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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by Chess435 View Post
    I hereby motion that Sonic the Hedgehog should appear somewhere in here.
    ...I knew this was coming...
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  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by zyborg View Post
    ...I knew this was coming...
    For you:
    Spoiler
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    ^~Cody T.~^

    "I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." - Mewtwo

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Wow. That's a big cookie. Thanks so much! Anyways, which Sonic are you referring to? There were a few "canons" that mentioned Mobius (the classic games, the cartoons, etc.), if I'm not mistaken. Though the new games seem to take place on Earth...? At least, the newer setting seems a lot different than Mobius, and more Earth-like...

    Oh, and back on-topic... what would happen if someone tried to travel the 'width' of the world rather than the 'length'?
    Last edited by zyborg; 2011-07-05 at 08:24 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by zyborg View Post
    Wow. That's a big cookie. Thanks so much! Anyways, which Sonic are you referring to?
    This one. Watch it sometime.
    Last edited by Chess435; 2011-07-05 at 10:29 PM.
    ^~Cody T.~^

    "I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." - Mewtwo

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by zyborg View Post
    Oh, and back on-topic... what would happen if someone tried to travel the 'width' of the world rather than the 'length'?
    We try not to think about it.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    A key question: Are people in this world walking on the surface of a Mobius strip, or are they living in a three-dimensional Mobius strip analogue: i.e. a world that has an edge in the width and height dimensions, but which wraps back round on itself, flipped left-right, in the length dimension?

    Because if they were, then people who have been all the way around the world once will be flipped by the process. To them, it will appear that their friends and family have been flipped left-right: so anybody who was left-handed will now be right-handed and vice versa. To their friends and family they will appear to be exactly the same person, but -- again -- flipped left-right.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by zyborg View Post
    Oh, and back on-topic... what would happen if someone tried to travel the 'width' of the world rather than the 'length'?
    I suspect they would fall into the Sun, which is why people either don't live near the Edge, or they have guard rails.

    That said, I don't imagine that this strip is perfectly flat. Tribes of primitives living on the cliffs and the rocks off of the edge is just too good to pass up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whybird View Post
    A key question: Are people in this world walking on the surface of a Mobius strip, or are they living in a three-dimensional Mobius strip analogue: i.e. a world that has an edge in the width and height dimensions, but which wraps back round on itself, flipped left-right, in the length dimension?

    Because if they were, then people who have been all the way around the world once will be flipped by the process. To them, it will appear that their friends and family have been flipped left-right: so anybody who was left-handed will now be right-handed and vice versa. To their friends and family they will appear to be exactly the same person, but -- again -- flipped left-right.
    I'm pretty sure the plan is an actual Mobius strip, and I'm also pretty sure I have no idea what you just said or why that left-right flip would occur.
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    An idea for the Edge: as they used to think in the real world, there are giant "waterfalls". However, on Möbius World, these are made of shadowstuff and go on for miles. The Edge is dotted with shards of of meteorites, comets, moonstone and the like. The moons? Why, they are physicalized manifestations of a sphere of concepts. To say it in mechanical terms: there is a moon for each clerical domain - well not each one, but the most fitting ones (I could see the elemental ones working for instance, thus making the moons into the elemental planes, but not the racial ones or ones based off cultural things.)

    Basically, the Edge is where the most daring people can gather material to use to build gateways to the moons (or, if that makes it go too far, simply use the materials for certain purposes in everyday life). Adventurers are common because it requires specialized teams to go into the Edge, even moreso than the ones who guard people travelling at night (also referred to as "Shadowtime").
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  9. - Top - End - #39
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Wait... a mobius strip is only a paradox in two dimensions. It works fine in three. A moon orbiting around a mobius strip is not really different than a moon oribiting around any line path (sorta like... our moon). Even if the sun is doing some funky things, we really aren't dealing with anything much different from reality.

    If you want three dimensional shenanigans, you need to use a Klein bottle, the 3D analog to a mobius strip.

