[World Construction] Möbius World

[Fax Celestis]

Originally from the VUACS2 Thread:



The flips would also rotate asynchronously (so that the flip moved, but not the terrain), giving night and day.

Wow, cool. I'm having problems imagining how The sun's and moon's movement would look from the surface, though.

Okay... lolwut?

...

Wait...

Ooooooooh! I think I... no... no...

... maybe...

Yes! I see it! I see it!

That was not kind on my brain. Interesting idea there, and not one I'm adverse too... Now which would make a more attractive female embodiment of life: A sphere or a... cool woobly thing. This may take some thought.

Moon would orbit overhead, then across the sky to your left, then further to your left, then further to your left, then would be invisible, then would start approaching from your right.

Sun would go across the sky (from about 9 AM position to about 6 PM position), then the flip would hit, and you'd be in night time for twelve or so hours. You'd come back, and the sun would go across the sky again. If it's timed right, it generally would travel in the same path relative to an earthly position day in day out. If it's not, you might have some days where it starts at 12 Noon, moves to 6PM, then back to 12 Noon before the flip hit.

This would also have some interesting features in that, like Ringworld and Halo, you could see the rest of the planet arc up into the sky before you. There would be a literal edge of the world--two, even. Solar eclipses would be relatively common. And, I think most interestingly, you could see the flip coming and could judge time via how far away the flip was.

[...]I do think Mobius could make for an interesting fantasy world, but it doesn't seem especially synergistic with the one we've been voting up.

All this talk of Mobius World should be moved to another thread, one of it's own. After all, these do not seem compatible, but it is obvious that almost everyone here WANTS a Mobius World. We need to work together to make Mobius World a reality! All in favor?

YES.
Fax Celestis you WONDERFUL CREATURE. that is very pretty This is the kind of thing I want to see, not some trite sphere or flatworld, something new. Newborn, new made. I honestly am not amazingly bothered if it is a torus, or a mobius strip or a klien bottle, or even just a flatworld properly realized in D&D physics. But please, make it POWERFUL. Not just, an infinite flat plain, or a sphere.

How about a Mobius World thread, then? The person who made that awesome pic of Mobius World's orbits would be the best person to make one, I think.

[Salbazier]

So, first question that occured to me: What kind of lunacy that spawn this, this ...., well, this cool, crazy, brilliant thing? I mean what kind of divinity/people/event that can cause something so odd to form?

Then we need to figure out fitting theme for this kind of world.

[zyborg]

So, first question that occured to me: What kind of lunacy that spawn this, this ...., well, this cool, crazy, brilliant thing? I mean what kind of divinity/people/event that can cause something so odd to form?

Then we need to figure out fitting theme for this kind of world.

A world with this...unique a shape would not have been made by nature or random chance, IMHO. If it was created by a god, it would have to be a god of a Lawful alignment. Sure, it looks chaotic, but the shape makes it so that the movement of it and its moon is synched like clockwork. If created by many gods... I don't know.

Anyways, it makes for a very unique world. I'd love to see this as a setting.

[erictheredd]

they first question that comes to me is shape

how sudden is the flip?

it can be anything from virtually instant to having to real stopping or starting point

also, how big is it? is it a long thin strip or a short wide strip?

how "thick" is it? can you dig through it? what happens when you try to go around the edge?

[paddyfool]

In the beginning
Zaos, god of roads, sat in the formless void and reflected on what had been. On the wondrous world he'd once inhabited, overseeing the protection of travelers in particular. On the apocalyptic destruction of world and pantheon alike, and his flight down rapidly created roads to nowhere which he'd closed behind him as soon as he opened them. And on the few followers he'd been able to take with him, suspended for now in a protective cocoon.

He remembered every detail of the world, as it was, and the pathways of all things that moved in it. But it was beyond his power to create a new world entirely alike... anything he did craft and create would be bound by his portfolio, forced to take a certain shape and form. And yet, perhaps, it might be possible, if he bent that form enough, to recreate something akin to what was lost.

Zaos, mad creator god of the world of the twisted way, dwelt on this question for a long time, even as gods measure time, before he first began to build.

[Morph Bark]

So, first question that occured to me: What kind of lunacy that spawn this, this ...., well, this cool, crazy, brilliant thing? I mean what kind of divinity/people/event that can cause something so odd to form?

