LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[Coidzor]

And my like, I mean like. Not like like. Not that there's something wrong with like liking him. Or not liking him. Or anything.

Just use the L word. It's ok to say "lust" here.

So. I wonder.

Does anyone else find that despite being deeply unpleasant in the short term, stereotypical, but on the whole, non-hostile, portrayals of X characters actually produce more good in the long run due to the impetus and drive they give the writers and actors that are X to finally get it right (& as an added benefit, show up other, shoddier writers and actors)?

Apparently the gay kid is basically a Mary Sue of the main writer's teenage self.

Then he's a broken so many of the fundamental rules of being a writer I don't even know where to begin.

[Serpentine]

My biggest problem with Glee has always been too much Drama and not enough singing. It's why I don't watch it at all, even though all of my friends do. The singing is fantastic when it happens, but the drama is just annoying for me. A couple of the episodes I have seen were interesting, but they were dealing with characters who were considered more side-plot, it seemed. That was frustrating.

Actually, pretty much the only episodes I've seen of Glee were mostly about Kurt. I missed most of the first one, but it was about Kurt coming out to his father. Now, like I said, Kurt just seems too stereotypical for me to take serious as an "LGBT-representing character"*. But his father's speech... I can't remember much of it, but his speech was deeply touching and, I thought, gave such a great message to any parents who might be, although not outright homophobic, leery of having one of their own children come out as gay.
The other episode, the kid Kurt had a crush on was staying at his place, and he went full-blown creeper-stalker on him. I couldn't believe it, and I found myself wondering if he's autistic or something - how could he not see that everything he was doing was totally not to his friend's taste, and in fact was making him deeply, deeply uncomfortable. I was pretty disappointed when Kurt was made all-victim in that - sure, the other kid overreacted and said some hurtful stuff, but I can't really blame him for reacting at all. But, again, his father had a brilliant speech to give...


*To address some above issues: if they had at least one or two other gay characters that weren't limp-wristed and lisping, then I'd be much more okay with him, because that would be depicting the diversity of gay people, not just the one tired stereotype.

[Ashen Lilies]

I'm not a regular watcher of Glee, but there is another character, Blaine, who, from what I've seen, is a lot less stereotypical than Kurt, and is, in fact, awesome.
...
The fact that there are 7 commas in the above sentence worries me.
Have a duet.

[Danne]

Have a duet.

That's... really cute, actually.

[unosarta]

Blaine's actor, Darren Criss, is also straight. And awesome.

Case in point.

[Ashen Lilies]

My favorite song of the series thus far. It's one of the only Glee covers that I prefer over the 'original' version(s).

[Al'izh'dheg]

I like Kurt. Also furries.

I just like everything though, most of the time.

I've never met a furry before. I'm intrigued.

[Serpentine]

Anuan introduced we of the 'strayan meet-up to a furry comedian. Dunno his name so I can't tell you what to look for, but he was pretty entertaining.

[Al'izh'dheg]

It's a curiosity thing for me. Not in a "I want to explore it too" kind of way, but a true interest. The fact that everybody I've spoken to about it either says, "What's a furry?", "OMFG FURRIES ARE HORRIBLE CREATURES FROM THE DEPTHS OF THE ABYSS!! AIEEEEEEEEE!", or "Furries... is that those people from the infamous 'puppy pile' episode of CSI?"

Surely there's more to the fetish than that? Is it belittling to call it a fetish? I hope not as it isn't my intention.

[Serpentine]

I'm not very well informed on it, but I get the impression that it ranges from a hobby to a fetish to a subculture and/or lifestyle right through to something like species disphoria.

[Skeppio]

Furries? There's a bunch of groups and sub-groups. It's pretty confusing. My friend and a few of his friends are furries. Great bunch. My notion is that, at least in the ones I've met, it's people who see a bit of themselves in animals and have some sort of anthropomorphic visage they envision themselves as, a 'fursona' I think they nickname it.

