A Little Campaign Advice Please

[SleepyShadow]

I have a dilemma, and in all my years of gaming I have never had this occur before. I am hoping I can get some advice from the ever-helpful Playgrounders at large

In my campaign, we have a fairly diverse group of players and PCs alike. We have a Druid, a Paladin, a Wizard, a Paladin/Wizard gish, a Healer, and an AoO Fighter. Except for the NE fighter, everyone else is good aligned.

My dilemma occurred during last night's game session: The party encountered the BBEG, a Succubus Swordsage named Valenessa. As any good villainess, she bantered with the party and explained why she was doing what she was doing. She did not use any charm magic, threats, or anything of that ilk. Just when I was getting ready to declare initiative rolls, the druid, who had been listening to Valenessa rather intently, caught me off-guard.

"I agree with what you are saying. I think we should help you."

I was doubly shocked when everyone else in the party agreed with her, including the paladins. Now, I've ran a few evil campaigns before, so that is not really my issue.

My entire gaming group is teaming up with my BBEG for world domination. What should I do?

[hivedragon]

It would help it if you tell us what the succubi's plan for world dommination and her reasoning behind it.

[Comet]

Just run with it, says I, but make sure they haven't misunderstood anything about the Succubus' motivations and plans. Things could get awkward down the road if the players ally with the villain and then later find out that they completely misunderstood the situation and now look like massive tools

[Frosty]

It would help it if you tell us what the succubi's plan for world dommination and her reasoning behind it.

Also, if the plan is actually evil, then the Paladins should Fall right there. That'd be a big hint.

[SleepyShadow]

Her plan is ... ambiguously evil. Valenessa is trying to kill and/or usurp Azalin Rex. She is not doing this because she is interested in promoting the well being of the common people, nor is she doing this because he is an evil tyrant. She is trying to take over Darkon because she thinks Azalin is an incompetent leader who allowed far too much corruption and chaos to fester in his realm (Yeah yeah, LE demon, I know). Valenessa thinks she can do a better job of ruling than Azalin.

If she and the PCs succeed in that, her plan is to invade Falkovnia, since Falkovnia is a proven enemy of Darkon. If she can, she wants to rule that land as well. She does not care that the people of Falkovnia are suffering, she views it as unnecessary suffering. If people are going to suffer, it needs to be for a worthwhile cause, not just because the leader of the country is callous and stupid.

The players know all of this, and that's my dilemma. My players think that she has a valid viewpoint. I don't necessarily want to punish the players simply because they think they are doing the right thing. It seems they are viewing this as a "lesser of two evils" situation.

[SamBurke]

They are kinda in the right. It's off the wall, but I might do it too. The Paladins should not fall, as they can argue that they were doing it as it was a greater good than the current rulers.

Also, they're trying to hose you. Somehow, they're going to wreck the campaign. YOU KNOW IT.

My suggestion: run with it. So many interesting ideas. Use her to split up the party. In fact, if possible, get the paladins on opposing sides. That would be VERY interesting, if you ask me.

[Steward]

Do they really want the succubus to win, or are they planning to use her solely for the purpose of toppling another evil villain?

Would it be a hardship for you (in terms of planning, worldbuilding, etc.) to let them ally with the succubus for the purpose of defeating this other villain? If you want the succubus to remain the ultimate villain, you could just reveal or emphasize that she's going to threaten innocent people, so that the players have a reason to want to stop her in the end even if they cooperate with her now.

I'm not sure if the Paladin code allows you to team up with a demon to topple an evil magician though.

[erikun]

So the succubus shows up in front of the party, says that an well-known evil lich is a cruel, corrupt, incompetent tyrant and that she would do far better to take him down and rule in his stead.

This sounds far more like a "misunderstood good-aligned evil-outsider" NPC than an evil overlord plotting the destruction of the world.

I'd say run with it. The party probably thinks she is good, or just thinks working together to defeat Azalin is a positive. Either turn her into an actual good-aligned Succubus who does worry about the people and has to overcome the kneejerk reactions from most people to aiding her, or keep her evil and let the party deal with an ally who eats people and gladly sacrifices her own men for her own good.

Unless she divulged her plans over enslaving people and using them as cattle, I'm not too sure the party has done anything evil yet (including no falling Paladins). Working with her after she sets her own men on fire to break through a blockade, though, would change things.

[SleepyShadow]

The more I think about it, the more I like the sound of this idea. It certainly is unusual, but it definitely has merit. Given the party's current level, they aren't likely to go up against Azalin anytime soon, but the party is already working on a plan to take out one of his generals.

