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    Default 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    The Elementalist

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    "Great, the rope snapped! I don't suppose you have some kind of magic that will help us get across this ravine?" "No, but call me if you need something set on fire!"


    HD: d6
    Class Skills: The elementalist's class skills are Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (Arcane), Profession, and Spellcraft
    Skill Points: 2+Int per level, x4 at 1st level

    The Elementalist
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Destructive Casting, Single Minded|5|-

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |Bonus Metamagic Feat|6|-|-

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    ||7|-|-|-

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    ||8|5|-|-|-

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Bonus Metamagic Feat, Prismatic Damage|8|6|-|-|-|-

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    ||8|7|5|-|-|-|-

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    ||8|8|6|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |Bonus Metamagic Feat|8|8|7|5|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    ||8|8|8|6|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Irresistible Damage|8|8|8|7|5|-|-|-|-

    11th|
    +8
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Bonus Metamagic Feat|8|8|8|8|6|-|-|-|-

    12th|
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    ||8|8|8|8|7|5|-|-|-

    13th|
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Sight of the Azure|8|8|8|8|8|6|-|-|-

    14th|
    +10
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |Bonus Metamagic Feat|8|8|8|8|8|7|5|-|-

    15th|
    +11
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |Improved Prismatic Casting|8|8|8|8|8|8|6|-|-

    16th|
    +12
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    ||8|8|8|8|8|8|7|5|-

    17th|
    +12
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |Bonus Metamagic Feat|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|6|-

    18th|
    +13
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    ||8|8|8|8|8|8|8|7|5

    19th|
    +14
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    ||8|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|6

    20th|
    +15
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |Bonus Metamagic Feat, Avatar of Destruction|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|7[/table]

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The elementalist is proficient with simple weapons. He is proficient with light armor, but not with shields. To be honest, the somatic components for all spells are pretty much the same (A fireball from a sorcerer is just as difficult to cast as a fireball from the elementalist) but for balance's sake, pretend I gave you a legitimate reason that wearing light armor doesn't interfere with his spellcasting.

    Spellcasting: An elementalist is able to cast a small number of arcane spells. He may choose his spells known from any spell list, arcane or divine, but the spells he chooses must be of the conjuration or evocation school, and must deal numerical hit point damage as a direct result of the spell being cast, even if the damage is not dealt until the target is touched or hit by a ray or orb. (acid arrow would be acceptable, but summon monster I would not) Additionally, the elementalist may not select spells that deal non-elemental damage, such as holy word. (For the sake of this class feature, the elements are defined as fire, cold, sonic, acid, force and electricity.)

    The elementalist knows spells as the sorcerer, though he knows one extra spell per spell level, gained as soon as he gains access to that spell level. He casts his spells spontaneously. To learn or cast a spell, the elementalist must have a Charisma score of 10+spell level. The elementalist needs 19 Charisma to cast his most powerful spells, and at least 11 Charisma to cast any spells at all. The DC for the elementalist's spells, if they allow a saving throw, is 10+spell level+Cha modifier. The elementalist receives bonus spells per day for a high Charisma score, as noted on page 8 of the Player's Handbook.

    For the purposes of using scrolls, wands, etc, the elementalist is considered to not have a spell list. (Even if the scroll or wand is of a spell he knows)

    Destructive Casting (Ex): The elementalist is not like a normal wizard or sorcerer. His arcane energies derive less from studying magic or from an innate gift, and more from his desire to make things explode. The magic of the world simply flows through him and allows him to cause harm to others. However, this particular type of magic is dangerous and is seriously frowned upon.

    By taking a single level of this class, the elementalist's power is unlocked, and the floodgate opens. After gaining this class feature, no deity (good, neutral, or evil, lawful or chaotic) will ever bestow any gift of divine spellcasting to the elementalist, nor will nature grant him its power. If the elementalist already has divine spellcasting from another class or source, he immediately loses it and his caster level for divine spells is treated as 0. He is treated as not having a divine spell list for command item usage.

    In exchange for forever walking the path of destruction, the elementalist's spells are much more potent. Whenever the elementalist casts a spell that deals damage in the form of XdY, he deals 1 extra point of damage per die. The extra damage is of the same type of damage (fire, cold, etc) that the spell deals. At 5th level, and every 5 levels afterwards, this extra damage increases by 1, to a maximum of +5/die at level 20.


    Single-Minded (Ex): An elementalist finds it extremely difficult to concentrate on normal arcane magic, even if he has spent years learning it. The elementalist's caster level when casting spells of any school other than conjuration or evocation is lowered by 1, and his caster level when casting any conjuration or evocation spell is increased by 1. These changes increase by 1 at 5th level, and every five levels afterwards. (To a maximum of +5 CL for conjuration/evocation at level 20, and -5 CL on all other spells at level 20)


    Bonus Metamagic Feat: At 2nd level, and every 3 levels afterwards, the elementalist receives a bonus metamagic feat. He must meet all qualifications for it. He may substitute one or more of these bonus metamagic feats for the Arcane Thesis feat, but he must meet the qualifications for it when he takes it.