    Here's an explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazo View Post
    Wait... a mobius strip is only a paradox in two dimensions. It works fine in three. A moon orbiting around a mobius strip is not really different than a moon oribiting around any line path (sorta like... our moon). Even if the sun is doing some funky things, we really aren't dealing with anything much different from reality.
    Wuh? Huh? Paradox? Who said anything about paradoxes? Why do we need paradoxes? Is intentionally confusing people a design goal? Because I just like this idea because it's cool and you can get some spectacular imagery out of it.

    And uh, yeah, the world which is a giant mobius strip is just so much like reality. Where ... you know, things like that happen all the time. Sure, sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL
    D&D is its own momentum and does its own fantasy. It emulates itself in an incestuous mess.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazo View Post
    Wait... a mobius strip is only a paradox in two dimensions. It works fine in three. A moon orbiting around a mobius strip is not really different than a moon oribiting around any line path (sorta like... our moon). Even if the sun is doing some funky things, we really aren't dealing with anything much different from reality.

    If you want three dimensional shenanigans, you need to use a Klein bottle, the 3D analog to a mobius strip.

    Here's an explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle.
    But... what if the Möbius strip is so long that it goes all the way around the sun? (This is the way it is pictured in Fax' OP.) The sun doesn't need to go up and down like that in there though, it could be stationary, but the Strip going all the way around would make the world pretty... huge. This would also mean that travelling at night is actually preferred because it goes so much faster.


    The average orbital speed of the Earth around the Sun is 107,200 km/h and takes a year to go all the way around. I dunno how fast travel generally goes in DnD off the top of my head, but I figure it does not go beyond 50 km/h.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    But... what if the Möbius strip is so long that it goes all the way around the sun? (This is the way it is pictured in Fax' OP.) The sun doesn't need to go up and down like that in there though, it could be stationary, but the Strip going all the way around would make the world pretty... huge. This would also mean that travelling at night is actually preferred because it goes so much faster.


    The average orbital speed of the Earth around the Sun is 107,200 km/h and takes a year to go all the way around. I dunno how fast travel generally goes in DnD off the top of my head, but I figure it does not go beyond 50 km/h.
    Teleport is at least nigh instantaneous by RAW, but that might not change your point.
    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    I'd say the first thing to do is to figure out major thematic elements. A Mobius Strip is such a weird idea for a world that it needs to be clear what kind of ideas that weirdness works with. Is this supposed to be a vaguely comedic weirdness setting, or existential horror, or what? Are we going to be making a lot of math jokes*, or vaguely contemplating the nature of infinity? I think figuring that out is top priority.

    *Even if we don't, it's very important that we be able to punch irrational number monsters in the face.
    Spoiler
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    I don't know if this is applicable but when explaining to people who don't play D&D what Deathless are I often say something vaguely like this:
    If Life is positive numbers, and Death is negative numbers, then Undeath would be the set of numbers you get by multiplying a positive real number by -i*. In which case Deathlessness would be i.
    *For the non-math-geeks in the audience, i = sqrt(-1), which will usually make a computer give up in disgust if you try it, but is a perfectly good number to a mathematician (including, among other things, electrical engineers doing math). i^2 = -1, i^3= -i, and i^4= 1. If you have a number that has both a real and imaginary component (in other words is the sum of a "normal number" and a "crazy number") then it is called a complex number and this is written in the form "a+ib" where a and b are the sorts of numbers that most people are used to dealing with at least once a year or something.

    So this is a good start on inspiration for weirdness, especially if you do something LIKE making the magintude of the vector on the complex plane* for a normal undead, living creature, or deathless its hit-dice. This, incidentally, strongly implies that negative levels (which, remember, deathless and undead are traditionally immune to) are "death hitdice". Now imagine (ha ha) that you allow complex numbers (or at least those with a non-negative real component) to be applicable for creatures on Mobius World. Perhaps hit-dice would be a+b, but I think it would be a better math joke to provide a table for sqrt(a^2+b^2) and use that for everything where the rules of the game refer to somethings hit-dice. This would mean that you could have a character with 4 levels of wizard, and 6 racial hitdice for being turned into some sort of undead monstrousity. Said character might be 60% undead, and thus MIGHT MAYBE have a 60% chance of being healed by negative energy. Elsewise the negative energy would harm them (if people actually go full-bore with the madness I am proposing). Their hitdice for things that use hitdice (including level advancement, thus making up for the disadvantages of the healing thing?) would either be 10, or calculated as follows:
    sqrt((4^2)+(6^2))
    =sqrt(16+36)
    =sqrt(52)
    ~= 7.211 hit-dice.

