Does the Soulknife class have a manifester level?

[wuwuwu]

As the title of the thread. In the SRD it states:

The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level.

So, RAW, does this mean that soulknives have a manifester level, but no power point progression or powers known? Or do soulknives not count as a psionic class?

Thanks in advance!

[Fax Celestis]

They have no ML, but they get the Wild Talent feat, which gives them a PP and the (Psionic) subtype.

[HalfDragonCube]

*Gets popcorn and sits back to watch 'soulknifes are sucky' derailment*

[wuwuwu]

They have no ML, but they get the Wild Talent feat, which gives them a PP and the (Psionic) subtype.

So soulknife does *not* qualify as a psionic class? Taking the Hidden Talent feat (on pg. 67 of the XPH) to gain say, Astral Construct, would forever be treated as if manifested with ML 1?

[FMArthur]

They have a slightly different Hidden Talent as an ACF for Wild Talent, BTW. They are a psionic class (EPH p17) and do have a manifester level (EPH p54). You would need to be a Kalashtar or something to have the PP to do it, but you most certainly can augment your Hidden Talent power as a Soulknife. As a Kalashtar you could get an Astral Construct every bit as good as a real power-wielder once a day.

[Psyren]

Soulknives are psionic, but do not have a manifester level. These are two different things.

They have a slightly different Hidden Talent as an ACF for Wild Talent, BTW. They are a psionic class (EPH p17) and do have a manifester level (EPH p54). You would need to be a Kalashtar or something to have the PP to do it, but you most certainly can augment your Hidden Talent power as a Soulknife. As a Kalashtar you could get an Astral Construct every bit as good as a real power-wielder once a day.

This is false. Hidden Talent explicitly does not give you a manifester level, and as a result you cannot augment the power you gain with it unless you take levels in a manifesting class.

[FMArthur]

Soulknives are psionic, but do not have a manifester level. These are two different things.



This is false. Hidden Talent explicitly does not give you a manifester level, and as a result you cannot augment the power you gain with it unless you take levels in a manifesting class.

This is lies. Obviously Hidden Talent absolutely does not give you a manifester level if you don't have one already, but a Soulknife is a psionic class and therefore has its own manifester level, which is something the feat works around. Maybe if you'd looked at those pages I referenced...

[wuwuwu]

Soulknives are psionic, but do not have a manifester level. These are two different things.

But manifester level is stated as being equal to your levels in a psionic class. If soulknife was a psionic class, it would grant manifester level by RAW, unless there is something that states this is not the case.

This is false. Hidden Talent explicitly does not give you a manifester level, and as a result you cannot augment the power you gain with it unless you take levels in a manifesting class.

It states: "If you have psionic class levels, you can manifest the power at the highest manifester level you have attained." Again, implying that psionic class levels give manifester levels. The question is whether or not soulknife qualifies as a psionic class (if it does, by RAW, it seems that it would gain manifester levels, but not gain any power points or powers known, but which would expand it's list of feats and PrCs it can qualify for)

They have a slightly different Hidden Talent as an ACF for Wild Talent, BTW.

Where can I find this? It doesn't seem to be in the XPH or CPsi (admittedly, I only skimmed over them). Is it a Mind's Eye feature?

[FMArthur]

Yeah. It comes with one problem: you have to scroll past the Psychic Warrior's Soulbound Weapon ACF on the same page to get to the Soulknife features...

[wuwuwu]

Yeah. It comes with one problem: you have to scroll past the Psychic Warrior's Soulbound Weapon ACF on the same page to get to the Soulknife features...

Thanks! I'm not actually a fan of the Soulbound Weapon ACF, because for 20 minutes and 16pp, you get a +5 weapon (with +3 enhancements), whereas a soulknife at 20th level permanently gets a +5 weapon (with +4 enhancements) and uses none of it's resources to create said weapon. 16pp isn't THAT much, but if your encounters are more than 20 minutes apart, it adds up quickly on a Psychic Warrior.

