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    Default LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    The Earth Giant

    The Earth Giant race is a group of giants who were long ago bound by the gnome illusionists, and they lost their power as hulking behemoths. Even though they are nowhere near as powerful as their sand and hill giant brethren, earth giants are more adaptable and interested in adventuring.

    Religion: Earth Giants tend to worship deities of the soil. Clerics of earth giants aren't picky, but they generally lean towards a deity who offers the Earth Domain.

    Alignment: The subjugation of their people and subsequent torture and shackling has led to a slave mindset among many of the earth giants. They tend to be lawful evil, though lawful good is not exactly rare. Earth Giants are very rarely neutral, as they lack enough of a sense of "self" to be self-focused as the neutral alignment is.


    Earth Giants as Characters:

    -2 Int, -2 Cha Earth giants may have lost their strength, but they gained nothing for it in return. They are as stupid and stubborn as their giant brethren.

    Large Size: As a Large size race, earth giants take a -1 size penalty on attack rolls and AC, and a -4 size penalty on Hide checks, but receive a +4 size bonus on opposed combat checks and can use larger weapons and carry more weight than Medium creatures.

    Speed: 30 ft

    Giant: An earth giant's type is Giant. It does not have the Earth subtype. As a giant, the earth giant is not subject to spells or effects that specifically target humanoids.

    Illiteracy: An earth giant's mind has been so warped by the power of illusion that it is unable to read words. All earth giants can never learn to read properly, regardless of their class. (Unlike the barbarian, Neanderthal, and totemist illiteracy, an earth giant may not spend skill points to overcome this racial trait. It is not a result of their stupidity, but of supernatural causes and evolution)

    The earth giant's illiteracy grants a few penalties. The earth giant may never trigger the explosive runes spell, though he may be caught in the blast. The comprehend languages spell allows him to understand all spoken language as usual, but does not allow him to read. The read magic spell has no effect on him. The earth giant may never cast spells from a spellbook as an archivist, a wizard, wu jen, or a death mage, though he may take levels in the class anyway. He may not scribe or use scrolls. He may not take ranks in the Decipher Script or Forgery skills.

    Weakened Will: The earth giant has been exposed to so many illusions that his mind is completely open to them now. An earth giant automatically fails saving throws allowed versus a spell if the saving throw is Will (Disbelief). If the spell is of the illusion school and offers a saving throw that is not Will (Disbelief), the earth giant still takes a -4 penalty on that saving throw.

    Subservient: The earth giant has grown up in a life of slavery and bondage. Even if he escapes that hell, it is difficult for him to break out of the slave mindset. Gnomes who interact with the earth giant receive a +2 bonus to Bluff, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks against the earth giant, and ignore size penalties for Intimidate checks made against earth giants.

    Racial Emnity: An earth giant receives a +4 racial dodge bonus to his AC against attacks made by gnomes. Dodge bonuses from different sources stack, and are lost when the creature is helpless. Additionally, an earth giant receives a +4 bonus on all grapple-related checks made against gnomes.

    Suppressed Power: Though an earth giant's power has been chained within him, it shows itself when he is exposed to any sort of growth. Whenever the earth giant would receive a size bonus to his Strength score, or a bonus to his Strength score from the 4HD level advancement, that bonus is doubled. (In the case of temporary size increases, this extra bonus lasts for the duration of the temporary effect)

    Automatic Languages: Common and Giant

    Bonus Languages: Gnome, Orc, Goblin, Dwarven and Infernal

    Favored Class: Cleric
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-07 at 02:29 AM.

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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    I think this might be an LA -1 race.

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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    Yeah..

    That's an awful lot of penalties for large size, giant type, and being able to dodge and grapple gnomes better.
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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    I would give it a -2, honestly.
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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    Pray to the gods that you don't run into Gnomes as this.

