D&D Versus GURPS

[Greysect]

This is not about which system is better, but what each system is capable of without heavy homebrewing.

D&D 3.5 is my first and only tabletop roleplaying system for six years. Scouring forums like these for some time now, I'm aware that 3.5 is not a perfect game, and that there are other games out there for people with different preferences in the genre of fiction or the system of character development. It seems that GURPS is another popular system, so I thought that would be as good a place as any to start to explore other ways to roleplay.

What I ask of you, playground, is to please, please, please list for me the strengths and weaknesses of D&D 3.5 and the most recent edition of GURPS. I don't expect to learn which is the better system, but the nature of each system, and what styles of playing are better suited for each. Which system has a larger focus on combat? Which one is friendlier to homebrewing? What rules are streamlined and which are complex?

Thank you in advance.

[Arbane]

Hoo boy, where to start....

Okay, for one thing, GURPS is a levelless, classless, point-buy system. You make your character pretty much from scratch. This is wonderful if you already have an idea, otherwise not so much.

Character build-point totals go on a rough scale from 0 (subnormal) to 25 (ordinary joe) to 100 (beginning hero) to 500 (beginning superhero).

Characters' "Hit Points" are based on on of their stats, and don't improve much over the character's lifespan. An arrow through the skull will ruin your whole day no matter how badass you are.

GURPS can do 'realistic' a bit better than D&D can. It has a fair number of rulebooks set in the modern-day/near-future.

GURPS has a LOT of sourcebooks. Historical settings, sci-fi, fantasy, general weirdness. Pick a genre or setting you like, and start there.

GURPS has a LOT of optional rules. (I know of at least 4 different magic systems, for example, and that's not counting psionics.) DON'T try to use all of them in one game, that way lies madness.

Does this help at all?

[Bucky]

Which system has a larger focus on combat?

3.5 has a larger focus on combat because character progression is tied directly to combat victories. In GURPS, character progression is tied to roleplaying and completing plot objectives.

Which one is friendlier to homebrewing?

I can't answer this one directly due to lack of experience. GURPS has several pages of homebrewing guidelines in core, while 3.5 (afaik) does not.

What rules are streamlined and which are complex?

The rule of thumb is that GURPS has optional rules for everything. In terms of combat, GURPS attacks typically take three die-rolls to resolve while 3.5 attacks only require one.

[Yuki Akuma]

GURPS can do anything, including heroic fanatsy.

D&D can only do heroic fantasy.

Although GURPS needs quite a few tweaks to imitate D&D-style heroic fantasy (the Dungeon Fantasy line ahs the tweaks you need), so if you just want to kick in doors, kill monsters and take their stuff, D&D is probably a better choice.

[Shpadoinkle]

Which system has a larger focus on combat?
D&D, definitely. The majority of the PHB is dedicated to stuff about how you resolves various combat actions, and has a couple guidelines for social things (diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive making up just about 100% of what the PHB dedicates to the social aspect of the game, if you ignore fluff.) Meanwhile GURPS has various abilities dealing with social interaction and stresses the importance of separating character actions from what the player might think.

Which one is friendlier to homebrewing?
Considering the sheer scope of GURPS, there's not a whole lot of stuff left to homebrew for (except premade monsters and such, but there are supplements that have things like that.) So, D&D.

What rules are streamlined and which are complex?
GURPS is pretty streamlined, and I picked up the basics in about two minutes. D&D is kind of all over the map. 3.5e did a LOT to streamline how things are handled compared to 2e (saving throws, attack rolls, AC, BAB progression, and skills all come to mind) but there are still a lot of stumbling blocks for new players.

GURPS is less narrow in scope and far more flexible, but... that can also lead to a feeling of falling through a void sometimes. It has no default underlying lore or setting, for instance, so the GM has to come up with all of that unless he uses premade stuff from one of the supplements.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you just go by the rules presented in the "generic" books, there is some underlying default lore.

Other universes exist. Magic relies on mana. Demons are summoned by necromancers.

But you can, naturally, rework any of that. Because it's GURPS.

[Greysect]

GURPS is less narrow in scope and far more flexible, but... that can also lead to a feeling of falling through a void sometimes. It has no default underlying lore or setting, for instance, so the GM has to come up with all of that unless he uses premade stuff from one of the supplements.