Granted, Psychic Warrior is generally viewed as a much better class than Soulknife, but I'm determined to try one for myself before judging that. On paper, the Soulknife doesn't seem that bad at all to me.

[Psyren]

It states: "If you have psionic class levels, you can manifest the power at the highest manifester level you have attained."

You should have kept going. The very next sentence in the feat:

(This is not a manifester level, and it does not add to any manifester levels gained by taking psionic classes.)

As this feat is the only reason Soulknives are psionic to begin with, they have no other source from which to gain a manifester level.

(Without multiclassing, anyway.)

By your logic, any class that takes Hidden Talent gains a manifester level, despite the feat itself specifically stating this is not the case.

This is lies. Obviously Hidden Talent absolutely does not give you a manifester level if you don't have one already, but a Soulknife is a psionic class and therefore has its own manifester level, which is something the feat works around. Maybe if you'd looked at those pages I referenced...

I did. See above.

[wuwuwu]

You should have kept going. The very next sentence in the feat:
~snip~
As this feat is the only reason Soulknives are psionic to begin with, they have no other source from which to gain a manifester level.

(Without multiclassing, anyway.)

No, I know it says that. I read that part. It does say that. I'm not saying the feat gives manifester levels. The feat is saying to treat your manifester level for the power granted as your manifester level for another psionic class. The "this is not a manifester level" clause is to prevent people from interpreting that as using your manifester level twice to determine the manifester level which you manifest the Hidden Talent power you gain.

If that was the only reason, then why are soulknives in the Psionic's Handbook? Why does their mindblade and several class features rely on being psionic? If you removed that feat as a class feature, and a non-psionic race took the class, you would not be able to use any of your class features. The class pretty heavily relies on psionics.

By your logic, any class that takes Hidden Talent gains a manifester level, despite the feat itself specifically stating this is not the case.

No, because Hidden Talent does not give you manifester levels, and does not make you a psionic class. It makes you a psionic race, though.

[Psyren]

If that was the only reason, then why are soulknives in the Psionic's Handbook?

Exactly! This point has been raised about Soulknives since time immemorial.

And actually, in the Psionics Handbook they were a PrC for Psychic Warriors that didn't advance manifesting at all. They didn't become a base class until the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Why does their mindblade and several class features rely on being psionic? If you removed that feat as a class feature, and a non-psionic race took the class, you would not be able to use any of your class features.

A better question to ask is - if it was really innately psionic, why does it need the feat in the first place?

A dwarf can become a psion just fine, and they need neither Wild Talent nor Hidden Talent to do so. Because Psion makes you psionic just by taking levels in it; Soulknife (without its feat) does not.

Which is why the only races allowed to actually remove that feat are in fact psionic ones.

Two quotes for you:

Wild Talent: A soulknife gains Wild Talent as a bonus feat. (This class feature provides the character with the psionic power he needs to materialize his mind blade, if he has no power points otherwise.)

This substitution feature replaces the standard soulknife's free Wild Talent feat. Since all Kalashtar gain power points for free, the character does not need this feat to materialize his mind blade.

In both cases, they qualify that you either need the feat to use your class features, or you don't because your race fulfills the requirement. The levels themselves are not enough.

And because the class itself is proven above to not be psionic, it doesn't benefit from the "stacking" clause in Hidden Talent.

Is it dumb that a non-psionic class is in the psionic sourcebook, and needs a free feat or racial charity to actually do its thing? You bet. But that doesn't change facts.

[wuwuwu]

I view the free feat as an elegant way of saying "This class gains 2 power points at 1st level". Sure, they could call it like "Soulwell" or "Inner Power" or something and made it a class feature, but they already have a feat that does exactly that so they gave it as a bonus feat.
You could very well just as easily ask the question "If Ranger's are supposed to be a class that can track track, why does it need the feat in the first place?"
It's a class feature to allow the soulknife to gain focus and create/imbue a mindblade, just like Track is a class feature to let Ranger's track, or spellcasting is a class feature to allow Wizard's to cast spells.

