[D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More

[Dr.Orpheus]

Something D&D forgot is the power of an arrow. The range needs to be decreased slightly (which I see you have done except crossbows should have even less range, but should be easier to hit with) and the damage needs to be increased for both bows and crossbows. Historically speaking during the 100 year war France lost all battles for the first portion because they were always out of range with there crossbows, and the English aiming there bow's to fire in a high arc could get a 2.5-3 ft. arrow to come down on there head and go strait through the brain and the neck so that only a inch of arrow was left left sticking out the top of the helmet. Arrows and bolts kill people more effectively because they are fast moving and piercing, lances when mounted can inflict terrible wounds because of the horses speed firing a bow releases a far faster projectile which is harder to block, and can leave deeper wounds because it has a smaller tip and can thus focus its energy into a smaller space. This will outweigh the fact you will not have the weight of a horse behind your blow. Piercing weapons have the deepest wounds, and depth maters most for determining whether a wound will reach through the fat, muscle, and bone to get to the organs which is where you deal the most damage. Over all though you did a great job reworking the other weapons.

[Seerow]

Honestly, Bows and Crossbows are strong enough as is now. They are roughly on par with an equivalent melee weapon, but usable from range. They lose out slightly from needing to spend a slot for +str to damage, but they gain that back and then some with the ability to use masterwork arrows, which gives them 2-3 more slots than the equivalent melee weapon.

If you still think archery is too weak, try checking out the weapon styles in my sig. They replace most of the archery feats, and give Archery dexterity to damage, ranged control ability, and the ability to use power attack with a favorable return, easily making them on par with the equivalent melee styles.



If what you want is arrows that kill people instantly, far more efficiently than melee from 50-100ft away, I'm just going to say no to that. My goal here is not realism (though that does factor in some) as much as balance. Using your logic for arrows doing more damage, rapiers should also do far more damage. Their ability to pierce and hit critical targets more frequently is represented in their critical damage increase, or crit chance increase.

[Cieyrin]

If what you want is arrows that kill people instantly, far more efficiently than melee from 50-100ft away, I'm just going to say no to that. My goal here is not realism (though that does factor in some) as much as balance. Using your logic for arrows doing more damage, rapiers should also do far more damage. Their ability to pierce and hit critical targets more frequently is represented in their critical damage increase, or crit chance increase.

Which bows do anyways, what with the x3 crit mod. So I think we're good, don't you think?

[Dr.Orpheus]

Honestly, Bows and Crossbows are strong enough as is now. They are roughly on par with an equivalent melee weapon, but usable from range. They lose out slightly from needing to spend a slot for +str to damage, but they gain that back and then some with the ability to use masterwork arrows, which gives them 2-3 more slots than the equivalent melee weapon.

If you still think archery is too weak, try checking out the weapon styles in my sig. They replace most of the archery feats, and give Archery dexterity to damage, ranged control ability, and the ability to use power attack with a favorable return, easily making them on par with the equivalent melee styles.

If what you want is arrows that kill people instantly, far more efficiently than melee from 50-100ft away, I'm just going to say no to that. My goal here is not realism (though that does factor in some) as much as balance. Using your logic for arrows doing more damage, rapiers should also do far more damage. Their ability to pierce and hit critical targets more frequently is represented in their critical damage increase, or crit chance increase.

I tend to think all weapons are weak and adding to the rapier may be a good idea seeing that the nature of their flexible blade is not taken in to account, but you are right to change these for balance sake rather than realism because a game will never be truly realistic and still be a game. It instead would be fighting with actual weapons. However you could make a more realistic game (see above, maybe increasing the treat range instead of the damage, and maybe increasing the penalty for firing multiple range increments which I should have mentioned), but do so in a way that is still realistic.

Which bows do anyways, what with the x3 crit mod. So I think we're good, don't you think?

If you value the multiplier more than the threat range you could get a scythe (the threat range is a bit better though statistically speaking so I would get a Geatsword or Greatclub) .5 higher average damage, and x4 crit. It has no range, but you don't provoke AoO's from melee combatants, add str to damage , and need no ammo it is the same . So let's just say the bow is not the best, which it does not have to be.

[flabort]

Not quite a month, I think, so I don't think I'm necroing (I hope not), but I do have a genuine question.