    Prismatic Casting (Ex): At 5th level, the elementalist gains the Energy Substitution feat as a bonus feat if he didn't already have it. He may apply Energy Substitution to any spell he casts without increasing the casting time. This class feature also allows the elementalist to change the element he chose for his Energy Substitution feat as a free action.


    Irresistible Damage (Ex): The elementalist is able to draw upon more magical energy than a sorcerer, making his spells that much harder to simply shrug off. Starting at 10th level, the elementalist may take 10 on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. If he chooses not to take 10 on a caster level check made to overcome spell resistance, he may instead roll twice and take the higher number.


    Sight of the Azure (Su): The elementalist can tap into the Eye of the World, known as the "Azure", by sacrificing some of his arcane power, and in return temporarily gain knowledge of The Truth of all. By expending a number of spell slots whose total spell level is equal to or greater than 6th, the elementalist can cast true-seeing as a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to his elementalist caster level.


    Improved Prismatic Casting (Ex): Starting at 15th level, the elementalist is able to use the Energy Substitution feat to change the type of damage his spells deal to force damage.

    Avatar of Destruction (Su): The elementalist is a beast of power and rage. At 20th level, all the magical energy of the world flows through him, and he can channel it all at once. Starting at 20th level, once per day, the elementalist may expend a full round action and make a DC 40 Concentration check. If the elementalist succeeds, he enters a powerful state of mind that allows him to temporarily better control the spells he casts with much less effort. For 1 round per caster level, up to his Charisma modifier (minimum 5 rounds), all metamagic that the elementalist applies to his spells take a -2 spell level adjustment penalty (with no minimum, but using a minimum of a level 1 spell slot). So an elementalist in the avatar state who casts an empowered, force substituted fireball uses a 1st level spell slot.

    After the elementalist's avatar state ends, he becomes exhausted.

    Alternatively, upon reaching 20th level the elementalist may elect to choose a weaker version of this ability called Avatar of Might. The conditions for entering and the penalty upon leaving remain the same as Avatar of Destruction, however the effect is completely different. While under the effect of the Avatar of Might class feature, the elementalist's spells that deal damage have no level cap. (In other words, orb of fire would deal 25d6 fire damage for a 25 CL elementalist, rather than stopping at 15)

    Unlike Avatar of Destruction, Avatar of Might has a minimum duration of 1 minute. If an elementalist chooses Avatar of Might, he may not change his mind and choose Avatar of Destruction later.


    Changelog
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    1. Clarified that Single-Minded was an extraordinary ability
    2. Changed the name from damager to elementalist
    3. Edited table "Superior Damage" to reflect the real name, "Irresistible Damage"
    4. Removed the Charisma cap on the bonus provided by Destructive Casting
    5. Edited Prismatic Casting to fit the theme of the class. Now instead of specializing in one element (which was an unintentional implication of the wording of the class feature), the elementalist can simply change the element of his spell at will.
    6. Added "Sight of the Azure" at 13th level, which will allow the elementalist to gain a little edge up in combat.
    7. Limited Avatar State to Cha mod rounds
    8. Added the Avatar of Might ACF
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-17 at 12:24 AM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Damager (PEACH?)

    Goodbye Warmage, helloooo--!


    ...yanno, "Damager" is a bit too generic for this I figure. Blaster already prettymuch nails what it does, rather than just deal damage (considering hitting something with a sword also inflicts damage). On the other hand though, with the limitation to Acid/Fire/Cold/Electricity/Sonic/Force, it rather sounds like an Elementalist here. Why the limitation?

    Also, why no 0-level spells?
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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Damager (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Goodbye Warmage, helloooo--!


    ...yanno, "Damager" is a bit too generic for this I figure. Blaster already prettymuch nails what it does, rather than just deal damage (considering hitting something with a sword also inflicts damage). On the other hand though, with the limitation to Acid/Fire/Cold/Electricity/Sonic/Force, it rather sounds like an Elementalist here. Why the limitation?

    Also, why no 0-level spells?
    There, changed the name to elementalist, and you know, that was a lot of typing. So I'm not doing it again lol.

    No 0 level spells because they suck except for detect magic, read magic, create water and summon instrument, all of which he can't cast.

    The limitation is because there are a lot of spells out there that deal damage, but they shouldn't be on the elementalist's spells known, like holy smite. It's still an arcane class.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    I'm not seeing the downside to Single Minded. You stated in the spellcasting section that an elementalist can only cast conjuration and evocation spells that do immediate damage. Single Minded says that an elementalist gets a bonus to CL for these spells, but a penalty to any other kind of spell.

