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    Default The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    The Judge

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    "It is a dark day when men fight like dogs over a scrap of meat. Come! Let us battle with honor!"- Judge Oswor, starting an engagement.

    ____________________________

    A student of ancient law, a Judge has learned how to convince the universe to impose his restrictions on combat.

    Most Judges belong to an organization called the Lawbringers, who impose their chosen laws, however capricious they may seem, upon all battles fought in the kingdom they make their home in. The members of this group are a welcome sight, as they cut down the chances of warriors actually dying in combat that they declare to be an Engagement.

    Becoming a Judge
    The easiest route to Judge is through the Crusader class, though Swordsages are able to join this class with enough effort.


    Prerequisites

    Alignment: Any Lawful.
    Feats: Iron Will
    Skills: Sense Motive 8 ranks, Spot 4 ranks, Listen 4 ranks
    Maneuvers: At least one maneuver from each of the Stone Dragon, Devoted Spirit, and Quicksilver Aegis disciplines, along with two more from any of the three, at least one of which must be 5th level.
    Languages: Must speak at least five languages, one of which must be common



    Skills
    The Judge’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Ride (Dex), Speak Language, and Sense Motive (Wis)

    Skill Points
    4+ Int Modifier

    Level BAB Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Maneuvers Known Maneuvers Readied Stances Known
    1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Serene Judgement 1 0 0
    2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Engagement 1/day, Law 0 0 0
    3 +2 +3 +1 +3 1 1 0
    4 +3 +4 +1 +4 Engagement 2/day, Law 0 0 0
    5 +3 +4 +1 +4 Bind 1 0 1
    6 +4 +5 +2 +5 Engagement 3/day, Law 0 1 0
    7 +5 +5 +2 +5 Advanced Law 1 0 0
    8 +6 +6 +2 +6 Engagement 4/day, Law 0 0 0
    9 +6 +6 +3 +6 Red Card 1 1 0
    10 +7 +7 +3 +7 Engagement 5/day, Law, Advanced Law 0 1 1

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Judges gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

    Maneuvers: At each odd-numbered level, you learn a new maneuver known from the Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, or Quicksilver Aegis disciplines. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. You add your full Judg levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known. At 3rd, 6th, 9th, and 10th levels, you gain an additional maneuver readied per day.

    Stances Known: At 5th and 10th levels, you learn a new martial stance from the Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, or Quicksilver Aegis discipline. You must meet a stance’s prerequisite to learn it.

    Serene Judgement: A Judge has an almost supernatural sense for danger, and can avoid blows that would injure most other men. He adds his wisdom modifier as a bonus to AC and all Reflex Saves. This bonus to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the Judge is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless and when he is wearing heavy armor.

    Engagement (Su): At 2nd level, a judge has been fully initiated in the skills of the class. Once per day per two Judge levels, he may declare an encounter to be an Engagement. While in an Engagement, all damage dealt to anyone involved in the encounter is treated as nonlethal damage. Creatures normally immune to nonlethal damage take damage normally. Furthermore, a Judge can select a Law he knows to be in effect for the duration of the Engagement. If a creature succeeds on a Will save with a DC of 15+1/2th Judge's IL+ Judge's Wisdom modifier, it may ignore the restriction to dealing nonlethal damage. The Judge himself must abide by the rules of the Engagement, or the effect will end. The terms of an Engagement are telepathically broadcast to all creatures involved in it when it is declared.

    Law (Su): At 2nd level, and every even level thereafter, a Judge learns a Law that they can enforce during an Engagement. Creatures violating the law within the Engagement take a penalty on all attack and damage rolls and all skill checks equal to the Judge's Wisdom modifier, and takes a penalty to caster/manifester/intiator level equal to the Judge's Wisdom modifier. While striken with the penalty to effective CL/ML/IL, creatures are unable to use abilities of which the levels are greater than 1/2th of their caster level (eg: Judge Oswor is in an Engagement, fighting a level 16 Wizard. The wizard violates the "No Fire" law set down by Oswor at the beginning of the battle, and fails his Will save to resist the penalty. Oswor has a Wisdom score of 18, and so the wizard takes a -4 penalty to CL. This means that he may not cast any spells of higher than 6th level for the rest of the Engagement.). This penalty is negated by a successful Will save (DC 10+1/2th Judge's IL+ Judge's Wisdom modifier).

    The following laws may be selected by any Judge.