I'm feeling that you are providing your opinion that Soulknife is a non-psionic class, and therefore does not gain manifester levels, but you have not provided any RAW examples of why this is true. I hope you understand that you are entitled to this opinion, but if I went to a DM and said "Psyren from the internet says that this class isn't a psionic class", it is a much less powerful argument than "This is how it works according to RAW."

According to RAW, Soulknife seems to be a psionic class, and therefore gains manifester levels equal to it's class level. If you have anything from a sourcebook that says otherwise, feel free to cite it here; That is the intent of this thread.

And because the class itself is proven above to not be psionic, it doesn't benefit from the "stacking" clause in Hidden Talent.

Hidden Talent does not stack, unless using the Mind's Eye ACF for Soulknives, in which it explicitly says it DOES stack.

Your argument basically boils down to: If you remove the class feature that makes it psionic, it's not psionic. This is true. You're absolutely correct.

[FMArthur]

You have yet to prove that the EPH is apparently wrong when it terms the Soulknife a psionic class, Psyren. I have shown that the Soulknife is explicitly being called a psionic class by the book it was printed in. You've only shown that it's a little wierd how they refer to the Soulknife's psionicness from time to time. That it is. You haven't shown how it makes the class not psionic, or why text in the EPH stating that the Soulknife is psionic is not enough for you.

[Psyren]

I view the free feat as an elegant way of saying "This class gains 2 power points at 1st level". Sure, they could call it like "Soulwell" or "Inner Power" or something and made it a class feature, but they already have a feat that does exactly that so they gave it as a bonus feat.

And then take pains to let you know that "this feat is the reason you can use your class features." The Wilder also gains 2 power points at first level - why weren't they given Wild Talent?

Your idea of elegance and mine diverge pretty sharply.

You could very well just as easily ask the question "If Ranger's are supposed to be a class that can track track, why does it need the feat in the first place?"

Putting aside that the Track feat is superfluous in itself (and was rightly dispensed with in Pathfinder), this is a useless analogy. There is no "tracker-type" character that having the Track feat somehow enables; there is no line of feats that all require you to have Track. This line of reasoning has no bearing on psionics.

According to RAW, Soulknife seems to be a psionic class, and therefore gains manifester levels equal to it's class level. If you have anything from a sourcebook that says otherwise, feel free to cite it here; That is the intent of this thread.

I already did - neither Wild Talent nor Hidden Talent give you a manifester level, even if they make you psionic. And even if you warp Hidden Talent beyond recognition to grant Soulknives this feature, that's still just an ACF, not a feature of the default Soulknife.

Your argument basically boils down to: If you remove the class feature that makes it psionic, it's not psionic. This is true. You're absolutely correct.

And your argument is that ANY class with Hidden Talent has a manifester level, even Monk and Fighter, because Hidden Talent makes you psionic and then goes on to stack with psionic classes. You are stacking the feat with itself. It's preposterous.

[Draz74]

OK, let's put it this way: suppose that Soulknife didn't have the Wild Talent feature.

Great. Let's also take Soulknife levels using a non-psionic race. So now we can't use half our class features, can't take [psionic] feats, and generally have no psionic abilities.

None of that changes the fact that Soulknife is still a psionic class, and still grants a (useless) manifester level. Why? Because the book says it's a psionic class, and says that psionic classes grant a manifester level.

That's what people are trying to get across here, Psyren.

Is it stupid that the definition of being a "psionic class" has nothing to do with being a psionic creature or having psionic abilities? Sure. But them's the breaks.

[wuwuwu]

And then take pains to let you know that "this feat is the reason you can use your class features." The Wilder also gains 2 power points at first level - why weren't they given Wild Talent?

Your idea of elegance and mine diverge pretty sharply.

Because Wilder has Power Point progression, where it's done at every level, so for elegance, they added a little bit to the table to show how much they gain at each level. If the Wilder gained ONLY 2 power points at level 1, I'm POSITIVE they would have just given it Wild Talent.

I already did - neither Wild Talent nor Hidden Talent give you a manifester level, even if they make you psionic. And even if you warp Hidden Talent beyond recognition to grant Soulknives this feature, that's still just an ACF, not a feature of the default Soulknife.