Unorthodox, but it will be an interesting twist on the campaign nonetheless. Thanks for the advice. I'll just let this play out, and see what the players are up to. Besides, if nothing else the paladins can now qualify for Blackguard

[Engine]

In my campaign, we have a fairly diverse group of players and PCs alike. We have a Druid, a Paladin, a Wizard, a Paladin/Wizard gish, a Healer, and an AoO Fighter. Except for the NE fighter, everyone else is good aligned.

My dilemma occurred during last night's game session: The party encountered the BBEG, a Succubus Swordsage named Valenessa. As any good villainess, she bantered with the party and explained why she was doing what she was doing. She did not use any charm magic, threats, or anything of that ilk. Just when I was getting ready to declare initiative rolls, the druid, who had been listening to Valenessa rather intently, caught me off-guard.

"I agree with what you are saying. I think we should help you."

I was doubly shocked when everyone else in the party agreed with her, including the paladins. Now, I've ran a few evil campaigns before, so that is not really my issue.

My entire gaming group is teaming up with my BBEG for world domination. What should I do?

First & foremost, both the Paladins should fall. Maybe they're doing it to defeat Azalin Rex, but we're speaking of a demon here: a being of pure evil. Every Paladin should know all too well that an alliance of this kind couldn't bring any good.

Second, you should ask your players what they understood of the succubus' plan: maybe they just misunderstood her and some clarification could bring the campaing back on its track (in this case do not strip the Paladins of their powers and an Atonement spell could do the job).

Third, if you see they understood all too well what the succubus wants to do go along with that: prepare for the slaughter. It could be a great campaign, with a "fallen heroes" flavor.

As a Chaotic Evil NPC, the succubus could probably try to sow dissent in the darkonian people and she could use the party as a nice face to cause unrest. In Darkon the secret police (the Kargat) is greatly feared and the party could try to oppose it in the name of the common people. The succubus could use her charms to bring any noble she could to her side, secretly, so when the time is right these peons could aid her spreading chaos. The party could do that aswell, a good chance to bring to the table some diplomacy (and I'm not speaking of the skill). In the end, you could shift your campaign to a one full of intrigue (the succubus should use the party as peons, and should always try to outsmart them) and diplomacy (common people and nobles alike should be conviced that the party could protect them from Azalin's wrath). So when his key men are killed and most of his forces are spread in Darkon trying to keep things in order the party could try to take him out.

I suggest you to try to corrupt the characters, starting with minor evil acts until you say to a player "Ok, your character now is Neutral". Ravenloft is a harsh setting, and the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[HalfDragonCube]

Just remind the paladins that they are supposed to be good first, law second.

Safety a close third.

[SleepyShadow]

First & foremost, both the Paladins should fall. Maybe they're doing it to defeat Azalin Rex, but we're speaking of a demon here: a being of pure evil. Every Paladin should know all too well that an alliance of this kind couldn't bring any good.

I'm waiting to see what they do before I declare that they have fallen. They might try to convert her to the Light Side. Having a bad friend does not make you a bad person, but letting them do bad things when you can stop them does.

Second, you should ask your players what they understood of the succubus' plan: maybe they just misunderstood her and some clarification could bring the campaing back on its track (in this case do not strip the Paladins of their powers and an Atonement spell could do the job).

The players understand her full well. As with any good villain's exposition, she spilled the beans in their entirety.

Third, if you see they understood all too well what the succubus wants to do go along with that: prepare for the slaughter. It could be a great campaign, with a "fallen heroes" flavor.

That's the plan

As a Chaotic Evil NPC, the succubus could probably try to sow dissent in the darkonian people and she could use the party as a nice face to cause unrest. In Darkon the secret police (the Kargat) is greatly feared and the party could try to oppose it in the name of the common people. The succubus could use her charms to bring any noble she could to her side, secretly, so when the time is right these peons could aid her spreading chaos. The party could do that aswell, a good chance to bring to the table some diplomacy (and I'm not speaking of the skill). In the end, you could shift your campaign to a one full of intrigue (the succubus should use the party as peons, and should always try to outsmart them) and diplomacy (common people and nobles alike should be conviced that the party could protect them from Azalin's wrath). So when his key men are killed and most of his forces are spread in Darkon trying to keep things in order the party could try to take him out.