    The way I see it, he gets a penalty to what he can't do.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    I'm not seeing the downside to Single Minded. You stated in the spellcasting section that an elementalist can only cast conjuration and evocation spells that do immediate damage. Single Minded says that an elementalist gets a bonus to CL for these spells, but a penalty to any other kind of spell.

    The way I see it, he gets a penalty to what he can't do.
    Yes, it's for multiclassing. It penalizes your caster level for spells you get from wizard levels, for example. Basically, it locks you into just doing damage, while reducing the durations of utility spells like fly, buff spells like haste, and debuffs like stinking cloud. It stops you from cheating by multiclassing. You're in this class to do damage only. I've taken a lot of steps to make sure you can't get around that.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    I like this idea, but may I suggest something? Instead of limiting it to damage only energy spells, why not limit the spell to certain subtypes. This would allow abstract abilities, such as those that control earth, wind, or water, but that don't necessarily deal cold, acid, or electricity damage. There are some pretty neat effects with those 'elements.'
    Last edited by eftexar; 2011-07-26 at 02:54 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    I like this idea, but may I suggest something? Instead of limiting it to damage only energy spells, why not limit the spell to certain subtypes. This would allow abstract abilities, such as those that control earth, wind, or water, but that don't necessarily deal cold, acid, or electricity damage. There are some pretty neat effects with those 'elements.'
    This. I primarily asked about the limitation for spells like Whirling Blades or Wings of Flurry, which are swell, but don't deal energy damage.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Edit: Never mind, looked those up.

    I like the current restrictions as is though. The smaller the spell list, and the fewer options the caster has, the weaker he is. Elemental damage is good enough. It's not "optimal", but it's good enough.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-07-26 at 04:35 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Looking at your spells per day, I agree with the extra spells. A blaster caster is going to be throwing a damaging spell (or two) in every round of every combat, and needs to have the casting stamina to last through a full day's worth of encounters.

    Destructive Casting doesn't really need to be capped at the caster's Charisma modifier, since even an elite-array caster will easily meet the required minimum just by advancing his casting attribute +1 every four levels. You could simplify the ability and simply remove the Charisma cap.

    I am somewhat concerned about the size of the boost. From 1st - 4th level, it's nothing special; +1 to +4 depending on the spell. Between 5th - 9th level, it becomes more impressive; +4 to +18 for most spells, or as high as +27 if empowered. At 10th - 14th level, it's a mighty bonus; +15 to +42 (up to +63 if empowered). The bonus is truly daunting at 15th - 19th level; +28 to +76 (up to +228 if twinned and empowered). At 20th level, the damage bonus could easily reach +300 on a twinned, empowered spell. From 10th level onward, the damage bonus is doubling (or even tripling) the damage of most spells. Is this what you wanted?


    You have a feature called Superior Damage on the chart at level 10 that is not described in the class write-up.


    I'd disagree with your goal of punishing the player for multi-classing. The limitation to conjuration and evocation spells that deal damage is already an extremely narrow restriction that excellently describes the elementalist's narrow focus. However, multi-classing is the process of setting aside one's training in a thing to train in something unrelated. If a character wants to set aside his elementalist studies for a time in order to broaden his capabilities, more power to him! He's already sacrificing considerable power by multi-classing in the first place.

    Instead of killing his divine spellcasting and nerfing his arcane spellcasting, why not just specify that the benefits of Destructive Casting and Irresistable Damage apply only to his elementalist spells? This admirably communicates the narrow focus of the class without imposing limits that might stunt creative builds.


    Avatar of Destruction causes me some heartburn. Yes, I know it's a gloriously flamboyant capstone. And it sure captures the "set the fire on fire" approach to combat of the class. But after building a class that's strictly limited in its capabilities (and thus plays well on a team because it needs the help of others with different strengths), your capstone enables the elementalist to go OVER NINE THOUSAND for a single encounter; he kills all the bad guys in one or two rounds and completely steals the show from the rest of the team, then he falls apart and the party is forced to stop and rest in order to accommodate him. This is the antithesis of being a team player. It encourages the "15-minute" workday in the worst possible way, it marginalizes the rest of the party (because really, who can compete with the guy who casts 18th-level spells with a +100 damage bonus?) It trivializes boss-fights and climactic encounters, and it's grossly out of line with the power curve of the rest of the class.

    I'd suggest a hard nerf to the ability, something like this:

    "For 1 round per caster level, the effective spell level of the elementalist's spell slots is increased by 1. After the elementalist's avatar state ends, he becomes fatigued."

    Alternately, you might simply replace the capstone with the Improved Metamagic epic feat, usable for one minute per day.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-07-26 at 05:08 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
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    Looking at your spells per day, I agree with the extra spells. A blaster caster is going to be throwing a damaging spell (or two) in every round of every combat, and needs to have the casting stamina to last through a full day's worth of encounters.

