You Have Forgotten the Face of Your Father [Prestige Class]

[unosarta]

Oh no, I found the fourth book in the series. But that's the only book that I can find; heck, I even asked my Dad, and he actually has it, but he couldn't find it. And he has a super organized book shelf so I was just like, " Wut? WUT?! "

Well, that is certainly unfortunate. I hope you find it in due time.

[TravelLog]

I really like this, especially as a fan of the Dark Tower series, but I feel like, while strong and flavorful, it just doesn't... I don't know...shine the way I would want a class based on Roland to. The abilities fit certainly, but I'd like to see more options and a deepening of the Paths. As a character, Roland has such an enormous affect on the world, his environment, and the people he meets, something which I feel should be reflected in the class (especially as part of a capstone). Mechanically, I really enjoy the class, I just want to be able to say I love it, if that makes any sense.

Another note (if you haven't finished the books yet, DO NOT look at this):

Spoiler

Show

Since Roland gets repeatedly reincarnated every time he reaches the tower, you might want to think about a capstone relating to that somehow.

Anyway, in summary, great class, though I'd like some additions.
Also, please do an RF/Walter o'Dim/Marten Broadcloak PrC. I will shower you with internets.

[unosarta]

I really like this, especially as a fan of the Dark Tower series, but I feel like, while strong and flavorful, it just doesn't... I don't know...shine the way I would want a class based on Roland to. The abilities fit certainly, but I'd like to see more options and a deepening of the Paths. As a character, Roland has such an enormous affect on the world, his environment, and the people he meets, something which I feel should be reflected in the class (especially as part of a capstone). Mechanically, I really enjoy the class, I just want to be able to say I love it, if that makes any sense.

What exactly about it do you think did not allow it to "shine"? This is a completely serious question, I think it's really important, but I can't change anything if I don't have any specifics.

This class does have an affect on the world, however that is not something that can really be done mechanically, and in my opinion, has more to do with the character itself, as opposed to the class; the character can use their abilities to affect the world in big ways, but that isn't necessarily something that a class is able to mechanically reflect.

Another note (if you haven't finished the books yet, DO NOT look at this):

Spoiler

Show

Since Roland gets repeatedly reincarnated every time he reaches the tower, you might want to think about a capstone relating to that somehow.

Ooooh, interesting point. I really loved the way King ended the series, and that is definitely a good way to reflect it. Maybe make it like a living lich, with his Guns being the sort of phylactery? What do you think?

Anyway, in summary, great class, though I'd like some additions.
Also, please do an RF/Walter o'Dim/Marten Broadcloak PrC. I will shower you with internets.

Oh gods, I don't think Walter could have a PrC. His abilities aren't really mentioned in too much detail, and I always imagined him as a Telepath Psion.

[TravelLog]

I can try for specifics. I'll do a general breakdown.

Prereqs:
This is mostly whatever you want it to be, so no complaints here.

Skills:
I think Intimidate should absolutely be on there (few people stand up to Roland's scrutiny), as well as Survival (he just won't die...literally. And he braved the Desert countless times), and Listen (Roland is rarely talkative, preferring to listen).

Hit Die:
d10 is reasonably hardy, but not overwhelmingly so. Fine.

BAB and Saves:
I agree with Full BAB and the Reflex save. I think Fort might be elevated to Medium progression, or Will to full. Roland is both utterly ploddingly stubborn mentally, as well as possessed of inhuman endurance. Even balance-wise, it's not insane, just pushing the class to upper tier 3.

Proficiencies:
They should also be able to choose one exotic-ranged weapon of their choice (so that players can pick a weapon to call their own, and really nurture as Roland does his guns). In fact, I recommend adding a unique gun feature that acts sort of like a weapon of legacy in that it grows as the user does, though less complex. "Guns of the Patriarch" maybe? I also think light armor isn't out of the question. Even rogues get light armor.

Gunslinger's Oath:
While I like this in principal, I do have a number of reservations. First, Roland was never squeamish about committing murder for the overall greater good. In the first novel, he murders an entire town that attacks him under the influence of Walter/Randall Flagg. Moreover, he let's Jake "die" at the end of the same novel to reach Flagg, much as he sacrificed his hawk David to beat Cort. I would personally change this to a Trial of Will or something like the Gunslinger's did in the novels. It's flavor though so it's more up to you. If you keep it, expand/clarify what "innocent" means.