    Undead and Deathless hitdice would either instantly cancel each-other out if they ended up on the same creature, or act like negative levels on each-other.

    *Simplified version for the non-mathy: The complex plane can be thought of as a two dimensional graph, much like the familiar (X,Y) graph, where the coordinates are (a,b) for complex numbers. The distance from the origin to a given point is the magnitude of the vector.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2011-07-06 at 04:30 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    I suppose one of the big questions is how quickly the mobius strip rotates... is it a daily cycle, or longer? I know the original concept was for it to be daily, but it still bears thinking about; if the surface of each strip is slightly curved it would be possible to have day and night without them needing to be defined by the rotation of the strip, for example, at a cross section of the strip:

    Spoiler
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    In this imagining, the seasons would rapidly change from summer to winter as the turn in the strip is reached, and dependent on the length of said seasons times could be very hard; imagine if the strip took 20 years (as a random example plucked from nowhere) to rotate, you'd have 20 years of summer followed by 20 years of winter, during which only the areas closest to the edge of the strip would be habitable. In this scenario mass migration, both from the centre of the strip to the outside and movement in time with the twist, would be common and likely a source of conflict. Some civilisations would favour staying put and weathering the storm, while others would be forever on the move. Cities that are prosperous in the summer become deserted and frozen wastelands in the winter, only to be returned to in happier times.

    In fact maybe this setup is designed specifically for the purpose of making life hard for the people of the world? Maybe in times past they tried to rise against the gods, and their ringworld was twisted to prevent any civilisation becoming so powerful again.
    Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
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    I don't know if this is applicable but when explaining to people who don't play D&D what Deathless are I often say something vaguely like this:
    If Life is positive numbers, and Death is negative numbers, then Undeath would be the set of numbers you get by multiplying a positive real number by -i*. In which case Deathlessness would be i.
    *For the non-math-geeks in the audience, i = sqrt(-1), which will usually make a computer give up in disgust if you try it, but is a perfectly good number to a mathematician (including, among other things, electrical engineers doing math). i^2 = -1, i^3= -i, and i^4= 1. If you have a number that has both a real and imaginary component (in other words is the sum of a "normal number" and a "crazy number") then it is called a complex number and this is written in the form "a+ib" where a and b are the sorts of numbers that most people are used to dealing with at least once a year or something.

    So this is a good start on inspiration for weirdness, especially if you do something LIKE making the magintude of the vector on the complex plane* for a normal undead, living creature, or deathless its hit-dice. This, incidentally, strongly implies that negative levels (which, remember, deathless and undead are traditionally immune to) are "death hitdice". Now imagine (ha ha) that you allow complex numbers (or at least those with a non-negative real component) to be applicable for creatures on Mobius World. Perhaps hit-dice would be a+b, but I think it would be a better math joke to provide a table for sqrt(a^2+b^2) and use that for everything where the rules of the game refer to somethings hit-dice. This would mean that you could have a character with 4 levels of wizard, and 6 racial hitdice for being turned into some sort of undead monstrousity. Said character might be 60% undead, and thus MIGHT MAYBE have a 60% chance of being healed by negative energy. Elsewise the negative energy would harm them (if people actually go full-bore with the madness I am proposing). Their hitdice for things that use hitdice (including level advancement, thus making up for the disadvantages of the healing thing?) would either be 10, or calculated as follows:
    sqrt((4^2)+(6^2))
    =sqrt(16+36)
    =sqrt(52)
    ~= 7.211 hit-dice.

