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2011-07-21, 07:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Actually, I've already included those classes in the Myth #1: Savage Species Will Save the Day! Section. The fifth post is going to be advice about shapeshifting (mostly emphasizing that hit dice aren't gained), as well as a few topics germane to monsters suggested by the community (for example, I might put the level draining hit dice trick there).
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2011-07-21, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Go Urpriest! Instead of staying up correcting someone who's wrong on the internet, I instead stayed up and watched someone else do the correcting
I have minor disagreements with two things: I could swear I've read an official ruling that says you can in fact counterspell with spell-like abilities (though it may have been that you could only counterspell that specific ability with itself), and I feel that when you say that the level adjustment is what pays for the features of your racial hit dice, you should also mention that it pays for your cool monster abilities and large stat bonuses. It should be fairly obvious, but as they say on the first page: this guide assumes nothing.
(And if these have already been addressed, well mnyeh. It's 7am and I can't be arsed to read the whole thread, I need to sleep)
Edit: oh hey, mention of shapeshifting secition. I assume you will address how the spells refer to special attacks and special abilities separately? And of course the differences between standard errata'd polymorph, the new subschool spells, and the poser spells like Displacer Form that give a set of adjustments and a cosmetic change. Might be worth linking another guide for all that. If you haven't done so when I check back in then I'll try and dig it out of my bookmarks.Last edited by Fizban; 2011-07-21 at 09:00 AM.
Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2011-07-21, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
For that first, the SRD is very explicit:
Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2011-07-21, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
An addendum to what Urpriest said, in that Dispel Magic and spells derived from it have a specific Counterspell function, which in this case is a Specific rule that overrides the General rule. There was a thread about it that talked about this a couple weeks ago discussing that point at length and I'm fairly sure that was the general consensus, given the Warlock Invocations that mimic Dispel Magic seem to have been assumed to work that way.
Also, I must say I approve for having something that's eminently clear where many of the MMs and other monster sources are fairly not so much. Bravo, sir, bravo!Last edited by Cieyrin; 2011-07-21 at 08:18 PM.
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2011-07-22, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
do note, (cohort) is actually meaningless -- it says that the monster in question is suited to be a cohort, not unsuited to being a player character, mostly because of size and lack of opposable thumbs, iirc. nothing prevents playing them, although it might be somewhat difficult.
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2011-07-22, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
There may be no explicit rule, but every section that describes what that annotation means specifies that creatures with it are normally not suitable as player characters.
On that note, Handbook Complete! I'll be looking through the suggestions already on this thread to see what I've missed. Feel free to suggest and critique, especially in terms of material for the Transforming and Rolling Out section.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2011-07-22, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
*glee*
I do have a question on templates though, as you say that total HD is used for determining abilities granted for those templates that do such. My question is if this only applies when you get the template or whether you gain new features from the template as you advance in HD?
Take Feral for example. When a character hits the next break point, does it automatically get Pounce?
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2011-07-22, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-07-22, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
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2011-07-22, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Well done, Urpriest. Thanks for mentioning my guide in your guide.
I have a few advanced statblocks I've made, if you are interested. I have a CR6 huge Gelatinous Cube and a couple of CR2 advanced Spellwarped Pseudonatural Bombardeer Beetles. I'm working on a few others, I can post at a later point.
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2011-07-22, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-07-22, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
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2011-07-22, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2011-07-22, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Quote on the not gaining ability score increases? Similarly for the not using the size table for the stat bonuses. (keep in mind that enlarge person is a specific trumping general and is actually a crappy way to gain size)
You should explain both my ECL variant and my '-- templates for PCs only' discussion for why monsters should never be given PC class levels by the DM.
All in all a nice nooby-friendly guide even if a lot of exceptions are not m
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2011-07-22, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
For size, the Adding a Template Step By Step section (unfortunately appears to be absent from the SRD) says that only natural armor and basic size bonuses are automatic, and that a template will say whether or not you apply size modifiers, as they may be factored in to the ability scores already.
For ability scores, Link. In particular,
Ability Score Improvement
Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2011-07-22, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
J E L L O! ITS ALIVE!
Advanced Gelatinous Cube
Size: Huge
HD: 16d10+144 (232 hp)
Initiative: -5
Speed: 15 ft
AC: 1, Touch 1, Flat 1)
BAB/Grab: +12/+20
Attack: Slam +10 (1d6+1d6 Acid)
Full Attack: Slam +10 (1d6+1d6 Acid)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Acid, Engulf, Paralysis
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60’, Immune to Electricity, Ooze Traits, Transparent
Saves: F+13 R+0 W+0
Abilities: Str 10 Dex - Con 29 Int - Wis 1 Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
CR: 6
Acid (Ex)
A gelatinous cube’s acid does not harm metal or stone.
Engulf (Ex)
Although it moves slowly, a gelatinous cube can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The gelatinous cube merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the cube, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 19 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the cube moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the cube’s paralysis and acid, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.
