Need help with class idea

[Daverin]

Hey all!

I've been thinking for a while now that I want to make a character based on the concept of someone who is pretty much, well, unstoppable. Some of my favorite characters in fiction and fantasy are characters who seem to just never go down, while diving headlong into the thick of battle. Some of such characters are Juggernaut from Marvel comics, Alistar from League of Legends, Airman Higgs from the Girl Genius webcomics, and Zaraki Kenpachi from Bleach. Overall, Juggernaut's name pretty much nails it on the head in and of itself.

The thing is though, I'm looking for a specific type of juggernaut, one that each of the characters above has a fair vein of: a very physical character, who has little in the ways of any "supernatural" or magical powers (ironically, this does not mean in anyway that they cannot be powered by the supernatural; indeed, at least 2 of the four, Juggernaut and Kenpachi, have supernatural origins for their power, and well, Higgs' full story is not even close to coming out yet. It simply means the actions they take tend to be physical in nature.) Also, the character is either not very "skilled" (in the sense of some mastery of a form of martial arts, applying the term broadly) or does not display such skill, for whatever reason. Yet, despite this, the character is nigh impossible to defeat, taking blows that simply should be impossible to resist, and is generally incredibly strong, to the point that the feats that it can perform easily hit extraordinary; for example, it would not be hard, at all, for Juggernaut to perform what would be battefield control in DnD by causing ruptures in the ground and disorganizing the enemy. Also, they are all notably very capable of closing distances fast, both usually part of their physical prowess, and partly because they seem predisposed towards actions that involve being hard to stop.

However, I cannot really think of a class that truly emphasizes this. Perhaps the closest would simply be the fighter, who specialized in any feat that would involve movement and defense. But, of course, the fighter is generally considered a suboptimal class, both in design and execution, and I am heavily inclined to agree. The best source for such ideas, then, is usually the ToB (if you are a fan of it, which I am,) but I feel like none of the disciplines allow any of the classes to really do this correctly. The most natural choice, the crusader, certainly can get down the hard to kill part; but, as described above, I want moves that sort of imply this character's phenomenal strength and ability to warp a battlefield; the crusader, sadly, relies more on "mental" battlefield control, using the power of threatening, taunting, and countering to be the excellent tank it is.

So, what I need help with is a class, preferably tier 3 or above (or, rather, with the versatility of tier 1, if at all possible. Not able to break the game, but with something close to the degree of versatility.) The main focuses will be tanking, soaking damage, and controlling the battlefield with incredible mobility and terrain alteration, as well as abilities that emphasize durability and strength. I think I would like the character to emphasize either unarmed combat or blunt weaponry, but that is not too big an issue (although if weapons are involved, the bigger the better! ) I imagine this would be easier if I involve maneuvers, likely from homebrewed disciplines.

As you can see, I have some ideas, but I don't feel I have enough to make a class, especially considering I want something with options and customization available. So, for any experienced homebrewers who can advise me, and just anyone with an idea, please chip in! I'll appreciate any help I can receive, AND this way I can finally gets some hands on experience with how to balance classes (I've homebrewed before, but I have no idea if the numbers were correct, for example.)

[sonofzeal]

Warblades and Crusaders are great for this if they focus on Counters instead of Strikes. Many Warblade maneuvers help them shrug off attacks, Iron Heart Surge being the prime example, but Diamond Mind lets them replace saves with Concentration Checks, and there's plenty of others. Crusader class features are designed around tanking as well, and much of Devoted Spirit lets them heal or resist hit point damage.

Basically, ToB maneuver selection is totally flexible enough to let you pull off what you're going for. Just pick strategically and ignore options outside of your scope.

[Daverin]

As I said above, I've definitely looked at them, and while they fill alot of areas well, I want a character who does control through altering the field, not through counters.

Of course, if anyone knew of a homebrew discipline that does something like that, then... well, that would finish this up pretty quickly, now wouldn't it?

[sonofzeal]

As I said above, I've definitely looked at them, and while they fill alot of areas well, I want a character who does control through altering the field, not through counters.