    Even so much as a particularly charismatic Gnome commoner could bring an Earth Giant to his knees.
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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    Pardon my question that is completely unrelated, but is there precedent for -X or -Y (-1 or -2) Level Adjustments? Or is this a joke, in reference to the fact that the race sucks so much, that he needs to improve it?

    If there is a such think as negative Level Adjustments, what are the rules in their regard?

    Thank you in advance.
    Last edited by Alaris; 2011-08-12 at 06:57 PM.
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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Pardon my question that is completely unrelated, but is there precedent for -X or -Y (-1 or -2) Level Adjustments? Or is this a joke, in reference to the fact that the race sucks so much, that he needs to improve it?

    If there is a such think as negative Level Adjustments, what are the rules in their regard?

    Thank you in advance.
    I think Pathfinder has negative CR templates. Like Young.
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    I'd point out that Reach is perhaps worth just one feat. Any warrior-type at first level could have a reach weapon and be able to attack adjacent targets. At most it is a little better than a feat. Also, there are first level spells that give reach. In a way, the Giant type helps balance out the reach, since you can't cast Enlarge Person on a giant. There really aren't that many person-focused spells and the giant type doesn't have any special immunities.

    Large does let you get a BIT more damage out of weapons, but you get a -1 penalty to hit and a -1 penalty to AC which isn't fun -- small is considered kind of nice for the bonus to hit and AC, remember.

    Keep all of that in mind. I think you are overvaluing these items.

    I think no stat mods, no penalties, Large Size, and Giant Type would be closer to balanced. It would probably need some buffing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Pardon my question that is completely unrelated, but is there precedent for -X or -Y (-1 or -2) Level Adjustments? Or is this a joke, in reference to the fact that the race sucks so much, that he needs to improve it?
    I was just making a joke.
    Last edited by Drachasor; 2011-08-12 at 07:03 PM.

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    Edit: I reread the SRD carefully and found a few giant races without an Intelligence penalty. However, that still does not fit the fluff of this race (A group of savages who were already stupid and then got mindraped). The Intelligence and Charisma penalties are needed, and they help balance the race.

    I think you're undervaluing Large size quite a bit. For LA 0, this race gets 10 ft reach, +4 on all opposed Strength checks, the ability to grapple and trip Huge creatures, immunity to Trample effects of Medium creatures (so basically, other player races who took Totemist or otherwise got the Trample ability), immunity to the Improved Grab and Swallow Whole abilities of creatures smaller than Huge, immunity to Trip and Grapple from Small creatures, and double average damage on a normal THF (Med Greataxe average damage 5-6, Large Greataxe average 9-12).

    They also get access to the Hulking Hurler prestige class, and psychic warriors who manifest expansion can go up to Gargantuan instead of Huge. Additionally, abilities like Monkey Grip or Powerful Build, if you can get them, allow you to use Huge weapons instead. That's even more damage.

    Powerful Build is often considered just cause for LA +1 by itself. Actual Large size is even more powerful.

    That said, how would you all suggest I balance it?
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-08-12 at 07:34 PM.

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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Pardon my question that is completely unrelated, but is there precedent for -X or -Y (-1 or -2) Level Adjustments? Or is this a joke, in reference to the fact that the race sucks so much, that he needs to improve it?

    If there is a such think as negative Level Adjustments, what are the rules in their regard?

    Thank you in advance.
    Actually, yes. The Xvart, from Dragon 339 (I think), has a -2 Level Adjustment. However, there were no rules presented to explain how this works.

    This is secondhand knowledge on my part and any or all of it may be incorrect.



    On topic, I love the idea of a +0 LA Large sized creature, and I agree that it would need some hefty penalties to counterbalance the inherent bonuses. I'm afraid that I don't really like the idea of this thing being so utterly horrible against gnomes, or the fact that they can (effectively) never become a wizard, though. I don't really have much in the way of suggestions, but I felt the need to comment on your creation if I was to post in this thread.

