more meaningful when you get them, than have "get any item you can find and have the same basic effects"
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I mean that everyone picks something from a list; something equivalent to a skill trick, say, and then gains access to it in relation to your magical items.

    For example. one could be repairing damage to your magical item; another could be, I dunno, that you magic item works within a certain radius, without you even touching it.

    Or such-like.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I just want to comment-Holy **** this project has grown a lot. Right now, I just pasted out of notepad and into word to do a wordcount: The document is 23 pages long, representing 5,725 words, and 31,708 characters. I have no idea what the post limit is here, but I get the feeling that's pushing it.

    And this still doesn't have the updated special materials :/
    You got room yet, the character limit is 50k on posts, I believe.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Huh well that's good to know. For some reason I thought I was already pushing that cap. This means I can update what I have now into the first post, and still have some room to grow and make the second post special materials and possibly magic properties.

    I guess I'll go ahead and update now.



    edit: And the first two posts are now updated. I did rework the armor a bit more from the draft I posted earlier, to the point where I got what I feel is a well working system out of it. I also reintroduced the armors I had previously cut, giving them a few points worth of properties to differentiate them from the other armors. Though the properties chosen had no particular reason, so if they strike you as too weird or something else would fit better, I'm open to suggestion there.

    I also did decide to go with the second option for balancing weapon damage, because I felt the scaling towards the extremes worked better, and if I intend to allow more stuff that boosts slots at the late game, that could end up making or breaking the system, as it is the difference between the weapon having 12d6 base damage or 4d8 base damage. Quite a large gap, that only gets bigger the further the scaling goes.

    As for the special materials, I did update the post on them, but it was primarily just getting rid of the different benefits for different classes of armor, and making all armor gain the same benefit. I would still love suggestions on other properties for armors (or weapons) that would be fitting. Things that are more on the supernatural end of things are preferred.

    I'm also considering having some of those armor properties scale with level somehow. While getting 1d6 fire damage from a dragonbone weapon is nice around level 6, by higher levels you're better off just getting a bonus slot weapon. But then I'm not sure how much sense you being stronger making your weapons and armor stronger works. Any opinions on this?
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-10-03 at 12:12 PM.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Have it deal amalgam damage between fire and whatever damage type it was originally, and then deal an extra 1d6 damage.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Have it deal amalgam damage between fire and whatever damage type it was originally, and then deal an extra 1d6 damage.
    I guess that could work. Though I'd probably make it one extra [weapon] die, and have it give no bonus slots. So you could have a 10 slot weapon (maximum damage 2d10 I believe, at 8.5 slots invested in damage. Alternatively 4d4 costs 7 slots. Raising any further for either takes it above 10, though with Greater Weapon Focus you could technically get a 2d12 damage), vs a 13 slot maximum with other materials.


    Also, any other suggestions for properties for special materials? Offensive or defensive. I'll probably do a dive through MIC or something soon.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    When I first went over the original version of this, I thought it was awesome. Now I see the current version, and I am awestruck. This is a masterpiece of homebrew. I love it.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I can make almost exactly the same weapon with Jiriku's (Top of page 3) and Seerow's (OP's) methods of creating weapons.
    (Assuming I understand Seerow's right, his is a bit fuzzy when it comes to double weapons)

    Jiriku's method:
    Spoiler
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    9 slots:

    Exotic 0
    Double Weapon 2
    Monk 2
    slashing 1
    finesse 1
    dirt cheap 1
    reach + adjacent 2
    20/x2 0
    1d1 damage 0

    Exotic 0
    double weapon 2
    monk 2
    bludgeoning 1
    finesse 1
    dirt cheap 1
    Trip 1
    20/x2 0
    1d4 damage 1


    1d1 slashing (reach + adjacent) 20/x2 // 1d4 bludgeoning (Adjacent, tripping) 20/x2
    Exotic, Monk, finesse, "dirt cheap", double weapon.

    (If remove "dirt cheap")
    1d4 slashing (reach + adjacent) 20/x2 // 1d4 bludgeoning (adjacent, tripping) 19-20/x2
    Exotic, Monk, finesse, double weapon.



    Seerow's Method:
    Spoiler
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    8 slots

    exotic (0)
    Two Handed (0)
    d4 base
    20/x2 base
    Finessible (1)
    Monk Weapon (1)
    Double weapon (2)
    Bludgeoning | Slashing
    Tripping (.5) | Reach (1), +adjacent (really reach x2) (+1 (=2))
    Increase threat range (1) | Settable (.5)

    1d4 slashing (reach + adjacent, settable against a Charge) 20/x2 // 1d4 bludgeoning (adjacent, tripping) 19-20/x2
    Exotic, Monk, finessible, double weapon.


    In both cases, it ends up being a double weapon, dealing 1d4 damage on either end. It has a slashing side, which can hit adjacent or reach, and a bludgeoning side, which isn't reach-able, but can be used to trip, and has a 19-20 crit range.
    Both are exotic, finessible monk weapons.

    The only difference is that with Seerow's method, the slashing side can be set against a charge, because I had half a point left over.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Crossbows got shafted pretty hard, didn't they? Light Crossbows are no longer "one handed" so to speak, while nothing but easy load crossbows actually have a listed reload speed.

    Rather than keep it as is, I recommend that you bump the crossbow up from a base 4 to a base 5, then have reloading be a standard action; it can cost a slot (or half a slot) to move that reload down to a move action. Maybe add a trait that let's it be used as a one handed weapon, with the Hand Crossbow Trait letting it be used as a Light weapon.

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