Someone in This thread here, which is about dual wielding two 2H weapons because you have 4 hands, brought up wielding a weapon with more than two hands. The ridiculous damage brought about by wielding a weapon that way (by that way, I mean with 32 hands) was discussed.

But someone mentioned, to wield a weapon like that, it needs to be specifically build for it. So, say you wanted a 3H weapon. Would I just use the 2H weapon points (4, 5, or 8), or would I have more points (5, 6, or 9, perhaps)?

So say I had 4 hands, and had a simple light weapon; lets say I used the two slots on tripping and increasing the damage dice. I use this as my off hand weapon. I also have a massive 3H weapon, lets say it were martial (but due to having fighter levels could use it). IF this let me take more slots, say it gave me 6, would I be able to have it do 2d4 damage, take brutal, and knockback?

[Seerow]

IF this let me take more slots, say it gave me 6, would I be able to have it do 2d4 damage, take brutal, and knockback?

Given that IF then:

2d4 = 2.5 slots
Brutal = 1 slot
Knockback = .5 slots

So yes, you could get all of that for 4 slots, you'd be able to get it even with a simple two handed weapon, no extra slots needed.




As for bonus slots for requiring more hands, I'd personally say no. Just give it standard two handed stats.

[flabort]

Whoop, I typed 2d4, meant 2d6.

But, simple two handed stats. OK.

... Not even for a couple extra hundred gold? Perhaps a few candies your way?
But I see. But including a clause saying "A weapon designed for more than two hands still only uses two handed weapon stats" on the OP... may or may not be a good idea, your choice.

[Seerow]

Whoop, I typed 2d4, meant 2d6.

But, simple two handed stats. OK.

... Not even for a couple extra hundred gold? Perhaps a few candies your way?
But I see. But including a clause saying "A weapon designed for more than two hands still only uses two handed weapon stats" on the OP... may or may not be a good idea, your choice.

2d6 would bring that up from 4 slots to 6 slots, so yes would be doable with your 3 handed martial weapon assuming the DM let you have a bonus slot for multihanded weapons.

The problem I have with letting people get hugely better stuff for more-handed weapons is there's all sorts of extra hand cheese out there, and then you end up with someone crying about how my system let their player make a 50 slot weapon for their 40 armed freak player. It's better to just stick to the normal rules for multi-handed weapons (that is, use regular weapons, get your multi armed benefits from wielding more of them). Though I do seem to remember a rule (can't remember if it was optional, homebrew, or real) that let a character get an extra .5 str multiplier for each extra hand on the weapon. That might be up your alley.

Of course, this is all homebrew, and it is a tabletop RPG, if your DM (or you if you're the DM) thinks it's acceptable for a really big weapon specially designed to be used with more than 2 arms, and gets benefits out of doing so, that's within his power, just not something I would personally get behind.

[flabort]

Maybe, if you DID allow extra slots, you could remove the rule, and add an extra upgrade just for weapons for 3 or more hands to reinstate adding 1/2 damage for an extra hand.

...maybe. That way, if you spend your slots on that, it would be like wielding a normal 2H weapon with X hands, but you can trade out the extra multiplier for something else?

BTW, from the linked thread, someone said that rule was from Savage Species. Same place that says the weapon has to be specifically built to accommodate those extra hands.

[Cieyrin]

BTW, from the linked thread, someone said that rule was from Savage Species. Same place that says the weapon has to be specifically built to accommodate those extra hands.

Yep, it is. The justification is there normally isn't enough weapon to grip to bring the leverage there. How that works with hafted weapons, I have no idea.

[Seerow]

Yep, it is. The justification is there normally isn't enough weapon to grip to bring the leverage there. How that works with hafted weapons, I have no idea.

Honestly I have trouble imagining how more than 4 hands can be used on a single weapon, even with a longer hilt. Eventually the swing motion of the arms is going to be too far apart so it won't work. Even 4 is pretty hard, but I can imagine it as doable.



Anyway I think I am going to take some time and, update the masterworking rules, and probably put in some crafting/purchasing rules to go along with it. For the quality tiers I'm thinking:

-Common
-Exceptional (~300 GP cost)
-Superior (~1800 GP cost)
-Master (~4300 GP cost)

Which makes it cost ~1/3 of WBL for 2/4/6 respectively. Until I get around to doing an actual magic item overhaul, Exceptional Quality becomes free with a +1-3 weapon/armor, Superior becomes free with a +4-6 weapon/armor, and Master becomes free with a +7 or higher weapon/armor.