Of course there's those who take it a step further and create costumes or 'fursuits' of said anthros. Kinda like cosplay, I guess.

And of course in every group, there's the lunatics, as seen in that stupid CSI episode. Problem is, like most subcultures, the media latches onto those lunatic examples and assumes that EVERY member of the group acts exactly like that.


Anyhoo, I hope that answers your queries. Apologies if I've gotten anything wrong or said anything offensive.

[Al'izh'dheg]

It does help, thank you. I'm still interested in meeting some folks of that subculture (so much better word than fetish, which has a bit of a stigma associated with it socially now). I'm sure it would be a fascinating discussion. :)

Then again, I find all of psychology fascinating. Not from a "I must study you like an insect" kind of way, but a "people in general, are fascinating (when they are not being absolutely horrible to themselves and (especially) each other)," kind of way.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't come across as me being a horrible little troll.

[Skeppio]

It does help, thank you. I'm still interested in meeting some folks of that subculture (so much better word than fetish, which has a bit of a stigma associated with it socially now). I'm sure it would be a fascinating discussion. :)

Then again, I find all of psychology fascinating. Not from a "I must study you like an insect" kind of way, but a "people in general, are fascinating (when they are not being absolutely horrible to themselves and (especially) each other)," kind of way.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't come across as me being a horrible little troll.

Not at all. It's pretty much how I felt when my friend first explained furries to me. "Interesting bunch, wonder what they do."
Hope you find some interesting chats.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Thanks. I'm not sure why I'm so apologetic today... more so than usual at least. I'm doing it at work too. I mean it's always better to be cautious and all, but... I'm just feeling rather insecure and jumpy. I'm just waiting for somebody to jump out at me and start screaming obsenities about what a terrible person I am.

Yes. I have issues. This is well established. :)

[Hawkflight]

Surely there's more to the fetish than that? Is it belittling to call it a fetish? I hope not as it isn't my intention.

I would say yes, I think. Fetish implies that it's a sexual thing, when really that's about as typical of furry culture as it is of LGBTA culture.

Skeppio said it best, so I'll leave it at that. Except to say that one could consider me a furry as my persona is a kitten (a tibbit in cat form for D&D), so if you have any further questions I may be able to answer them.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

Hiya! Masked Llama here, card-carrying furry...well, not exactly a card carrying furry, cuz I never got around to making business cards, but I am a furry. Thought I'd just kinda chime in here since I checked the thread of a whim yesterday and saw the furred folk getting a bit of attention. Please note, my opinions and views represent no one other than myself.

I've never met a furry before. I'm intrigued.

For the most part, we're rather mundane except for when we're at conventions or meet-ups. Just like most sub-cultures, really.

Anuan introduced we of the 'strayan meet-up to a furry comedian. Dunno his name so I can't tell you what to look for, but he was pretty entertaining.

Two, the Ranting Gryphon, is the fandom's most famous comedian, although I've also heard good things about Ifsa Cat. Just a word of warning, they can be a little vulgar at times and Two can be rather controversial.

It's a curiosity thing for me. Not in a "I want to explore it too" kind of way, but a true interest. The fact that everybody I've spoken to about it either says, "What's a furry?", "OMFG FURRIES ARE HORRIBLE CREATURES FROM THE DEPTHS OF THE ABYSS!! AIEEEEEEEEE!", or "Furries... is that those people from the infamous 'puppy pile' episode of CSI?"

Surely there's more to the fetish than that? Is it belittling to call it a fetish? I hope not as it isn't my intention.

I'm not very well informed on it, but I get the impression that it ranges from a hobby to a fetish to a subculture and/or lifestyle right through to something like species disphoria.

Serp summed it up pretty well. Lots of different beliefs and cultures all under one banner. I can elaborate if anyone wants.