Then we need to figure out fitting theme for this kind of world.

Mathematicians and experimental physicists.

[Violet Octopus]

Would there be regular seismic activity in each part of the strip as a fold passes along it? If so, how does society adapt to predictable, but at least daily, earthquakes?

edit: I like the God of Roads idea. Here are a couple more:
* The world was originally a normal ringworld. Population pressure grew and to relieve this, powerful spellcasters restitched the world into its current form, doubling the surface area that would receive sunlight.

* Mobius strips get used as belts in machinery, because they wear equally on both sides. This world was once part of the enormous clockwork of Mechanus until a gear slipped, sending it hurtling into the void. A former exarch of Pelor, exiled for some reason, found the strip, seeded it with life and incarnated into a sun.

[gkathellar]

AHHHHHONLYONESIDETHISISANABOMINATION

This is the coolest thing since sliced bread, in a deeply terrifying way.

I made a mobius strip once and I got a headache that lasted for something like an hour and stopped immediately after I destroyed it. Hmm ... villain idea?

[Morph Bark]

* The world was originally a normal ringworld. Population pressure grew and to relieve this, powerful spellcasters restitched the world into its current form, doubling the surface area that would receive sunlight.

This could be either a good thing or a bad/evil thing. The "dark" side from before could have been a kind of Plane of Shadow, filled with shadow creatures. An evil spellcaster wanted to have them pass freely into the real world and thus cut open the world somewhere and flipped one side over to create a Möbius World. Or good spellcasters did this so that the liveable world would double in size and had that as an unexpected, unwanted side-effect. Or good spellcasters did this for that reason and to simultaneously destroy the Plane of Shadow and destroy a lot of evil creatures that way.

I prefer the first one, with the side effect that "night" effectively turns that part of the Möbius World into a semi-Plane of Shadow, sort of, thus making travel at night faster, but also more dangerous, due to the shadow creatures all around.

* Mobius strips get used as belts in machinery, because they wear equally on both sides. This world was once part of the enormous clockwork of Mechanus until a gear slipped, sending it hurtling into the void. A former exarch of Pelor, exiled for some reason, found the strip, seeded it with life and incarnated into a sun.

Unless They use four-dimensional machinery, this is sadly impossible.

[Violet Octopus]

This could be either a good thing or a bad/evil thing. The "dark" side from before could have been a kind of Plane of Shadow, filled with shadow creatures. An evil spellcaster wanted to have them pass freely into the real world and thus cut open the world somewhere and flipped one side over to create a Möbius World. Or good spellcasters did this so that the liveable world would double in size and had that as an unexpected, unwanted side-effect. Or good spellcasters did this for that reason and to simultaneously destroy the Plane of Shadow and destroy a lot of evil creatures that way.

I prefer the first one, with the side effect that "night" effectively turns that part of the Möbius World into a semi-Plane of Shadow, sort of, thus making travel at night faster, but also more dangerous, due to the shadow creatures all around.

I was thinking that the cutting of the strip accidentally released evil from the strip's gooey caramel centre. The Scar would be corrupted badlands, but the rest of the strip would be OK. But I think I prefer cycling between normal and Plane of Shadow traits.

[gkathellar]

Unless They use four-dimensional machinery, this is sadly impossible.

Here's one:


Here's how they work:

[Morph Bark]

Here's one:
*snip*

Here's how they work:
*snip*

I meant moreso to say that I am skeptical that it actually works as intended, as I would think the part where it flips over might go over the wheels as well, rather than stay in place while the band is moved over the wheels.

[Violet Octopus]

Presumably you have some stationary restraint that keeps the twist in the same spot. Like two vertical prongs with rollers on them.

edit:
anyway, do people see this thread as just a brainstorm for ideas that fit a Möbius World, or do we want to reach some sort of consensus and flesh it out into a homebrew setting?

[Fax Celestis]

anyway, do people see this thread as just a brainstorm for ideas that fit a Möbius World, or do we want to reach some sort of consensus and flesh it out into a homebrew setting?

This is what I was judging.

[Shadow Lord]

Let there be setting!And there was a setting
Let it be strange!And it was strange
Let us rejoice!And there was rejoicing
Let us create!And there was creation

That is all.

[zyborg]

This is gonna be an awesome homebrew world. I wonder... are we just gonna suggest ideas, or is this gonna turn into VUACS 3? Either way, it will be cool.