I was actually planning on using GURPS to get away from the lore of D&D. My previous campaigns have had humans only, low-magic, no alignment, and low-level play restricted to lower tiered classes such as Rogue and Barbarian, which deviates from how D&D is supposed to be played by at least some extent. If I used GURPS instead, I suppose it woud be easier or smoother to capture the grittiness and danger of a low-level, low-magic game.

[kyoryu]

Which one is friendlier to homebrewing?
Considering the sheer scope of GURPS, there's not a whole lot of stuff left to homebrew for (except premade monsters and such, but there are supplements that have things like that.) So, D&D.

Wow, I'm gonna disagree with that.

Homebrew for GURPS will tend to be smaller in scale (a skill, an advantage/disadvantage, etc.), but the system itself is designed in such a way to be *incredibly* friendly to the addition of new skills/advantages/etc.

Also, GURPS is more rightly considered a build-your-own-RPG-kit than a game in and of itself. To a certain extent, you *have* to homebrew GURPS. Any game will, at the minimum, require the GM to decide on not only the setting, but what supplements/sourcebooks are required.

I was actually planning on using GURPS to get away from the lore of D&D. My previous campaigns have had humans only, low-magic, no alignment, and low-level play restricted to lower tiered classes such as Rogue and Barbarian, which deviates from how D&D is supposed to be played by at least some extent. If I used GURPS instead, I suppose it woud be easier or smoother to capture the grittiness and danger of a low-level, low-magic game.

This is, in my experience, accurate. GURPS does gritty fantasy better out-of-the-box than D&D of pretty much any edition. It's a bit harder to get truly "heroic" fantasy out of GURPS though, especially heroic fantasy as defined by D&D 3.x.

[Greysect]

Also, GURPS is more rightly considered a build-your-own-RPG-kit than a game in and of itself. To a certain extent, you *have* to homebrew GURPS. Any game will, at the minimum, require the GM to decide on not only the setting, but what supplements/sourcebooks are required.

This is, in my experience, accurate. GURPS does gritty fantasy better out-of-the-box than D&D of pretty much any edition. It's a bit harder to get truly "heroic" fantasy out of GURPS though, especially heroic fantasy as defined by D&D 3.x.

I like what I'm hearing. Whenever I want to return to heroic fantasy, I'll use D&D. Otherwise, this system sounds nice. I suppose what I want from an RPG is a box of rules, not a box of premade worlds. If that's GURPs, I think I'll buy it.

[Fhaolan]

The main problem with GURPS is that it's not a 'play out of the box' system. The GM has to do a *lot* of work to winnow down the options, especially if the group hasn't spent years with the system prior. There are tons of alternate magic systems, cinematic vs mundane options, advantages, disadvantages and skills detailed that are genre-specific that need to be vetted, etc. And a metric ton of supplimental books detailing options for every conceivable genre, most of which are 80-90% compatable even if they are for different editions.

If you, as GM, are willing to do all this work, then it's a great system.

Oh, and the various editions of GURPS are less distinct from each other than what you might be used to from D&D. While there are structural changes between editions, stuff from one edition is still usable with other editions with some intelligent editing.

[Yuki Akuma]

I like what I'm hearing. Whenever I want to return to heroic fantasy, I'll use D&D. Otherwise, this system sounds nice. I suppose what I want from an RPG is a box of rules, not a box of premade worlds. If that's GURPs, I think I'll buy it.

No, use Dungeon Fantasy!

Dungeon Fantasy is awesome. Everyone should use it at least once.

[DukeofDellot]

There have been quite a few posts in the time it took me to type this... oh well.

D&D has a higher focus on combat? Probably... Though GURPS combat has more to it, and... You know what, I won't be able to post this without saying that I prefer GURPS in almost every way. Uh... so... yeah... Let's say that I got used to GURPS combat, D&D 3.5e combat just feels awkward.

Alright, I'll try to be a little more fair for the rest of the post.

Spoiler

Show

Homebrew is more common for D&D, GURPS very rarely needs it, though often you'll find yourself "modeling" things, since building your setting's races, "classes", and Powersets are defined within the rules, I'd say D&D is more homebrew friendly. That said, I'll start playing a game of GURPS months before I actually sit down to a table with my friends. Is that desirable? For some no, for me, absolutely.

