Azathoth

[Sydonai]

So, Pathfinder's defualt setting, Golarion, is set in the same universe as Mythos-verse Earth.

Azathoth is located at the center of the universe.

Now, look at the planar chart in the "Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide". What is located at the center of the Prime Material Plane? The Positive-Energy Plane.

What does this mean for Clerics, who channel positive energy on a daily basis?
Heck, what does this mean for Golarion? Or Mythos-Earth?

[Shadowknight12]

I hope you are aware that there are many works that go by the name of [Something] Mythos. I will assume you mean the works of H.P. Lovecraft.

It means whatever the DM needs it to mean. Simply because something shares the same time/space continuum with something else doesn't mean that they are connected. The Positive Energy plane can be Azathoth's prison, or it could be the bed where it slumbers.

I highly question Pathfinder's WoW-style cannibalism of the Cthulhu Mythos, but I suppose that's not relevant to this conversation. Let us hope they don't continue to emulate WoW and start ripping off WH40K.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Well, cosmic entities tend to be pretty amoral; just imagine some sort of super massive black hole-like entity that sits at the center of the Milky Way, devouring all matter that's drawn to it. Now try to slap your silly terrestrial morality onto it; does it really apply?

Edit: Presumably Azathoth is a feature of that world's cosmology, just think of it as something powerful but irrelevant, like a supernova in a very distant star system- it could easily bring ruin to the solar system and (obviously) destroy all life on Earth, but it won't because it's so distant. Who cares besides an astronomer? (Or a powerful spellcaster trying to delve too deep into the mysteries of the cosmos, as the case may be.)

Edit: Shadow's answer is better; DM's choice. Another way to think about it is that even if Azathoth resided in the Positive Energy plane, that energy is so pure that it could not possibly be tainted in any way just by the presence of cosmic 'evil' (it's like how soap can't get dirty).

[Sydonai]

Mythos-Verse pretty much only refers to Lovecrafts work. Saying ????-Mythos might refer to something else but saying Mythos-Verse is a direct reference to the Cthulhu-Mythos.


.....Are you aware of how Azathoth is described; "Seething Nuclear Chaos", "Blind Idiot God", an non-sentient entity( If it can be called "entity" at all).

The message I got was "Azathoth is the Positive-Energy Plane", it would make sense, but its also a little disturbing if looked at from an in-setting POV.

What I want is your oppinion on what that would mean for the setting.

[Shadowknight12]

Mythos-Verse pretty much only refers to Lovecrafts work. Saying ????-Mythos might refer to something else but saying Mythos-Verse is a direct reference to the Cthulhu-Mythos.

This is simply incorrect. That may be the usage you are most familiar with, but any work that is identified as [Something] Mythos and has a 'verse is a valid target for the Mythos-Verse phrase.

.....Are you aware of how Azathoth is described; "Seething Nuclear Chaos", "Blind Idiot God", an non-sentient entity( If it can be called "entity" at all).

I am. Also, the Positive Energy Plane is infinite. Make of that what you will.

The message I got was "Azathoth is the Positive-Energy Plane", it would make sense, but its also a little disturbing if looked at from an in-setting POV.

That... I don't play Pathfinder, so I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this statement, but... I would quadruple-check my sources before making such assertions. I really want to give Paizo more credit than assuming they have indeed printed something so window-licking moronic.

What I want is your oppinion on what that would mean for the setting.

And I already gave it. It doesn't mean anything in and of itself. It means whatever the DM wants it to mean. Saying "It means X and only X!" restricts creativity, not to mention it's sheer, baseless speculation.

If you're after ideas to use in your campaigns, just re-read Lovecraft's works.

[Sydonai]

This is simply incorrect. That may be the usage you are most familiar with, but any work that is identified as [Something] Mythos and has a 'verse is a valid target for the Mythos-Verse phrase.



I am. Also, the Positive Energy Plane is infinite. Make of that what you will.



That... I don't play Pathfinder, so I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this statement, but... I would quadruple-check my sources before making such assertions. I really want to give Paizo more credit than assuming they have indeed printed something so window-licking moronic.



And I already gave it. It doesn't mean anything in and of itself. It means whatever the DM wants it to mean. Saying "It means X and only X!" restricts creativity, not to mention it's sheer, baseless speculation.

If you're after ideas to use in your campaigns, just re-read Lovecraft's works.

1; I was talking about the term "Mythos-Verse", not "Whatever-Mythos" or "Blank-Verse".

2; The Positive-Energy Plane isn't infinite in Pathfinder.

3; It was implied, not outright stated.

4; You are right, you already gave your opinion. I meant people in general, not you specifically.
The only reason you would have to post again(since you have expressed a disinterest in this thread) is to argue. I don't want to turn this into a flame-war, so please leave me alone.

[WalkingTarget]

1; I was talking about the term "Mythos-Verse", not "Whatever-Mythos" or "Blank-Verse".

I can't say that it's never been used, but I don't think I'd really come across the term "Mythos-Verse" anywhere before. Mostly because I don't see it referred to as a singular setting. That may just be me, though.

I'm pretty much with Shadow on this one, it's up to an individual GM to say what it implies. Lovecraft's descriptions of Azathoth are generic enough to leave it open to interpretation.

[CN the Logos]

So, Pathfinder's defualt setting, Golarion, is set in the same universe as Mythos-verse Earth.

Azathoth is located at the center of the universe.

Now, look at the planar chart in the "Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide". What is located at the center of the Prime Material Plane? The Positive-Energy Plane.