    A small Str penalty might not be out of line? It would reduce the effectiveness of the melee types who so covet Large size. After all, Strength is relative; a Large slave with 8 Str is much, much stronger than his Small master with 10 Str. I know it would make me think twice, but it wouldn't turn me off of the idea, unlike the weakness to gnomes.

    Also, cloud giants have +2 Int, fire giants have +0 Int, frost giants have +0 Int, stone giants have +0 Int, and storm giants have +6 Int.
    Last edited by Lyndworm; 2011-08-12 at 07:42 PM.
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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    The earth giant's illiteracy grants a few penalties. The earth giant may never trigger the explosive runes spell, though he may be caught in the blast.
    I'm not sure this is really a 'penalty'. It sounds like an advantage to me; they can be used by gnome mages as guards in conjunction with rune-based magical defenses without worrying about one of them making a stupid mistake.

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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    This is secondhand knowledge on my part and any or all of it may be incorrect.



    On topic, I love the idea of a +0 LA Large sized creature, and I agree that it would need some hefty penalties to counterbalance the inherent bonuses. I'm afraid that I don't really like the idea of this thing being so utterly horrible against gnomes, or the fact that they can (effectively) never become a wizard, though. I don't really have much in the way of suggestions, but I felt the need to comment on your creation if I was to post in this thread.

    A small Str penalty might not be out of line? It would reduce the effectiveness of the melee types who so covet Large size. After all, Strength is relative; a Large slave with 8 Str is much, much stronger than his Small master with 10 Str. I know it would make me think twice, but it wouldn't turn me off of the idea, unlike the weakness to gnomes.

    Also, cloud giants have +2 Int, fire giants have +0 Int, frost giants have +0 Int, stone giants have +0 Int, and storm giants have +6 Int.
    I don't agree with giving wizards large size right off the bat. This was intentional, to prevent gish abuse as best as possible. (It's still possible for a sorcerer or a duskblade, but the stat penalties help offset a duskblade, and the sorcerer's inability to use scrolls makes him rely on his spells known even more)

    I know that clericzillas will still be able to use this race to the fullest, but I'm alright with that. I stopped archivists and druids don't really gain anything, so 3/4 isn't too bad.

    The Strength penalty comes from having 0 bonus to Strength. Remember that stat modifiers are all relative to humans. Dwarves are stockier than humans, elves are quicker, goliaths are stronger. The earth giant is still as powerful as a human, just not nearly as powerful as a giant. (Ogres get +10 Str, Sand giants get +16, etc)

    Also, I swordsaged your last point there.

    Edit:

    Immunity to explosive runes isn't a penalty
    Of course it's not. That is the single benefit of the illiteracy feature. I just grouped it under the penalties section because I didn't think a single benefit merited "a few penalties as well as bonuses"
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-08-12 at 07:48 PM.

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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    I suck at balancing, but I'll try!


    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    [SIZE="4"]
    Earth Giants as Characters:

    -4 Int, -2 Cha Earth giants may have lost their strength, but they gained nothing for it in return. They are as stupid and stubborn as their giant brethren.
    Ouch. I don't think I've ever seen two negatives in a race before. I suppose it does make sense, considering the power of a larger size.

    Large Size: As a Large size race, earth giants take a -1 size penalty on attack rolls and AC, and a -4 size penalty on Hide checks, but receive a +4 size bonus on opposed combat checks and can use larger weapons and carry more weight than Medium creatures.
    The main purpose of this, I suppose.

    Giant: An earth giant's type is Giant. It does not have the Earth subtype. As a giant, the earth giant is not subject to spells or effects that specifically target humanoids.
    Immunity to "person" spells. That's a good thing/bad thing though.