    Destructive Casting doesn't really need to be capped at the caster's Charisma modifier, since even an elite-array caster will easily meet the required minimum just by advancing his casting attribute +1 every four levels. You could simplify the ability and simply remove the Charisma cap.

    I am somewhat concerned about the size of the boost. From 1st - 4th level, it's nothing special; +1 to +4 depending on the spell. Between 5th - 9th level, it becomes more impressive; +4 to +18 for most spells, or as high as +27 if empowered. At 10th - 14th level, it's a mighty bonus; +15 to +42 (up to +63 if empowered). The bonus is truly daunting at 15th - 19th level; +28 to +76 (up to +228 if twinned and empowered). At 20th level, the damage bonus could easily reach +300 on a twinned, empowered spell. From 10th level onward, the damage bonus is doubling (or even tripling) the damage of most spells. Is this what you wanted?


    You have a feature called Superior Damage on the chart at level 10 that is not described in the class write-up.


    I'd disagree with your goal of punishing the player for multi-classing. The limitation to conjuration and evocation spells that deal damage is already an extremely narrow restriction that excellently describes the elementalist's narrow focus. However, multi-classing is the process of setting aside one's training in a thing to train in something unrelated. If a character wants to set aside his elementalist studies for a time in order to broaden his capabilities, more power to him! He's already sacrificing considerable power by multi-classing in the first place.

    Instead of killing his divine spellcasting and nerfing his arcane spellcasting, why not just specify that the benefits of Destructive Casting and Irresistable Damage apply only to his elementalist spells? This admirably communicates the narrow focus of the class without imposing limits that might stunt creative builds.


    Avatar of Destruction causes me some heartburn. Yes, I know it's a gloriously flamboyant capstone. And it sure captures the "set the fire on fire" approach to combat of the class. But after building a class that's strictly limited in its capabilities (and thus plays well on a team because it needs the help of others with different strengths), your capstone enables the elementalist to go OVER NINE THOUSAND for a single encounter; he kills all the bad guys in one or two rounds and completely steals the show from the rest of the team, then he falls apart and the party is forced to stop and rest in order to accommodate him. This is the antithesis of being a team player. It encourages the "15-minute" workday in the worst possible way, it marginalizes the rest of the party (because really, who can compete with the guy who casts 18th-level spells with a +100 damage bonus?) It trivializes boss-fights and climactic encounters, and it's grossly out of line with the power curve of the rest of the class.

    I'd suggest a hard nerf to the ability, something like this:

    "For 1 round per caster level, the effective spell level of the elementalist's spell slots is increased by 1. After the elementalist's avatar state ends, he becomes fatigued."

    Alternately, you might simply replace the capstone with the Improved Metamagic epic feat, usable for one minute per day.
    Ah, jiriku. So nice to see you. I thought this class might attract your attention.

    Anti-Multiclassing *- Well, in order for the class to truly outpace the sorcerer in terms of damage, you need a CL boost so you're automatically doing more dice damage than the sorcerer by the time you get the spell. But just providing that to the class with no real limitation on it is difficult to balance. Even if you only provided the boost from Single-Minded, Destructive Casting, and Irresistible Damage to the spells from this class, then you're giving the class by itself a +5 CL with no real drawback at all. So that's not really balanced either.

    Destructive Casting- Fair enough, I'll just make it a static +5. And as for the increase in damage, it's completely necessary in order to compete with the Mailman, as the Elementalist does not receive arcane spellsurge. It's not much of a powerhouse blaster if the sorcerer is dealing twice as much damage per round because he can cast twice per round.

    Avatar of Destruction- See above. Increasing your effective spell slot by 1 per level is not going to make up for not taking Incantatrix or having arcane spellsurge. If this class truly is going to hold the biggest nuke, then it should be allowed to hold the biggest nuke. By trading absolutely every bit of flexibility and utility that the sorcerer has in order to be a blaster, the Elementalist should be the undisputed king of it. This class is intended to be at the top of the Tier 2 list. I agree with your complaints about the current capstone but your suggestion for replacing it is far too weak.

    Edit: Fixed Prismatic Casting to allow you to choose your Energy Substitution with every spell.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-07-26 at 05:43 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Ah, jiriku. So nice to see you. I thought this class might attract your attention.
    Wherever a PC causes a really, really, big explosion, there too am I.
    -- From the Book of Jiriku

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    And as for the increase in damage, it's completely necessary in order to compete with the Mailman..... By trading absolutely every bit of flexibility and utility that the sorcerer has in order to be a blaster, the Elementalist should be the undisputed king of it. This class is intended to be at the top of the Tier 2 list.
    Ok, that reframes the discussion somewhat. I had assumed that you were aiming for a lower point on the optimization curve. So your goal for the class is that it should equal or exceed the performance of the highest-optimized direct damage builds in the game. Whew.