Streamlining? GURPS has only three types of rolls, players only need to know how to make two of them. They are both moderately complicated, and can bog down a game if too much detail is observed, but in the normal usage, they are quick and easy. These rolls are the Success Roll (which can be contested or have Active Defenses against), the Damage Roll (which has DR subtracted from it, then it has a damage multiplier applied to it), and the Influence Roll (which I usually don't use... and have never missed). In D&D there are also three types of rolls (if I remember correctly) but I'm pretty sure you know them.

I'd say they're pretty close on streamlining...

D&D gives you the races and classes by default, but no guidelines to building your own... that's not fair... they give hints here and there about what they think keeps their races balanced with one another (again, if I remember correctly) and a good Home brewer can freely make some. In GURPS, the basic set gives standardized rules for building your races and "classes" by default, but a good list of them to be used in a single campaign costs you a little extra. Campaign settings usually come with a good list of both, but the basic set doesn't have one of those.

Complexity... GURPS was designed by a handful of Sci-fi and fantasy writers, a Physicist, a Martial Arts instructor, among others... some of the rules get pretty complex here or there. For example a slam attack (such as hitting someone with your car) does mass (HP) times velocity (speed) divided by one hundred dice of damage (all dice are six sided). This is used for all damage that is based on collisions, such as falling (You use the gravity acceleration to determine velocity... a real world measure) or jousting (switch the damage type to impaling from crushing, which might also happen if you're falling into a pongee pit)... But most of the game will be roll three dice under your skill, if the GM thinks you're attempting something extreme, your skill will be reduced for the roll.

I'll go back to combat... If you've seen it in an action movie, you can do it in GURPS, and it's a part of the core rules. Now long time GURPSers often include five volumes into the "core rules", so I'll specify that if it's something a gunslinger or warrior did, you'll find it in Martial Arts, if it's something a... anything else did you'll find it in Powers (and possibly also Magic).

Flaws, you already know your D&D flaws (or what you perceive them to be), but know that GURPS 4e also has her flaws. Munchkinry... is very possible. Check this out. What is that? Well, when you build a power, you build it's abilities by selecting an Advantage and adding on modifiers. This Ability is built to be able to destroy anyone, anywhere, if they don't have a specific advantage (that's not supposed to appear naturally, but expect every other PC to have it at its [8] point price) that defends against it. This ability has a range of "everywhere on any planet", requires no attack roll, ignores normal DR (cosmic DR negates it altogether), and deals 300 points of toxic damage per second to as many targets as the user would like. All this for [53] points which should be available most characters with room to build an otherwise fully fleshed out individual. The GM is allowed to say "no" for a reason...

One thing on the player side. A lot of D&D players expect "anything goes" to be standard, while GURPS "anything goes" doesn't even exist. Some optional rules are mutually exclusive with others. Further, if you're in a wild west game, a GM wants "realism", while a player wants to play a Sword swinging spellcaster... so the GM should think ahead and specify what is and isn't allowed. It's always a good thing for a player to look over the templates that a campaign provides, and if you're at the gaming table, without a character, and the GM has provided multiple templates to choose from, take a template and sit down.

GURPS is not actually as classless as many try to push. You just build the classes yourself (or buy them for a little extra) and players who think ahead are given the option to not use them... at least that's how that runs at my table.

There are a few types of games that GURPS doesn't run very well. High lethality, is one of them. GURPS, at first, looks very lethal, but you'll soon realize that even though you'll go down on one to five attacks, you're very likely to survive loosing a fight (without the bleeding optional rule), so when a player has to build a new character every other session, he'll be having to rub up against the three hour character building pretty hard. Build Character templates for those games if you want them... or play a different system... I also don't suggest D&D 3.5e for them... though I have Red Box as one of my choices in that field. Four Color Supers is hard to run if the players don't know the system very well (there's a supplement for it however), though low-powered or gritty Supers can be loads of fun right from the start...

I think I mentioned GURPS is my system of choice. So take all of this with a grain of salt.

Also, if I can convince my players, I'll use GURPS Dungeon Fantasy instead of D&D. It plays smoother, I think. But oftentimes I'll just whip out Banestorm and play some semi-controversial "historic" fantasy instead. Now that's really my style.

[kyoryu]

There's a few other weirdnesses with GURPS that are worth noting. Keep in mind I ran GURPS for *years*, and in a lot of ways it's still a favorite system of mine.

Playing a ranged character can be *annoying*. To get any accuracy at all requires multiple turns of basically doing nothing, especially with medieval/fantasy type weapons.