    Illiteracy: An earth giant's mind has been so warped by the power of illusion that it is unable to read words. All earth giants are dyslexic and can never learn to read properly, regardless of their class. (Unlike the barbarian, Neanderthal, and totemist illiteracy, an earth giant may not spend skill points to overcome this racial trait. It is not a result of their stupidity, but of supernatural causes and evolution)

    The earth giant's illiteracy grants a few penalties. The earth giant may never trigger the explosive runes spell, though he may be caught in the blast. The comprehend languages spell allows him to understand all spoken language as usual, but does not allow him to read. The read magic spell has no effect on him. The earth giant may never cast spells from a spellbook as an archivist, a wizard, or a death mage, though he may take levels in the class anyway. He may not scribe or use scrolls. He may not take ranks in the Decipher Script skill.
    I see nothing really wrong with this, I guess.

    Weakened Will: The earth giant has been exposed to so many illusions that his mind is completely open to them now. An earth giant automatically fails saving throws allowed versus a spell if the saving throw is Will (Disbelief). If the spell is of the illusion school and offers a saving throw that is not Will (Disbelief), the earth giant still takes a -4 penalty on that saving throw.
    Ouch. Autofail? That seems kind of harsh.

    Subservient: The earth giant has grown up in a world of slavery, and even if he escapes, it is very difficult to throw off his bonds. Whenever a gnome tells the earth giant to do something in an authoritative way, the earth giant acts as if he is under the effect of a dominate monster spell, and given a saving throw to resist. (DC = 10 - 1/2 the earth giant's character level + the gnome's Charisma modifier) The earth giant receives a +4 bonus to this saving throw if the gnome is ordering him to do something that is very out-of-character for him to do, or that threatens his own life.

    The earth giant gains a special modifier to this saving throw based on his alignment.

    Lawful: -10 penalty
    Chaotic: +2 bonus
    Neutral (LCN axis only): -2 penalty
    An.. interesting penalty. One that could suck alot if the DM decides to throw some Gnomes at you. Or a Gnome Sorcerer. Or Bard. Or An Illusionist.

    Racial Emnity: An earth giant receives a +4 racial dodge bonus to his AC against attacks made by gnomes. Dodge bonuses from different sources stack, and are lost when the creature is helpless. Additionally, an earth giant receives a +4 bonus on all grapple-related checks made against gnomes.
    Ok. The inverse of the Gnome's Racial Enmity.
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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    I don't agree with giving wizards large size right off the bat. This was intentional, to prevent gish abuse as best as possible. (It's still possible for a sorcerer or a duskblade, but the stat penalties help offset a duskblade, and the sorcerer's inability to use scrolls makes him rely on his spells known even more)
    You have a good reason for not wanting the earth giant to be a wizard and I respect that. It's just that something about a physical inability to takeuse a level in a base class built into the race irks me. I realize it's not entirely rational, so I'll not bring it up again.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    The Strength penalty comes from having 0 bonus to Strength. Remember that stat modifiers are all relative to humans. Dwarves are stockier than humans, elves are quicker, goliaths are stronger. The earth giant is still as powerful as a human, just not nearly as powerful as a giant. (Ogres get +10 Str, Sand giants get +16, etc)
    By relative, I meant relative between sizes, not one another. If these guys were slaves than they weren't meant to be fighting so a -1 to hit and damage doesn't make a difference to the gnomes. However, a difference in carrying capacity does make a difference. A Heavy Load for a typical gnome is 40lbs; a Heavy Load for an earth giant is 400lbs. Lessening that to 160lbs would still make them a bit stronger than the average human, much stronger than the average gnome, and a worse choice for optimizers. That's all I was trying to express, though I did so poorly.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Also, I swordsaged your last point there.
    Indeed you did. Curse my clumsy fingers! It takes so long to type anything sensible that my post is usually half irrelevant by the time the intarwub spits it out.
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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    • Chameleon Base Class [3.5]/[PF]: A versatile, morphic class that mimics one basic party role (warrior, caster, sneak, etc) at a time. If you find yourself getting bored of any class you play too long, the Chameleon is for you!
    • Warlock Power Sources [3.5]: Making Hellfire Warlock part of the base class and providing other similar options for Warlocks whose powers don't come from devils.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    By relative, I meant relative between sizes, not one another. If these guys were slaves than they weren't meant to be fighting so a -1 to hit and damage doesn't make a difference to the gnomes. However, a difference in carrying capacity does make a difference. A Heavy Load for a typical gnome is 40lbs; a Heavy Load for an earth giant is 400lbs. Lessening that to 160lbs would still make them a bit stronger than the average human, much stronger than the average gnome, and a worse choice for optimizers. That's all I was trying to express, though I did so poorly.
    But these giants were originally normal giants. It would already have taken some really powerful magic to get a hill giant or an ogre's Strength down to 10, but down to 8 is even harder. Besides, with the Int and Cha penalty, a Str penalty would just make it unplayable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMArthur View Post
    You'd have to fail the second saving throw, which, while granting a -4 penalty, is a Fortitude save (And also a level 4 spell, so that's a lower DC than slay living or disintegrate. Every point counts). In my opinion, it actually makes the slay rogue spell a little more useful.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-08-12 at 08:10 PM.