What does this mean for Clerics, who channel positive energy on a daily basis?
Heck, what does this mean for Golarion? Or Mythos-Earth?

Nothing ominous at all.

Seriously, Azathoth creates. It creates constantly, and randomly as far as we can tell from our limited perspective, but that's what it does. It's not some ancient sealed evil that your characters should be afraid of. It's not even evil. It's just doesn't care about anything other than the act of creation itself, which Lovecraft thought was a depressing but more likely conception of God than the ones found in the religion(s) he critiqued.

If you're going to put Azathoth in a D&D universe, having its power be positive energy makes sense. You can play it for cosmic horror if you want, but you don't have to (indeed, Azathoth is similar to the conception of God that some religious philosophies have already, and their adherents somehow manage not to go insane with horror. I don't think I can elaborate further without breaking forum rules, however). Azathoth is only ever presented as a threat when someone is about to fall into it or is having their happier prior worldviews shattered. It is also infinite or the closest thing to it, so trying to summon a manifestation of it into our reality would likely end very badly.

It might mean that channeling positive energy is no longer an inherently good act (Azathoth is the epitome of "does not care" neutrality), but if you decide that channeling positve energy is good because it creates and heals, the energy can still be used for that, and nothing changes.

You might also want to check out this. Sonnet XXII is the only direct description of Azathoth in Lovecraft's canon that I'm aware of (I don't care about the stuff by other authors that came later. Most of it is very bad). Note that Azathoth isn't as likely to be a threat to anything as "the daemon" (who is probably Nyarlathotep) is. Also, that sonnet cycle is just a good read in general, and might give you some inspiration for Lovecraftian fantasy, if you do decide to go that route.

[Sydonai]

So, channeling Positive Energy not being a "Good" act and Azathoth's cultist's not being insane monsters unless they try to summon it.
Those sound like good changes

But what does this make the Negative-Energy Plane?
Azathoth's "Shadow"?( since its located on the Plane of Shadow in Pathfinder)

[WalkingTarget]

You might also want to check out this. Sonnet XXII is the only direct description of Azathoth in Lovecraft's canon that I'm aware of (I don't care about the stuff by other authors that came later. Most of it is very bad). Note that Azathoth isn't as likely to be a threat to anything as "the daemon" (who is probably Nyarlathotep) is. Also, that sonnet cycle is just a good read in general, and might give you some inspiration for Lovecraftian fantasy, if you do decide to go that route.

There are other minor descriptions (see here for the Lovecraft Bestiary), but sonnet 22 from "Fungi from Yuggoth" is the only one that even hints that Azathoth has any sort of creative/controlling (even if it's totally random) function - although it would give a reason for him to be referred to as the "daemon-sultan" if he did do something important other than exist.

[CN the Logos]

So, channeling Positive Energy not being a "Good" act and Azathoth's cultist's not being insane monsters unless they try to summon it.
Those sound like good changes

But what does this make the Negative-Energy Plane?
Azathoth's "Shadow"?( since its located on the Plane of Shadow in Pathfinder)

I don't think Lovecraft conceived of his cosmos in dualistic terms, but his descriptions of Nyarlathotep seem to paint the Crawling Chaos as a Shiva-esque god of destruction and rebirth, and Donald Tyson extended that analogy to the point of referring to Nyarlathotep as Azathoth's shadow in his version of the Necronomicon.

Assuming I wanted to keep negative energy, I'd do something like this. Nyarlathotep is the god/personification of negative energy, having come into existence shortly after Azathoth began creating , or possibly having been a part of Azathoth before the two separated into more or less distinct beings (a la Jung's Seven Sermons to the Dead). While Azathoth creates reality constantly, Nyarlathotp maintains reality... Unfortunately from the perspective of everything living in it, it does so in the same sense that a gardener maintains his garden by pulling weeds and pruning plants: destroying flawed and/or dying parts of creation (as it does in the original short story) so that new creation can flourish, and punishing anyone who shows hubris by threatening this natural order (as it does in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath).

In this case, Nyarlathotep wouldn't technically be "evil" either; entropy is probably a necessary function of the multiverse. But it probably would be the creator of demons (which destroy anything too weak or flawed to stop them from doing so) in addition to a personification of undeath's power source. Definitely not something your party wants to meet, ever, regardless of level.

There are other minor descriptions (see here for the Lovecraft Bestiary), but sonnet 22 from "Fungi from Yuggoth" is the only one that even hints that Azathoth has any sort of creative/controlling (even if it's totally random) function - although it would give a reason for him to be referred to as the "daemon-sultan" if he did do something important other than exist.

Yep, that's the one I linked to, and for Lovecraft, it is remarkably unambiguous. Azathoth is the mythos equivalent of capital "G" God. It is only one description, but given that Azathoth is hardly described at all otherwise, it's not like there's any contradiction, and it fits with the title of Daemon Sultan.

This is a feature of Lovecraft's work in general. He hated to state things outright, thinking (probably correctly) that it was better to leave things slightly ambiguous and let the reader creep themselves out. So we get a hint of Nyarlathotep's purpose here, another there... Cthulhu is never actually described in Call of Cthulhu aside from the fact that he is very very big; the description that most people take as being what he looks like is one of an artistic depiction of a psychic vision filtered through a mind that couldn't quite handle it. At times this makes it difficult to figure out what Lovecraft wanted to convey, but it does its job of giving readers and other authors (including tabletop RPG GMs) room to expand on admirably.