    Undead and Deathless hitdice would either instantly cancel each-other out if they ended up on the same creature, or act like negative levels on each-other.

    *Simplified version for the non-mathy: The complex plane can be thought of as a two dimensional graph, much like the familiar (X,Y) graph, where the coordinates are (a,b) for complex numbers. The distance from the origin to a given point is the magnitude of the vector.
    Speaking as someone with none of the technical skill necessary to follow math past a high-school level, I like this. But I also don't know how good an idea it is to put this kind of thing right at the core of this setting. I'm the rare humanities person who likes abstract thinking enough to appreciate what mathematics does, but a lot of people get alienated by it.Having this kind of fun, counter-intuitive mathematical reasoning isn't a bad thing, but we should be sure that understanding it isn't necessary to understand the setting.

    That said, I really like the idea of negative levels as Death Hit Dice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    In this imagining, the seasons would rapidly change from summer to winter as the turn in the strip is reached, and dependent on the length of said seasons times could be very hard; imagine if the strip took 20 years (as a random example plucked from nowhere) to rotate, you'd have 20 years of summer followed by 20 years of winter, during which only the areas closest to the edge of the strip would be habitable. In this scenario mass migration, both from the centre of the strip to the outside and movement in time with the twist, would be common and likely a source of conflict. Some civilisations would favour staying put and weathering the storm, while others would be forever on the move. Cities that are prosperous in the summer become deserted and frozen wastelands in the winter, only to be returned to in happier times.
    Eh ... I'm against it. Migratory civilizations have an essentially different makeup than sedentary ones (not to mention the fact that you can expect technological levels to be much lower), and as a social setting I kind of feel it works better for tribes and large groups than it does for bands of dynamic individuals striking out on their own. Also, I guess it just feels like there are only so many big, campaign-friendly stories you can tell in such a setting.

    Not to mention the logistical problems. Either transportation technology (including magic) would have to be pretty good, or the world is pretty small.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    In fact maybe this setup is designed specifically for the purpose of making life hard for the people of the world? Maybe in times past they tried to rise against the gods, and their ringworld was twisted to prevent any civilisation becoming so powerful again.
    I've never been much for this phaux-Abrahamic/Greek "the gods are punishing us for our hubris" approach to a game setting. It either makes the gods into a bunch of cackling tyrants or mortals into a bunch of idiot children who need to be saved/punished. That's a central, resolvable conflict which is great for myths, books, religions and adventures and not so good for a setting.
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL
    D&D is its own momentum and does its own fantasy. It emulates itself in an incestuous mess.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Speaking as someone with none of the technical skill necessary to follow math past a high-school level, I like this. But I also don't know how good an idea it is to put this kind of thing right at the core of this setting. I'm the rare humanities person who likes abstract thinking enough to appreciate what mathematics does, but a lot of people get alienated by it.Having this kind of fun, counter-intuitive mathematical reasoning isn't a bad thing, but we should be sure that understanding it isn't necessary to understand the setting.

    That said, I really like the idea of negative levels as Death Hit Dice.
    I can reduce all the math that people have to actually DO down to addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, plus a few (maybe just ONE) look-up tables for the stuff that is more complicated than that. Those who know a bit more math can replace the look-up table with a calculator, and those who know a lot more math will actually "get the jokes".

    It wasn't me who suggested that the setting should be based around weird mathematics, I just ran with the idea. It seems to me that this might be WEIRD enough to those that don't "get it" (and even those that do) to add to the surreal "reality is out to lunch" feel that some people seem to in favor of here.

    In fact, just for discussion purposes (it took me about 5 minutes with the help of Excel + Notepad + MS Word), here are versions 0.1 and 0.2 of said lookup table (not trying to say which is superior to the other) :
    Spoiler
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    Numbers across top are number of non-deathless, non-undead hitdice. Numbers along the side are number of hitdice from deathless OR undead hitdice (Since no creature may have both). Number at intersection of row and column is the number of effective hitdice that the creature has (for whatever purpose(s) one might be using effective hitdice).