The DR/damage system kinda breaks down at higher levels, especially in high tech. Damage can quickly break down into no effect/thin red paste options, with little in the middle. You may argue it's realistic, but I don't particularly care. Also, with large numbers of dice, randomness decreases.

Character creation is a process, and will probably need help from the GM for many if not most players.

The GM *will* need oversight of created characters, and *will* be required to veto certain things. GURPS is not a game for GMs that are unwilling to say "no" by fiat.

Some of the rules are a bear. Even penalties for hitting a movement target with a ranged weapon are more annoying than they need to be. As mentioned above, some of the rules for things like vehicles colliding... *shiver*.

You get some weird effects due to how the math works. An "expert" swordsman (18 skill) will blow his defense roll over half the time, allowing a goon to hit him. Put him in plate mail, and his defense roll increases to the point where it's nearly impossible to hit him - and that's before damage reduction due to plate.

Magic is *different* than D&D. Mages tend to be more versatile, and more easily to keep slinging magic all day - but at a cost of reduced overall power. One variant worth looking at, IMHO, is UMana.

The lethality of GURPS is overrated in fantasy scenarios. It's pretty easy to get knocked out, but much tougher to actually die. In fact, it's a lot more like 4e D&D in that aspect, except with fewer abilities to just bounce back into the fight.

NOTE: All of these comments are based on 3rd edition. Some of these may have been cleared up in 4th.

[DukeofDellot]

NOTE: All of these comments are based on 3rd edition. Some of these may have been cleared up in 4th.

That said...

Playing a ranged character can be *annoying*. To get any accuracy at all requires multiple turns of basically doing nothing, especially with medieval/fantasy type weapons.

I've never seen this as a problem. If you have stealth, triple aim, then open combat by completely eliminating one foe. Fast-Draw an arrow and aim, next turn you disable another. Ranged combat is Awesome, but requires a player to be willing to sacrifice a turn here or there.

The DR/damage system kinda breaks down at higher levels, especially in high tech. Damage can quickly break down into no effect/thin red paste options, with little in the middle. You may argue it's realistic, but I don't particularly care. Also, with large numbers of dice, randomness decreases.

There are a lot of people saying this, I've never noticed it. You can use DR (ablative) to be a Space Opera hero if you want.

Character creation is a process, and will probably need help from the GM for many if not most players. The GM *will* need oversight of created characters, and *will* be required to veto certain things. GURPS is not a game for GMs that are unwilling to say "no" by fiat.

I have this problem with D&D as well. You want your character concept to be "I was told by my god to kill the other PCs"... no go. He tried it three times... in three different systems... thinking it was the ruleset that said no.

Some of the rules are a bear. Even penalties for hitting a movement target with a ranged weapon are more annoying than they need to be. As mentioned above, some of the rules for things like vehicles colliding... *shiver*.

I actually really enjoy that rule... it's quick and easy (for me) and reasonably "realistic" as far as fiction would be concerned. Besides there's no reason to actually handle the damage unless the PCs are involved. I guess there's the rule for explosives that I sort of gloss over.

The moving targets thing has been dropped in with the ranged penalties... which are steep, but taking a second to aim (or not if you have the correct advantage) tend to eliminate the ranged penalties in most skirmish with melee ranges. Further, if you're running a Modern game, sifting from cover to cover to get a better shot is rather fun.

You get some weird effects due to how the math works. An "expert" swordsman (18 skill) will blow his defense roll over half the time, allowing a goon to hit him. Put him in plate mail, and his defense roll increases to the point where it's nearly impossible to hit him - and that's before damage reduction due to plate.

That's fixed. Armor no longer makes you harder to hit, 15 in skill (what I call expert) plus Combat reflexes gives you a parry of 11, 10 if it's a knife, 13 if it's a staff. 10 is 50%, 11 is like three out of five or two out of three... or around there. 13 is enough that you'll only have to worry if you're taking multiple attacks per turn (you get penalties for that).

Magic is *different* than D&D. Mages tend to be more versatile, and more easily to keep slinging magic all day - but at a cost of reduced overall power. One variant worth looking at, IMHO, is UMana.

Fixed, Fixed, and more Fixed. You can use a magic system that's almost the same, or you can use one of several dozen others... or you can use the "new" powers system (which is awesome).