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    No (Piercing/Bludgeoning/Slashing)- upon selecting this law, a Jude chooses one of the listed damage types. While this law is in effect, no creature may deal damage of that type in the Engagement.

    No (Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire/Sonic)- upon selecting this law, a Jude chooses one of the listed energy types. While this law is in effect, no creature may deal damage of that type in the Engagement.

    No (Martial Discipline)- upon selecting this law, a Jude chooses one martial discipline. While this law is in effect, no creature may use a maneuver of this discipline in the engagement, nor may they be in a stance of the discipline.

    No Enchantment- while this law is in effect, creatures are not allowed to cast spells of the enchantment school, uses SLAs of the enchantment school, or activate items of the enchantment school. This also applies to any analogues of the Enchantment school, such as the Telepathy discipline of powers.

    No Transmutation- while this law is in effect, creatures are not allowed to cast spells of the transmutation school, uses SLAs of the transmutation school, or activate items of the transmutation school. This also applies to any analogues of the Transmutation school, such as the Psychometabolism discipline of powers.

    No Summoning- while this law is in effect, creatures are not allowed to cast spells of the summoning sub-school, uses SLAs of the summoning sub-school, or activate items that replicate spells of the summoning sub-school. Any creatures summoned while this law is in effect take the penalties associated with violating the terms of Engagement, with no save.


    Bind (Su): At 5th level, a Judge can bind an creature who has violated the Law set upon the Engagement. This may be used once per encounter, and is treated like the Hold Monster spell, with a save DC of 10+1/2th Judge's IL+ Judge's Wisdom modifier, and a duration of "Encounter". A Judge does not suffer the penalties for using this ability in combat if the Law is "No Enchantment".

    Advanced Law (Su): At 7th and 10th level, a Judge learns one Advanced Law from the following list. Advanced Laws may be put into effect instead of a normal Law when an Engagement is declared. Violating an advanced law institues a penalty to the Save DCs of abilities used by the violator equal to the Judge's Wisdom modifier. The Judge must still abide by these laws while they are in effect.

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    No Arcane- No creature may cast Arcane spells for the duration of the Engagement.

    No Divine- No creature may cast Divine spells for the duration of the Engagement.

    No Psionics- No creature may manifest powers or use Psi-like abilities for the duration of the Engagement.

    No Maneuvers- No creature may initiate maneuvers or gain the benefit of a stance for the duration of the Engagement.

    No Spell Like Abilities- No creature may use SLAs for the duration of the Engagement.


    Red Card (Su): At 9th level, a Judge is high enough on the hierarchy to request the temporary storage of a Law violator. Once per day, you may issue a Red Card to any violator of the current Engagement's Law, and banish them to an extradimensional prison until the end of the encounter, at which point they return to the point they were at when you used this ability. If they managed to escape the prison (such as due to using Plane Shift or a similar ability), they do not return to the point they were banished from. A creature may make a Will save with a DC of 10+1/2th Judge's IL+ Judge's Wisdom modifier to resist this effect.




    __________________________________

    Yeah. Inspired by the Judges of FFTA.

    Any comments?
    Last edited by The-Mage-King; 2014-04-05 at 12:03 PM.
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    I approve. FFTA happens to be one of my all time favorite games.

    I question the alignment restriction. This seems like a very obviously Lawful only kind of class, more so than just non-Chaotic. Especially since one of their disciplines focuses on little more than being Lawful.

    Second, I thought advancement among Prestige Classes to be that of their previous classes? Such as spellcasting PrCs getting "+1 Level of Spellcasting" rather than simply getting more spells per day and spells known. It seems like this should be "+1 Level of Initiator". In any case, the table isn't set up correctly, I believe. The numbers in the column should represent the total number of maneuvers known/readied/stances known, rather than what the Judgemaster learns at each level.

    Red Card is missing from the table.

    Also, have you considered Yellow Card and Judge Points? There are a few levels where the Judgemaster isn't getting any other special abilities (although, in each of these cases, save levels 5 and 9, he is also getting more maneuvers and such). Another ability could be Yellow Clip, which can remove the penalties a target has accrued through breaking the law.
    Last edited by bryn0528; 2011-07-15 at 11:54 PM.