For crafting DCs I'm thinking DC 10 for any simple weapon, DC 15 for Martial, DC 20 for Exotic. Add +5 DC for Exceptional, Superior, and Master. So a Master Exotic Weapon requires a DC35 craft (aka requires a pretty good crafter), while a common simple weapon can be made by anyone with a little downtime with little to no training.


Then for base weapon costs, I'm thinking standardize it as:

Simple Light - 5sp
Simple One-Hand- 1gp
Simple Two-Hand- 2gp

Martial Light- 2gp
Martial One-Hand- 4gp
Martial Two-Hand- 8gp

Exotic Light-8gp
Exotic One-Hand-16gp
Exotic Two-Hand-32gp

With the extra note that crafting an exotic weapon takes the same materials as a martial weapon, the extra cost there comes from the extra work for the crafter (much the same way that masterwork does). So an Exotic Light Weapon would cost as much to craft as a Martial Light Weapon (so 30% of 2gp, or 6sp).





Anyone have any thoughts on this? Anything that needs to be changed before formalizing it and updating the OP?

[NineThePuma]

How would someone go about making a DC 35 craft check?

Wouldn't it be easier to do it the same way it's done normally, with a separate "masterwork" craft check?

[Cieyrin]

How would someone go about making a DC 35 craft check?

Wouldn't it be easier to do it the same way it's done normally, with a separate "masterwork" craft check?

There are magic forges in Races of Stone that give +20 to Craft(Weaponsmithing) and (Armorsmithing), respectively, if you just want to throw gold at it. A dedicated Weaponsmith that didn't bother with said forge would probably be a Dwarf Expert with a high Int, Skill Focus, masterwork tools and lower level assistants to Aid the check. At 1st level on an Elite array, metal or stone weaponry on such a crafter would have a bonus of +13, +11 for wooden or other non-metal/stone weaponry. By 4th level, the bonus has risen to +17 by himself, +21 with 2 1st level assistants. With a bit more investment, you can see its not difficult to achieve such results, its just a matter of properly kitting out the hirelings. What did you think Leadership was for? It wasn't for making armies or a second character.

[Hanuman]

I do like the swordchucks as I'm a trained user IRL, but I didn't see dueling shields on the list, which IMO are a much more impressive and badass weapon. Swordchucks have a novelty though.

[Seerow]

There are magic forges in Races of Stone that give +20 to Craft(Weaponsmithing) and (Armorsmithing), respectively, if you just want to throw gold at it. A dedicated Weaponsmith that didn't bother with said forge would probably be a Dwarf Expert with a high Int, Skill Focus, masterwork tools and lower level assistants to Aid the check. At 1st level on an Elite array, metal or stone weaponry on such a crafter would have a bonus of +13, +11 for wooden or other non-metal/stone weaponry. By 4th level, the bonus has risen to +17 by himself, +21 with 2 1st level assistants. With a bit more investment, you can see its not difficult to achieve such results, its just a matter of properly kitting out the hirelings. What did you think Leadership was for? It wasn't for making armies or a second character.

Pretty much this. But I was also thinking including a DC shift that could be taken to increase/decrease the base time. So if base time to make a item is 1 week, you could double it to 2 weeks for a -5 to the DC, and double it again to a month for -10 to the DC. Then the other way around, you could make it in a few days for +5, and in a single day for +10. A DC25 is low enough that an above average or merely high level crafter can make the best weapons in the game, but at the expense of taking longer. Meanwhile a legendary crafter could churn out one of these daily, making a fair bit of profit for themselves.

I do like the swordchucks as I'm a trained user IRL, but I didn't see dueling shields on the list, which IMO are a much more impressive and badass weapon. Swordchucks have a novelty though.

Swordchucks were added in for fun more or less. But what exactly is the difference between a regular shield and a dueling shield? If you can answer that I'll see what I can do.

[Hanuman]

Swordchucks were added in for fun more or less. But what exactly is the difference between a regular shield and a dueling shield? If you can answer that I'll see what I can do.

