Knowledge checks and immersion

[Heliomance]

One tip I picked up from the SilverClawShift journals was that it helps immersion somewhat if the person expositing is the person that made the knowledge checks. If the knowledge is dispense in character, as it were. But when I tried this, I ran into one major problem. How to get the info to that person.

Note writing is a large immersion breaker. It takes too long, if I as the DM stop talking to write out an explanatory note, everyone starts getting restless because nothing's happening. I agree, when the guy giving out the info is one of the party, it works well. I just don't know how to make it happen.

[Figgin of Chaos]

I often explain the results of the knowledge check as if they were the characters own thought process. And if I can think of a way that fits, I'll describe a flashback of the character learning the relevant knowledge; usually a lesson from their wise mentor.

Not quite the same, I know; it usually just leads to the character repeating what I said. But it's step in the right direction.

[Vladislav]

Prepare the notes, or printouts, in advance. For example, many adventure in Dungeon Magazine have pre-generated results of knowledge checks. DC 15 gives you so-and-so, DC 20 adds this-or-that, etc.

Then just hand the printout to the player and let them narrate it.

[Yukitsu]

Assuming your party aren't metagaming douches that like to screw one another over by witholding information or using information they didn't think up, I just say "X realizes/knows Y" and just say it as their internal memory on the matter. They are then free to expand upon it in character, and if they don't want to knowledge in character, then they don't have to.

[HappyBlanket]

If you're a fast texter, you can use your phone as a note. I know a few people who could certainly type fast enough to retain immersion, buuuut... I guess that's not exactly a method all of us can use, yeah?

Alternatively, if you work by laptop, you could use that instead of a phone. You'd probably be asking the player to come behind the DM screen for a moment though.

[Fhaolan]

As an alternative version, that I only recommend if you know your players really well, just have the player make something up and incorporate that as being the truth.

[kieza]

If you have decent roleplayers, write a bare-bones note and have the player come up with an explanation. Alternately, if you know what knowledge checks you'll be calling for ahead of time, write detailed notes before the session.

[Xefas]

As an alternative version, that I only recommend if you know your players really well, just have the player make something up and incorporate that as being the truth.

I endorse this as well. This is how knowledge checks work in Donjon, and how Wises work in Burning Wheel, Burning Empires, and Mouse Guard. And several special abilities in Apocalypse World. Shock: Social Science Fiction is basically an entire game built on this mechanic.

Basically, if the player makes the check, they tell everyone what the answer is.

[Totally Guy]

Shock: Social Science Fiction is basically an entire game built on this mechanic.

InSpectres is this but one step further. If you roll well on a social skill you can say what that person told you!

[Xefas]

InSpectres is this but one step further. If you roll well on a social skill you can say what that person told you!

Oh balls, how could I forget InSpectres? Man, we need more games like that. Games where the GM's only job is to recline in his swivel chair, a jelly doughnut clasped in each hand, tilt his head slightly to the side such that he glares at you with only a single eye, and say "What do you think happens?"

[flumphy]

It may or may not take more preparation than you're used to, but I like to have a little blurb of information on everything important written up beforehand. It's more for my own uses in maintaining world consistency than player knowledge checks, but it can serve double duty.

Whenever someone makes a knowledge check, I just call them over and show them the relevant section on my laptop, copy-pasting into a new window to hide other sensitive information if need be. It's much faster than writing a note on the spot.

[dsmiles]

It may or may not take more preparation than you're used to, but I like to have a little blurb of information on everything important written up beforehand. It's more for my own uses in maintaining world consistency than player knowledge checks, but it can serve double duty.

Whenever someone makes a knowledge check, I just call them over and show them the relevant section on my laptop, copy-pasting into a new window to hide other sensitive information if need be. It's much faster than writing a note on the spot.

I fully endorse pulling the player aside and giving them the info. I don't use a laptop, but you get the point.

[valadil]

Like some GMs, I give the players handouts describing the setting. Unlike other GMs I don't give the players the same handout.

I learned long ago that the more info you give players the less likely they are to read it. Anything more than a page will get skimmed and you might as well not bother sending it to them. But if I have 5 pages of info, I can get the players to read it all if I distribute the task.

This has the added benefit that players own certain areas of knowledge. The rogue knows all the seedy bars. The noble knows highborn society. By the time the players need to make gather information checks, the right player already has the info, or at least the contacts, that everyone is looking for. Admittedly this method works better with things like local area knowledge than arcana or religion.

If you're a cruel and mischievous game master (and I know I am) you can also give out conflicting information in the different handouts.