    Simpler version:
    {Table=head]~|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11

    1|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11

    2|2|3|4|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11

    3|3|4|4|5|6|7|8|9|9|10|11

    4|4|4|5|6|6|7|8|9|10|11|12

    5|5|5|6|6|7|8|9|9|10|11|12

    6|6|6|7|7|8|8|9|10|11|12|13

    7|7|7|8|8|9|9|10|11|11|12|13

    8|8|8|9|9|9|10|11|11|12|13|14

    9|9|9|9|10|10|11|11|12|13|13|14

    10|10|10|10|11|11|12|12|13|13|14|15

    11|11|11|11|12|12|13|13|14|14|15|16

    12|12|12|12|13|13|13|14|14|15|16|16

    13|13|13|13|14|14|14|15|15|16|16|17

    14|14|14|14|15|15|15|16|16|17|17|18

    15|15|15|15|16|16|16|17|17|17|18|19

    16|16|16|16|16|17|17|17|18|18|19|19

    17|17|17|17|17|18|18|18|19|19|20|20
    18|18|18|18|18|19|19|19|20|20|21|21

    19|19|19|19|19|20|20|20|21|21|21|22

    20|20|20|20|20|21|21|21|22|22|22|23[/Table]

    To three decimal places (because if 1/2=0.5 is a usable number for hitdice, maybe 1.414 is too... or at least 1.4 = 1 2/5)
    Table=head]~|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|16|17|18|19| 20

    1|1.414|2.236|3.162|4.123|5.099|6.083|7.071|8.062| 9.055|10.050|11.045|12.042|13.038|14.036|15.033|16 .031|17.029|18.028|19.026|20.025

    2|2.236|2.828|3.606|4.472|5.385|6.325|7.280|8.246| 9.220|10.198|11.180|12.166|13.153|14.142|15.133|16 .125|17.117|18.111|19.105|20.100

    3|3.162|3.606|4.243|5.000|5.831|6.708|7.616|8.544| 9.487|10.440|11.402|12.369|13.342|14.318|15.297|16 .279|17.263|18.248|19.235|20.224

    4|4.123|4.472|5.000|5.657|6.403|7.211|8.062|8.944| 9.849|10.770|11.705|12.649|13.601|14.560|15.524|16 .492|17.464|18.439|19.416|20.396

    5|5.099|5.385|5.831|6.403|7.071|7.810|8.602|9.434| 10.296|11.180|12.083|13.000|13.928|14.866|15.811|1 6.763|17.720|18.682|19.647|20.616

    6|6.083|6.325|6.708|7.211|7.810|8.485|9.220|10.000 |10.817|11.662|12.530|13.416|14.318|15.232|16.155| 17.088|18.028|18.974|19.925|20.881

    7|7.071|7.280|7.616|8.062|8.602|9.220|9.899|10.630 |11.402|12.207|13.038|13.892|14.765|15.652|16.553| 17.464|18.385|19.313|20.248|21.190

    8|8.062|8.246|8.544|8.944|9.434|10.000|10.630|11.3 14|12.042|12.806|13.601|14.422|15.264|16.125|17.00 0|17.889|18.788|19.698|20.616|21.541

    9|9.055|9.220|9.487|9.849|10.296|10.817|11.402|12. 042|12.728|13.454|14.213|15.000|15.811|16.643|17.4 93|18.358|19.235|20.125|21.024|21.932

    10|10.050|10.198|10.440|10.770|11.180|11.662|12.20 7|12.806|13.454|14.142|14.866|15.620|16.401|17.205 |18.028|18.868|19.723|20.591|21.471|22.361

    11|11.045|11.180|11.402|11.705|12.083|12.530|13.03 8|13.601|14.213|14.866|15.556|16.279|17.029|17.804 |18.601|19.416|20.248|21.095|21.954|22.825

    12|12.042|12.166|12.369|12.649|13.000|13.416|13.89 2|14.422|15.000|15.620|16.279|16.971|17.692|18.439 |19.209|20.000|20.809|21.633|22.472|23.324

