Results 301 to 330 of 361
-
2011-09-01, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
That's pretty much what I'm saying. List that in the OP as 'guidelines'.
Furthermore, since judges are different every time, if there are certain things which will actually get your build to score higher, then it is not because of one or two guys, but because it overall presents a better picture.
Do the contest requirements for an engineering competition include asthetics requirements? Generally, no. However, something that looks sleeker or at least more 'finished' will almost certainly score better than something that looks skeletal, but functional.
I'm amassing a list of things that must be kept in mind to have any chance of doing well in this, and none are in the OP, and none have ever been stated before the entry deadline. Every time this runs, I'm going to post them as soon as is possible, because it is frankly unfair on new contestants to have them go in with no idea about what is required of them.Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2011-09-01 at 04:58 PM.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
-
2011-09-01, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Points are *heavily* docked for taking less than 3 levels in a class, regardless of why or which class.
Everything that works in combination must be explained, regardless of whether it is already listed.
Using obscure sources will be docked quite frequently, and using more than one setting in your sources will be docked heavily.
Power is not marked consistently, some judges mark power based on how well a build does compared to other builds with similar objectives, and some mark based on a general scale of power. As such, building for Power primarily will not net you spectacular scores, since many will compare you to the perfect version of whatever you did.
I'm reading through older threads now, and I'm probably going to be adding a few more.
-
2011-09-01, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Reading the judges criteria will help you here.
Power is not marked consistently, some judges mark power based on how well a build does compared to other builds with similar objectives, and some mark based on a general scale of power. As such, building for Power primarily will not net you spectacular scores, since many will compare you to the perfect version of whatever you did.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
-
2011-09-01, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
And how many judges have posted criteria over the past few contests? Not many, and the ones that did were very much different. (For example, the *only* criteria posted in the dervish contest said no points docked for dips that fit the theme. And I don't even think he judged in the end.)
Saying 'you can just read the criteria' is meaningless when the large majority of judges do not post criteria.
-
2011-09-01, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
We can certainly give general guidelines on what's expected but the judging guidelines vary between judges, often greatly, and sometimes between contests judges participate in, so making any complete list is likely a fool's errand. If the judges had a unified rubric, it may be a different story, but it takes a lot of time and effort to read through entries and grade them fairly and evenly between entries. We should thank the judges for putting aside the time they do so this contest to run. IC shouldn't be contestants vs. judges and it's kinda going that direction these last 2 contests. Not a good trend in my opinion.
-
2011-09-01, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
That doesn't change that there are some *very* clear things that are *always* marked down, and they are rarely mentioned as something to avoid. I'm trying to put together the stuff that people who want to join the contest can actually do so without spending multiple contests learning that judges always hate some things, aren't going to mark consistently on certain things, and then finally after about 3-4 events figuring out what they actually need to do to stand a chance. Because right now, this is the least new-person friendly event on the board, and I used to run the NED, which regularly kills even experienced players.
And if you don't want things to be turning into competitors vs judges, we need to not have judges posting things like this, then getting offended when people challenge them on their complaints.
-
2011-09-01, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
I know there are some advantages to judges presenting Criteria, but honestly ... I think the lack of strictness on this rule is part of why we had so many (punctual) judges this round. I probably wouldn't have judged if I had to write formal Criteria, for example, especially if I had to do so before the entries' deadline.
Also, when I've entered Iron Chef as a contestant in the past, I honestly didn't read the Criteria very carefully ... I just made the character I wanted to make. Sometimes this got me good scores, sometimes it got me lousy scores ... but that probably would have been true if I'd read the Criteria, anyway.
I like it. But I also approve of continuing to emphasize that only factual, non-subjective arguments should be made to challenge judges.
I like to think that generally, bystanders (including other judges) would jump into this situation and continue to advocate that various objections get the attention/corrections they deserve.You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
-
2011-09-01, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
-
2011-09-01, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Yep. And how many others have we had over the past several contests?
I don't mind that judges aren't required to post criteria, but when there's some things that are universally punished, or not rewarded, contest after contest after contest, we need to give any new contestants some warning of that.
-
2011-09-01, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Re: disputes: à la Sous-Chef, just allow people to volunteer for being dispute judges instead of full-on judges; there are always some who'd like to judge but don't quite feel like tackling this particular Special Ingredient, or don't think they'll have enough time, or whatever. Judging only disputes takes a fraction of the time and each dispute judge can just go yay/nay on any particular issue. Majority wins, no appeals, and we just need to agree once and for all on what happens if they're evenly matched. You only need between one and, say, 3 anyway.
-
2011-09-01, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
W.R.T factual disputes, a vote is not a solution. That's like claiming you can vote on whether the sky is blue. If a build works, it works, and it should be marked as such even if a judge disagrees.