The lethality of GURPS is overrated in fantasy scenarios. It's pretty easy to get knocked out, but much tougher to actually die. In fact, it's a lot more like 4e D&D in that aspect, except with fewer abilities to just bounce back into the fight.

There are now many more abilities to bounce you back into a fight. And if you're using Powers, there will be many more than that.

Something to say, 4e GURPS is strictly better than 3e GURPS.

[navar100]

In D&D over time your character improves in ability. The pacing is up to the DM but characters get better at doing stuff and new stuff, soon they are a lot more powerful than they were when the game started and the campaign isn't over yet.

In GURPS, your character stagnates. Whatever abilities your character can do when you first start are the same and only abilities you can do when the campaign ends other than maybe learned a few new skills and improved other skills. Spellcasters/psions may have learned some new more powerful spell/powers but not much.

[Yuki Akuma]

I have this problem with D&D as well. You want your character concept to be "I was told by my god to kill the other PCs"... no go. He tried it three times... in three different systems... thinking it was the ruleset that said no.

...I can see maybe thinking it was a one-time thing and giving him another chance, but why would you give him a third opportunity to be a player-killing jerk? I'd have dropped him after the second time.

In GURPS, your character stagnates. Whatever abilities your character can do when you first start are the same and only abilities you can do when the campaign ends other than maybe learned a few new skills and improved other skills. Spellcasters/psions may have learned some new more powerful spell/powers but not much.

Have you ever actually played GURPS?

For a start, a new spell costs 1 point. 1 point.

[Arbane]

In GURPS, your character stagnates. Whatever abilities your character can do when you first start are the same and only abilities you can do when the campaign ends other than maybe learned a few new skills and improved other skills. Spellcasters/psions may have learned some new more powerful spell/powers but not much.

Unless your character have superpowers, skills _are_ what GURPS characters do. And like spells, new spells generally only cost 1 point. Making a character who's Sir Richard Burton (the explorer, not the actor) is totally doable. "Diplomat, leader, sailor, multilinguist, master of disguise AND an expert duellist? Yeah, you've got enough points..."

[kyoryu]

Ranged combat is Awesome, but requires a player to be willing to sacrifice a turn here or there.

And sacrificing turns Isn't Fun. I've seen that come up a bunch of times. Glad that it's not as bad as it used to be....

There are a lot of people saying this, I've never noticed it. You can use DR (ablative) to be a Space Opera hero if you want.

When DR and dice get big enough, the random effect basically becomes greater than the damage needed to vaporize someone. It's really only a problem in higher tech (>TL7) scenarios. Even at modern tech levels it works reasonably well.

20 DR is great, and will protect fine against a 5d or 6d weapon. Until it doesn't. Then, pray for a limb hit.

I have this problem with D&D as well. You want your character concept to be "I was told by my god to kill the other PCs"... no go. He tried it three times... in three different systems... thinking it was the ruleset that said no.

3.x is also pretty open to rule abuses, I'll give you that. One of the reasons I don't care for 3.x is that it loses the advantages of 1/2/4e D&D in favor of some of the advantages of GURPS, but doesn't get as far as GURPS does in those areas, while being potentially more abusable than GURPS in other ways. I went back to D&D to get away from the build complexity issues in GURPS, and 3.x is arguably worse. And things like "you can build a non-combat character" are done better in GURPS anyway.

The moving targets thing has been dropped in with the ranged penalties... which are steep, but taking a second to aim (or not if you have the correct advantage) tend to eliminate the ranged penalties in most skirmish with melee ranges. Further, if you're running a Modern game, sifting from cover to cover to get a better shot is rather fun.

Awesome. Sounds like some good improvements.

That's fixed. Armor no longer makes you harder to hit, 15 in skill (what I call expert) plus Combat reflexes gives you a parry of 11, 10 if it's a knife, 13 if it's a staff. 10 is 50%, 11 is like three out of five or two out of three... or around there. 13 is enough that you'll only have to worry if you're taking multiple attacks per turn (you get penalties for that).

So parry is 2/3 as a baseline now instead of 1/2? Awesome.

Fixed, Fixed, and more Fixed. You can use a magic system that's almost the same, or you can use one of several dozen others... or you can use the "new" powers system (which is awesome).

I actually don't consider that fixed. While it needed some tweaks, I LIKED 3e GURPS magic, overall.

There are now many more abilities to bounce you back into a fight. And if you're using Powers, there will be many more than that.

