Requesting help on a caster class

[Noctis Vigil]

So, I'm currently running a campaign for a few friends of mine online. It will be a while yet, but eventually they'll run into a group of isolated people, most of whom are of a base class I'm trying to make: the Sage. The point of the class is to be Wizard-like, but be able to draw from both divine and arcane spell lists freely. The closest I've been able to come to a working concept so far is to make this a race of Mystic Theurges. I do have a bit of a working concept, but nothing near finishing.

I was thinking two spellbooks, one for arcane magic and one for divine. When taking the first level in the class, you choose whether you'll be a divine or an arcane class, and all your spells are cast as that type from then on (this can't be changed). They get spells per day as a Wizard, but learn 3 spells per level up, two of their main magic type and one of their non magic type, so if they chose arcane as the kind of spell they cast, they'd get two arcane and one divine. They do get bonus feats, but instead of the usual metamagic or item creation, they get Skill Focus (knowledge of your choice). Instead of Scribe Scroll and a familiar at first level, something akin to Bardic Knowledge.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is pretty fluffing broken as a class. My PCs won't gain access to it till level oo-la-la or higher, but at some point it will become available to them. I'm trying to come up with 1.) a way to not have it be broken (or as broken, anyways) or 2.) a class that does this in a (somewhat) unbroken way. If anyone has suggestions on either of those, I could really use them.

[eftexar]

Well I would go about it in one of a few ways.
-> Ability to cast arcane and divine spells, but as separate lists and having lesser access than the wizard or sorcerer.
-> Make a prestige class that advances both types of casting and grants some cool abilities as well.
-> Arcane casting, but can also cast from domains
-> Able to freely cast from both types of spells, but can't cast as many and can't cast spontaneously.
-> Make your own system that doesn't use spells, but has both arcane and divine flavor.
-> Or you could do it the way you said which isn't particularly broken in the first place.

[Circle of Life]

While not exactly what you're describing, the Runescribe does blend arcane and divine magic on a caster chassis, and has proven no more powerful than, say, a sorcerer in testing thus far. I don't think it's a perfect solution to your predicament, but you should be able to draw some inspiration from it.

[Noctis Vigil]

@eftextar:
Some good suggestions there. You say you don't think this is broken? That's good to hear! The first comment I got from someone when I said "full caster that uses arcane and divine" was "wow, that's really broken!"

@Circle of Life:
That's a very nice class! Not sure how much of it will fit with what I'm looking for here, but I may end up putting some of those in my campaign.

My big problem right now is that it feels more spell-based. The original concept was a very knowledge-based class, well-learned and wise, but it just doesn't feel it. Any suggestions for how to add that to a class? The only thing I could think of was to mimic Bardic Knowledge.

[Yitzi]

For making it knowledge-based, maybe instead of a spellbook the character makes an appropriate knowledge check (rolled secretly, DC should probably be 20+2XSL, and no taking 10) if they want to prepare a spell. If they succeed, they know it and can prepare it, if they fail they don't. Retries are ok, but use the same base roll as the original roll (so once your knowledge skill is high enough, you learn the spell.) This'll also help balance it some, by randomizing the available spells.

[jiriku]

The big balancing factor you want to implement is a hard cap on spells known. The reason that anything like an archivist/wizard gestalt is broken is that you have potential access to 99% of the spells in the game, which enables you to create powerful combos the designers didn't anticipate and store up instant solutions to every conceivable problem.

I'd suggest that you cap the maximum spells known such that by 20th level, a member of the sage class can know anywhere between 60-100 spells (depending on your target power level).

Strict limits on spells per day are also effective. Even if you have many spells in your spellbook, if you have few spells per day it's easy to stumble into a problem for which you don't have the perfect solution prepared, and every class ought to have those "oh fudge" moments where you find yourself in a tight spot and have to slap together an improvised solution with imperfect tools.

[wayfare]

The big balancing factor you want to implement is a hard cap on spells known. The reason that anything like an archivist/wizard gestalt is broken is that you have potential access to 99% of the spells in the game, which enables you to create powerful combos the designers didn't anticipate and store up instant solutions to every conceivable problem.

I'd suggest that you cap the maximum spells known such that by 20th level, a member of the sage class can know anywhere between 60-100 spells (depending on your target power level).

Strict limits on spells per day are also effective. Even if you have many spells in your spellbook, if you have few spells per day it's easy to stumble into a problem for which you don't have the perfect solution prepared, and every class ought to have those "oh fudge" moments where you find yourself in a tight spot and have to slap together an improvised solution with imperfect tools.

Seconded. A huge number of spells = huge versatility.

[Yitzi]

On the flip side, a Sage should be quite versatile. Better to cut spell power or customizability than number of spells known for this class.

[Noctis Vigil]

Hmm. How about instead of putting a hard cap on the spells they can cast, limit them to level 8 and lower spells? I was thinking of giving them a bonus on Knowledge checks equal to half their class level rounded down; possibly drop the bonus Skill Focus feats and make it a bonus equal to their level. For proficiencies, one simple weapon of the player's choice, no armor and no shields.

Also, was thinking of making the Bardic Knowledge mimicry not be applicable to current events. You couldn't use it to see if you know about the local king's current doings, but you could use it to find out if he did anything 100 years ago historically.

Thoughts?

[jiriku]

Hmm. How about instead of putting a hard cap on the spells they can cast, limit them to level 8 and lower spells?

The answer would probably be, "it depends". But for myself, I think if you gave me a reasonable number of spells per day and the ability to dumpster-dive through every arcane and divine spell in the game for my spellbook and prayerbook, I could break the game really, really, really, really hard. Of course, if you gave me just a plain vanilla wizard, I could do that too, so maybe it's not any better or worse than a regular wizard.

[Ziegander]

Have you heard about the Archivist class from the Heroes of Horror book? It's so close to what you're describing it seems like it would be trivially easy to mold toward your aims.

The basic premise of the Archivist is that it's the "divine wizard." It casts divine spells, but it prepares spells from a prayer book and has a limited () number of spells known and has poor BAB.

Further, the Archivist has a class feature called Dark Knowledge which reinforces your idea of a well-read class, and via rules lawyering an Archivist can even add arcane spells to his prayer book.

So, it seems like what you would want to do is come up with a slightly more Bard-ish/Cloistered Cleric-ish Archivist, but with built-in, non-lawyering arcane spell casting (in addition to the divine) that is less broken on the whole as the Archivist class.

I think I can do this.

[Noctis Vigil]

Have you heard about the Archivist class from the Heroes of Horror book? It's so close to what you're describing it seems like it would be trivially easy to mold toward your aims.

The basic premise of the Archivist is that it's the "divine wizard." It casts divine spells, but it prepares spells from a prayer book and has a limited () number of spells known and has poor BAB.

Further, the Archivist has a class feature called Dark Knowledge which reinforces your idea of a well-read class, and via rules lawyering an Archivist can even add arcane spells to his prayer book.

So, it seems like what you would want to do is come up with a slightly more Bard-ish/Cloistered Cleric-ish Archivist, but with built-in, non-lawyering arcane spell casting (in addition to the divine) that is less broken on the whole as the Archivist class.

I think I can do this.

That's a pretty good summary, actually. I was also leaning away from the more dark aspects of the Archivist class, too. This is supposed to be a caster who can't take a beating, but knows a TON and can cast pretty much anything. I actually have planned to make a separate feat for them when they hit epic to let them use level 9 spells. The slow spell progression should balance them out slightly, I think.

Alright, I think I have enough to get a rough class outline written up now. Expect an update to the first post soon.