    13|13.038|13.153|13.342|13.601|13.928|14.318|14.76 5|15.264|15.811|16.401|17.029|17.692|18.385|19.105 |19.849|20.616|21.401|22.204|23.022|23.854

    14|14.036|14.142|14.318|14.560|14.866|15.232|15.65 2|16.125|16.643|17.205|17.804|18.439|19.105|19.799 |20.518|21.260|22.023|22.804|23.601|24.413

    15|15.033|15.133|15.297|15.524|15.811|16.155|16.55 3|17.000|17.493|18.028|18.601|19.209|19.849|20.518 |21.213|21.932|22.672|23.431|24.207|25.000

    16|16.031|16.125|16.279|16.492|16.763|17.088|17.46 4|17.889|18.358|18.868|19.416|20.000|20.616|21.260 |21.932|22.627|23.345|24.083|24.839|25.612

    17|17.029|17.117|17.263|17.464|17.720|18.028|18.38 5|18.788|19.235|19.723|20.248|20.809|21.401|22.023 |22.672|23.345|24.042|24.759|25.495|26.249

    18|18.028|18.111|18.248|18.439|18.682|18.974|19.31 3|19.698|20.125|20.591|21.095|21.633|22.204|22.804 |23.431|24.083|24.759|25.456|26.173|26.907

    19|19.026|19.105|19.235|19.416|19.647|19.925|20.24 8|20.616|21.024|21.471|21.954|22.472|23.022|23.601 |24.207|24.839|25.495|26.173|26.870|27.586

    20|20.025|20.100|20.224|20.396|20.616|20.881|21.19 0|21.541|21.932|22.361|22.825|23.324|23.854|24.413 |25.000|25.612|26.249|26.907|27.586|28.284[/Table]





    Again, this is all still just brainstorming on my part. I was just trying to prove that you wouldn't have to have a college-level understanding of math to PLAY with the set of rules I am describing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    It wasn't me who suggested that the setting should be based around weird mathematics, I just ran with the idea. It seems to me that this might be WEIRD enough to those that don't "get it" (and even those that do) to add to the surreal "reality is out to lunch" feel that some people seem to in favor of here.
    Neither was it me, I was just the one to suggest that it should be based around weird physics.

    Personally, I am not digging the idea of Death Hit Dice if I need to consult a table to know "effective Hit Dice".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Neither was it me, I was just the one to suggest that it should be based around weird physics.
    Perhaps I misunderstood and nobody suggested weird math/science in general.
    I do consider mathmatics and physics to be pretty inter-related. (Un)happy accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Personally, I am not digging the idea of Death Hit Dice if I need to consult a table to know "effective Hit Dice".
    Minor note: You only need the chart for creatures that are both alive and undead/deathless (or as I discuss below, MAYBE for creatures that are both undead/deathless and dead).

    The two don't HAVE to go together, but my idea of "Death Hit Dice" doesn't actually change the way negative levels and level loss actually work. If you have some ideas for how they could be used in a mechanical sense that would be useful. My idea only went as far as if we used the pure imaginary numbers are Deathlessness and Undeath idea. I guess that the magnitude of the vector could remain unused in my original idea.
    I guess that leaves two parts of my idea that still could be used if we want to avoid the table:
    1. undead and deathless hitdice affecting eachother like negative levels.
    2. Creatures being allowed to be both alive and undead OR alive and deathless at the same time.

    ...actually, now that I write this, maybe deathless and undead could have negative levels that never go away (since there is no positive real component for them to cancel out with), and provide DIFFERENT penalties than they would on a living creature, which in some way are the reverse of the beneficial ways that being both undead and alive interact... or since a lot of those interactions are detrimental (difficult and/or risky to heal etc) then maybe undead/deathless could somehow BENEFIT from death hitdice? But then they would need to be harder to obtain, and probably more transitory. In other words, maybe instead of the fortitude save to negate a negative level 24 hours later, they have to make a fortitude save every 24 hours to KEEP each negative level. Maybe undead that inflict negative levels can't get death hitdice by touching themselves or eachother, but CAN gain them, as a REQUIRED substitution for the SRD benefits they get for inflicting negative levels (temp. hitpoint gain I think) by successfully using their negative level inducing attacks on living creatures?

