LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[Serpentine]

I didn't watch it much, but what about Queer as Folk?

[Asta Kask]

I"m not sure if I'm happy for more characters, or happy for more characters that aren't lisping stereotypes.

As long as they're not depicted as evil, every character is a step in normalizing homosexuality. And mutatis mutandis for others in the spectrum.

[Gardener]

As long as they're not depicted as evil, every character is a step in normalizing homosexuality. And mutatis mutandis for others in the spectrum.

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think there's a lot more that can be done for the cause with a sympathetic, well-developed villain than a freakshow on the side of the good guys. Stereotyping, cliches and "shock value" all hinder the process of normalisation, even if the character in question isn't "evil".

[Serpentine]

That's my problem with the gay kid in Glee. That might be the way the actor really is, but as a character it's pretty damn stereotypical. I find his father a better figure for LGBT issues than the actual gay character...

[Al'izh'dheg]

That's my problem with the gay kid in Glee. That might be the way the actor really is, but as a character it's pretty damn stereotypical. I find his father a better figure for LGBT issues than the actual gay character...

I hadn't thought of it like this before, though now that you bring it up, I agree. However, I really like him as a character. He's so sweet and unapologetic about his sexuality. I like him and would want to be his friend irl. :)

[Lyesmith]

I'm gonna throw Sirens out there as having a good gay character.

I would probably make Kurt's life a living hell, in honesty. I hate him so, so much. He's one of the main reasons I try to avoid Glee as much as possible.

[Coidzor]

That's my problem with the gay kid in Glee. That might be the way the actor really is, but as a character it's pretty damn stereotypical. I find his father a better figure for LGBT issues than the actual gay character...

Well, that would be even more damning, as generally one is supposed to...ah...what's the word?...

Act.

[Lyesmith]

Well, that would be even more damning, as generally one is supposed to...ah...what's the word?...

Act.

Keanu Reaves disagrees.

"Woah."

[Asta Kask]

Willow... *sigh*

[Al'izh'dheg]

Guess I'm the only one who likes Kurt on any level. :) Of course I don't feel quite as odd about that as the other day when my guild in Rift was dogging on furries and I asked what the big deal was. :)

[Lix Lorn]

Guess I'm the only one who likes Kurt on any level. :) Of course I don't feel quite as odd about that as the other day when my guild in Rift was dogging on furries and I asked what the big deal was. :)

I like Kurt. Also furries.

I just like everything though, most of the time.

[Serpentine]

I just find it odd that he's praised for being such a "good gay character", when he's such a stereotype.

[Al'izh'dheg]

I just find it odd that he's praised for being such a "good gay character", when he's such a stereotype.

Not making a judgement on what a great gay character he is, nor how stereotypical he is (though I've seen far, far worse). I simply said I like him. :)

And my like, I mean like. Not like like. Not that there's something wrong with like liking him. Or not liking him. Or anything.

*slinks away before the hole gets dug any deeper*

[Kneenibble]

I haven't seen much of Glee, but aren't most or all of the characters stereotypes? Isn't that the point?

Queer as Folk, by the way -- North American version at least -- had three-dimensional complex characters and explored stereotypes consciously. Great show; even if its heavy focus on sexy sex did encourage this queer as an impressionable teenager towards body image issues and attempted promiscuity.

[Danne]

...if the only thing you could say about a character is some variation on "they're a white heterosexual cis male" then they're not a very interesting character, and the same goes if they're any combination of gay, trans, female, non-caucasian, or whatever else. It's only a start, of course.

I'm going to second this, because it's very well said. Any writer worth his/her/etc.'s salt has characters with flaws. A character might be too shy to speak to people she doesn't know, or consumed with anger about something in the past that he can't always make the right decision, or a spoiled brat... who also happens to be queer. (Heck, I've got a gay mage who's completely insane. He is so much fun to write.)

That said, I don't have a problem with making a point or whatever about the character being queer -- as long as it's the character's issues, not the creator's. A gay kid today who was raised with "gay is bad" as a mindset could have a difficult time accepting himself or getting his family to accept him, and this can be an interesting journey for the writer/artist/whatever to travel with him. Of course, if you're writing an epic fantasy quest in search of the Magical MacGuffin, having too much of the story dedicated to one of the characters being queer wouldn't work. Everything must be balanced.

(Anyway, I don't know much of Glee or Queer as Folk -- not really my cup of tea -- but y'all know I'm always up for book recs if you're looking for good LGBT characters to read about. )

[Elentari]

Ok, I realize this is coming kinda late to the whole shaving topic....

