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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    [QUOTE=NineThePuma;12241515]The wonk had more to do with the way the rules are laid out. It's not very clear that armors start with 0 AC and 0 max dex mod, and it's relatively easy to assume that you missed something in there.

    On the other hand, having 3 AC/3 MD/0 ACP/Resistance 5 or so to F/A/C/E was totally worth it.

    Hmmm... Would it be possible to add faults to armor in return for more slots, or would that be a horrible thing? *Is thinking something like an elemental vulnerability*

    That's actually basically what ACP already is (you take ACP to get bonus slots to spend on other things). I suppose we could add other stuff in along with it, and make it "max X slots worth of negative slots"

    I'll see about updating it in a bit.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Well, while you're tinkering, I'm gonna do some math and figure out what the "most optimal" DPR weapon is, though I suspect that it's the 4d4 (18-20/x4) and figure out where the "breakpoints" are.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Well, while you're tinkering, I'm gonna do some math and figure out what the "most optimal" DPR weapon is, though I suspect that it's the 4d4 (18-20/x4) and figure out where the "breakpoints" are.
    That's what 11 slots? A two handed exotic is 8, if materials were changed so they only gave one or two bonus slots that wouldn't be possible, even with a custom built weapon, unless you spent a feat on weapon spec and gave up the best benefit of it (that is being able to switch **** around at will. Because spending a swift action to get a +4 to any maneuver or **** like that is nice).

    Also don't forget to compare stuff like deadly (+crit confirm is generally underrated).
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I'm just doing raw "by the numbers" stuff.

    And that's actually 13 slots, IIRC.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    I'm just doing raw "by the numbers" stuff.

    And that's actually 13 slots, IIRC.
    Yeah you're right, it's 13. I typed 11 but was thinking 13 (8+2 masterwork+1 material = 11, so would have been possible with 11 slots).


    But based on the numbers I ran earlier, 18-20x4 is actually slightly more efficient damagewise for what it does than the other crit bonuses. And of course, in a no-weapon damage scaling environment crit almost always scales better, so you'll probably find going all out on crit is the way to go.

    I would be curious to see how the weapon damage scaling thing I linked you alters that though. I can see that making weapon damage valuable enough to outweigh crit at some point.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I'm using Nonsi's math rather than yours, but getting 18-20/x4 is STRICTLY INFERIOR for a very long time. It costs a base 6, while, for similar, you can get a 2d6 weapon that deals on average 140 damage over 20 rounds versus the 70 damage a 1d4 (18-20/x4) weapon does.

    {table] slots| max crit| damage scaling

    6|70|140(+1.5 slots)
    7|98|180(+.5 slots)
    8|126|220(+.5)
    9|154|220(+1.5)
    10|182|260
    11|196(+.5)|280[/table]

    I'm gonna do some calcs based on the crit stuff being worth (.5) slots instead of (1) and see if that changes things, but it seems like crit scaling is strictly worse at an given point.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    {table] slots| max crit| damage scaling

    3|70|110
    4|98|130
    5|126|140(+.5)
    6|154|140(+1.5)
    7|182|200
    8|196(+.5)|200(+1)
    9|196(+1.5)|220(+.5)
    10|280|220(+1.5)
    11|280(+1)|280[/table].
    Altered calcs based on reduced crit modification cost.

    I think these speak for themselves.

    {table] slots| max crit| damage scaling

    3|70|110
    4|98|130
    5|126|140(+.5)
    6|154|160(+.5)
    7|182|200
    8|196(+.5)|200(+1)
    9|224(+.5)|220(+.5)
    10|280|240(+.5)
    11|280(+1)|280[/table]

    I decided to add the Brutal property to the areas that are patchy or otherwise there were enough slots for it. I also have math in front of me taking it up to 13 slots.
    Last edited by NineThePuma; 2011-11-18 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    For the numbers you're running, what are the stats of the character using them? What sort of damage mods are they using, what level?

    It looks like you're comparing with a set character their damage per (hit? round?) at each slot value with a max crit weapon and a max damage weapon, but there's still a lot of other variables, unless I missed something major.



    Also, I updated the custom armor creation rules. Toned the potential of tower shields down a bit, and reduced customizability of armor and shields by putting minimum armor bonus and a maximum bonus for scaleable armor traits. Also put in more options for the penalties.

    Let me know if anything still seems unclear.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I'm using Nonsi's stuff from... Page 3? And I'm comparing the weapons alone, right now; my original plan was to figure out what the "best" weapon was for each set of slots, but the damage scales so much better than crits that I got sidetracked.

    I'm assuming a Str 10 character for all of these calculations. Adding even +1 damage from strength will skew the numbers much better toward max crit; just a rough guestimate, but I'll crunch the numbers.