Nobody is saying that they do give manifester levels, bro.

And your argument is that ANY class with Hidden Talent has a manifester level, even Monk and Fighter, because Hidden Talent makes you psionic and then goes on to stack with psionic classes. You are stacking the feat with itself. It's preposterous.

My argument has barely anything to do with the feats, buddy. My argument is that because Soulknife is a Psionic Class, and the feat Hidden Talent says that levels in Psionic Classes give you Effective Manifester Levels, a 12th level Soulknife with Hidden Talent giving him Astral Construct should be able to manifest Astral Construct as a 12th level manifester, as per the rules of the feat.
Which part of this do you disagree with? The part where nobody has said Soulknives are a psionic class BECAUSE of a feat, or the part where nobody said the feat gives manifester levels?

[averagejoe]

Is it stupid that the definition of being a "psionic class" has nothing to do with being a psionic creature or having psionic abilities? Sure. But them's the breaks.

Well, I think the mind blade is considered to be a psychic ability. I mean, a warlock who only uses his invocations to buff his eldrich blast is still considered to be a magic user, isn't he? (Which isn't to say the soulknife isn't poorly designed, just that I could see where they were coming from in trying to create a different kind of psionics.)

[Psyren]

bro

buddy

Please stop baiting me.

If the Wilder gained ONLY 2 power points at level 1, I'm POSITIVE they would have just given it Wild Talent.

And I'm positive they wouldn't.

Which part of this do you disagree with? The part where nobody has said Soulknives are a psionic class BECAUSE of a feat, or the part where nobody said the feat gives manifester levels?

The part where the feat that explicitly says it does not give a manifester level somehow gives one through massive contortions on your part.

I'm in no mood for moderation today, so agree to disagree it is.

[wuwuwu]

The part where the feat that explicitly says it does not give a manifester level somehow gives one through massive contortions on your part.

I'm in no mood for moderation today, so agree to disagree it is.

We can agree to disagree, but you need to know: Never in this thread has ANYBODY except for you said that the soulknife is gaining manifester levels BECAUSE of the feat (especially because the feat explicitly states that is not the case).
I have repeated this multiple times: NOBODY IS SAYING THAT.
What people are saying is that the Soulknife gains manifester levels by merit of being a Psionic Class.
Do you understand? Nobody is trying to debate that the feat is giving manifester levels. It clearly does not. We all agree on this.

[Thefurmonger]

We can agree to disagree, but you need to know: Never in this thread has ANYBODY except for you said that the soulknife is gaining manifester levels BECAUSE of the feat (especially because the feat explicitly states that is not the case).
I have repeated this multiple times: NOBODY IS SAYING THAT.
What people are saying is that the Soulknife gains manifester levels by merit of being a Psionic Class.
Do you understand? Nobody is trying to debate that the feat is giving manifester levels. It clearly does not. We all agree on this.

So you agree to disagree...... Then post up your argument yet again?

And so I'm not just saying you did something wrong... I actually agree with Psyren.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm feeling that you are providing your opinion that Soulknife is a non-psionic class, and therefore does not gain manifester levels, but you have not provided any RAW examples of why this is true. I hope you understand that you are entitled to this opinion, but if I went to a DM and said "Psyren from the internet says that this class isn't a psionic class", it is a much less powerful argument than "This is how it works according to RAW."

According to RAW, Soulknife seems to be a psionic class, and therefore gains manifester levels equal to it's class level. If you have anything from a sourcebook that says otherwise, feel free to cite it here; That is the intent of this thread.

The word "manifester" does not appear on the Soulknife class at all. The argument you are presenting is tantamount to saying that a fighter has a caster level because it doesn't say it doesn't.

Psionic Powers Overview

Psionic powers spring from sentient minds. Even an undead creature or a being that has no physical form can create a reserve of inner strength necessary to manifest powers, as long as it has an Intelligence score of at least 1. Vermin possessed of a hive mind ability are an exception to this rule.