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    Hmm... Well I think it reaches LA0 quite well, but it definitely leans towards negative more than other races.
    But... My problem is, is that all is it really gives is size. I mean, I wouldn't take this class unless I specifically had a character "that just had to be a giant" and I wasn't allowed a level adjustment.
    I think your overvaluing size too much. Though it does grant more benefits than penalties, it barely, in my opinion, warrants a +1 LA if you have nothing to balance it. I would say that unless you take subservient away, you need to grant another minor bonus of some sort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMArthur View Post
    Would it make a gnome whos a former slave owner see SMART strong earth giants?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    Hmm... Well I think it reaches LA0 quite well, but it definitely leans towards negative more than other races.
    But... My problem is, is that all is it really gives is size. I mean, I wouldn't take this class unless I specifically had a character "that just had to be a giant" and I wasn't allowed a level adjustment.
    I think your overvaluing size too much. Though it does grant more benefits than penalties, it barely, in my opinion, warrants a +1 LA if you have nothing to balance it. I would say that unless you take subservient away, you need to grant another minor bonus of some sort.
    Hmm...I thought Subservient was too situational to be considered a real detriment, it was more for flavor than anything else...but alright. Let's see if I can redo it to make it less mechanically game-breaking.

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    My problem with subservient is if you have a gnome in the party. I can only imagine how a player might abuse this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    My problem with subservient is if you have a gnome in the party. I can only imagine how a player might abuse this.
    Alright, edited. What do you think now?

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    I like the new rule. This is definitely something I could see playing, even though I tend to go for brainy characters. Good job.
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    Much better. It definitely bumps the power back up to the level of the other races. Truthfully it really wouldn't have been a problem if the ability score penalties hadn't been so high.

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    Again, I wanted to make this a race for melee characters, not a gish machine. It makes grapple more viable (slightly), and also has some nice racial fluff.

    Personally, I think that a Large size warrior who trades immunity to low level enchantment (Charm Person, Dominate Person) for a weakness to illusions is a fair trade. I could see it being very abusable by a psychic warrior or a cleric.

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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    Added Suppressed Power to make the late game earth giant a melee monster.

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    Pretty cool, but now your on the rocks of raising the level adjustment to 1. It doesn't quite make it to that point though.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2011-08-12 at 08:46 PM.

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    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    It's not obviously better than a Human, so I'd say it's still LA +0. I like the ability a lot.
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    Do you think you could ease up on the intelligence penalty, bringing it to just a -2? As it is now, the mental stat penalties are just... so brutal. Obviously it's not a race for wizards, but they should at least be entitled to a few skill points. I can only speak for my current group, but honestly my players wouldn't even consider playing one based on the penalties alone. A total of a -6 appears crippling, even if there are a bunch of racial features to back it up.
    Witch Razor Blood Sage
    (Links both lead to ToB disciplines I made!)

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    My skills exceed yours!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LA 0 Giant Race (PEACH)

    I suppose since I basically nuked the ability to be an Int based caster (save duskblade and beguiler) I can lower the Int penalty.

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