    Edit:
    Based on the way I'm crunching numbers, you need at least 12 points of "extra damage" on the original 6 slot for max crit; that is the point where Max Crit starts out damaging maximum damage with a "6 slot" weapon. It's much earlier with my reduced cost
    Last edited by NineThePuma; 2011-11-18 at 08:33 PM.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Also to be clear, the reason I say it seems like those numbers are off is because it sounds like you're just comparing the base weapon damage with nothing at all, which isn't at all accurate. Just as a quick example:


    At 8 slots:
    Baseline Crit Weapon (d6 damage, 18-20x4 crit, +4 crit confirms)
    Baseline Damage Weapon (4d4, 19-20x2 crit)

    No Damage Bonuses at all, 50% average hit chance:

    Crit Weapon
    1-10: 0 damage
    11-17: 3.5 damage
    18-20: 10.85 damage (70% 14 damage, 30% 3.5 damage)

    Average: 2.8525 damage per round


    No Damage Bonuses at all, 50% average hit chance:

    Crit Weapon
    1-10: 0 damage
    11-18: 10 damage
    19-20: 15 damage (50% 20 damage, 50% 10 damage)

    Average: 5.5 damage per round.



    In this case, the base damage is clearly superior. But let's take the same weapons and add a flat +50 damage to both.


    Crit Weapon
    1-10: 0 damage
    11-17: 53.5 damage
    18-20: 165.85 damage (70% 214 damage, 30% 53.5 damage)

    Average: 43.575


    Base Damage Weapon
    1-10: 0 damage
    11-18: 60 damage
    19-20: 90 damage (50% 120 damage, 50% 60 damage)

    Average: 33 damage


    Now we see the crit weapon clearly pulls ahead, because the flat weapon damage works so much better with it.


    edit: Got ninjad
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-11-18 at 08:30 PM.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    I edited my post with more math thoughts, but you ninja'd my edit.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Heavy Thrown-A thrown weapon with this property allows the wielder to use his strength modifier for attack rolls, rather than damage.
    Shouldn't that be "rather than dexterity"? Or do you gain your strength to attack rolls but no longer benefit from it for damage?
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Terazul View Post
    Shouldn't that be "rather than dexterity"? Or do you gain your strength to attack rolls but no longer benefit from it for damage?
    You're right, good catch. I'll edit that in.



    Also, I'm thinking about breaking up masterwork some. Instead of just 1 masterwork for 2 bonus slots, and special material for an extra, I'm thinking 3 stages of masterwork, priced so they're appropriate for 2nd/4th/6th level characters, giving 1/2/3 slots. Making a special material weapon requires the highest quality masterwork.

    This makes it a little bit easier to balance and gives a better gradiant. This is especially useful for the armor where the bonuses make a much bigger difference at low levels. (Having +2 extra AC or +8 resistance or DR/- at level 1 is a huge deal. Having it at level 4-6 not so much)


    Edit: Also just realized I lack a defensive property, a la a parrying dagger type deal, that gives you +2 AC when held in the offhand. Does anyone have an argument to not include something along these lines [assume that it will be worded such that it is explicitly nonstacking, likely a shield bonus]
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-11-23 at 12:10 AM.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    "You already have something like that"?

    *points to the Buckler-Axe's property* (26, IIRC)

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    "You already have something like that"?

    *points to the Buckler-Axe's property* (26, IIRC)

    Looking at it again, I think I can modify that to fit what I want, but don't like the way it is currently. Like I mentioned I'm thinking parrying dagger, where battle shield is basically a shield that's a part of the weapon. However, I could change battle shield to a more general "defensive" property, up the bonus to +2, while eliminating the ability to masterwork the shield part of it. Then that makes the buckler axe a defensive weapon that has the shield just as a part of the fluff, and you can make a parrying dagger using the same property without having to worry about looking funny having half a shield attached to your dagger.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Would it be a shield bonus?

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Would it be a shield bonus?
    Yes, still a shield bonus. Just not necessarily a shield by fluff. A small distinction to be sure, but I think it's worth making, because the guy using a regular dagger in his offhand to parry weapons is a real thing that should be representable, even moreso than a lot of these other properties.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    That turns me off of it slightly, then.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    That turns me off of it slightly, then.
    What would you suggest instead?

    I'd ideally like it to be something explicitly not stackable (so you don't get defending bootknives, armorspikes, helmspike, gloves, etc). The idea is you hold this in your offhand instead of a shield, it's not quite as good as a fullblown shield since you can't enhance it the same way and lack access to the shield feats, but it has the advantage in being relatively cheap and without the normal shield penalties (mainly ACP).
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    If you're not able to enhance the defensive properties, then it's largely useless in the long run. Yes, it's cheap, but I can just as easily pick up a Mythril Heavy Shield for largely the the same benefit. Or, baator, just get a +1 animated heavy shield.

    It strikes me more as something that is represented more in a fighting style than a weapon.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    If you're not able to enhance the defensive properties, then it's largely useless in the long run. Yes, it's cheap, but I can just as easily pick up a Mythril Heavy Shield for largely the the same benefit. Or, baator, just get a +1 animated heavy shield.