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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Iron Will kind of works for the prerequisite if you turn it over in your heads
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Not sure about the prerequisites, but note that three requiring maneuvers from three different specific disciplines may be a bit restrictive, especially with the other requirements.
    My homebrew:

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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    You'd think that a Judge would have to be Lawful, not just Non-chaotic. Besides that, it looks good.
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    You'd think that a Judge would have to be Lawful, not just Non-chaotic. Besides that, it looks good.
    Quote Originally Posted by bryn0528 View Post
    I approve. FFTA happens to be one of my all time favorite games.

    I question the alignment restriction. This seems like a very obviously Lawful only kind of class, more so than just non-Chaotic. Especially since one of their disciplines focuses on little more than being Lawful.
    Yeah. I see what you mean... Fixing.

    Second, I thought advancement among Prestige Classes to be that of their previous classes? Such as spellcasting PrCs getting "+1 Level of Spellcasting" rather than simply getting more spells per day and spells known. It seems like this should be "+1 Level of Initiator". In any case, the table isn't set up correctly, I believe. The numbers in the column should represent the total number of maneuvers known/readied/stances known, rather than what the Judgemaster learns at each level.
    For ToB PrCs, maneuvers gained from them are kept seperately, due to the fact that non-initiators can take levels in them with a little effort. A fighter, for instance, can get to this

    Red Card is missing from the table.

    Also, have you considered Yellow Card and Judge Points? There are a few levels where the Judgemaster isn't getting any other special abilities (although, in each of these cases, save levels 5 and 9, he is also getting more maneuvers and such). Another ability could be Yellow Clip, which can remove the penalties a target has accrued through breaking the law.
    I considered Yellow Card, but I was unable to think of something suitable for that. Maybe a penalty on saves? As for the Judge Points and Yellow Clip, I'd rather not use them. Judge Points just... don't seem like a good idea here, and Yellow Clip was only available to the Judgemaster, not just any Judges.

    Quote Originally Posted by al'raith View Post
    Iron Will kind of works for the prerequisite if you turn it over in your heads
    Hm... That works. I'll add that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Not sure about the prerequisites, but note that three requiring maneuvers from three different specific disciplines may be a bit restrictive, especially with the other requirements.
    Well, I was wanting to ensure people entering this class would be Crusaders, unless they put an ungodly amount of work into meeting that prereq. You know?
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Any other comments/concerns?
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    um, I just read it, and you're requiring the pseudo monk ac class feature to deactivate with heavy armor; judges wear nothing but heavy armor right? The most ridiculously ornate heavy armor ever too, that armor must inflict penalties beyond plate just because of all the fiddly bits, with a bonus to intimidate and a penalty to all saves against his judge abilities.

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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    The penalty from violating a Law should not just give a penalty to attack and damage and skill checks, since optimized casters don't use those at all really (aside from occassionally Spellcraft and Concentration). How about it also disabling them from casting spells of up to level [half Wis mod, rounded down]?
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by druidor View Post
    um, I just read it, and you're requiring the pseudo monk ac class feature to deactivate with heavy armor; judges wear nothing but heavy armor right? The most ridiculously ornate heavy armor ever too, that armor must inflict penalties beyond plate just because of all the fiddly bits, with a bonus to intimidate and a penalty to all saves against his judge abilities.
    Actually, working off of Dissidia, Gabranth probably wearing Mithral full plate or a normal breastplate, given his mobility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    The penalty from violating a Law should not just give a penalty to attack and damage and skill checks, since optimized casters don't use those at all really (aside from occassionally Spellcraft and Concentration). How about it also disabling them from casting spells of up to level [half Wis mod, rounded down]?
    Seems good. I was also thinking of adding a penalty on saves somewhere...
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    I like it, but it does feel like it needs a couple more abilities. The laws are both annoyingly specific and broad, but that's basically how it is in the game from what I understand (I read a let's play). The level restriction for violators is just wrong though. Why does it become less restrictive if the judge is more powerful (higher wisdom modifier)? I'm also kind of amused by how an attack based creature could just power through the penalty, while a caster that breaks a law is completely unable to cast anything higher than maybe 1st-3rd level.