Spoiler

Show

I have really sensitive skin, and when I shave my legs, I have to be careful about razor burn and ingrown hairs. Usually, what I do is this: soaking my legs in a bath for at least 10 minutes, find some shaving cream for legs, and apply generously. Then, I shave with the hairs, then against the hairs to get all of them, then rinse off. After patting the legs dry, I apply a good moisturizing lotion.

The razors DO make a difference in what kind of shave you get. Some brands will shave much closer than other brands, and will therefore give you varying amounts of razor burn, etc. Try lots of different brands to find one that works for you, and get some specifically for legs, they're usually better in helping the user avoid cuts and nicks.

[Lissou]

I think... that while having all gay characters everywhere be a flamboyant stereotype is a very bad idea... on the other hand, because there ARE gay guys like that, I don't think it shouldn't be allowed. Or you'd end up doing the opposite, gay guys characters having to match none of the stereotypes, or something. Some of them can. It's just annoying when they all do, not on an individual level.

So if this specific one is otherwise a good character... Sure, why not? As long as the gay characters aren't all shown that way.

[Lyesmith]

So if this specific one is otherwise a good character... Sure, why not? As long as the gay characters aren't all shown that way.

But they are. In turn, people expect me to like musicals and vogue and such. Aaaargh.

[Anuan]

Apparently the dude that plays Glee is basically -exactly like that- in real life. I agree with Serps.

One gay character I like is one that was never explicitly outed as gay. An old British sitcom called Are You Being Served? took place in a clothes shop. The character was obviously gay and, whilst being to some degree a stereotype, (it was a sitcom from the seventies -Everybody- was a stereotype) he was a sympathetic, incredibly likable character, often the brains of the outfit, solving problems and such.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Ok, I realize this is coming kinda late to the whole shaving topic....

Spoiler

Show

I have really sensitive skin, and when I shave my legs, I have to be careful about razor burn and ingrown hairs. Usually, what I do is this: soaking my legs in a bath for at least 10 minutes, find some shaving cream for legs, and apply generously. Then, I shave with the hairs, then against the hairs to get all of them, then rinse off. After patting the legs dry, I apply a good moisturizing lotion.

The razors DO make a difference in what kind of shave you get. Some brands will shave much closer than other brands, and will therefore give you varying amounts of razor burn, etc. Try lots of different brands to find one that works for you, and get some specifically for legs, they're usually better in helping the user avoid cuts and nicks.

Thanks Elantari! :)

[unosarta]

One gay character I like is one that was never explicitly outed as gay. An old British sitcom called Are You Being Served? took place in a clothes shop. The character was obviously gay and, whilst being to some degree a stereotype, (it was a sitcom from the seventies -Everybody- was a stereotype) he was a sympathetic, incredibly likable character, often the brains of the outfit, solving problems and such.

That was a great a great show. And the best part was, it lasted for fricking ever (I just checked wikipedia, it ran for 10 series.) I had no idea about that. Anyway, Humphries was most definitely a stereotype, dude. Like, he played up his stereotype (not sure if Inman really is gay, but his character was very fabulous).

It's actually pretty funny, John Inman worked at a "Gentleman's Outfitter" before working on Are You Being Served.

And, yup, he was gay. He left all of his estate to one Ron Lynch, his partner.

[Anuan]

Yes, he was a stereotype, but as I mentioned they all were and he wasn't portrayed negatively. It came across less as "THIS MAN IS GAY. THIS IS HOW GAY PEOPLE ARE. CLASS THEM AWAY AS LESS HUMAN." and more "This man is gay, and also flamboyant," because as I said, he was often the most normal, intelligent and successful character in the episode, as well as one of the most likable.

And yes, it was a great show

[golentan]

Personally, I don't know if anyone else watched the Soap Opera spoof "Soap," but... Jodie? Billy Crystal's character. Was awesome. First openly gay character on american TV at least (and in fact the controversy nearly ended Crystal's career). Yeah, 70s, so all the stereotyping you'd expect, and they did some things which were just not cool (conflating some things and downplaying his orientation throughout much of the series). But at the same time they made it very clear that at least half the stereotyping was him being self aware of the expectations of those around him and playing them for irony. And some of his later arcs... they held him up as a good example of a loving father and turned ALL of the "gay people are dangerous to kids" stuff into not just lampooning material but an outright and unambiguous villain making it clear how ridiculous and hypocritical that sort of thinking can be.

[Heliomance]

But they are. In turn, people expect me to like musicals and vogue and such. Aaaargh.

But theatre is for everyone, not just gays!