Of course, if anyone knew of a homebrew discipline that does something like that, then... well, that would finish this up pretty quickly, now wouldn't it?

Ah, I was thinking about using the Counters more for the "Tank" part of the thing.

For BC, why not Deepstone Sentinal? That PrC is pretty much entirely about ripping up chunks of earth to change the battlefield.

[Daverin]

Oh? I've heard of it, but I've not actually seen it yet. Races of Stone, correct?

[NeoSeraphi]

Soaking damage involves DR, fast healing, d12 hit dice, a ridiculous Con score, an incredible Fort save, the mettle ability, regeneration, etc. I made a similar class called the Brawler (link in my sig, marked as "Unarmed").

Suggested abilities for your class:

A Power Attack like ability that goes like this: "When the Juggernaut attacks, he may take a penalty on all attack rolls he makes this round, up to his Base Attack Bonus. If he does this, he gains damage reduction equal to the penalty until the beginning of his next turn. This damage reduction is not overcome by any material or alignment."

Regeneration that is overcome by all magical energy types, but not magic weapons. The healing can be up to his Constitution modifier in nonlethal damage per round.

Fast Healing equal to half his character level, max 10 at 20th level.

Full Fortitude saving throw progression, as well as the mettle feature and immunity to stunning, critical hits, sneak attack and dazing.

Immunity to Constitution damage, drain or penalties.

Immunity to [death] effects.

The Diehard feat

I really hope this class works out for you.

[Daverin]

Woah! Thanks, Neo! Also, I really like that power attack idea.

EDIT: Oh yes, that Brawler! It always seemed like an awesome class. Do you mind if I take inspiration from any other abilities from it?

[sonofzeal]

Oh? I've heard of it, but I've not actually seen it yet. Races of Stone, correct?

Deepstone Sentinal is ToB. Check the PrC section.

[NeoSeraphi]

Woah! Thanks, Neo! Also, I really like that power attack idea.

EDIT: Oh yes, that Brawler! It always seemed like an awesome class. Do you mind if I take inspiration from any other abilities from it?

My name is "Seraphi"

You're welcome, though I admit I stole it from the Stone Power feat in TOB (Just made a few changes to make it actually scale with level)

You're free to use my class for your inspiration as long as you credit me and include a link to the class in your post.

[Daverin]

Um... wow. Okay, that is definitely in the direction I was looking for. Now I just want to translate that into a base class.

Also, sorry Seraphi! Didn't mean to emphasize the wrong part of your name.

And thanks for the approval.

[NeoSeraphi]

Um... wow. Okay, that is definitely in the direction I was looking for. Now I just want to translate that into a base class.

Also, sorry Seraphi! Didn't mean to emphasize the wrong part of your name.

And thanks for the approval.

No problem. I'm not mad, I was just letting you know. And the Deepstone Sentinel is pretty much teh awesome, so have fun with it. (Dwarves all the way)

The problem with tanking in 3.5 is there's no threat-generation mechanic. You need to figure out some kind of goad-like feat, but you have to make it effective. (You should allow a saving throw, but it should have a higher than normal DC, as them failing the saving throw is already punishment enough, they're all going to attack you at once)

Consider this:

As a full-round action, the x can clang his shield or beat his chest or otherwise draw attention to himself. This is a sonic, mind-affecting ability that affects all enemies who can hear the x within 60 feet. Any affected creature must make a Will save (DC 15+1/2 class level+Cha mod) or be forced to move towards the x during their next round and attack him. If the creature has natural weapons, it must use them over spells or supernatural abilities, but not over manufactured weapons. If the creature uses a ranged weapon, it may ignore the "must move" part of this feature. The creature will continue to attack the x for a number of rounds equal to his class level. It will defend itself against outside attacks, but will not retaliate against other attackers.

[Daverin]

Oh, I've actually done a "tank" class before, one which had both a single-target and an aoe taunt. The thing is, as proof of concept, I want to see how far one can go with terrain manipulation: Making enemies prone, closing up gaps and redirecting them to you, and otherwise just being too impossible a nuisance to not choose you.