I personally agree with taking it to the RAW thread as an independent party.
-
2011-09-01, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Clockwork Nirvana
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
SpoilerOur experiences are vastly different then: every one I did required a paper to be submitted with it documenting the experiment and background.
Again, vastly different experiences: I didn't do much math beyond Linear Algebra, but in every programming class I ever took the ideal code for presentation was well commented with explanations.
Edit: This seems to be a semantics issue on my part: I wasn't presuming you meant a formal verbal defense. I'm not saying people should talk to the panel, so to speak. I'm saying that the paper should include references if, for example, it uses accepted proofs that aren't assumed to be part of everyone's general reference.Last edited by Hecuba; 2011-09-01 at 07:12 PM.
-
2011-09-01, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
References being a note that X is to be found here. Which were included. I gave sources for the things used. What I didn't do is give a walkthrough of the trick I used, and apparently that is my omission, and the judge is not required to be sure he understands the build to judge it.
For reference, my char had an ability, Healing Hymn, which was in the build's level progression, and in the source list. It's only purpose is to increase the amount healing spells do.
Apparently, not mentioning that I am using the ability I have that only increases the effectiveness of healing spells to increase the effectiveness of my healing spells is an omission on my part and it is my fault that that was not understood.
-
2011-09-01, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
-
2011-09-01, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
So you judge builds without accounting for their abilities? Kind of iffy.
-
2011-09-01, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
I don't think we should expect every judge to be a mechanical expert in the system rules and pick apart every nuance of a build. Plus, we're only human, we make mistakes. It is the contestant's job to explain their build that showcases what it can do and how well it uses the secret ingredient. If you don't mention how you use your tools, do you expect the judges to know how they're used? The judge's job is to give ratings in the four criteria areas as their judgement calls for. There's a certain bit of metaknowledge that comes with being a frequent contestant and if we can pass that knowledge on to new contestants to entice them to enter, we should do such a thing. And we have done so in the past by providing the build skeleton for those of us who are less table savvy so its easier for the judges to provide an accurate and timely judging. IC is suffering growing pains, it's to be sure, so if we can improve the intro for those who both haven't entered previously as well as seasoned veterans, we will all benefit for it.
-
2011-09-01, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Ability X is listed in build.
Ability X does precisely one thing.
Is it really so hard to assume that Ability X is used for that one thing? I see no explanation of how Leap attack is used to increase damage. Was it taken account of? Certainly.
EDIT: I'll be clear. There is precisely one way that he didn't account for it: He didn't even look it up. He never saw the ability and didn't check what it did. This is indeed a mistake, and I find it offensive that someone who has not even noticed an ability, or hasn't paid attention to it if he did, can claim that that is *anyone's* fault but his own. If you screw up, you should take the blame, rather than immediately trying to pass the buck.Last edited by term1nally s1ck; 2011-09-01 at 07:55 PM.
-
2011-09-01, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
The only place it was mentioned was in the middle of a table somewhere, and quite easy to overlook. Mentioning it briefly in your healing calculation would have made it more clear.
For example "She can heal for ~32.5 damage per person per round with a cure light wounds spell!" you could say "Healing is 1d8+5 for a CLW + 20 from Healing Hymn for a total of 1d8+25".
By doing so, it prevents people from assuming that you forgot about the silly little limitation of effective class level on healing, since it comes out to the exact same number.
Presentation... it's a good thing. When was the last time you saw a dish on Iron Chef that was poorly presented get even a passable rating from the judges? Or on ANY of the multitude of reality shows which do similar things. Or ANY contest in general?SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
-
2011-09-01, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
No, it doesn't. It's actually 7 off from what the CL would be at every stage that was mentioned. And again, you are basically saying 'I am not responsible for taking account of parts of your build that you do not immediately highlight'.
If an iron chef dish includes a spice or seasoning that improves the dish, they do not have to highlight it in the presentation for it to be counted.
-
2011-09-01, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by averagejoe; 2011-09-02 at 01:13 PM.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
-
2011-09-01, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by averagejoe; 2011-09-02 at 01:15 PM.
-
2011-09-01, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Please stop, gentlemen. This is devolving from discussion of how to make ICO more accessible into personal attacks. Shneekey and term1nally, please either agree to a stalemate or take it to the PMs.
-
2011-09-01, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
This man is a herald of truth, apart from what, at this point, I would consider a stretch of the word "gentlemen". This has gotten completely out of hand. Fortunately, Shneeky doesn't want to continue this any farther than it has already gone.
And frankly, you're both wrong.
Shneeky, taking another look at Mother Teresa, there's one passage that sticks out.