Yeah, gyrespikes (the dnd sword-mace) are much more efficient, you can only really use the angled head while the swung head's blade cannot be angled, so having a weapon that doesn't require an angle works fine. The two about swordchucks is that theres much lighter, more compactable and more efficient weapons that are similar (not gyrespike) in real life, the second thing is that DnD is a world of magic, and when you start altering physics you open up a huge array of viable tools for injury that use mechanics both physical and magical. Even something minor like being able to angle the swung weight with the held sword's blade would make it viable, let alone a character with at least DR1 being so much less viable to injury in a combat scenario.


Dueling shields are 2 handed shields with weaponized tips, they are lemon shaped with 4 catches on them that can catch other weapons or dueling shields. It is a pretty old practice but there should be some references somewhere.

[Cieyrin]

Yeah, gyrespikes (the dnd sword-mace) are much more efficient, you can only really use the angled head while the swung head's blade cannot be angled, so having a weapon that doesn't require an angle works fine. The two about swordchucks is that theres much lighter, more compactable and more efficient weapons that are similar (not gyrespike) in real life, the second thing is that DnD is a world of magic, and when you start altering physics you open up a huge array of viable tools for injury that use mechanics both physical and magical. Even something minor like being able to angle the swung weight with the held sword's blade would make it viable, let alone a character with at least DR1 being so much less viable to injury in a combat scenario.

Wait, gyrspikes are real? Like, real people used the crazy things without braining themselves or someone else that isn't their target?!? I...I need to sit down...

[Spiryt]

I think he may refer to something like that:

Spoiler

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or many other funky spiky dueling swords depicted in Talhoffer's Fechtbuchs for example.

Gyrspike as depicted in D&D is probably too crazy even for dueling use, and I've never seen anything even remotely like that. Kusarigama is probably closest.

And dueling shield is something like that:

Spoiler

Show

[Seerow]

So a dueling shield is basically a spiked tower shield used as a two handed weapon. I can swing that.

Still not quite clear on the gyrespike, that picture doesn't look too different to a normal bladed weapon to me.


Edit: Added tower shield spike as a two-handed martial weapon, with 2d6 damage and the knockback property. So someone can have a tower shield + weapon, or just two hand a tower shield after spending the armor slot on spikes. As per the normal spikes rules, the weapon part can't be masterworked or enchanted, but gains an automatic enhancement bonus to hit and damage equal to any enhancement bonus to the Shield AC.

[Cieyrin]

Edit: Added tower shield spike as a two-handed martial weapon, with 2d6 damage and the knockback property. So someone can have a tower shield + weapon, or just two hand a tower shield after spending the armor slot on spikes. As per the normal spikes rules, the weapon part can't be masterworked or enchanted, but gains an automatic enhancement bonus to hit and damage equal to any enhancement bonus to the Shield AC.

Confused me when looking for it to see it in SRD weapons, considering you can't normally use it in a shield bash by Core rules. Shouldn't it be in New Weapons?

Incidentally, when I was looking around for it and checking the special ability numbers, Ramhammers have Arc instead of Knockback.

[Seerow]

Confused me when looking for it to see it in SRD weapons, considering you can't normally use it in a shield bash by Core rules. Shouldn't it be in New Weapons?

Good point, but I figured all shield spikes are in the core rules. The restriction on tower shield not being able to bash wasn't carried over in my tower shield write up, so I didn't think of it as something new.

Incidentally, when I was looking around for it and checking the special ability numbers, Ramhammers have Arc instead of Knockback.

I'll fix that in a second.




Also I just put up the different weapon qualities, and costs/crafting rules.

[LordErebus12]

Seerow, your a genius for this. (so are those who helped )
im gonna use section 4 from now on.

[Partysan]

I'd pick a dueling shield more as a tripping weapon actually. They have hooks well suited (and intended) to pull an opponent to the ground. Seems more fitting than knockback.
If you want to fiind out more about that there was a documentation that showed a short fight with them, I'll have to look for that though.

EDIT: It was Weapons that made Britain.

[Hanuman]

Wait, gyrspikes are real? Like, real people used the crazy things without braining themselves or someone else that isn't their target?!? I...I need to sit down...

It's just a hybridized weapon, you need to learn the physics and training of other weapons over a few thousand hours before it really clears up.
I was a professional fire performer for 3 years, I developed swordchucks as a fire prop as they don't need to hit with a blade and the wicks are cylindrical. Problem was I don't have enough to fund the project properly right now, so it's suspended in beta stage right now without a model that doesn't melt your hands off (optimum form turned out to be too hot, hotter than any existing firetool and requires aluminized kevlar protective gloves, similar to steel-mill protection).