Also, as mentioned in the OP, I will include mobility as well, something I feel is actually missing in even the Crusader. In a sense, the Crusader feels like a fairly reactive tank, using counters and promising swift retribution for harming anyone else. This is to be a more proactive tank, able to dash in while ruining the place up; if you even try to go for an ally, the character can simply dash to you and ruin your day.

Of course, I could still likely provide a taunt. But that is something I would want to make more clutch, and not a main method of tanking.

Also, primary resource, because x/day annoys me; I prefer a fluid style of resource that is inherent in the actions of the class. So, something like health or a WoW like fury system.

[NeoSeraphi]

Oh, I've actually done a "tank" class before, one which had both a single-target and an aoe taunt. The thing is, as proof of concept, I want to see how far one can go with terrain manipulation: Making enemies prone, closing up gaps and redirecting them to you, and otherwise just being too impossible a nuisance to not choose you.

Also, as mentioned in the OP, I will include mobility as well, something I feel is actually missing in even the Crusader. In a sense, the Crusader feels like a fairly reactive tank, using counters and promising swift retribution for harming anyone else. This is to be a more proactive tank, able to dash in while ruining the place up; if you even try to go for an ally, the character can simply dash to you and ruin your day.

Of course, I could still likely provide a taunt. But that is something I would want to make more clutch, and not a main method of tanking.

Also, primary resource, because x/day annoys me; I prefer a fluid style of resource that is inherent in the actions of the class. So, something like health or a WoW like fury system.

You can be a nuisance if you like, but that requires the DM caring that you're being a nuisance. Using a roleplay mechanic to try and force a metagaming player to target you over the caster who is being MORE annoying damage wise is probably not going to work unless the DM is especially sympathetic.

[Daverin]

Obviously, this may need to at least be discussed with the DM so they understand the intent, although I am trying to think of ways to make it so that, in practice if not name, it is the same. For example say you are slightly to the side of a monster, while the caster is in plain view. You force the terrain between the to go up, as well as other areas that mean the enemy have no other choice but to go around you or through you. Which you then take advantage of.

Maybe if I start showing some ability ideas...

[NeoSeraphi]

How about a shield of earth?

Edit: Like a dome of earth you bring over an ally's head to shield them from harm?

[Daverin]

Oh, now that would also be an idea! Or... some kind of shield at any rate. I suppose I should say that the class is not meant to be associated with earth, per se, just is strong enough to break it and manipulate it as such. But I could think of something...

Well, how about this, here is an idea for what I'm going for (like I said, I know little in the ways of balance, and have no clue if this is or is not broken...):

Tremorfoot (Ex): The class moves forward with such force as to cause vibrations around it. For every 5 ft the class takes, it can spend x amount of hp or fury, and cause tremorfoot. Any enemy adjacent to the class must make a reflex save (usual standard here), or else become prone. If it succeeds, it still suffers from having its land speed halved until next round. An enemy can be affected by tremorfoot multiple times in one round, each time it must make a save (this could probably be unfair; I'm throwing it in on the basis of resource consumption, which I always try to make it a small minigame of managing your resource.)

EDIT: Oh yes! That's right, I remember a move I made for that previous class that is meant to be a "shield other" move, yet also fitting with the idea of mobility. Basically an interception type move, that costs to use AND forces the class to take the punishment instead, as well as any potential drawbacks from losing the original position.

[eftexar]

How about an ability that lets you push opponents back whenever you make a melee attack of opportunity?

[Daverin]

I was thinking of a pushback attack somewhere in there as well. On just AoOs? Maybe. I think that intercept move will have pushback as well.

[Yitzi]

The best approach, if your DM is ok with it, is for him to make a class or prestige class for that concept.

[Daverin]

Aw, but then I wouldn't get to do it!