    I don't see a problem with adding judgemaster abilities, as long as they're at the end of the class. That's what capstones are for after all. You could probably have some top-tier laws that you can't take until after 5th class level or something. Since it's abilities are passive and the enemies know exactly what to do to avoid them, they really need to reach a point where they can't be avoided, otherwise your class feature ends up doing nothing on it's own (though I suppose if you want it to be used as part of a group then the group could build around all sharing a certain weakness that the judge covers with a law). If you start out banning energy types and broad schools, you should end up able to ban whole categories like divine or arcane magic (though the penalty in that case should be something like caster level and DCs rather than spell level restriction).
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I like it, but it does feel like it needs a couple more abilities. The laws are both annoyingly specific and broad, but that's basically how it is in the game from what I understand (I read a let's play). The level restriction for violators is just wrong though. Why does it become less restrictive if the judge is more powerful (higher wisdom modifier)? I'm also kind of amused by how an attack based creature could just power through the penalty, while a caster that breaks a law is completely unable to cast anything higher than maybe 1st-3rd level.
    Wait, what? It becomes less restrictive at higher levels?

    Oh. You mean why Engagement has a DC based at 15 and other abilities at 10? That's because I want the most basic ability to be the hardest to resist.

    I don't see a problem with adding judgemaster abilities, as long as they're at the end of the class. That's what capstones are for after all. You could probably have some top-tier laws that you can't take until after 5th class level or something. Since it's abilities are passive and the enemies know exactly what to do to avoid them, they really need to reach a point where they can't be avoided, otherwise your class feature ends up doing nothing on it's own (though I suppose if you want it to be used as part of a group then the group could build around all sharing a certain weakness that the judge covers with a law). If you start out banning energy types and broad schools, you should end up able to ban whole categories like divine or arcane magic (though the penalty in that case should be something like caster level and DCs rather than spell level restriction).
    Hm... Those are interesting ideas... I think I'll work on some additions to the available Laws...
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Mage-King View Post
    Seems good. I was also thinking of adding a penalty on saves somewhere...
    I think that would be overdoing it, as you would be penalizing prettymuch all d20 rolls and then some. Plus, with attack/damage/skills/spell restriction you limit their offensive capabilities, but with saves you are going for defensive.


    Also, I think it is perfectly fine to have Engagement's DC be higher as it is needed to use Laws (and for a Law a character might have to save several times each time he violates it). However, there is one problem with it: creatures that are immune to nonlethal damage. Put an undead with incredible Wis in a troop with some Judge levels and bam, they no longer take damage. Heck, they'd be immune to disintegrate and some other undead-killing spells! Maybe it might be better to have it that during an Engagement, those active in the Engagement cannot die and become immune to damage at -1 and cannot drop below -1 (and of course are instantly stabilized). Creatures without a Con score would then have a problem though, but I see that as less of a problem than them being immune to damage.
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Mage-King View Post
    A Judge must clearly announce the terms of the Engagement in all languages he speaks when he declares the encounter to be one.
    I understand where you're going with this bit. But, something like Telepathy is a fairly low level thing to get. Why not have an Engagement announce, telepathically, in whatever means a creature needs to understand, the rules and laws present? Or maybe have a class feature that gives them a permanent Tongues, or something.

    Not because I'm worried there will be player chicanery. But because Crusaders typically have 10ish intelligence, so it's unlikely anyone who doesn't speak Common is going to understand, and it just seems appropriate.

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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    I went to quote the problem and realized I was reading it wrong. I assumed that it would prohibit spells of X level and higher, because limiting someone to their lowest spells is what I would expect when you're trying to cut someone down to size. Apparently it actually stops them from using their lower level spells, with higher wisdom modifiers blocking higher spells. So it does get more powerful with the judge, but. . . it's pretty crappy. Sure you can slap the banhammer on lower level casters, but you're just encouraging anyone that's worth messing with to go all-out with their highest level spells. It's like telling a charger that he is now only allowed to charge. I think the best parallel to attack penalties would be a combination caster level and spell DC penalty.
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I think the best parallel to attack penalties would be a combination caster level and spell DC penalty.
    There is just one problem with that: no-save spells that aren't dependant on caster level.

    See, if spellcasting was structured the same way as manifesting, then lowering caster level would be the perfect way to go, because then the caster couldn't cast spells of levels higher than half their caster level. Thing is, it isn't structured that way.

    Making it say that caster level is lowered by the Judge's Wis mod and that they can no longer cast spells of levels higher than half their caster level would fix that though, and penalize high-level casters in the same manner as low-level casters (taking away their highest level spells).
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I think that would be overdoing it, as you would be penalizing prettymuch all d20 rolls and then some. Plus, with attack/damage/skills/spell restriction you limit their offensive capabilities, but with saves you are going for defensive.
    Hm... Yeah, I see what you mean. No Save penalty.