    Alternatively maybe the whole complex numbers thing could just be used as fluff?

    Well, that is enough brainstorming for one post.

    Have I sparked any ideas in anyone else?
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    believe it or not, what Draco is describing was covered in high school math. (At least as I remembered it. Of course, we covered trig at the end of geometry, and no one else remembered it when it came back up again).


    just think of it as the different hit dice are travel in different directions. This is actually where my D&D breaks down rather than my math. I get the Math. having undead levels is like going west, having live levels is like going north. having "dead levels" (is that even possible?) is like going south. and having "deathless" levels is like going east.

    if you 3 miles east and 4 miles north you are only 5 miles from where you started.

    thats the essential Idea.

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    Erictheredd: Thanks for the explaination, it probably helps people. You were off in one regard.
    Quote Originally Posted by erictheredd View Post
    having undead levels is like going west, having live levels is like going north. having "dead levels" (is that even possible?) is like going south. and having "deathless" levels is like going east.
    You need to rotate that graph 90 degrees clockwise with respect to the compass-rose and then flip it across a vertical axis to get the view I was using (assuming that north is up-page). Not that is makes any difference in the math, but it is good to keep things consistent especially when trying to make things as easily understood as possible.
    In other words, Life is East, Undeath is South, Death is West, and Deathlessness is North. East/West is the Real axis, and North-South is the Imaginary axis. Positive directions are what gets healed by positive energy in the form of Cure X Wounds type spells, negative directions get either healed or unaffected by Inflict type spells.
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    I agree with gkathellar about how "the gods are punishing us for our hubris" creates problems for a setting. However, I am attracted to Avaris's suggestion of the twist not being a daily cycle. As I mentioned before, I'm interested in regular seismic activity being a feature, but daily earthquakes seems a bit much.

    The migratory aspect of long winters is also appealing, though it occurs to me that sufficiently advanced societies could tap the geothermal energy of the strip to keep warm in winter, generate light, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    But... what if the Möbius strip is so long that it goes all the way around the sun? (This is the way it is pictured in Fax' OP.) The sun doesn't need to go up and down like that in there though, it could be stationary, but the Strip going all the way around would make the world pretty... huge. This would also mean that travelling at night is actually preferred because it goes so much faster.
    A D&D sun doesn't have to follow real-life stellar physics. The strip can be as big or small as we want and still have a sun in the middle. Larry Niven's Ringworld is the size of Earth's orbit, and has the surface area of ~3 million Earths. A setting that huge would be a horror to map and would make one of the conceits of a Mobius strip (circumnavigating it) implausible in a low-technology setting.

    edit: Somehow I forgot about Shadow Semi-Planar travel, so circumnavigation wouldn't be impossible. However, I think I'd prefer for it to be possible to circumnavigate on sunside, just impractical compared to shadowside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    A D&D sun doesn't have to follow real-life stellar physics. The strip can be as big or small as we want and still have a sun in the middle. Larry Niven's Ringworld is the size of Earth's orbit, and has the surface area of ~3 million Earths. A setting that huge would be a horror to map and would make one of the conceits of a Mobius strip (circumnavigating it) implausible in a low-technology setting.

    edit: Somehow I forgot about Shadow Semi-Planar travel, so circumnavigation wouldn't be impossible. However, I think I'd prefer for it to be possible to circumnavigate on sunside, just impractical compared to shadowside.
    Well, an idea for the sun is of course that it is actually created by a hole in reality through which essence of the Plane of Positive Energy or the Plane of Fire leaks. If we don't go for that, the largest we could have the sun be would be 0.4 times the size of the Sun, so the size of the Möbius World would be... what, 0.064 times Earth's orbit?

    Let's say for a moment we go for this idea, then the length of the Möbius World will be roughly (9.216^13)*pi in kilometers.