To be honest, Al'izh'dheg, many would grimace to hear it called a fetish because that is a rather negative stigma that we're stuck with, although it does apply to some of us, although not as many as the media would like you to believe. Sub-culture tends to be a better umbrella term.

Furries? There's a bunch of groups and sub-groups. It's pretty confusing. My friend and a few of his friends are furries. Great bunch. My notion is that, at least in the ones I've met, it's people who see a bit of themselves in animals and have some sort of anthropomorphic visage they envision themselves as, a 'fursona' I think they nickname it.

Aye, fursona is the term. See also, a talking llama who used to be a magical steed in the courts of Camelot and always wears a mask. Also, thanks for the kind words.

Of course there's those who take it a step further and create costumes or 'fursuits' of said anthros. Kinda like cosplay, I guess.

Very much like cosplay, except usually instead of dressing up as characters that others have created, fursuiters cosplay as their own creations. Although that isn't always the case. I've seen some very well done My Little Pony fursuits at Anthrocon.

And of course in every group, there's the lunatics, as seen in that stupid CSI episode. Problem is, like most subcultures, the media latches onto those lunatic examples and assumes that EVERY member of the group acts exactly like that.

Aye, you won't see much coverage of "Large Purple Dog Pays Monthly Visit to Children's Hospital: cheers up sick kids."

Anyhoo, I hope that answers your queries. Apologies if I've gotten anything wrong or said anything offensive.

Again, I can't speak for anyone else in the fandom, Skeppio, but I appreciate the positive view you take to the fandom.

NOTE: Oh wow, look at all the replies since I started this post. Oh dang it, and I think everyone kinda explained it better than me. Wow, we even have another furry in Hawkflight. Hiya Hawkflight.

If anyone has any questions, you can feel free to ask me. I've also got pictures from various conventions that are kinda cool and really show the fun loving side of the fandom.

[Coidzor]

Anuan introduced we of the 'strayan meet-up to a furry comedian. Dunno his name so I can't tell you what to look for, but he was pretty entertaining.

Robin Williams?

I would say yes, I think. Fetish implies that it's a sexual thing, when really that's about as typical of furry culture as it is of LGBTA culture.

So... for the majority of them it defines their sexual identity?

[Hawkflight]

So... for the majority of them it defines their gender identity?

First off, fixed that for you.

And no, I meant more like saturation of a stereotype vs. those who are generally focused on in the media.

[DeadManSleeping]

A problem with the word "furry" is that it's not used consistently. I'll break down some of the uses out there (though I doubt I can furnish a truly extensive list).

-People who find anthropomorphic forms with animal (real or fictional) features attractive. Even this definition is pretty bad, because everyone has their own definitions of how much and which features are attractive, and same for the human features. Starfox, Sly Cooper, Sonic the Hedgehog occupy this spectrum, as do Felicia from Darkstalkers and Aisha from Outlaw Star (in her normal form, I mean).
-People who fetishize anthropomorphic animals. This is what far too many people assume with the word "furry". This person enjoys doing 'funtime activities' with at least one participant using props (often a full costume) to appear similar to an anthropomorphic animal.
-People who have personas which are anthropomorphic animals. Note that persona is not necessarily an identity thing. For example, the persona I most use these days is a sleeping zombie (if I can ever get around to re-doing my avatar, at least). I certainly don't think I'm a zombie, or particularly sleepy.
-People who have personas which are animals.
-People who believe that their true identity is an anthropomorphic animal or a mostly-regular animal. There are many people who believe that their pink ape-skin is not their real body. There's a lot of different things going on here, really.

Worth noting that, just like with LGBTAetc, a lot of these groups don't care for each other, even ones which sound basically the same to anyone else. Just talk to almost any of the latter group about 'otherkin', for example, and they'll express repulsion.

And, of course, it's important to remember that none of those things makes anyone more or less a valuable member of society. Yes, some people who dress in fursuits are pedophiles or whatever. But, guess what? So are some people who don't dress in fursuits. Being a 'furry' is not, in and of itself, bad.