As for Gyrspike*, here's an image (5th from left):

There's a more detailed picture on Arms and Equipment Guide pg. 9 or in Sword and Fist pg. 72.

It's a sword that has a flail in place of a tassel.

Gyrspikes themselves aren't an established weapon, but most of their physics are established in weapons such as nunchaku, double meteor hammer, ect.

If you have any more questions feel free to shoot.

I'd pick a dueling shield more as a tripping weapon actually. They have hooks well suited (and intended) to pull an opponent to the ground. Seems more fitting than knockback.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[TuggyNE]

I discovered this thread a few days ago, and it took me some time to sort through it all (), but I did have an idea to make the weapon property footnotes a bit more manageable by grouping them into categories.

As it stands, it took me an hour or two to make it through the list, flipping back and forth between the properties list and the weapons list just to get some idea of what a weapon did in the system.

Here's a preliminary attempt:
{table=head]#|Original Name|Abbrev|Group|New Name
5|Monk Weapon|C1|class|Monk Weapon
25|Battle Instrument|C2|class|Battle Instrument
7|Brutal|E1|enhanced|Brutal
8|Deadly|E2|enhanced|Deadly
26|Defensive|E3|enhanced|Defensive
27|Opportunist|E4|enhanced|Opportunist
4|Double Weapon|G1|general|Double Weapon
6|Non-Lethal|G2|general|Non-Lethal
9|Tripping|G3|general|Tripping
16|Finessible|G4|general|Finessible
30|Knockback|G5|general|Knockback
29|Sudden Draw|G6|general|Sudden Draw
10|+2 Disarm|M1|maneuver|+2 Disarm
11|+2 Bull Rush|M2|maneuver|+2 Bull Rush
12|+2 Disarm|M3|maneuver|+2 Disarm
13|+2 Trip|M4|maneuver|+2 Trip
28|+2 Feint|M5|maneuver|+2 Feint
15|Riding Bow|P1|projectile|Riding
17|Hand Crossbow|P2|projectile|One-handed
18|Repeating Crossbow|P3|projectile|Repeating
19|Mighty|P4|projectile|Mighty
21|Bow|P5|projectile|Bow
22|Crossbow|P6|projectile|Crossbow
23|Easy Loading Crossbow|P7|projectile|Quick-Loading
3|Reach|R1|reach|Reach
2|Settable|R2|reach|Settable
14|Charger|R3|reach|Charger
1|Concealable|S1|stealth|Concealable
24|Non-Threatening|S2|stealth|Non-Threatening
32|Return|T1|thrown|Return
20|Heavy Thrown|T2|thrown|Heavy Thrown
33|Ricochet|T3|thrown|Ricochet
31|Arc|T4|thrown|Arc[/table]

[Cieyrin]

Arc's a thrown property, since you're arcing your shot around that wall to smack somebody in the head. So it should be thrown, not reach.

[Seerow]

That's actually a really good idea Tuggyne, the large number of possible abbilities and how that looks on the table has been bothering me, and that method of formatting does seem better. I'll have some free time tomorrow so I'll look over it then for anything I want to change, and update the OP accordingly.

Arc's a thrown property, since you're arcing your shot around that wall to smack somebody in the head. So it should be thrown, not reach.

That's odd, I thought Arc was a projectile ability. Then again, the only thing that uses it is the Annulat, and I have no idea what that actually is (one of the weapons you put up) so I'll defer to you on that one.

[TuggyNE]

Arc's a thrown property, since you're arcing your shot around that wall to smack somebody in the head. So it should be thrown, not reach.

Heh. I was positive it belonged to a reach weapon. Oh well! Guess I misread at least one entry...

[Cieyrin]

That's odd, I thought Arc was a projectile ability. Then again, the only thing that uses it is the Annulat, and I have no idea what that actually is (one of the weapons you put up) so I'll defer to you on that one.

An annulat is a chakram-like weapon invented by the Neraphim, which they use to hunt Chaos Beasts on Limbo. It's in the Planar Handbook, which has a lot of interesting weapons, especially in that they're not all exotic weapons, either.

[Hanuman]

D2 sins grant the idea of weaponized boots, making boots deal damage like a shield would, thoughts?