Path of the Word or Gun:
Okay, this is arguably the central class feature, but all I feel after I read it is "so what?" You can choose between either advancing casting or plain attacking. Lots of PrCs offer that and more. Why should I pick this one? Flavor is good, but Flavor+Mechanics is Poetry. I'll come back to this point in greater depth at the end of this post.

Steady Hands:
Nothing special. Mildly useful. Solid.

Fan the Hammer:
Roland calls this his "Finger Trick", but otherwise it's fine.

Trapfinding:
Standard fare. Moving on.

The Flow of Ka:
So...fate makes Roland faster? I understand giving an Insight bonus to speed, but it's enough for a class feature. Move that part to another feature and make this have something to do with "guiding bullets" or something. Perhaps Ka guides the Gunslinger to their desired objectives outside of combat, while in combat, it allows the Gunslinger to hit targets around corners to start, then scales to include things like phasing through barriers (magical or otherwise), etc. Gunslingers are supposed to be implacable and unstoppable. No obstacle should stand in the way of their Ka.

Sharpshooter's Eyes:
Interesting, but could be improved. Make it scale to grant low-light, dark-vision and maybe even being able to see through magical darkness. Also, perhaps give more uses of See Invisibility than once per day.

The Winds of Ka:
Good ability. Here is where the Insight bonus to land speed should also go. This is nice flavor-wise, as well as being extremely useful in a wide variety of situations.

Path of the White:
While understandable, this does not fit image-wise with the unstoppable, emotionless Gunslinger theme Roland usually has going. He has soft spots yes, but he isn't a healer. Provide an ACF that allows continued scaling of the Paladin's lay-on hands, then make a more interesting/fitting feature to fill in this slot.

Rapid Reload:
Nice. Maybe change the name though since Gunslinger's will also have a feat of the same name. Perhaps "Instant Reload".

Perfect Calm AND Rain of Lead:
Make these two features high-level abilities of the Path of The Gun subset, then make a new 9th level feature and use the capstone for the Reincarnation form, however you choose to do it.

Expanding the Paths:
It's hard to describe precisely what I mean, but I feel these should go beyond a single level's feature. If you're familiar with things like the Magic Marksman (and many other homebrews) that will give a choice of paths that the character selects once, then advances down that path, each one with it's own flavor and abilities, techniques, spells, what have you.

For the Path of the Gun, it can be straight up Gun-Techniques (like Rain of Lead), physical enhancements, combat options, high damage stuff...

For the Path of the Word, it can be a way to perhaps meld spellcasting and gun-firing or more Ka-related options. This is where you can be as creative and unique as you want. Go crazy!

[unosarta]

Skills:
I think Intimidate should absolutely be on there (few people stand up to Roland's scrutiny), as well as Survival (he just won't die...literally. And he braved the Desert countless times), and Listen (Roland is rarely talkative, preferring to listen).

Good points.

BAB and Saves:
I agree with Full BAB and the Reflex save. I think Fort might be elevated to Medium progression, or Will to full. Roland is both utterly ploddingly stubborn mentally, as well as possessed of inhuman endurance. Even balance-wise, it's not insane, just pushing the class to upper tier 3.

I am not sure on the balance of having two good saves, one medium save, d10 Hit Dice, and full Base Attack Bonus. That is very, very good. I would rather have it at one good, two medium saves, full Base Attack Bonus, and d8 Hit Dice, but I can live with d10. However, that extra save is kind of over the top. A bonus to will saves as a class feature is fine and dandy, however.

Proficiencies:
They should also be able to choose one exotic-ranged weapon of their choice (so that players can pick a weapon to call their own, and really nurture as Roland does his guns). In fact, I recommend adding a unique gun feature that acts sort of like a weapon of legacy in that it grows as the user does, though less complex. "Guns of the Patriarch" maybe? I also think light armor isn't out of the question. Even rogues get light armor.

Oooh, not a bad idea at all. I don't know about the unique gun, though. Seems kind of unnecessary, although that is just my opinion.

Gunslinger's Oath:
While I like this in principal, I do have a number of reservations. First, Roland was never squeamish about committing murder for the overall greater good. In the first novel, he murders an entire town that attacks him under the influence of Walter/Randall Flagg. Moreover, he let's Jake "die" at the end of the same novel to reach Flagg, much as he sacrificed his hawk David to beat Cort. I would personally change this to a Trial of Will or something like the Gunslinger's did in the novels. It's flavor though so it's more up to you. If you keep it, expand/clarify what "innocent" means.