    However, there is one problem with it: creatures that are immune to nonlethal damage. Put an undead with incredible Wis in a troop with some Judge levels and bam, they no longer take damage. Heck, they'd be immune to disintegrate and some other undead-killing spells! Maybe it might be better to have it that during an Engagement, those active in the Engagement cannot die and become immune to damage at -1 and cannot drop below -1 (and of course are instantly stabilized). Creatures without a Con score would then have a problem though, but I see that as less of a problem than them being immune to damage.
    Wrong! I saw that abuse early on (during the ten minutes I wrote the basic framework up in), and nipped that in the bud. Does
    Creatures normally immune to nonlethal damage take damage normally.
    not solve that problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    I understand where you're going with this bit. But, something like Telepathy is a fairly low level thing to get. Why not have an Engagement announce, telepathically, in whatever means a creature needs to understand, the rules and laws present? Or maybe have a class feature that gives them a permanent Tongues, or something.

    Not because I'm worried there will be player chicanery. But because Crusaders typically have 10ish intelligence, so it's unlikely anyone who doesn't speak Common is going to understand, and it just seems appropriate.
    ...Point. Maybe I'll tie the telepathic informing of all participants to the magic of the Laws, or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I went to quote the problem and realized I was reading it wrong. I assumed that it would prohibit spells of X level and higher, because limiting someone to their lowest spells is what I would expect when you're trying to cut someone down to size. Apparently it actually stops them from using their lower level spells, with higher wisdom modifiers blocking higher spells. So it does get more powerful with the judge, but. . . it's pretty crappy. Sure you can slap the banhammer on lower level casters, but you're just encouraging anyone that's worth messing with to go all-out with their highest level spells. It's like telling a charger that he is now only allowed to charge. I think the best parallel to attack penalties would be a combination caster level and spell DC penalty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    There is just one problem with that: no-save spells that aren't dependant on caster level.

    See, if spellcasting was structured the same way as manifesting, then lowering caster level would be the perfect way to go, because then the caster couldn't cast spells of levels higher than half their caster level. Thing is, it isn't structured that way.

    Making it say that caster level is lowered by the Judge's Wis mod and that they can no longer cast spells of levels higher than half their caster level would fix that though, and penalize high-level casters in the same manner as low-level casters (taking away their highest level spells).
    I like it. Consider that stolen.
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Made the changes I said I would, and added Advanced laws. Thoughts on the latter?
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    There is just one problem with that: no-save spells that aren't dependant on caster level.

    See, if spellcasting was structured the same way as manifesting, then lowering caster level would be the perfect way to go, because then the caster couldn't cast spells of levels higher than half their caster level. Thing is, it isn't structured that way.

    Making it say that caster level is lowered by the Judge's Wis mod and that they can no longer cast spells of levels higher than half their caster level would fix that though, and penalize high-level casters in the same manner as low-level casters (taking away their highest level spells).
    True, but say I compare those to combat shenanigans like trip? Trip takes a penalty on a touch attack and that's pretty much it. Grappling is affected but it's still very much either you have it or you don't, even with a penalty. I don't think bull rush (dungeoncrasher) is affected either. So sure, the caster has some spells that are unaffected, but so does the fighter have some maneuvers that are unaffected.

    If you want to take the second route, I'd use the old "can't cast spells of their highest level/X levels," if you want that to be the only cap. But for hitting them on all three fronts of CL, DC, and spell level access then it's probably better to go with the other method. Caster level decreases by X, and for every 2 lost your spell DCs are decreased by 1 and you lose access to your highest available level of spells. Then maybe through in a caveat for psionics where they just lose manifester level so they don't end up with double penalties. And throw the penalty on ability check as well while you're at it, so you can hose (or at least penalize) trip and dungeoncrasher.
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    Default Re: The Judgemaster would like to have a word... (3.5, PrC, ToB, PEACH)

    Alternatively, which might be the easiest solution (though less nerfy to casters) would be to inflict negative levels equal to the Judge's Wis mod, but that these negative levels can never kill the target and are lost at the end of the encounter.

    However, as is, I like the penalties and think they are simple enough and just work, nerfing everyone equally. (Sure, incarnum, binders and invokers don't suffer much depending on their choices, but a DM could add stuff for those, like losing one shaped soulmeld per 2 points of Judge Wis mod, penalty to save DCs of supernatural abilities, penalizing SLAs the same way as spells, etcetera.)
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