Paralysis (Ex)
A gelatinous cube secretes an anesthetizing slime. A target hit by a cube’s melee or engulf attack must succeed on a DC 27 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds. The cube can automatically engulf a paralyzed opponent. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Transparent (Ex)
Gelatinous cubes are hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice a cube and walk into it are automatically engulfed.
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2011-07-23, 05:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
One thing of note for shapeshifting magic, you do not gain the creature feat and a fair number of monster (notably animal) have the improved natural attack feat so you need to remove it's benefit to obtain the damage dealt by the natural weapon you gain this way. This apply to other feat as well, improved critical come to mind.
Latest homebrew: The Avatars of Magic, powerful monster each dedicated to ne school of magic.
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My character :
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Mirar, Bizarre human Focused Conjurer/Master specialist (summoning specialist)
Xilef, shifter Druid 8//Barbarian 5/Weretouched master 3
Other Character.
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2011-07-23, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
That's an important point. Though I'm not sure Improved Critical is usually factored in to the Attack: line.
@Keld: Could you provide some analysis about why this particular example of advancement is interesting/a brief explanation of what you did? If it's around for educational purposes it should be accompanied by some explanation.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2011-07-23, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
I've found an example of monster with improve critical, the elder earth elmental and the change is indicated in the stat block.
I can't think of any other feat that would directly modify a natural attack but perhaps there's more somewhere.
In any case I'm glad I could help, again great work.Latest homebrew: The Avatars of Magic, powerful monster each dedicated to ne school of magic.
My homebrewer's Extended Signature
My character :
Spoiler
Mirar, Bizarre human Focused Conjurer/Master specialist (summoning specialist)
Xilef, shifter Druid 8//Barbarian 5/Weretouched master 3
Other Character.
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2011-07-23, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
That 'Adding a Template Step By Step' section is actually MM1 291. It is poorly written, referencing things that do not exist the way they say they do even after three patches of errata. Good thing it doesn't overwrite or contradict the other rules.
For ability scores, the HD advancement part does give stat boosts. Also when reverse-engineering lower HD versions of races the built-in stat boosts from the RHD are taken into account.
About my idea that monsters should never be given PC class levels being an abomination unto everything this guide stands for I hope that your DMs throw my Codzilla build at you ;)
My balanced ECL variant (so you can actually play high ECL creatures) is here. I would put it in my sig but that has already been edited, etc enough that I'm not going to touch it lest the moLast edited by PlzBreakMyCmpAn; 2011-07-23 at 08:24 PM.
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2011-07-23, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
I believe you are referring to this article here.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a
More specifically, this clause here.
A spell-like ability cannot be used as a counterspell, and it is not subject to counterspells. A counterspell involves recognizing a spell as it is being cast, then quickly altering that same spell so as to create an opposite effect that cancels out the original spell. A spell-like ability is essentially hardwired into its user's psyche, and its power is released mentally. The process is sufficiently different from spellcasting so it that doesn't allow a foe to identify the spell-like ability, and a counterspell cannot interfere with the spell-like ability's magical energy as it can with a spell. As noted earlier, a spell-like ability is subject to dispelling (provided the spell it duplicates is subject to dispelling). When a spell-like ability can be dispelled (as most of them are) one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell. While spell-like abilities are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is casting a quick, targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell.My humble efforts at re-cr'ing MM2
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215727
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2011-07-23, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
That part of the Adding a Template section is indeed consistent with other rules, as far as I can see.
HD advancement does indeed give stat boosts. In fact, the guide's wording on the subject was thought to be ambiguous, as was discussed earlier in the thread. Do you still find the language unclear? I've tried to edit it to be abundantly clear that the original RHD do not give stat boosts, but later advancement of HD does. Is there a particular section you find poorly worded?
Edit: As to your ECL variant, there's some bad wording there (no race that I am aware of has spellcasting related to its racial hit dice, sans variants a level-drained Rakshasa still has its full Sorceror casting), but the basic rule is simple enough. Almost too simple...
Edit Edit: Is the HD in the formula intended to be total or racial? If the latter, you do realize your formula gives free templates for all, right? If the former, you're throwing off the entire experience chart.Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-07-23 at 09:09 PM.
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2011-07-23, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Could just link this thread and others like it.
I'd link this one too, but I'm biased.Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
d20r Compilation PDF - last updated 9.11.14
d20r: Spells (I-L) - d20r: Spells (H) - d20r: Spells (G) - d20r: Spells (F) - d20r: Spells (E) - d20r: Spells (D) - d20r: Wizard class
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2011-07-25, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Hm, I have one remaining question. Maybe I have missed it somewhere.
If a monster has a spell-like ability and that spells effect varies according to caster level (like the damage of a fireball), how is the monsters caster level determined?Last edited by Zombimode; 2011-07-25 at 07:33 AM.
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2011-07-25, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-07-25 at 07:58 AM.
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2011-07-25, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
in order:
"A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below." I swear I point this out in every 'size' thread. Though I'll admit once a GitP poster beat me to it.
"but they don't gain ability score increases every four levels like you do." They do but they don't gain it from their 'base' RHD twice, since it is already included in their statblock
Its racial. I had it all say RHD but people always asked, "I know what HD are but what is RHD?" I got sick of answering. You can see in the sixth and seventh rule where I got lazy. I'll at the 'R's for you below.