As I believe I stated in an earlier post, Valenessa is Lawful Evil, not Chaotic Evil. She is a LE Unarmed Swordsage, and I am planning on having her go into the Soul Eater PrC at some point. Class aside, the whole reason she is doing this is because she detests chaos. She does not want control, she needs it. She used to be chaotic at some point, but actions dictate alignment, after all, so she is not going to be trying to sow chaos. She wants to put a stop to it.

I suggest you to try to corrupt the characters, starting with minor evil acts until you say to a player "Ok, your character now is Neutral". Ravenloft is a harsh setting, and the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I know this full well. The druid already has taken the first step on the Path of Corruption when she fled a battle and let the bard (now the paladin/wizard) get slaughtered so that she could escape. The fighter is on step 3 of The Path for killing innocents when the paladins were not around.

I do not need to lead them unto temptation. They can find it themselves.

[Engine]

I'm waiting to see what they do before I declare that they have fallen. They might try to convert her to the Light Side. Having a bad friend does not make you a bad person, but letting them do bad things when you can stop them does.

We're not talking about having a bad friend: we're talking about working FOR a bad friend. And by the way Paladins should avoid at all costs this kind of situation: poorly worded as it is the Code of Conduct, the part in which says a Paladin couldn't knowingly associate with an evil person is pretty clear. You could ignore it, of course.

The players understand her full well. As with any good villain's exposition, she spilled the beans in their entirety.

Good for them, then.

As I believe I stated in an earlier post, Valenessa is Lawful Evil, not Chaotic Evil. She is a LE Unarmed Swordsage, and I am planning on having her go into the Soul Eater PrC at some point. Class aside, the whole reason she is doing this is because she detests chaos. She does not want control, she needs it. She used to be chaotic at some point, but actions dictate alignment, after all, so she is not going to be trying to sow chaos. She wants to put a stop to it.

Sorry, thinking about a standard succubus. Anyway, the whole sow dissent thing could still apply: she thinks Azalin is a bad ruler, and the best way to demonstrate this is showing everyone how much darkonians hate him so she could step in to take control and bring the rightful order in the domain.

[hydroplatypus]

Although the possibility of fallen heros is intriguing and awesome you should consider that the party might actually have a plan for this. In this situation my neutral/good characters might help overthrow the ruler, but then turn on the succubus and instal a better ruler. Prepare for this on the off chance the PCs actually have a good idea.

[SleepyShadow]

Although the possibility of fallen heros is intriguing and awesome you should consider that the party might actually have a plan for this. In this situation my neutral/good characters might help overthrow the ruler, but then turn on the succubus and instal a better ruler. Prepare for this on the off chance the PCs actually have a good idea.

Honestly, that's what I'm hoping for. Knowing my players, I'm sure that they are thinking of something. I just hope it's something leaning more toward the Good spectrum. This might actually split the party though, as the druid's player has more than once said that Valenessa's snarky attitude and dry humor is "absolutely adorable".

We're not talking about having a bad friend: we're talking about working FOR a bad friend. And by the way Paladins should avoid at all costs this kind of situation: poorly worded as it is the Code of Conduct, the part in which says a Paladin couldn't knowingly associate with an evil person is pretty clear. You could ignore it, of course.

This tends to fall apart in Ravenloft, though. Paladins no longer have the ability to Detect Evil. Instead, they have Detect Chaos, Detect Outsider, and Detect Innocence. It's a sticky situation to make a paladin outright fall for this when A) They at least claim they believe they are doing the right thing, and B) There is no mechanical way to Detect Evil in Ravenloft.

[Gabe the Bard]

If you run with it, and the players try to redeem the evildoer, you could have the succubus pretend to renounce her evil ways in a believable way. Then, once her plan have been fulfilled, she can betray the party, assuming that the heroes haven't already figured her out and turned on her first. This way, the paladins don't have to fall, since they've been duped into working for the succubus, and you can still use the succubus as the BBEG.

[Engine]

This tends to fall apart in Ravenloft, though. Paladins no longer have the ability to Detect Evil. Instead, they have Detect Chaos, Detect Outsider, and Detect Innocence. It's a sticky situation to make a paladin outright fall for this when A) They at least claim they believe they are doing the right thing, and B) There is no mechanical way to Detect Evil in Ravenloft.

Yes, but:

1)The succubus is a demon, so there's already a good chance she's evil;
2)Her plan isn't that good, at least for what I read here;
3)They tried to vanquish her before, so probably she did something wrong.

Anyway I don't want to start another Paladin's argument: let's say we disagree on this topic.