Notice the drawback? You lose all Supernatural Abilities for 24 hours. I feel stupid about this now, but the class doesn't even have any supernatural abilities. So, there is literally no drawback for the oath. And Roland most certainly does those actions, but he always feels guilty about it afterward, (surprisingly guilty, give the amount of horrible things he has done for his quest). I was hoping to add some Supernatural abilities to make the effect more of a drawback.

Path of the Word or Gun:
Okay, this is arguably the central class feature, but all I feel after I read it is "so what?" You can choose between either advancing casting or plain attacking. Lots of PrCs offer that and more. Why should I pick this one? Flavor is good, but Flavor+Mechanics is Poetry. I'll come back to this point in greater depth at the end of this post.

Plain attacking? You get a taunt effect, which as far as I know, doesn't really exist in published Prestige Classes, and only really does so in the Knight class, one of the entry ways into this class. And I think you underestimate the power of spellcasting. In terms of why to choose this class? There aren't any other gun using divine casting classes. Literally.

The Flow of Ka:
So...fate makes Roland faster? I understand giving an Insight bonus to speed, but it's enough for a class feature. Move that part to another feature and make this have something to do with "guiding bullets" or something. Perhaps Ka guides the Gunslinger to their desired objectives outside of combat, while in combat, it allows the Gunslinger to hit targets around corners to start, then scales to include things like phasing through barriers (magical or otherwise), etc. Gunslingers are supposed to be implacable and unstoppable. No obstacle should stand in the way of their Ka.

There really isn't a way to translate Ka into D&D mechanics. Seriously. Even your suggestion doesn't do it, and honestly, there is nothing to suggest Roland can guide bullets in the story, which makes it more over the top rather than the mundanity which makes Roland and company so endearing as characters. Movement speed boosting was the only way I could think to have anything similar to Ka.

Maybe at higher levels the Gunslinger can use Locate Object, or something similar, once per day?

Sharpshooter's Eyes:
Interesting, but could be improved. Make it scale to grant low-light, dark-vision and maybe even being able to see through magical darkness. Also, perhaps give more uses of See Invisibility than once per day.

Okay.

Path of the White:
While understandable, this does not fit image-wise with the unstoppable, emotionless Gunslinger theme Roland usually has going. He has soft spots yes, but he isn't a healer. Provide an ACF that allows continued scaling of the Paladin's lay-on hands, then make a more interesting/fitting feature to fill in this slot.

He most certainly does heal his companions. However, the point is not that he is healing them; that he does not do. What he is doing is bolstering them. This is in part due to the weird flavor associated with Hit Points. He is reassuring an ally, granting a kind word or a touch which makes them feel better. Part of the whole concept of hit points are that they are partially simply toughness, and partially luck or the ability to dodge. This is why you don't literally take 5 or 6 blows to be killed; you simply dodge 4 or 5 times, and that final blow takes you out.

Rapid Reload:
Nice. Maybe change the name though since Gunslinger's will also have a feat of the same name. Perhaps "Instant Reload".

On it.

Perfect Calm AND Rain of Lead:
Make these two features high-level abilities of the Path of The Gun subset, then make a new 9th level feature and use the capstone for the Reincarnation form, however you choose to do it.

Okay, I guess.

Expanding the Paths:
It's hard to describe precisely what I mean, but I feel these should go beyond a single level's feature. If you're familiar with things like the Magic Marksman (and many other homebrews) that will give a choice of paths that the character selects once, then advances down that path, each one with it's own flavor and abilities, techniques, spells, what have you.

Dude.

Anyway. I guess I see what you are saying.

For the Path of the Gun, it can be straight up Gun-Techniques (like Rain of Lead), physical enhancements, combat options, high damage stuff...

So, the current class features? That sounds exactly like the way they currently are. Well, not exactly but very close.

For the Path of the Word, it can be a way to perhaps meld spellcasting and gun-firing or more Ka-related options. This is where you can be as creative and unique as you want. Go crazy!

I am still confused on how you mean for Ka to be used and utilized.

[TravelLog]

Good points.


I am not sure on the balance of having two good saves, one medium save, d10 Hit Dice, and full Base Attack Bonus. That is very, very good. I would rather have it at one good, two medium saves, full Base Attack Bonus, and d8 Hit Dice, but I can live with d10. However, that extra save is kind of over the top. A bonus to will saves as a class feature is fine and dandy, however.

That sounds perfect.

Oooh, not a bad idea at all. I don't know about the unique gun, though. Seems kind of unnecessary, although that is just my opinion.
It was just a suggestion. I'm trying to just throw out as many ideas as I can to see if it can help you build the class.