    It strikes me more as something that is represented more in a fighting style than a weapon.
    Well I was figuring it would fit best with two weapon fighting and einhander, both of which get some bonus AC as well. Then again, both of those are also capable of working with shields at the moment.

    One problem I have with changing the typing of the bonus is that it would allow the shield user to pick up the property on their shield spike, and suddenly they get both bonuses.



    Hrm.. what about this? You can't enchant or masterwork your weapon as a shield, but your enhancement bonus on the weapon does apply to the defending bonus. This makes it a much cheaper option, but a less defensive one (as you only get the AC bonus, and can't get the extra fun magic armor properties or masterwork bonuses). On the other end of things, I'd make it so shield spikes work similarly, but the other way around (ie make your spike into a viable baseline weapon, but can't be masterworked or enchanted as a weapon. Your ehancement bonus to armor becomes the enhancement value of the weapon).

    So your choice of shield vs offhand defensive weapon comes down to if you want to be more defense oriented or more offense oriented, and lets you save some money by getting both offensive and defensive benefit out of the enchantment.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    That sounds functional, at least.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Updated OP with Defensive Property and Spikes as described above.


    Any opinion on the different values of masterwork? And if you think it's a good idea, any ideas on names for the 3 ratings?
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    The improving masterwork split sounds good.

    There was a "Masterwork but better" that was in a dragon magazine; I think it was Dwarven Craft. Maybe make it a "quality" thing? Mastercraft, could be a filler between the two.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    About the Talenta Sharrash, if you check out for the errata of the dragonlance books you can find that this weapon does not have the proper stats.

    proof here ---> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

    Page 120: Weapons Table
    The Talenta sharrash should have a critical threat range
    of 19–20/x2, not 19–20/x4.
    Last edited by snowboule; 2011-11-23 at 09:56 AM.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Base Weapon Types:
    Melee Weapons
    Light Weapons-A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand.

    One-Handed- A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or ˝ his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. A One-Handed weapon may be used in two hands and gain 1˝ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage.

    Two-Handed-Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1˝ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
    I've never understood the effective strength-penalty (1/2 instead of 1 for rolling damage) to offhand weapons. I can see the attack-roll penalty, because most people favor either one hand or the other, and are less accurate when using their off-hand, but both of your arms are equally strong (unless you are a professional arm-wrestler or something).

    For simplicities sake, will it break anything to badly if we just apply our normal strength bonus to any attack made 1-handed, and twice our strength bonus to any attack made 2-handed?

    Maybe save the 1-and-a-half rule for special situations, like using a 1-handed weapon in both hands.


    P.S. I love the slot rule for weapon modification.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2011-11-23 at 09:40 AM.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by snowboule View Post
    About the Talenta Sharrash, if you check out for the errata of the dragonlance books you can find that this weapon does not have the proper stats.

    proof here ---> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

    Page 120: Weapons Table
    The Talenta sharrash should have a critical threat range
    of 19–20/x2, not 19–20/x4.
    I know. When I designed it, it was based off the original, because tricked out scythes without a x4 crit modifier are just wrong. Also note the weapon is Masterwork only. If you want to have the errata'd version, the cost of dropping the x4 to x2 would probably drop it back to being non-Masterwork. Not sure how it's currently working with Masterwork being shifted into a more modular model but that's how it was. It's also from Eberron, not Dragonlance. Dragonlance is the purveyer of kender weaponry, strange as they are.

    As for the battle shield to defensive property conversion, I suppose it looks alright. Less of a hassle and you don't have to deal with the buckler situation where if you use it to attack with the weapon, you lose the AC bonus, not to mention the minor issue that it can't be fully enchanted on both sides pre-epic, since it'd hit the pre-epic cost cap. Good job sidestepping the Defending issue, too. I make the Defending bonus a Competence bonus precisely because of that problem whenever I run games (as infrequent as that is ).
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2011-11-23 at 10:15 AM.
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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    True my mistake haha for dragonlance, and true it seemed weird to me the errata at the time anyway

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Spent some time screwing around building a weapon; ended up with an Exotic Light that has Concealable, Non-threatening, Sudden Draw, Deadly2 and an 18-20/x2 threat range. It's not amazing, but it's pretty damn amusing to imagine. It was inspired by the Hidden Blade from AC, and I just wish there were more ways to Flat Foot people against an attack so I could pull off ridiculous Iaijutsu Spamming. Oh well.

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    Default Re: [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More (Updated 6/18)

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Spent some time screwing around building a weapon; ended up with an Exotic Light that has Concealable, Non-threatening, Sudden Draw, Deadly2 and an 18-20/x2 threat range. It's not amazing, but it's pretty damn amusing to imagine. It was inspired by the Hidden Blade from AC, and I just wish there were more ways to Flat Foot people against an attack so I could pull off ridiculous Iaijutsu Spamming. Oh well.
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