    ...hmmm yeah, let's keep it simple and small. :P
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    If it is merely the flip in the strip that is moving, the sun doesn't have to have an orbiting path at all. Some simple math: If you want the strip to be about the surface area of earth, it's dimensions should be a width of x and a perimeter of (Earth's SA)/2x, or x and 255036000/x, assuming we don't care about the edge of the strip, etc. (kilometers)
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    Quote Originally Posted by AppleChips View Post
    If it is merely the flip in the strip that is moving, the sun doesn't have to have an orbiting path at all. Some simple math: If you want the strip to be about the surface area of earth, it's dimensions should be a width of x and a perimeter of (Earth's SA)/2x, or x and 255036000/x, assuming we don't care about the edge of the strip, etc. (kilometers)
    Is that taking into account both sides of the trip or no?
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    Both sides? There's only one side, and it's full of stars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Is that taking into account both sides of the trip or no?
    Judging by the math, it takes into account both sides of the strip.
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    I assume the solar movement cycle is intended to provide seasons? If so, is summer when the sun is right in the middle of the strip, and winter when the sun is on either extreme end? So one full year would be eight seasons instead of four?

    Quote Originally Posted by AppleChips View Post
    Because of the nature of a mobius disk, the world on the reverse side of the ribbon from one place is the farthest away from it. This could be shortened greatly by some well constructed or natural tunnels and stairways leading directly through the disk to the opposite side, or maybe stairways along the edge of the disk, depending on how thick it is. While some routes are well-guarded and safe, used by many, others have fallen into disorder and become fraught with peril. The dangers do not come without the possibility of reward though, as the treasures of countless travelers and beasts are strewn about.
    Yeah, this is basically the appeal that I was hoping for in a Mobius world. The idea that the furthest-away part of the world is also the closest part of the world, if you can go through one of the tunnels that leads right through the world. (Gravity reversing itself halfway through is only one of the many fun results.) What kind of socioeconomic/cartographic madness does this lead to? At the very least, such tunnels will be very important trade routes.

    This could be combined with some of the other ideas people have mentioned. Such as the regions directly opposite each other being eerily similar to each other in some respect ... or eerily different?

    Are locations on the "other side" of the strip surprisingly easy to teleport to, even though they're very far away by conventional travel? Or does teleportation that passes "through" the strip fail? Or does teleportation to the other side work, but requires you to measure the distance involved along the surface of the strip rather than going the more direct route?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chess435 View Post
    I hereby motion that Sonic the Hedgehog should appear somewhere in here.
    Hmmm. Maybe an oblique reference ... like the main public transportation system (which goes all the way around the strip, lengthwise ... maybe it only goes one-way, because you can still get everywhere!) being very fast, and taking the form of a spiky blue ball?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    I assume the solar movement cycle is intended to provide seasons? If so, is summer when the sun is right in the middle of the strip, and winter when the sun is on either extreme end? So one full year would be eight seasons instead of four?
    That was the intention, yes.
    Last edited by Fax Celestis; 2011-07-12 at 10:11 AM.

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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    I think the number of seasons would still be 4. Summer when the sun is on the close end, winter when at the extreme far end, and either spring or fall in between depending on the direction of movement. Of course, if the ring itself doesn't rotate, but only the flip, the seasons will be very average on the sides of the ring. Which is basically like the equator.

    Edit: This really depends on how close the sun is to the world. If it's weak enough and far enough, it would only give summer heat when at the middle (or close by) and be pretty cool when at either of the far reaches of it's orbit, but as depicted in the OP's illustration, it looks like the 4 seasons I mentioned earlier would make more sense.

    Edit again: I just realized that the sun is orbiting up and down, not around the disk in a figure-eight as I had thought. So probably the 8 seasons thing.
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    Default Re: [World Construction] Möbius World

    Of course, all this assumes that seasons are a result of distance from the sun as they are in our world. Because, you know, magic.

    On themes, imagery, etc: how do people feel about unity vs. dualism? Constant opposition of mutually essential forces, peoples, ideas and visuals. Because that's sort of what a mobius strip is — two sides of an object joined together so it only has one side.
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