[Saintheart]

I have a dilemma, and in all my years of gaming I have never had this occur before. I am hoping I can get some advice from the ever-helpful Playgrounders at large

It's a full moon tomorrow. Blame it on that.

[Jay R]

This is easy, actually. She knows the paladins will eventually turn on her, so she isn't agreeing to join with them; she's betraying them. Plan the adventure in which she will lead them into a death trap, or attack them, or imprison them, or some such. That'll set them on the right path.

You can't insist that the heroes be heroic, but you can certainly guarantee than the villain will be villainous.

[Stubbazubba]

Absolutely; the succubus, apparently an obsessive control freak, will use the party as pawns until she feels they are more of a threat to her authority than an expedient, and will have plans ready to deal with them. Try to turn the party against each other, make appeals to the Druid or whatever it may be, but have the (hopefully) ever-skeptical Paladins discover a sinister plot (be it against the party or the people at large) and try to convince the ones she has charmed of it. If it's about the party have it only target the Paladins, and have their removal be as justified as her initial plot (i.e. the Paladins don't have the flexibility to do what needs to be done to bring about the perfect society; their Code of Conduct is an impediment to societal progress, etc., etc.) and have the succubus walk in on the party when the Paladins are trying to convince the others about it, and give her reasoning and offer the other party members the chance to really help society, by simply banishing the Paladins (of course she'll really kill them, but she'll say banishing here). Even though this is a classic Hitler argument, don't use any of those buzzwords like 'final solution' or anything, so the other party members don't suspect such, but let them evaluate it at face value; are they more loyal to their friends, or this incredibly convincing succubus with what appears to be a just, if a little extreme, cause? At that point it's even more interesting.

The most important thing, though, is to make the succubus truly evil at some point. She is willing and planning on betraying the entire party at some point, because no absolute ruler could tolerate having that kind of a threat to her rule hanging around. Also, she needs to manifest some kind of prejudice, possibly favoring one race over others, leading to Holocaust-like "purifications," or something like that, but justify it well. Lead the players who have begun to slip down the slope until they realize they're either agreeing with genocide or slavery or something, or they snap out of it and kill the BBEG.

[SleepyShadow]

Excellent advice everyone! I knew the Playgrounders would come through in the clutch

Yes, Valenessa will betray the party, but not likely until they oust Azalin from his throne. It would not make much sense to turn on them when they are currently her most powerful allies.

As for her prejudice, Valenessa already hates the followers of Ezra. At one point earlier in the campaign, the party had actually saved her from being killed by some priests of Ezra (They did not know it at the time, but they figured it out as soon as they saw her). Valenessa also hates them for the fact that their Lawful Evil sect is a pale parody of Hextor, her own religion. She wants to get rid of that religion entirely, and likely make Hextor the state religion if/when she takes over Darkon. I'm confident that will not sit well with the single-class paladin, as he is also a follower of Ezra.

[Choco]

I would do what you are already doing and just let them run with it. As you said paladins work a bit differently in Ravenloft, but on the other hand I am kinda biased because I always overlook the "can't associate with evil" part of the code as long as that association is for a good cause.

If you run with it, and the players try to redeem the evildoer, you could have the succubus pretend to renounce her evil ways in a believable way. Then, once her plan have been fulfilled, she can betray the party, assuming that the heroes haven't already figured her out and turned on her first. This way, the paladins don't have to fall, since they've been duped into working for the succubus, and you can still use the succubus as the BBEG.

Heh, that reminds me of when I had a villain do that. He pretended to be redeemed, but he never really betrayed the party. After a while he realized that the party were powerful enough to take out any evil thing that threatens him, so for his own selfish benefit he stayed "good." He basically did the opportunistic thing and was good because it served him the best, and he rode the PC's successes a lot higher then he otherwise would have gone.

[Honest Tiefling]

Never played Ravenloft, so I am not sure how paladins are supposed to act in that setting.

Do the players know she is a Hextorian? If she decides that the party are excellent temporary minions, perhaps she has found a fake ring to reverse alignment. It seems like a normal one at first glance.

Depending on how the Ezra thing worked out, she could even say that she was attempting to join their religion and be on the side of law and good, but that their prejudice against her for being a demon caused them to attack her. She forgives them of course, because she knows demons have done horrible things, but she still wants to learn about Ezra. In fact, would the paladin mind telling her more about his religion...?

She might even speak of a ritual to permanently make her LG. Which is really just the ritual to make her into a Lilutu, to get around that pesk detect alignment business, if the spell works in Ravenloft.