    I will withdraw my concerns then about damage overload, since damage overload is part of the design intent of a mailman class. I would, however, suggest that you add some options to improve reliability of delivering the mail. For example, at present, and invisible opponent with Evasion could jerk you around almost indefinitely. Worse, not only will you have a hard time finding invisible opponents in order to blast them, but unless someone else can see the opponent, you won't be able to tell what you're fighting or whether your blasting spells are having a significant effect on it - you could spend half the fight dropping fireballs on a particularly elusive invisible red dragon and never realize you were just spinning your wheels. In fact, if I were your DM, I'd have that dragon cold-substitute his breath weapon and summon some ice devils just to sucker you into doing exactly that.

    You're also hurting for accuracy, since without true strike you really don't have any means of defeating miss chances or improving your accuracy with ray spells. Maybe you could add some sort of arcane strike-variant where you gain the ability to sacrifice a spell slot as a swift action in order to pick from a menu of accuracy-boosting effects for your next spell?

    Also, the players who have to party with this damage-dealing monster might thank you for adding an option that helps with avoiding friendly fire..
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-07-26 at 06:01 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Wherever a PC causes a really, really, big explosion, there too am I.
    -- From the Book of Jiriku
    I was referring to the nature of the class and your elemental fixes, but alright.



    Ok, that reframes the discussion somewhat. I had assumed that you were aiming for a lower point on the optimization curve. So your goal for the class is that it should equal or exceed the performance of the highest-optimized direct damage builds in the game. Whew.

    I will withdraw my concerns then about damage overload, since damage overload is part of the design intent of a mailman class. I would, however, suggest that you add some options to improve reliability of delivering the mail. For example, at present the class will have considerable difficulty dealing with invisible creatures. Not only will you have a hard time finding them in order to blast them, but unless someone else can see the opponent, you won't be able to tell what you're fighting or whether your blasting spells are having a significant effect on it - you could spend half the fight dropping fireballs on a particularly elusive invisible red dragon and never realize you were just spinning your wheels. In fact, if I were your DM, I'd have that dragon cold-substitute his breath weapon and summon some ice devils just to sucker you into doing exactly that.

    You're also hurting for accuracy, since without true strike you really don't have any means of defeating miss chances or improving your accuracy with ray spells.

    Maybe you could add some sort of arcane strike-variant where you gain the ability to sacrifice a spell slot as a swift action in order to pick from a menu of accuracy-boosting effects for your next spell?

    Also, the players who have to party with this damage-dealing monster might thank you for adding an option that helps with avoiding friendly fire..
    Nope. A class that started out being called "The Damager" was definitely intended to replace the Mailman. Well, not exactly replace it, but be a more thematically appropriate, much less complicated competitor. (In one class, no less)

    I wasn't aware that true strike assisted with miss chance. IIRC, it only adds a static +20 Insight bonus to hit.

    And you're right about accuracy, but I don't think it's too much of an issue (to the point that it requires a class feature to fix instead of giving the player themselves something to customize and work on and optimize), seeing as with the spell resistance boost and the improved caster level, auto-hit evocation spells become a more viable option. (Especially with the damage boost).

    Edit: Not to mention the extra 5 BAB.

    You're right about the evil DMs. Hmm...a way to deal with invisible creatures, that's a good point...Man, why does glitterdust have to be an answer to everything?

    I guess I could add a true seeing effect...maybe around 12th level...

    Edit: Added "Sight of the Azure" at 13th, 2 levels after prepared arcane gets it and 1 level after spontaneous arcane gets it. Now I need to deal with a way to not fry my party members. Any suggestions?
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-07-26 at 06:14 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Hmm...good idea. It's definitely better than a blaster sorcerer/wizard. Still, I'd rather play a sorcerer with a focus on elemental spells (to include non-damage spells), but this definitely has it's niche.
    There's also some level of specialization for the higher leveled spells (you can't cover every energy type with 9th level spells, since you only know 4.)

    However, I would strongly encourage you to include cantrips. Yes, they are all weaker than 1st level spells, but no more so than 1st level spells are weaker than 2nd level spells.

    Also, for many spellcasters, low-level spells retain at least some usefulness at high levels...but pure damage spells rarely if ever do. At level 15+, are those 8 1st level spells/day good for much? True, some damage spells have effects, but most of your spells are likely to be superseded by spells of the same energy type of only a slightly higher level.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Hmm...good idea. It's definitely better than a blaster sorcerer/wizard. Still, I'd rather play a sorcerer with a focus on elemental spells (to include non-damage spells), but this definitely has it's niche.
    There's also some level of specialization for the higher leveled spells (you can't cover every energy type with 9th level spells, since you only know 4.)