Plus, I'm the one who really likes to homebrew, and have done so a few times (which the DM has approved before.) Also, I was the one who got my DM into the game, and have some more experience than he with this aspect (mind you, that does not make me think I can rules lawyer him. After all, I know of Rule 0! )

Here are three more to think about:

Thundering Blows: The class is so powerful that it can literally knock its foes off their feets, pushing them back. Whenever it successfully attacks, it may expend x hp or fury to push the enemy back 5 ft. If this would push them into a normally unbreakable solid object, such as a wall, then they instead receive an additional 2d6 damage + Str modifier. (I know I've seen better wording for the wall thing, but I can't think of it.)

and, to emphasize a different aspect

Arc Strike (or Air render, haven't decided on the name yet): The class is able to swing so furiously that it can only be described as rending the air itself. By expending x hp or fury per attack, the class gains an additional 5 ft. of reach; given the nature of the reach, it actually turns the attack into a line attack, where everyone up to the maximum reach is affected, including allies. The class can choose to expend x additional hp without limit, each x spent giving an additional 5 ft of reach.

Also, that intercept idea:

Interception: The class reserves the right to be the only one of its team hit in a fight, and it will do anything to make good that claim, even dashing towards an ally in trouble. By expending x amount of hp or fury for every 30 ft traveled (I could easily see that number being tweaked), the class is able to charge, as a swift action (or immediate, I forget off the top of my head which is right above free), towards either an enemy who is about to damage an allied target other than the class itself. The class receives any damage the ally might have received, and deals damage as normal for a charge. In addition, the enemy is affected by thundering blow, at no additional cost to the class.

[NeoSeraphi]

Aw, but then I wouldn't get to do it!

Plus, I'm the one who really likes to homebrew, and have done so a few times (which the DM has approved before.) Also, I was the one who got my DM into the game, and have some more experience than he with this aspect (mind you, that does not make me think I can rules lawyer him. After all, I know of Rule 0! )

Here are three more to think about:

Thundering Blows: The class is so powerful that it can literally knock its foes off their feets, pushing them back. Whenever it successfully attacks, it may expend x hp or fury to push the enemy back 5 ft. If this would push them into a normally unbreakable solid object, such as a wall, then they instead receive an additional 2d6 damage + Str modifier. (I know I've seen better wording for the wall thing, but I can't think of it.)

and, to emphasize a different aspect

Arc Strike (or Air render, haven't decided on the name yet): The class is able to swing so furiously that it can only be described as rending the air itself. By expending x hp or fury per attack, the class gains an additional 5 ft. of reach; given the nature of the reach, it actually turns the attack into a line attack, where everyone up to the maximum reach is affected, including allies. The class can choose to expend x additional hp without limit, each x spent giving an additional 5 ft of reach.

Also, that intercept idea:

Interception: The class reserves the right to be the only one of its team hit in a fight, and it will do anything to make good that claim, even dashing towards an ally in trouble. By expending x amount of hp or fury for every 30 ft traveled (I could easily see that number being tweaked), the class is able to charge, as a swift action (or immediate, I forget off the top of my head which is right above free), towards either an enemy who is about to damage an allied target other than the class itself. The class receives any damage the ally might have received, and deals damage as normal for a charge. In addition, the enemy is affected by thundering blow, at no additional cost to the class.

Thundering Blows- We have a mechanic for that in D&D. It's called Bull Rushing. It also takes into account your size versus the monster you're attacking's size, something your ability does not do.

Air Render- Unfortunately this sounds like a primarily slashing/piercing ability, I don't think that a bludgeoning weapon would be able to cut the air so finely.

Interception- Sounds good.

[eftexar]

Can you use a bullrush as an attack of opportunity though? I think that is what thundering blows is for.

[NeoSeraphi]

Can you use a bullrush as an attack of opportunity though? I think that is what thundering blows is for.

I know, but I was saying, he should make it grant an auto-bull rush attack. Not just a generic knock back of 5'.

[Daverin]

Thundering Blows - That is a good point (another thing, I sometimes forget about existing mechanics to do that same thing...) actually, that may be easier to describe. The only differences are:

- Price. Bull rush involves a check, while thundering blows has you pay resource to tack it onto an attack. I could probably just make you pay for a guaranteed bull rush, though.