[Totally Guy]

Like some GMs, I give the players handouts describing the setting. Unlike other GMs I don't give the players the same handout.

That sounds really neat.

I did something similar in my Elves vs. Dwarves game from a UK meet-up. When the elves interacted with the NPC dwarves I played them as drunken idiots. When the dwarves interacted with the NPC dwarves I played them as proud and efficient.

[Gamer Girl]

I try to avoid Knowledge checks. It's just ruins the fun of the game when a player with just one roll becomes an automatic expert of everything under the sun. I've had too many lazy knowledge check players in the past who, would just want to 'knowledge check' past whole game sections and just get to the combat(''We loot the trolls, and then I knowledge check and find out absurdly everything about the dungeon and then we go around the traps and such and get to the next combat encounter'')

(Though this is a bigger problem with skill points, as characters get too many. Far too many characters have like +30 in skill checks and then will never fail a roll and automatically know everything about everything.)

So I've made lots of changes to knowledge checks, like the big one: there are no 'vague you know everything about this topic' ones. So knowledge arcana is broken down in to hundreds of categories.

But most of all I simply work all the needed information into the adventure. Anything a character might need to know, is there. My players like this style, and most keep lots of notes....you never know when that song you heard at the tavern might have useful information.

[Heliomance]

I try to avoid Knowledge checks. It's just ruins the fun of the game when a player with just one roll becomes an automatic expert of everything under the sun. I've had too many lazy knowledge check players in the past who, would just want to 'knowledge check' past whole game sections and just get to the combat(''We loot the trolls, and then I knowledge check and find out absurdly everything about the dungeon and then we go around the traps and such and get to the next combat encounter'')

(Though this is a bigger problem with skill points, as characters get too many. Far too many characters have like +30 in skill checks and then will never fail a roll and automatically know everything about everything.)

Funny, I think exactly the opposite. I gave all the players 50% extra base skill points, I like skills and I don't think the standard rules give enough.

[Acanous]

I also think that certain classes don't give enough skill points (Fighter and Paladin should both get at least 4) but I rarely run into problems with Knowledge checks. Most often, my players use it as a pokedex, to allow them to use their out-of-game knowledge about trolls and such as soon as they see they're fighting one.
The only real problem I know of is high religeon and pazuzu.

Easy enough to counter, though.

[Dimers]

The only real problem I know of is high religeon and pazuzu. Easy enough to counter, though.

Easy indeed. It takes a DC 15000 check to know that there's actually a god in the pantheon called Uzuzap, whose portfolio is "Hurling thousands of untyped damage at anyone who says Pazuzu twice".

[magic9mushroom]

It turns out that the guy in our party with the high Knowledge checks is the guy who's read fifty or so rulebooks (well, besides me, but I'm GMing), so usually he already knows the thing he's rolling Knowledge for and can explain it.

He's also a good roleplayer.

[Bobby Archer]

It turns out that the guy in our party with the high Knowledge checks is the guy who's read fifty or so rulebooks (well, besides me, but I'm GMing), so usually he already knows the thing he's rolling Knowledge for and can explain it.

He's also a good roleplayer.

A similar thing's happening in an Exalted game I'm playing in. The two members of the circle with high intelligence, lore, and occult scores are the two players (myself and one other player) who have read most of the books and know all kinds of minutiae about the setting. Most rolls for this kind of knowledge basically end with the ST saying, "Yep, you know what this is," and leaving it to us to fill in/withhold information from the other characters.

[Captain Six]

From the player's side I always make sure to never repeat word for word what the DM tells me on a knowledge check. The DM will tell me granola info and my character flavors it with their personality. Probably with a minor assumption or additional, personal theory or two, then dropping any information they feel is 'unimportant'. The fact that the other players hear the DM and then hear how I spin it is a subtle but potent display of that character's personality.

[Eldariel]

Funny, I think exactly the opposite. I gave all the players 50% extra base skill points, I like skills and I don't think the standard rules give enough.

This is my experience as well. Our game experience enjoyment was multiplied when characters were given 6-8 extra skill points per level. It's just...the skill system has all sorts of fun stuff but you can't do anything with it by default. Adding a ton really helps.

GamerGirl's problem sounds to more be about how high you can peak skills than how many skills you can learn, which can be a problem. Though mind, K: Whatever 30 does nothing about this particular dungeon that's very likely unmapped and unknown. It does, however, let you know in-character what a given creature is. Which helps a ton: It removes incidental metagaming from the equation and allows party to figure out monsters' weaknesses to not just get curbstomped by a simple Hydra.