I can't find that wording but it does sound like my babble for common sense rule 1 :) I'll requote it so you see what I see. But I'll go ahead and clean it up again anyways:
Keep in mind that I am redefining what ECL is, so it in fact uses the experience table normal per the newly defined ECL. You just have extra HD or what not, like a party with a warforged bard who likes to keep his allies ready to fight even at night with his inspire couLast edited by PlzBreakMyCmpAn; 2011-07-26 at 07:32 PM.
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2011-07-25, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
There are two possible answers to this, the one I would deploy to the people this thread is targeted to, and the one I would deploy to Curmudgeon. You may choose:
1. That section refers to size increases gained from advancing hit dice, as the sentence before it shows.
2. "A size increase" increase is a nouning of a verb. Therefore it does not refer to the normal definition of the word (since it would be an improper usage if so), but rather a game term. The game term "size increase" is defined in the previous sentence as that which happens when a monster advances in hit dice.
Are you claiming they gain it from their 'base' RHD once? Since by your own admission it's already included in their statblock (and hence their racial bonuses, unless you have a source for Fax's rule), I don't see how this could ever come up. Or is this merely a technical point? If so I concede your point, but I believe that mentioning it would only add confusion.
Could you explain what you mean by Floor then? Normally Floor simply rounds down to the next lowest integer, do you intend to round to the next lowest natural number?Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2011-07-25, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Take a look back at my post. You were speedier than I realized. I was still making things pretty for you
Again in order. The size part discussion is sounding like semantics. 1) the previous sentence is a different paragraph or atleast has a break 2) dictionary.com lists 3 entries for increase as a noun. But really I'd say that my interpretation is better (since that's the argument) because A) it makes sense. Bigger things being stronger and tougher but less agile, B) it adds depth to the game C) it easily helps melees (although admittedly it can help cunning min-maxed casters) D) it makes the game make less sense when certain size-granting templates follow the above logic but others don't, ie. you are bigger now so you should therefore be stronger and tougher but less agile -- but only if you get bigger this way E) many templates mention the size table as if the player should already know to be using it: "a size increase also changes the following:" I know of no examples that do the opposite: aka 'this template is special in that it gives you the size modifiers too'
phew. I hope you appreciate the lengths here.
Yes I mentioned that many exceptions are not given in this thread. Reversing HD and subtracting stat bonus gains from RHD is the only time you'd need to worry about what's included in the statblock.
"Normally Floor simply rounds down to the next lowest integer" That would be how I am using it too. If you need some examples I can show you more than just this one that no one would ever play non-level drained without my balance ECL variant:
Bugbear (3RHD, 1LA): ECL = Floor[3/2 - 1] + (1) + (Class levels)
ECL = Floor[1.5 - 1] + 1 + Class levels
ECL = Floor[.5] + 1 + Class levels
ECL = (0) + (1) + (Class levels)
ECL = 1 + Class levels
this essentially means those 3RHD are 'free' but the LA still has to be bought off. Not bad for six stat point boosts. Almost enough to make you not sad you are an ugly bear goblLast edited by PlzBreakMyCmpAn; 2011-07-25 at 08:23 PM.
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2011-07-25, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
In reverse order, because it's late and I'm odd:
Ugly bear goblins are awesome and should never be sad.
However, here's the issue: say I have no RHD. Say I'm a Vampire. Your formula gives:
ECL = Floor[0-8] + (8) + (Class levels)
ECL = Floor[-8] + (8) + (Class levels)
ECL = (-8) + (8) +(Class levels)
ECL = (Class levels)
ECL = I am now a Vampire absolutely for free. Also, any other template.
Is that intentional?
Reversing HD...like with level drain? While I suppose that could happen, there's no way to figure out which abilities you added your boosts to. Much as I love technically impossible to apply rules, they don't fit the audience of this guide.
Examples and/or Counterexamples for size increasing templates are hard. MMII is a 3.0 source, and hence built under a somewhat different monster building regimen, but has Titanic give +36 Str to a toad, not the +70 that your method would indicate. I'm looking for a 3.5 example now.
Edit: Actually, aren't many of the Lycanthropes viable examples? Many change the creature's size from Medium to Large, and yet give only the ability increases mentioned in the template.
EditEdit: On the other hand, Half-Goristro seems to be a legitimate counterexample. On the other other hand, it explicitly states that all of the modifiers in that table are included. I feel like that guy from Fiddler on the Roof.
Basically: find me an example of a template that increases size and doesn't explicitly instruct the user to follow the table, yet includes that ability increase. If you're arguing that it should apply for things that aren't templates (spells etc.) then a single example of a statblock containing such will do. Otherwise I stand by my claim that it should be explicitly mentioned either way, defaulting to not applying.Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-07-25 at 09:06 PM.
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2011-07-25, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
floor(rhd/2-la)+la is, when dealing with real integers la, identical to floor(rhd/2). I do hope you have a real integer there.