[KenderWizard]

That's my problem with the gay kid in Glee. That might be the way the actor really is, but as a character it's pretty damn stereotypical. I find his father a better figure for LGBT issues than the actual gay character...

The father is the best character in the whole thing, though! Apparently the gay kid is basically a Mary Sue of the main writer's teenage self. Say what else you like, but that kid has an amazing singing voice. It's kind of nuts how much he sounds like a girl singing... Anyway, he's really talented.

But theatre is for everyone, not just gays!

+1!!

[Al'izh'dheg]

The father is the best character in the whole thing, though! Apparently the gay kid is basically a Mary Sue of the main writer's teenage self. Say what else you like, but that kid has an amazing singing voice. It's kind of nuts how much he sounds like a girl singing... Anyway, he's really talented.



+1!!

I concur! :)

[unosarta]

The father is the best character in the whole thing, though! Apparently the gay kid is basically a Mary Sue of the main writer's teenage self. Say what else you like, but that kid has an amazing singing voice. It's kind of nuts how much he sounds like a girl singing... Anyway, he's really talented.

My biggest problem with Glee has always been too much Drama and not enough singing. It's why I don't watch it at all, even though all of my friends do. The singing is fantastic when it happens, but the drama is just annoying for me. A couple of the episodes I have seen were interesting, but they were dealing with characters who were considered more side-plot, it seemed. That was frustrating.

[Yora]

I think... that while having all gay characters everywhere be a flamboyant stereotype is a very bad idea... on the other hand, because there ARE gay guys like that, I don't think it shouldn't be allowed. Or you'd end up doing the opposite, gay guys characters having to match none of the stereotypes, or something. Some of them can. It's just annoying when they all do, not on an individual level.

Pulling out the ban-hammer on stereotypes, especially when you're not one of the targeted people yourself, constantly reaches a point where it backfires. By fighting one stereotype, you are at the same time creating and reinforcing another opposing stereotype. Then people pick up that they are being fed another one-dimensional way of thinking and you end up with self created problems.

I think, as with so many thing, moderation is the key. If stereotypes show up, don't fight it, but encourage people to not just focus on a single portrayal, but diversify to more individual characterizations.
Same things goes for mental illnesses, nationality, or race, where you can see the same thing happen all the time.

[KenderWizard]

My biggest problem with Glee has always been too much Drama and not enough singing. It's why I don't watch it at all, even though all of my friends do. The singing is fantastic when it happens, but the drama is just annoying for me. A couple of the episodes I have seen were interesting, but they were dealing with characters who were considered more side-plot, it seemed. That was frustrating.

I know, right? The singing is brilliant! Also, Rachael gets all the attention all the time. Seriously, I think Mr Shuester has a serious problem with his brain. Every twenty minutes, he goes "Oh, hey, listen, it's really important that EVERYONE gets a turn and EACH PERSON gets a chance to shine, so -- " -- minor distraction -- " -- Rachael gets the solo! Actually, let's just have Rachael sing the whole song by herself. I mean, she has the perfect musical theatre / pop / overemotional voice, and this is a ... it's a rock song? ... ah, screw it, she can do it anyway!" Need a second female voice? Mercedes. Then Kurt. If there's lots of time, mayyybe Quinn gets a turn. Tina? Santana? Who are they? If I had to rank them according to how much I love their voices, I'd find it incredibly difficult, but Tina, Quinn and Santana would all come ahead of Rachael. Last I checked (well, I got frustrated and quit shortly into the second series), Santana had one joint song with Mercedes and a solo line in Bad Romance. That's less than Rachael gets PER EPISODE! ... I'm ranting, I'll stop.

No, wait, one more thing! I think they have this brain problem as a group, because we spent an entire episode setting up how Shiny Better Glee Club was just better in every way at singing, dancing, costumes, stagecraft, etc, except when the song was some kind of emotional funky song. So the way to beat them is to ... dress identically, like they do, and do a squeaky clean performance, like they do, only in an inferior way, because they're better. And sing Queen, instead of ******* Journey!

Really, I didn't think I was still this upset about this show... It was my favourite for one glorious springtime. Ah, love lost. Maybe they'll do DVD soundtracks...

Anyway, I despair of popular media getting decent LGBT+ characters any time soon, given it's still pretty hit and miss with female characters. If they can't manage a numerical majority that is literally impossible to avoid, the less visible deviations from the standard heteronormative cis white male 18 - 40 are going to be tricky.

[Al'izh'dheg]

*ranting*

Maybe they'll do DVD soundtracks...

They already have Glee soundtracks: http://www.amazon.com/Glee-The-Music...3715501&sr=8-3