A psionic power is a one-time psionic effect. Psionic characters and creatures need not prepare their powers for use ahead of time. They either have sufficient power points to manifest a power or they do not.

A power is manifested when a psionic character pays its power point cost. Some psionic creatures automatically manifest powers, called psi-like abilities, without paying a power point cost. Other creatures pay power points to manifest their powers, just as characters do.

Each power has a specific effect. A power known to a psionic character can be used whenever he or she has power points to pay for it.

Manifesting Powers

Psionic characters and creatures manifest powers. Whether they cost power points when manifest by a psionic character, or are manifested as psi-like abilities, powers’ effects remain the same. The process of manifesting a power is akin to casting a spell, but with significant differences.

The Soulknife does none of these things.

And, from the FAQ:

Can a kalashtar soulknife use quori embedded shards (ECS 264)? The shards draw on the bearer’s psychic energy—which both kalashtar and soulknives demonstrate.

A kalashtar soulknife has no manifester levels and thus can’t use quori embedded shards. Neither the kalashtar’s mindlink psi-like ability nor the soulknife’s mental powers actually grant a manifester level, and thus the character is ineligible to use quori-embedded shards.

[MeeposFire]

The word "manifester" does not appear on the Soulknife class at all. The argument you are presenting is tantamount to saying that a fighter has a caster level because it doesn't say it doesn't.

Except that nowhere does it say that fighters are a caster class and that caster classes have a caster level. Apparently he is saying that it says a soulknife is by definition is a psionic class and that psionic classes have a manifester level by definition. Very different situation. I am not saying one or the other is correct but this is certainly not the same as a fighter claiming a caster level.

[FMArthur]

I really am at a loss to understand your disagreement here. The EPH calls the Soulknife a psionic class early in the book. I gave a page number for you to look it up. The EPH section on Manifester Level defines it as your levels in a psionic class. I gave a page number for you to look it up. It's utterly inexplicable you apparently think the EPH is not telling the truth about its own subject matter. Soulknives are a psionic class, and they have a manifester level. The only contradiction to any of this that has been presented is that of an FAQ-writer, which has the same rules authority and often rules knowledge as the designer's dog.

[Fax Celestis]

In order to have a manifester level, you need to be able to manifest powers, as in the description of Psionic Powers I quoted from the SRD above. A soulknife does not manifest any powers, nor does he fake it by having any Psi-Like Abilities: all of the soulknife's class features are either EX or SU, not PS.

Wild Talent's text is certainly indicative that it does not possess manifester levels either:

Wild Talent

A soulknife gains Wild Talent as a bonus feat. (This class feature provides the character with the psionic power he needs to materialize his mind blade, if he has no power points otherwise.)

The text for Psionic Powers is also rather indicative of him not having a manifester level:

Powers And Power Points

Psionic characters manifest powers, which involve the direct manipulation of personal mental energy. These manipulations require natural talent and personal meditation. A psionic character’s level limits the number of power points available to manifest powers. A psionic character’s relevant high score might allow him to gain extra power points. He can manifest the same power more than once, but each manifestation subtracts power points from his daily limit. Manifesting a power is an arduous mental task. To do so, a psionic character must have a key ability score of at least 10 + the power’s level.

Adding Powers

Psionic characters can learn new powers when they attain a new level. A psion can learn any power from the psion/wilder list and powers from his chosen discipline’s list. A wilder can learn any power from the psion/wilder list. A psychic warrior can learn any power from the psychic warrior list.

[wuwuwu]

By your interpretation, an udoroot is not a psionic creature, because it doesn't manifest psionic powers, rather it manifests psi-like abilities

Also, note the opening post, where I quote the SRD:

The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level.

(emphasis mine)
Looking through the XPH and CPsi, the only classes that DO have PS abilities are Metamind, Pyrokineticist... Illumine Soul and Soulbow, the two Soulknife PrCs! Only one of those can manifest at all, anyways.

Also, can I have links to the FAQ? I'm looking through the one found here and so far haven't found that item.
edit: nvm found it!