    However, I would strongly encourage you to include cantrips. Yes, they are all weaker than 1st level spells, but no more so than 1st level spells are weaker than 2nd level spells.

    Also, for many spellcasters, low-level spells retain at least some usefulness at high levels...but pure damage spells rarely if ever do. At level 15+, are those 8 1st level spells/day good for much? True, some damage spells have effects, but most of your spells are likely to be superseded by spells of the same energy type of only a slightly higher level.
    I encourage you to re-examine Prismatic Casting, which allows the elementalist to pick his element out of the hat whenever he casts a spell. (And also the Improved Prismatic Casting ability, which allows you to drop Meteors of force on people's heads at level 18)

    Additionally, the only cantrips that qualify are ray of frost, electric jolt, and acid splash, as far as I know. Why would I include those? You don't receive bonus 0 level spells per day for a high Charisma score, and even at 1st level, 1d3+1 isn't exactly better than shooting a light crossbow.

    Edit: About your other concern, you're right. Lower level damage spells don't make up for much, except how easily abused they are with metamagic. (That's why people use their 9th level spell slots to cast 4th level spells) So assuming that 3rd level, when all the good AOE spells come in, is still abusable later, that only leaves 2nd and 1st level spells to be concerned with.

    1st level spells- magic missile is still going to be abusable, always. The auto-Force, auto-hit, ignore concealment, and scaling damage is just too powerful to ignore. Plus, with the boost from Destructive casting, it becomes 5d4+30, instead of 5d4+5. And the you maximize, empower, still, silent, invisible, repeat and twin it, and you deal quite a bit of unavoidable, irresistible force damage. (180+1/2 of 5d4)

    See the possibilities? Metamagic abuse allows you to make those weaker 1st level spells work at higher levels! And that's the draw of the class, I like to think. When other casters must resort to delayed blast fireball and harm to do competent damage, you can surpass them with lesser orb of fire if you want.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-07-26 at 06:35 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Additionally, the only cantrips that qualify are ray of frost, electric jolt, and acid splash, as far as I know. Why would I include those? You don't receive bonus 0 level spells per day for a high Charisma score, and even at 1st level, 1d3+1 isn't exactly better than shooting a light crossbow.
    Personally, I would include them in order to match the pattern of other full casting classes (save the dread necromancer, which I dislike primarily for lacking cantrips). I also always houserule in bonus cantrips (equal to ability mod) for this reason, but that is just me. There is actually a mechanical benefit of having them, in that versatile spellcaster allows you to use two cantrips to cast a first level spell, though that is arguably a fringe benefit...

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Analysis View Post
    Personally, I would include them in order to match the pattern of other full casting classes (save the dread necromancer, which I dislike primarily for lacking cantrips). I also always houserule in bonus cantrips (equal to ability mod) for this reason, but that is just me. There is actually a mechanical benefit of having them, in that versatile spellcaster allows you to use two cantrips to cast a first level spell, though that is arguably a fringe benefit...
    It's not just the dread necro. It's the warmage and the beguiler too, all the focused "specialist" spontaneous casters. None of them get cantrips. And that's the format I'm following so..yeah.

    Besides, there simply aren't enough damaging cantrips in 3.5. (Which is why the other specialist classes didn't get them. There weren't enough of each niche to make a full spell level worth it)

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    It's not just the dread necro. It's the warmage and the beguiler too, all the focused "specialist" spontaneous casters. None of them get cantrips. And that's the format I'm following so..yeah.

    Besides, there simply aren't enough damaging cantrips in 3.5. (Which is why the other specialist classes didn't get them. There weren't enough of each niche to make a full spell level worth it)
    Complete Arcane, warmage class table, page 11: 5-6 cantrips/day, all levels.
    Page 90, warmage spell list, 0th-level spells: acid splash, disrupt undead, light, ray of frost.

    PHBII, beguiler class table, page 7: same number of cantrips/day as warmage.
    Page 11, beguiler spell list, 0th-level spells: dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, message, open/close, read magic.

    Do we somehow have different versions of the books?

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Analysis View Post
    Complete Arcane, warmage class table, page 11: 5-6 cantrips/day, all levels.
    Page 90, warmage spell list, 0th-level spells: acid splash, disrupt undead, light, ray of frost.

    PHBII, beguiler class table, page 7: same number of cantrips/day as warmage.
    Page 11, beguiler spell list, 0th-level spells: dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, message, open/close, read magic.

    Do we somehow have different versions of the books?
    Weird. Still, definitely not worth it in my opinion. Seriously. Ray of frost and acid splash just aren't powerful spells, and I'm not willing to go back and do all that coding. I hate coding tables.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Okay, I fixed the Avatar of Destruction ability. What do you all think?