[Friv]

I'm going to provide an alternate opinion. If the succubus is a control freak, and the party is working for her, why in the names of all the Hells would she betray them? She'd be far better off working directly on corruption, and seeing if she can't persuade the paladins into Falling and becoming blackguards by convincing them that their ideologies aren't flexible. Nothing that she has to push too hard on, but if she can get the party to be loyal members of her regime, she is way better off than if not.

And random prejudice to establish Evil is about the worst thing you can do, if it's not dramatically in character. Not every Lawful Evil character needs to be a freaking Nazi, and that's liable to convince the players that she's a caricature, not a developed character. It seems much better for her to just have plans that gradually involve more sacrificing of minions for 'necessity', and more vengeance on those who betray or try to harm her, and more convincing the players that this is okay by having it working until a moment comes when the party either has to break it off or accept that they're on the same side as her, and that side is not the good guys.

[HappyBlanket]

Not sure if this was suggested already or not:

So, the PCs are helping an Evil character impose an Evil regime? But, in the process of doing so, they are overthrowing a different Evil character, who is even worse than Valenessa?

Introduce this as their third, maybe fourth mission from their new leader. After they've already completed a few tasks in her name:

In one of Azalin Rex's many dominated cities, a rebel group has begun to rise for the cause of removing Evil and tyranny from their home. The group, though not particularly powerful, has made great progress; after all, Azalin's poor management has resulted in an equally poor grasp over his territories. In any case, Valenessa sees this as her opportunity. She instructs the PCs to A) travel to the city, B) remove Azalin's remaining stragglers, and C) eliminate any possibility for future uprisings.

Boom. Ultimatum.

[SleepyShadow]

In one of Azalin Rex's many dominated cities, a rebel group has begun to rise for the cause of removing Evil and tyranny from their home. The group, though not particularly powerful, has made great progress; after all, Azalin's poor management has resulted in an equally poor grasp over his territories. In any case, Valenessa sees this as her opportunity. She instructs the PCs to A) travel to the city, B) remove Azalin's remaining stragglers, and C) eliminate any possibility for future uprisings.

Boom. Ultimatum.

I like this idea a lot. It would also be a good excuse for the party to explore the western part of Darkon. They started in Barovia, moved into Nova Vasa, completed the Shadow Rift adventure in Tepest, and have thoroughly scoured the eastern coast of Darkon. They just won't budge from there anymore!

I definitely like this idea. I'm totally going to use it if it's cool with you.

[HappyBlanket]

I like this idea a lot. It would also be a good excuse for the party to explore the western part of Darkon. They started in Barovia, moved into Nova Vasa, completed the Shadow Rift adventure in Tepest, and have thoroughly scoured the eastern coast of Darkon. They just won't budge from there anymore!

I definitely like this idea. I'm totally going to use it if it's cool with you.

I believe that was what I wanted

While I'm spitting out ideas: include the additional instructions of D) safely escorting one of Valenessa's generals to the city, and E) putting him in a position of power until reinforcements arrive, at which point the city will be near impossible to retake.

This will either drive home the extent to which the PCs are doing evil (which they may or may not be okay with), or give them the chance to have a boss fight. Either way, it draws the line between good and evil just a bit more.

[Garwain]

Let your villain kill some babies "because their suffering is unnecessary". Or give her a wand that can be charged when she sticks it into an infant's fontanel. That should be disturbing enough to wake them up.

[Saintheart]

Try to split the party.

Well, the title of the thread is "A Little Campaign Advice Please" *b-boom tsss*

[SleepyShadow]

Let your villain kill some babies "because their suffering is unnecessary". Or give her a wand that can be charged when she sticks it into an infant's fontanel. That should be disturbing enough to wake them up.

That's not exactly something Valenessa would do. Not because she's opposed to killing babies, but because she is a long-term thinker. Why kill babies when they are potential soldiers for the army of New Darkon?

While I'm spitting out ideas: include the additional instructions of D) safely escorting one of Valenessa's generals to the city, and E) putting him in a position of power until reinforcements arrive, at which point the city will be near impossible to retake.

They are already working toward something like that, actually. The party is trying to take down the head of a warrior's guild and replace him with Celeste, a fallen Astral Deva (Both Valenessa and Celeste have been advancing using Savage Species so I could involve them in the plot sooner). Of course, what Valenessa "forgot" to tell the PCs is that the head of the warrior's guild is a paladin of Ezra ...