Originally Posted by Mother Teresa
term1nally s1ck, while I agree with the requirement of criteria, you are taking this round incredibly personally. You seem to want to take Shneeky's perceived high horse as an excuse to persecute him exclusively for something that you complain all judges are doing. If you could send me that list of yours written in as unbiased language as possible, I would love to have a look at it. Until then, I stand by Shneeky in saying that even with Healing Hymn (the main mistake you seem to keep harping on), Mother Teresa just was not terribly impressive.
If either of you have anything to argue about with either of those assessments, PM me about it. But do not bog this thread down anymore, because even if I can't use the official red text, I can contact someone who can.
And with that, I'd like to try to piece my mind back together from the Truenamer and the Arcane Archer taking the top two spots. Really impressive work, you two.
Remember to PM me with any SI suggestions you might have.Quotebox
-
2011-09-01, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
To clarify (especially for the other judges), the only judging I had issue with was Shneeky's attempt at being the mechanical critic, and I've no intent to pursue things with him. I feel like everyone else's was well done, and relatively consistent between entries, and I have absolutely no complaints on that front, nor with my placing, given what I learned this round about how people judge power in different circumstances. The judging on a whole was superb.
My other point was that I do not feel like any new contestant has the knowledge he needs to participate fairly. I'll PM you the list of things I feel like every contestant should know in advance as soon as I get through the most recent half a dozen or so contests, to make sure all of them are consistent trends.Last edited by term1nally s1ck; 2011-09-01 at 11:14 PM.
-
2011-09-01, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
-
2011-09-01, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Power is basically impossible to do that for. The criteria vary wildly between judges. Not too surprising, given how difficult it is to determine whether a character is powerful, and how much good tactics change how effective a char is.
The rest? Pretty easy. Would that be preferable to a string of general guidelines? And I can find a few things to say about the different ways that judges decide on Power.
-
2011-09-02, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
I'd have to dispute that building for power is universally bad. My Bloodstained Hurricane in the Dervish competition last month was pretty much built on sheer power alone, with all the originality of a PB&J and a dash of spicy flavor added on. Since it came just a whisker from first place, I think that its definitely a viable way to build.
The only thing that irks me on judging is the tendency for people to dock dips instead of multiclassing penalties, or in some cases wildly more painfully than multiclass penalties. Part of this is because dips beget dips in a contest like this, where you usually only have 10 "free" levels at all to begin with, so the penalties can get pretty steep for something that isn't mechanically disadvantaged. I feel like in most optimized fields of play taking an assortment of dips to build a character isn't really a bad idea if you can keep MC penalties under control, and that it creates a strange divide between "reality" and "perception" as strange as those terms might seem referencing something like this.
I'm not sore or anything, and ultimately it's up to the judges who spend their time on it, but it just seems a little bit weird to me. I get the sense that some judges dock points for it just because it's perceived as something that they're supposed to do, while something so un-mechanical in nature should really be the call of the individual judge if anything.
-
2011-09-02, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- Suburban Dystopia
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Sure they do. We have HOW many examples of winners and low scorers to read up on? Just browse the past competitions and read the judge comments on the highest and lowest scores. You can even find out who the repeat judges are before you make your build and see what they like and don't like.
That's what I did, anyway. My first Iron Chef was 14 (seeker of the song) and I took 1st place..
Ding, You've Got Trophies!Spoiler
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens
Oh, and DFTBA.
-
2011-09-02, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Terra Australis
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Just my 2 coppers here - the only thing that sometimes vexes me in judging is the subjectiveness of docking someone for "obscure sources". For some, anything that isn't core + Completes is obscure. Some include the environment series in "non-obscure". Few if any would dock for ToB being obscure, yet in the grand scheme of things, it really is no less obscure than Planar Handbook, IMHO. For myself, I would classify "online only" material as fairly obscure, yet others see it differently: if it is an online article, everyone has access to it, ergo it cannot be called obscure.
...I guess my point is, I personally find docking for obscurity a little pointless, when "obscurity" in this case is such a massively subjective term. If something falls withing the guidelines of accepted sources set out in the rules of the comp, what purpose does rating "obscurity" really serve?My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
-
2011-09-02, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
I support the newbie guide--I'll look over my info from all past rounds to help determine consistent scoring trends. While some, like prime and myself can sit down and read all threads, it shouldn't be required for ICO success.
On the topic of dipping, it's something that varies widely from judge to judge, but has been docked consistently. I know someone could actually get hit thrice by me if they 1) take an expected entry class 2) for less than 3 levels 3) resulting in MC penalties. I admit that's harsh; perhaps we should have a hard and fast rule on dipping, or at least revise our individual stances?