- Damage. You still hit them for damage, then you push them. Also, I should have made it clear, but it is based on an "attack action." Why is this important? Because then you can full attack then do this (or miss and miss the opportunity.)

-Follow through, which bull rush has, and this doesn't. This makes bull rush better, in this respect.

So, with this in mind, how about:

Thundering blows: At the end of any successful attack action, the class may spend x hp or fury, and precede to attempt a Bull Rush. (from here, he can either get a bonus, or auto succeed.) He may attempt this in the middle of a full attack, but he loses the rest of his attack actions if he does so.

Next, Arc strike. I definitely should choose that name. As for the flavor, I wasn't thinking about that, as I adopted it from a previous class idea, who would have been fine with blades. So, instead of "rending the air", it should be "forcing the air back." Basically, the class swings with such force as to make a blast of air go forth. Kind of like what a fan does, but turned up to 11.

Yay on intercept! Now I just would mention it bull rushes while dealing damage.

Next, I will try to think of something that is about the whole earthshaping thing. This one I will try to make a kind of fissure type move. Is there anything similar to it already in DnD?

[NeoSeraphi]

Thundering Blows - That is a good point (another thing, I sometimes forget about existing mechanics to do that same thing...) actually, that may be easier to describe. The only differences are:

- Price. Bull rush involves a check, while thundering blows has you pay resource to tack it onto an attack. I could probably just make you pay for a guaranteed bull rush, though.

- Damage. You still hit them for damage, then you push them. Also, I should have made it clear, but it is based on an "attack action." Why is this important? Because then you can full attack then do this (or miss and miss the opportunity.)

-Follow through, which bull rush has, and this doesn't. This makes bull rush better, in this respect.

So, with this in mind, how about:

Thundering blows: At the end of any successful attack action, the class may spend x hp or fury, and precede to attempt a Bull Rush. (from here, he can either get a bonus, or auto succeed.) He may attempt this in the middle of a full attack, but he loses the rest of his attack actions if he does so.

Next, Arc strike. I definitely should choose that name. As for the flavor, I wasn't thinking about that, as I adopted it from a previous class idea, who would have been fine with blades. So, instead of "rending the air", it should be "forcing the air back." Basically, the class swings with such force as to make a blast of air go forth. Kind of like what a fan does, but turned up to 11.

Yay on intercept! Now I just would mention it bull rushes while dealing damage.

Next, I will try to think of something that is about the whole earthshaping thing. This one I will try to make a kind of fissure type move. Is there anything similar to it already in DnD?

The thing about auto-succeeding on a bull rush attempt is it's not as good as granting a bonus, because on a bull rush attempt, when you succeed, you can succeed even better than normal. For every 5 points you beat your opponent, they go back another 5 feat. And unlike your Thundering Blows, you can move with them. So it's like slamming your opponent so hard they fly back 15 or 20 feet, and you move with them, which is perfect for keeping aggro centered on you, as you cut off their access to your other party members while staying in range of their attacks, making you the logical choice. (Also you just bashed their face in so hard they flew back 20 feet. That might get them pissed)

[Daverin]

Ah, good point. Bonus it is, then!

Now I'm too tired to think of how to do a fissure move... I'll just work on it tomorrow. I also need to find some way to add customization potential to the class...

[Daverin]

Okay, well, before I decide to tackle the fissure thing, I just realized that I wanted to take the opportunity to allow the class to be able to, if not actually fly, at least be able to dealing with flying opponents. Cue supped up jumping abilities. Now, let's see if I can properly do an ability that involves an existing mechanic this time:

Superpowered jump: The class focuses his strength in his lower body, allowing for incredible distances to be made while jumping. For every x hp or fury he spends, he can increase his jump check by 5. In addition, every time the amount spent is a multiple of y, the distance is doubled. Furthermore, whenever a jump is powered this way, it does not count against movement remaining.