[Fax Celestis]

By your interpretation, an udoroot is not a psionic creature, because it doesn't manifest psionic powers, rather it manifests psi-like abilities

No, my interpretation still rings true:

Psionic Powers Overview

Psionic powers spring from sentient minds. Even an undead creature or a being that has no physical form can create a reserve of inner strength necessary to manifest powers, as long as it has an Intelligence score of at least 1. Vermin possessed of a hive mind ability are an exception to this rule.

A psionic power is a one-time psionic effect. Psionic characters and creatures need not prepare their powers for use ahead of time. They either have sufficient power points to manifest a power or they do not.

A power is manifested when a psionic character pays its power point cost. Some psionic creatures automatically manifest powers, called psi-like abilities, without paying a power point cost. Other creatures pay power points to manifest their powers, just as characters do.

Each power has a specific effect. A power known to a psionic character can be used whenever he or she has power points to pay for it.

Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally. Armor never affects a psi-like ability’s use. A psi-like ability has a manifesting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability description. In all other ways, a psi-like ability functions just like a power. However, a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost.

Psi-like abilities are subject to power resistance and to being dispelled by dispel psionics. They do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed or negated.

[wuwuwu]

No, my interpretation still rings true:

Okay, deal. Could you please provide evidence that by RAW, trumps the original post's quote which clearly states that levels in a psionic class = manifester levels. So far all you've provided was your personal interpretations of quotes that do not clearly define the matter.
edit: post was rude, forgive me. It's a pet peeve of mine for people to focus on the wrong bits. Sorry!

[Fax Celestis]

The text states that in order to have a manifester level, you have to be able to manifest powers or use psi-like abilities:

Psionic characters and creatures manifest powers. Whether they cost power points when manifest by a psionic character, or are manifested as psi-like abilities, powers’ effects remain the same.

Further, the Wild Talent feat:

Wild Talent [General]

Your mind wakes to a previously unrealized talent for psionics.

Benefit

Your latent power of psionics flares to life, conferring upon you the designation of a psionic character. As a psionic character, you gain a reserve of 2 power points and can take psionic feats, metapsionic feats, and psionic item creation feats. You do not, however, gain the ability to manifest powers simply by virtue of having this feat.

...and the feature that grants that feat:

Wild Talent

A soulknife gains Wild Talent as a bonus feat. (This class feature provides the character with the psionic power he needs to materialize his mind blade, if he has no power points otherwise.)

Neither of these grant a soulknife the ability to actually manifest powers, nor do they make any mention of granting a manifester level. Conversely, the Hidden Talent feat explicitly gives you a manifester level if you don't have one:

HIDDEN TALENT [GENERAL]
Your mind wakes to a previously unrealized talent for psionics.
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken at 1st level.
Benefit: Your latent power of psionics flares to life, conferring upon you the designation of a psionic character. As a psionic character, you gain a reserve of 2 power points, and you can take psionic feats, metapsionic feats, and psionic item creation feats.

If you have or take a class that grants power points, the power points gained from Hidden Talent are added to your total power point reserve.

When you take this feat, choose one 1st-level power from any psionic class list. You know this power (it becomes one of your powers known). You can manifest this power with the power points provided by this feat if you have a Charisma score of 11 or higher. If you have no psionic class levels, you are considered a 1st-level manifester when manifesting this power. If you have psionic class levels, you can manifest the power at the highest manifester level you have attained. (This is not a manifester level, and it does not add to any manifester levels gained by taking psionic classes.) If you have no psionic class levels, use Charisma to determine how powerful a power you can manifest and how hard those powers are to resist.

Note: This is an expanded version of the Wild Talent feat, intended for use in high-psionics campaigns.

The FAQ I quoted earlier also supports this. And, from the commandments of practical optimization:

The vogue of "It's not official until it's in the errata/until it's in the errata and the FAQ/until it's in the errata, the FAQ, and Andy Collins personally comes to my house to deliver me a reprint of the rulebook with the corrected rules" is also problematic. Folks, like it or not, CustServ is our source of clarifications. The design team isn't going to stop to answer our questions.