Something to say, 4e GURPS is strictly better than 3e GURPS.

Sounds like. Now I really, really want to check it out. Sounds like they fixed a number of long-standing issues (hey, I started GURPS around 86? 87?) that drove me away from the system.

BTW, I wasn't criticizing GURPS before. I *like* GURPS. Every system has its quirks though, and just wanted to mention some of them.

[Yuki Akuma]

So parry is 2/3 as a baseline now instead of 1/2? Awesome.

No. Combat Reflexes gives a bonus to parry.

[DukeofDellot]

And sacrificing turns Isn't Fun. I've seen that come up a bunch of times. Glad that it's not as bad as it used to be....

Thinking about it, there's a Heroic Archer [20] and Fast-Draw [usually 1] combo that allows you to load, aim, and fire in one second, allowing you to attack every turn... but at my table a full circle takes two minutes at most (after we got rid of a certain idiot) and when a person declares an "aim" maneuver, it just speeds things up.

The same stat that handles ranged combat also handles melee (and half of your dodge defense), so picking up two weapon combat [6] switching between them is a common strategy... because "I'm an archer" usually isn't as awesome as "I'm an agile combatant"... even Robin Hood used a sword.

The problem happens around Pirate games where guns take ten or more rounds to reload! So you have to either own multiple or drop it and draw a sword (with Fast-Draw, you can do that and attack in one round).

So parry is 2/3 as a baseline now instead of 1/2? Awesome.

Actually it's 1/2+3... which sounds odd, but it works. Knives give a -1, and Staves give a +2 (which makes them the incredible for otherwise vulnerable characters). Other weapons have other things... like most Axes are unbalanced, so if you attack, you can't parry until after your next turn (unless you attack again), but you can still dodge (or block if you've got a shield or cloak in your other hand).

No. Combat Reflexes gives a bonus to parry.

Edit: Oh yeah, that too.

... The thing about Magic is... I usually give the option for players to use the Standard Magic system, but I don't. Building Powers is too much fun. But the sheer oddity of the Magic system keeps players coming back for more. I guess "Fixed" isn't the right word...

...

And the "I was told by my god to kill the other players" was just an idiot that I couldn't get rid of. As it turned out, he was too stupid to understand what was wrong with his character concept... he was also too stupid to defeat the other players (even with his "Invincible Builds") because he didn't understand that there was more to fighting than yelling "I attack!". I explained everything to him countless times... but there was no helping it...

The thing is, there are stupid people in this world. Lots of them. And sometimes it takes moving out of state and changing your name to get away. Then you find more wherever you go...

Um... I think I lost my concentration somewhere...

[kyoryu]

Actually it's 1/2+3... which sounds odd, but it works. Knives give a -1, and Staves give a +2 (which makes them the incredible for otherwise vulnerable characters).

Actually that seems a lot better than the old system where some were 1/2, and some (Staff, Rapier) were 2/3.

[navar100]

Have you ever actually played GURPS?

For a start, a new spell costs 1 point. 1 point.

Yes, I have.

That's how I know. Played one campaign for a year. My character was exactly the same as when I started except for a few skills I could roll one to two pips better.

[a_humble_lich]

Yes, I have.

That's how I know. Played one campaign for a year. My character was exactly the same as when I started except for a few skills I could roll one to two pips better.

The thing is that advancement in GURPS entirely depends on how many point are being given out. If you are playing 3rd edition where it is more difficult to raise attributes and gain advantages and the GM is following the recommended point rewards you will advance very slowly, especially compared to D&D where you are expected to gain vast amounts of power. I do wish the rule book gave more guidelines of how many points to award.

In general though I agree, character advancement in GURPS in generally slower than many other games. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, in 3.5 characters can change so quick that often you only have a 4 level window where you get to play the character you imagined and then you have to reinvent him.

[Knaight]

Which system has a larger focus on combat?
D&D by a long shot, and every edition of it. GURPS is built to allow characters with combat capability and characters without combat capability, D&D isn't.

Which one is friendlier to homebrewing?
I'd argue GURPS for this one. The system can already handle basically everything, but there are obviously ideas that won't be represented. You might want to add a species or two, maybe a few pieces of technology, so on and so forth, and doing so in GURPS is easy. For instance, if I were to try and play my Atlantis 2.0 setting in GURPS, I would homebrew a lot of space opera weapons, and probably some aliens. Doing so would be easy. Were I to do so in D&D, the weaponry would be easy, but the aliens would be a pain in the rear, and I would need to refluff a lot and completely ban many classes.