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Honestly, it seems both ripe for abuse and ultimately kind of pointless. By level 20 you already have the damage output to one-shot or two-shot many epic foes and everything below CR 20 that's not smart enough to put up appropriate spell protections. Flattened and destroyed is flattened and destroyed. If I was taking my 20th level of elementalist, I'd like to get an ability that will let me do something I couldn't do before.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-07-28 at 11:02 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Honestly, it seems both ripe for abuse and ultimately kind of pointless. By level 20 you already have the damage output to one-shot or two-shot many epic foes and everything below CR 20 that's not smart enough to put up appropriate spell protections. Flattened and destroyed is flattened and destroyed. If I was taking my 20th level of elementalist, I'd like to get an ability that will let me do something I couldn't do before.
    Ouch...first you say it ruins the team-building, then when I tone it down a bit (to just a little bit better than the fix you yourself suggested) you call it pointless...okay, so what would you suggest I change it to then?

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Sorry... I tend to be overly blunt IRL, and in text a casual criticism can come across as soul-crushing. Not my intent.

    Where I'm coming from is that the capstone lets you kill things better. However, you already kill things better than any other class in the game. What exactly are you going to use your capstone against at L20 that you couldn't already kill in one round at L19? I'd say you want an ability that lets you take your existing powers and use them in a cool new way. How about if you can...

    ...temporarily regain hit points or shed negative status effects for each metamagic you apply to a spell.

    ...temporarily share your metamagic feats with nearby allied casters.

    ...cast a spell as an immediate action.

    ...automatically assess the spell resistance, energy resistance, and vulnerabilities or immunities to energy of foes.

    ...use an immediate action to redirect or counter damaging spells directed at you.

    Any of these abilities would let you do something you couldn't do before, would be useful in combat, and would be thematically related to your existing abilities.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Now that is an interesting glass canon. :)

    You should not write like "forcing the class not to make sub-optimal multiclassing decisions" justifies huge bonuses in other areas. ;)

    The serious focus and more important, the lack of scroll-casting, that however really justifies some power.

    Obviously, this class voids the Warmage but how good is he really. Let's pit him at level 20 against a big red (old red dragon, CR 20 note that Dragon CR is usually less then the CR of a non-dragon of the same power. But in this case I think it's okay)

    Elementarist: Suprise! *goes Super- Sayajin*

    Big Red: Roaaaah! (low initiative)

    Elementarist: Meteor Swarm, twin spell (+2), energy admixture (sonic) (+2), maximised (+1), empowered (+0), Heighten Spell +1 (-1), Enlarge Spell (-1), Fortify spell (-1), energy substitution cold, (-2)

    The next part spoilered for all who are only interested in the result. Note, that this metamagic monster spell will not be resolved much faster at the gaming table. ;)

    Spoiler
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    ... Now it's getting a little complicated ... What stacks with what ... We know empower and Maximize don't work together. I think in the same way, a twin spell will be effected by no other metamagic feat (which is really good for the dragon since this will include energy substitution). Not sure about fortify, is there only one resistance check for the whole double-spell or are both resisted individually? Heighten Spell doesn't really do anything since a touch attack is easy against big red. Energy Substitution will substitute the maximized and empowered damage, the energy admixtured damage is neither maxed nor empowered. Substitution and Admixture won't change/copy the bludgeon damage.

    With take 10, the spell resistance is overcome. Effective caster level is 27!!


    Normally: 4* ( 2d6 blunt + 6d6 fire)

    Maximised 4* (12 blunt + 36 fire) (Substitution: fire ->cold)
    Empowered: 0.5* 4* ( 2d6 blunt + 6d6 fire) (Substitution: fire ->cold)
    Energy admixture (sonic): 4* ( 6d6 sonic)
    Twin spell: 4* ( 2d6 blunt + 6d6 fire)

    I will now calculate averages and include Destructive Casting:

    4* ( 12+10 blunt + 36+30 cold )
    + 2* ( 7+10 blunt + 21+30 cold)
    + 4* ( 21+30 sonic)
    + 4* ( 7+10 blunt + 21+30 fire)
    = 190 blunt + 366 cold + 204 sonic + 204 fire

    So, a Black dragon would take 964 damage, adjusted for his fire immunity and cold vulnerability, the Big Red takes


    943 damage!

    That kills him twice. That kills a Great Wyrm (Whose spell resistance is 1 above take ten, so either the Elementarist has spell penetration or a 25% chance to fail the spell resistance check). Even if this Great Wyrm has buffed himself with some Energy resistance (cold) because he knows his weakness.