No matter how creepy those masks are.

[Coidzor]

First off, fixed that for you.

And no, I meant more like saturation of a stereotype vs. those who are generally focused on in the media.

Right. Because saying "I'm homosexual/bisexual/asexual" says so much about one's gender identity. Totally nothing at all to do with sexuality. Nope. Nothing at all.

I figured you might have nebulously meant one of many, many things like that, but you chose your words quite poorly, Hawkflight, hence my pointing that out.

[Hawkflight]

Yes, some people who dress in fursuits are pedophiles or whatever. But, guess what? So are some people who don't dress in fursuits. Being a 'furry' is not, in and of itself, bad.

That's exactly what I've said, time and time again (and again). Nopony ever listens to me.

[Hawkflight]

Right. Because saying "I'm homosexual/bisexual/asexual" says so much about one's gender identity. Totally nothing at all to do with sexuality. Nope. Nothing at all.

I figured you might have nebulously meant one of many, many things like that, but you chose your words quite poorly, Hawkflight, hence my pointing that out.

Ah, yeah, I figured. I'm still tired. It's far too early here. ^^;

Okay, yeah, you're right. For some reason I was thinking about transgendered people specifically. It would probably be more accurate to say sexual/gender identity. Is there an umbrella term for that?

[Coidzor]

Are you meaning genderqueer then? Though that doesn't quite seem to fit what I'm interpreting of what you're saying, but it might be that I'm approaching about 30 degrees off.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Yikes! I admit my use of the word "fetish" was poor, but not intentionally so. Subculture is indeed the word I'm looking for.

Coming from outside the culture, I can say that (from my perspective at least) the term "furry" brings to mind people who are of varying degrees sexually attracted to anthromorphic creatures. Some who are merely turned on by provocative pictures of them (and hey, who is anybody to judge, I know *many* people who would define themselves as straight as possible and were *very* turned on by Jessica Rabbit back in the day... and if a cartoon can do that, why not a sufficiently provocative anthromorphic cartoon?), and others who want to dress up as an animal while engaging in the acts.

It seems the term can also be an umbrella for those who derive little to no sexual satisfaction from it, but do enjoy costuming. At least if I'm understanding correctly? I know I would *love* to have the courage to wear a tail at GenCon. I bought one even... but made my wife wear it as I was too afraid of ridicule.

I know, I'm a coward. I'm sorry for that.

[Coidzor]

I know, I'm a coward. I'm sorry for that.

Don't apologize to us.

(and hey, who is anybody to judge, I know *many* people who would define themselves as straight as possible and were *very* turned on by Jessica Rabbit back in the day... and if a cartoon can do that, why not a sufficiently provocative anthromorphic cartoon?)

You have got me wondering though, how exactly is finding a cartoon designed to titillate straight men an example of non-straightness?

[DeadManSleeping]

You have got me wondering though, how exactly is finding a cartoon designed to titillate straight men an example of non-straightness?

I believe the comparison was to furry, not gay (to put it succinctly).

In other words, the features that made Jessica Rabbit attractive are all fully present in a LOT of anthropomorphic artwork.

[Dogmantra]

the only contribution I can make is that I am not a furry but I turned my friend into a furry accidentally

[Coidzor]

I believe the comparison was to furry, not gay (to put it succinctly).

In other words, the features that made Jessica Rabbit attractive are all fully present in a LOT of anthropomorphic artwork.

And yet the word choice of "straight" there certainly implies otherwise. Sure, he's using it as an analogy for furry, but he's saying that there's something non-straight about it.

[Snowstorm]

I bought one even... but made my wife wear it ...

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I wore one last year, but I'm just not in the right shape to be calling attention to my ass. *nods*

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

the only contribution I can make is that I am not a furry but I turned my friend into a furry accidentally

This is a story I've got to hear, please.