What rules are streamlined and which are complex?
GURPS and D&D are very similar in certain complexities. Both are systems in which one browses long lists of stuff for what they want*. In D&D this stuff takes the form of classes, feats, spells, equipment, whatever. In GURPS, this stuff takes the form of skills, advantages, disadvantages, etc. However, D&D also has a lot of clunk that GURPS doesn't, such as the sheer quantity of modifiers flying around.

On Advancement
D&D, particularly 3.x and 4e has extremely fast advancement. Every edition is built around the concept of characters that start low -whether this means glorified commoners or fledgling "heroes" varies- and eventually gain huge amounts of power -whether this makes them powerful lords or nigh unto gods varies. GURPS isn't built around this, you can use it for something like this if you want to, but the basic assumption is that the capabilities of characters change fairly slowly.

On Options
D&D has a handful of variant rules. GURPS has a plethora of optional subsystems you can choose between, to put the focus exactly where you want it in your game, and to look at that focus through exactly the lens you want.

On Scope
GURPS can do basically everything reasonably well. It might not be quite as good as the cream of the crop of specific games, but it is always solid. Sure, Burning Wheel might better do low magic pseudo-Tolkien fantasy, and Pendragon might better do Arthurian Myths, but GURPS can do pretty much everything. If you have a high variety of settings, high concepts, and in general games that you want to play, GURPS is your go to system**.


*This is contrasted with systems in which one fundamentally makes what one wants. For instance, FATE has Aspects instead of Advantages and Disadvantages, and you make Aspects from scratch rather than browsing a list for them. Some FATE adaptations do the same thing with another concept, called Stunts, which are roughly parallel to feats. Risus uses Cliches as the fundamental building blocks of a mechanical character representation, again one makes these rather than finding them.

**Or rather, it is a go to system. There are a fair few generic systems, and if GURPS isn't your cup of tea there are others. I favor Fudge, and prefer FATE to GURPS. Other notable systems are Savage Worlds and Hero, one of which I absolutely detest, the other of which I admire but want nothing to do with.

[Fridrik Bj]

I have played both systems a lot and for me the breakdown is as follows.

GURPS 4th does Dark Gritty Fantasy really really well. It does High Fantasy ok.

DnD 3.5 does High Fantasy really really well. It does Dark Gritty Fantasy ok.

GURPS also supports anything from My Little Pony to Hard Sci-Fi well.

DnD 3.5 does not do other support anything outside fantasy well. (There are some D20 systems that do, but they aren't DnD)

GURPS is harder to figure out and master

DnD 3.5 is easier to figure out and master

[fusilier]

GURPS is harder to figure out and master

DnD 3.5 is easier to figure out and master

Why do you find GURPS harder to figure out and master?

From my perspective GURPS is easy, especially as a player: roll 3d6 and compare result to skill (or occasionally attribute).

Admittedly D&D isn't as complicated as it used to be, and now is mostly roll a d20 and add a modifier. Although personally I find the different ways of assessing modifiers to be somewhat irritating. A good character sheet is a huge help, but sometimes I've been given very poor ones (which in 4.0 typically gets me being yelled at by the DM for not calculating my attack modifiers correctly).

As a GM, GURPS can be a bit more complicated, but once I started GM'ing it I found it came pretty easy. The biggest problem was assigning penalties (i.e. how hard it is to do something), as most of these are made up on the fly. If I haven't been GMing for a while, sometimes it takes me a session or two to feel comfortable with setting the difficulty levels.

Just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on why you find GURPS hard to figure out compared to D&D?

[DukeofDellot]

It's hilarious the contradiction but I'll have to agree with the statements that:

GURPS is more detailed and complicated, but easier to play.

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When it comes down to it, if you have certain ideas down, GMing for GURPS can be very easy...

Step 1: Buy some Character Templates... I purchased the Banestorm setting, not because it was an awesome setting (which it is) but because it has a good list of Character templates in the back. There's also Dungeon Fantasy, Action!, and Monster Hunters to choose from, all pretty reasonably priced. This is a lot faster than building your own templates (I'll spend upwards of a dozen hours on some of mine.)