    Now this was of course no whole test but I have drawn the following conclusion:

    Avatar of Destruction coupled with access to the Complete arcane means that every round within Avatar mode kills one creature or empties one spell-shaped area. Reaching kilo-damages levels is easy. :)


    What about moderate levels. Level 11, enemy is Cloud Giant (because he has no immunities/vulnerabilities like Fire or Frost giants)

    Cone of Cold hits for 14d6+42=~91 damage with reflex half.
    Empowered scorching rays (should hit and) deal 3*1.5* 4d6+12=~117 damage.
    That's heavy, too. Two spells and the Giant is down. With six and eight 5th and 4th level spells, plus high Charisma, this means he can go more fights than pretty much any party ever has per day, before switching to his lower spell-levels.
    But then again, I think this might not be to bad, The Giant on his turn could move and Awesome Blow the mage of his feet, making him prone within reach and the next round, a +22/+17/+12 full attack for 4d6+18 damage each kills the Elementarist well, too and there is no defensive ability to stop that. This "Glass cannon" concept makes for a good team-play, where a utility mage counters evasive abilities, the Elementarist deals damage and a Meat-shield-Warrior stands in the enemy's charging-lines.



    As for the Avatar of Destruction scenario: I think with the limit that no metamagic feats adjustment goes below 0, the abuse part should be mostly prevented and the mage is toned down to a point where single-hit-killing a challenge for the whole group becomes hard (but not so impossible, that the full round "charging up" action would not be worth it (as long as the caster is pretty sure to beat the DC 40. If he is not, than this is purely an action for *use - teleport in - kill 'em all*.))

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Eh, a +5 CL is nice, but since I did nothing to remove damage caps, it's nothing special. It helps overcome SR, and helps you optimize damage earlier, but at 20th level CL is only used to calculate durations (which this class doesn't use) and overcoming SR (which this class is a victim to, so it should help).

    Yes, the narrow focus and lack of scrolls is a big weakness, the class needs to be able to toss lots of fire to make up for it, and as you pointed out, it can.

    Glad to see you calculated the numbers, that's about how much damage I wanted it to deal, though it's still a little bit behind the Mailman in terms of power...but hey, you really would have a hard time competing with that level of optimization anyway.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Actually Maraxus, Empowered and Maximized do work together. It specifically is mentioned so in the feats.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2011-08-15 at 04:03 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    What I meant (as you can see in the math), is, that the additional damage from Empowerment is not maximized or the other way around depending on how you look at it.

    Thus if they "worked together" 4d6 maximized and empowered would be 24*1.5 = 36 but it is only 24 + (4d6*0.5) =~ 24 + (14*0.5) = 31.

    In the same way I argued, that a twin spell is neither empowered, nor maximized or energy substituted, although this is definitely open to interpretation. (Just as well as saying, that the additional damage from maximized and empowered is energy substituted. Although doing that differently would be really strange).

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Sight of the Azure seems out of place. It seems far too utility-based for a class that relies on blasting (and doesn't focus on blasting itself).
    Avatar of Destruction is pretty cool, but a number of rounds equal to caster level might be a bit much. I suggest limiting it to your charisma modifier. I think this would be really cools used with the odd and end magic effects from 3rd party books (instead of just increasing area or damage). Over 900 damage seems pretty steep. May I suggest instead of spell level reduction, that you instead reduce each metamagic level increase to 1. It would allow you to still go nova, but keep the damage more reasonable.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    Sight of the Azure seems out of place. It seems far too utility-based for a class that relies on blasting (and doesn't focus on blasting itself).
    Avatar of Destruction is pretty cool, but a number of rounds equal to caster level might be a bit much. I suggest limiting it to your charisma modifier. I think this would be really cools used with the odd and end magic effects from 3rd party books (instead of just increasing area or damage). Over 900 damage seems pretty steep. May I suggest instead of spell level reduction, that you instead reduce each metamagic level increase to 1. It would allow you to still go nova, but keep the damage more reasonable.
    It's necessary to deal with invisible creatures.

    Charisma modifier rounds? I guess I can do that.

    I don't use 3rd party books, unfortunately. Perhaps you could have some fun on your own time making a character like that using my class, though.

    The damage isn't supposed to be "reasonable", as I told jiriku earlier. This class is supposed to go toe to toe with the Mailman, as much as possible. Avatar of Destruction isn't as good as the Incantatrix's metamagic reducer, but it lets you at least compete with it.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    I understand the problem with invisible creatures. However I hate true sight for its instant win aspect. But that's just a matter of personal opinion.
    As for the massive damage thing, may I suggest you add an alternate version of the ability for those of us whose DMs might be irritated by (or disallow) it in not-so-high power campaigns?
    Last edited by eftexar; 2011-08-15 at 07:11 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Base Class: The Elementalist (PEACH?)

    If your going for a low power campaign, then wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, and archivest should be banned, if you are allowing them, then you should be fine with allowing this class.
    And don't forget that this class is weaker than those classes I mentioned., this class is much less game breaking as it only possesses blasting spells.
    Last edited by Togath; 2011-08-15 at 07:25 PM.
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