Now, I am not quite clear on some things. For example, when a character makes a high jump, can it only move vertically? Because basically, I want to allow pinpoint accuracy in where the class can jump to, and where it can jump to should be about any flying creature, if the class can afford it. So what would I need to do to make that fit the jump mechanics? Also, am I right in assuming that ordinarily jump uses up movement?

also, as a part two for this move:

Earth-shattering Landing: Being able to jump so high, the class is naturally in danger of heavy damage from landing. However, through sheer application of force, the class can instead bullet down to the ground, both preventing damage and causing a shockwave that harms everyone in the area. By spending x hp or fury, the class lands safely from any height as a swift action. In addition, for every 10 ft the class descended, the impact causes 1d4 damage, which has a range of 5 ft. per 10 ft. descended. In addition, any class so affected must make a standard save, with a bonus equal to 1 per every 10 ft. descended, or else be knocked back 10 ft. and become prone and stunned for 2 rounds; a successful safe prevents the prone and stun, but still knocks back any creature. The class is able to force the landing at any point while falling, but only gains the damage benefits based on when it first decided upon this action.

I definitely could improve on the language of my moves, no doubt, but I think that at least gets the idea across.

Also, here is a more tanky ability: a supped up diehard:

True Diehard: The class is nearly impossible to kill, and impossible to knock down. The class must be brought to either -10 or the negative inverse of their Constitution modifer, whichever results in more effective hp. In addition, the class remains completely conscious and able when brought below 0 hp, and does not become disabled.

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay, well, before I decide to tackle the fissure thing, I just realized that I wanted to take the opportunity to allow the class to be able to, if not actually fly, at least be able to dealing with flying opponents. Cue supped up jumping abilities. Now, let's see if I can properly do an ability that involves an existing mechanic this time:

Superpowered jump: The class focuses his strength in his lower body, allowing for incredible distances to be made while jumping. For every x hp or fury he spends, he can increase his jump check by 5. In addition, every time the amount spent is a multiple of y, the distance is doubled. Furthermore, whenever a jump is powered this way, it does not count against movement remaining.

Now, I am not quite clear on some things. For example, when a character makes a high jump, can it only move vertically? Because basically, I want to allow pinpoint accuracy in where the class can jump to, and where it can jump to should be about any flying creature, if the class can afford it. So what would I need to do to make that fit the jump mechanics? Also, am I right in assuming that ordinarily jump uses up movement?

also, as a part two for this move:

Earth-shattering Landing: Being able to jump so high, the class is naturally in danger of heavy damage from landing. However, through sheer application of force, the class can instead bullet down to the ground, both preventing damage and causing a shockwave that harms everyone in the area. By spending x hp or fury, the class lands safely from any height as a swift action. In addition, for every 10 ft the class descended, the impact causes 1d4 damage, which has a range of 5 ft. per 10 ft. descended. In addition, any class so affected must make a standard save, with a bonus equal to 1 per every 10 ft. descended, or else be knocked back 10 ft. and become prone and stunned for 2 rounds; a successful safe prevents the prone and stun, but still knocks back any creature. The class is able to force the landing at any point while falling, but only gains the damage benefits based on when it first decided upon this action.

I definitely could improve on the language of my moves, no doubt, but I think that at least gets the idea across.

Also, here is a more tanky ability: a supped up diehard:

True Diehard: The class is nearly impossible to kill, and impossible to knock down. The class must be brought to either -10 or the negative inverse of their Constitution modifer, whichever results in more effective hp. In addition, the class remains completely conscious and able when brought below 0 hp, and does not become disabled.

True Diehard should be inverse of Constiution score, otherwise it won't see much use.

[Daverin]

Gah! That was exactly what I meant, and was going to put down. Thanks for noticing. Any thoughts on the jumping ability?

[NeoSeraphi]

Gah! That was exactly what I meant, and was going to put down. Thanks for noticing. Any thoughts on the jumping ability?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm

This is about all I have to say on that. Jump isn't really my skill, I'm more of a Knowledge (Tomb of Horrors Walkthrough) kind of guy.