Step 2: When making your setting, keep things simple. Usually you just need to know the setting decently enough to get things running, and often the only things that need stating out are the powers and races. If you're using the standard magic system, then only really the races need stating out... and here's where I'll disagree with DnD's designers. Try to keep the race list to under a dozen races... if there are so many that the players forget them on every turn, the races will only loose their flavor. If you find yourself around six, and you still have three or four races that you "must use" save them for another game. Having three highly diverse races can be much more powerful than having eight stereotypes plus human.

Step 3*: Figure out some basic skill level standards. Ten means the guy sorta knows what he's doing, but he's a noob. Twelve means he's got the skills to pay the bills, but he's no hero. Fifteen means he's damned good at his job and can compete in a heroic setting. Eighteen means he's the best guy around at his job. If he's a known rival of one of the PCs, give him the same skill level as the PC in the PC's main skills. Now whenever an NPC shows up and you don't have stats for him, you have his skills at least, and usually that's enough.

Step 4: Make yourself some handy NPC cards. I used to print mine out onto index cards, then I switched to full sized printer paper (with six NPCs per page). Fill these out for your major NPCs... but don't track their points. Point cost doesn't equate to threat level. Have an intended way the characters while show up, and a backup plan. If neither happen, look for an opening and go for it. Stay loose, and let the players feel like they have freedom.

Step 5*: Decide on some normal combat stats. HP is standard at 10, if the NPC doesn't have a name, why would he have the will to fight in negative HP? If you have an answer then he can, if not, he just fades out of scene (unless one of the players asks if there are survivors, then decide). 6 HP is a child or DnD Goblin-sized character, 8 HP is a weakling (beggar or long term prisoner), 12 HP is a soldier, 14 or higher is a body builder or "barbarian". Damage Reduction... I won't bore you with my DR since I highly house ruled it. Active Defenses can be figured out on the spot by knowing a skill level (see above) and deciding if the character has Combat Reflexes (soldier or barbarian should, otherwise it might be cultural). Dodge should be around 8 to 10, be careful with this stat if your players don't start using Deceptive Attacks (mine never once did).

Step 6: Show up to game night with thirty night with an hour of planning, have fun for five times as long. It's how I do it.

...I was going to stop at line two...

*These are my numbers... I use them for my games... What you find to be accurate might be very different.

[fusilier]

Excellent point about NPC's in GURPS. You just "make them up" without paying attention to point cost. What I do is look at the skill levels of the party and create some enemies with skills/stats that seem appropriate. Again, it may take some practice before you are comfortable with those levels. I'm fairly lazy, so typically I have a couple lists of NPCs that get reused. On the other hand, the main, plot important antagonists will typically have full well rounded character sheets, although I don't pay too much attention to point values there either. There are premade monster lists available, and I've used the Fantasy Bestiary at least once. But it's still up the GM to decide if his group is capable of tackling a particular monster.

[Greysect]

First of all, thanks for the great advice. Considering how I prefer grittiness and enjoy making my own worlds and lore from scratch, I think GURPS can give me what I need while having downsides I can easily overlook, like having few established settings to use. Anytime I want a clear and tangible rise of power and a more fantastic setting, I'll just go back to all my 3.5 books. Don't think any of my D&D friends will appreciate their only DM trying a new system, but its not like I'm abandoning D&D forever.

Now what about equipment and currency? The two things I dreaded most about having a D&D campaign was keeping track of how much gp and xp the party should have from encounters and for their level, especially as their wealth demanded the introduction of magic items when I both prefer low-magic and never enjoyed items of either passive bonuses to bland stats (a bonus to jump or climb to emulate a ninja or spider is one thing, but when everybody just gets a passive +2 ability score I die a little) or activated abilities that take away from the character's class and race.

GURPS tries something different in that wealth and status are integrated into the character, as part of the person as his or her physical or personality traits, at least as far as I can tell by what I have read. Does this mean GURPS has less of a focus on equipment?

Also, I understand there are multiple magic systems? Could you give me an overview on how these systems differ?

[Yuki Akuma]

GURPS has a far lesser focus on equipment at low Technology Levels, where PCs don't have much money - but the more money they have, the more powerful equipment they can buy.

GURPS Magic also includes rules for magic items, most of which can be really useful.

But, on the whole, the game isn't balanced around the idea that characters will have x amount of bonuses at y point value.

(And if someone wants to have a cool magic sword, they could just spend points on an Innate Attack with the Gadget limitation.)