First topic we should discuss is probably either the theme of the setting, or perhaps why it is s mobius strip.

[gkathellar]

I'd say the first thing to do is to figure out major thematic elements. A Mobius Strip is such a weird idea for a world that it needs to be clear what kind of ideas that weirdness works with. Is this supposed to be a vaguely comedic weirdness setting, or existential horror, or what? Are we going to be making a lot of math jokes*, or vaguely contemplating the nature of infinity? I think figuring that out is top priority.

*Even if we don't, it's very important that we be able to punch irrational number monsters in the face.

[zyborg]

I personally see this as a "Strange-yet-familiar" kind of world. I want things to be extremely weird, and yet be able to relate to it on some level. The kind of strange differences should both be large, to make the world stand out from others, while many being subtle, adding a creepy feeling to it. Like "something isn't right, but I can't quite put my finger on it..."

I'm not sure that the feeling should extend to the characters, though. If they are natives of that world, then it should be strange for the players, but not too strange for the characters they play. I don't know how to separate those. Perhaps they AREN'T natives of the world. Perhaps the PCs are "summoned" to this strange world from the "SRD" world?

Finally, I like the "Shadow Demi-plane" idea. Awesome idea, Morph.

[Fax Celestis]

The World of Uncanny Valley it is.

[Morph Bark]

Finally, I like the "Shadow Demi-plane" idea. Awesome idea, Morph.

I'd moreso call it a "Shadow Semi-plane" as it is a plane that is half Shadow that you can just walk into as a normal person. Either way, thanks.


With the "two vertical rollers" thing I can see how a Möbius band can work on a machine. However, this does give me an idea... the god(s) who created this world (before it was turned into a Möbius World) could be nuts about the laws of physics and love experimenting with them. They could be pretty human-like, but in their own plane they would have it filled with machinery that spans more than three dimensions, causing stuff like loops in the magic on their own plane, similar to the rules loops in DnD where spells are involved.

Basically, the gods are scientists who live in a Tippyverse, and their mental constructions make them act in such a way that has them fall in the Uncanny Valley.

Also I vote for 5 moons because it is half a rounded number and also a prime number, so for some reason it would be significant to these gods.

[Violet Octopus]

This is what I was judging.

I thought I'd make the question explicit. Even though I'm in an undecided, let-it-be mood myself.

I'm fine with Uncanny Valley as a mood. The Shadow semi-plane idea is already an example, since it makes travel counterintuitively faster on the outside-facing part of the strip.

I was thinking about cables anchored between two points on the edge of the strip, as part of a rapid transit gondola system, but I made a paper model and it doesn't work. Or at least it doesn't work on a strip floating in Euclidean space. Hmmm.

[gkathellar]

With the "two vertical rollers" thing I can see how a Möbius band can work on a machine. However, this does give me an idea... the god(s) who created this world (before it was turned into a Möbius World) could be nuts about the laws of physics and love experimenting with them. They could be pretty human-like, but in their own plane they would have it filled with machinery that spans more than three dimensions, causing stuff like loops in the magic on their own plane, similar to the rules loops in DnD where spells are involved.

Basically, the gods are scientists who live in a Tippyverse, and their mental constructions make them act in such a way that has them fall in the Uncanny Valley.

What if the gods are machines? They can pretend to be human, but they're not very good at it (not even the nice ones), so they end up falling into the Uncanny Valley hard. Mobius World is basically an incredibly complex rats-in-a-maze type experiment, except it has no definite end parameters and they're testing it with their biology experiments rather than proper machine life.

Hm. Mad scientist gods?

I was thinking about cables anchored between two points on the edge of the strip, as part of a rapid transit gondola system, but I made a paper model and it doesn't work. Or at least it doesn't work on a strip floating in Euclidean space. Hmmm.

I wouldn't nitpick this if we weren't moving towards starting a community project about a giant mobius strip world, but "Euclidean space" only exists on perfectly flat surfaces.

[Morph Bark]

What if the gods are machines? They can pretend to be human, but they're not very good at it (not even the nice ones), so they end up falling into the Uncanny Valley hard. Mobius World is basically an incredibly complex rats-in-a-maze type experiment, except it has no definite end parameters and they're testing it with their biology experiments rather than proper machine life.

I was actually thinking that we could have the creator gods be a triumvirate of a construct god, an undead god and one from the Far Realm.

Then, to make matters worse, the Möbius World ends up spontaneously generating a god of its own, who wants to fight for the rights of the living creatures beyond merely being experimental subjects, yet has a mind that is completely unstructured (as in, more Chaotic than fey should be). This god (or goddess) would be bipolar, reflecting the Normal/Shadow Plane nature of the Möbius World and be one of its primary antagonists and at the same time probably the greatest ally the PCs could get. Like a sort of anti-hero/villain.

[Violet Octopus]

I wouldn't nitpick this if we weren't moving towards starting a community project about a giant mobius strip world, but "Euclidean space" only exists on perfectly flat surfaces.

I was referring to the 3-dimensional Euclidean space (i.e. my room) that the strip was floating in, not the strip itself.

(yes I know our universe isn't Euclidean)

[gkathellar]

I was actually thinking that we could have the creator gods be a triumvirate of a construct god, an undead god and one from the Far Realm.

I like that a lot, although I'd want to make clear that in each of these gods' frames of reality, non-horrorterror living beings are more abominations than any of they are. I mean, if they're mad scientists, creating abominations is basically what they do with their day.

Then, to make matters worse, the Möbius World ends up spontaneously generating a god of its own, who wants to fight for the rights of the living creatures beyond merely being experimental subjects, yet has a mind that is completely unstructured (as in, more Chaotic than fey should be). This god (or goddess) would be bipolar, reflecting the Normal/Shadow Plane nature of the Möbius World and be one of its primary antagonists and at the same time probably the greatest ally the PCs could get. Like a sort of anti-hero/villain.

Not so sure about that one. It seems too ... ultimate antagonist-y, I guess? That's always something to avoid in a setting, as far as I'm concerned, because either the players Solve the major conflict of the universe and then everything is sunshine and sparkles and you go have a sandwich, or the major conflict is Unsolvable, and the players' actions have no larger impact.*

I mean, I don't know how I feel about the creator gods being expressly malevolent or tyrannical in the first place. I wouldn't even feel surprised if people on the Strip knew about them solely because they were such bumbling incompetents at science that they're incapable of maintaining a stable control group.

I kind of like the image of three terrifying, inhuman, Uncanny Valley scientist-gods just sort of futzing around and causing trouble.

(yes I know our universe isn't Euclidean)

Apologies, I was just making sure. Didn't mean to offend.

*(The only reason Exalted manages to do a Solvable setting is because there are so many problems, and they're all so huge, that it would take like a decade of dedicated gaming to play through to the end.)

[Violet Octopus]

Morph Bark, any particular reason why you want an undead, construct, and Far Realm god? They're all individually cool, but I'm having trouble seeing why three radically different beings would collaborate on a Möbius World.

Unless they're all in some high school for deities, and have been assigned as lab partners

Apologies, I was just making sure. Didn't mean to offend.

No offense taken . I was under the impression that my earlier comment had been misunderstood.

[Morph Bark]

Morph Bark, any particular reason why you want an undead, construct, and Far Realm god? They're all individually cool, but I'm having trouble seeing why three radically different beings would collaborate on a Möbius World.

Unless they're all in some high school for deities, and have been assigned as lab partners

It was mostly an off-kilter idea. I was just trying to think of three different kinds of Uncanny Valley creatures in standard DnD and came up with those.

Though the lab partners thing sounds hilarious.

[AppleChips]

Because of the nature of a mobius disk, the world on the reverse side of the ribbon from one place is the farthest away from it. This could be shortened greatly by some well constructed or natural tunnels and stairways leading directly through the disk to the opposite side, or maybe stairways along the edge of the disk, depending on how thick it is. While some routes are well-guarded and safe, used by many, others have fallen into disorder and become fraught with peril. The dangers do not come without the possibility of reward though, as the treasures of countless travelers and beasts are strewn about.

[gkathellar]

Though the lab partners thing sounds hilarious.

That could be the story, or it could be a standing theory. If there are only three gods working in relative concert, it's not unreasonable that some people would follow all three. Different religious sects and philosophies could basically be debating questions of who the gods are and why they do what they do.

[Chess435]

I hereby motion that Sonic the Hedgehog should appear somewhere in here.