Notice the drawback? You lose all Supernatural Abilities for 24 hours. I feel stupid about this now, but the class doesn't even have any supernatural abilities. So, there is literally no drawback for the oath. And Roland most certainly does those actions, but he always feels guilty about it afterward, (surprisingly guilty, give the amount of horrible things he has done for his quest). I was hoping to add some Supernatural abilities to make the effect more of a drawback.
Some Supernatural abilities would be great. And upon rereading, I do notice that haha.

Plain attacking? You get a taunt effect, which as far as I know, doesn't really exist in published Prestige Classes, and only really does so in the Knight class, one of the entry ways into this class. And I think you underestimate the power of spellcasting. In terms of why to choose this class? There aren't any other gun using divine casting classes. Literally.
Touche, at least-gunwise.

There really isn't a way to translate Ka into D&D mechanics. Seriously. Even your suggestion doesn't do it, and honestly, there is nothing to suggest Roland can guide bullets in the story, which makes it more over the top rather than the mundanity which makes Roland and company so endearing as characters. Movement speed boosting was the only way I could think to have anything similar to Ka.
This suggestion actually had nothing to do with books. It was more an idea for interesting tactical options not provided by other classes. Call it a fanciful imagining of Roland with a bit of magical enhancement thrown in.

Maybe at higher levels the Gunslinger can use Locate Object, or something similar, once per day?
Could work I guess. It's not particularly grabbing, but I'm drawing a blank on how to use Ka just like you are...I'll think and get back to you.

He most certainly does heal his companions. However, the point is not that he is healing them; that he does not do. What he is doing is bolstering them. This is in part due to the weird flavor associated with Hit Points. He is reassuring an ally, granting a kind word or a touch which makes them feel better. Part of the whole concept of hit points are that they are partially simply toughness, and partially luck or the ability to dodge. This is why you don't literally take 5 or 6 blows to be killed; you simply dodge 4 or 5 times, and that final blow takes you out.
Okay, this works I guess. As a higher level ability though, maybe add more effects or usage of the "White"?

Okay, I guess.
Remember, these are only suggestions. It's your class (which I already like a lot), so don't feel pressured to change anything on my account.

Dude.
Well. Color me embarrassed. You clearly know what I'm talking about.

Anyway. I guess I see what you are saying.


So, the current class features? That sounds exactly like the way they currently are. Well, not exactly but very close.
Certainly fairly similar. Maybe just a greater variety of options is the thing I'm looking for, sort of the way Martial Disciplines each offer unique tactical benefits.


I am still confused on how you mean for Ka to be used and utilized.
I really just have a vague idea to be honest. More of a feeling than any distinctive thoughts on the subject.

Added responses in bold. Hope I've been helpful rather than bothersome.

On reading your changes (that was insanely fast by the way), I was wondering what "floating" meant on Weapon enhancements...
And can the Gunslinger also apply enhancements to bullets?

[unosarta]

Awesome. I can't really reply with the bold in the quotes reply, but no worries. I have added path abilities to Path of the Gun and Path of the Word, which now have some different abilities. I also added Guns of the Patriarch.

Floating is explained after the table.

I had some extra time, and I felt like adding 'em.

I am thinking no to the bullet enhancements, but I am not sure of the effect. I am just going to say no.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I like the class, but I think some things need to be changed or toned down. All of the following is critical. I left out the stuff I liked or didn't think needed change.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Diplomacy 9 ranks, Spot 4 ranks
Feats: Rapid Reload, Two Weapon Fighting
Proficiencies: Firearms
Alignment: Any Good
Special: Must have the Smite special ability, or the ability to cast 3rd level divine spells, or the Fighting Challenge special ability
Special: Must be trained as a Gunslinger by another Gunslinger

A. There are three logical entries into this class, as stands. You can be a Paladin, a Knight, or a Cleric. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, to me, at any rate. Why not allow a Fighter, or a Ranger, or whatever to get in? The three that can get in don't particularly synergize incredibly well with the rest of the class. It seems rather arbitrary.

B. None of those classes can take advantage of the two qualifying feats, making it a complete and total feat tax. You also have to spend a proficiency on a Firearm (incidentally, that's a worded a bit unclearly, it should say something like Proficiency: Any firearm), meaning that you literally get no feats at all if you want to qualify for this class. You shouldn't suck for your first six levels just so you can get into this PrC.

The two feats aren't even useful feats. A Gunslinger who doesn't go for two-handing pistols isn't going to get any use out of Two-Weapon Fighting and you get a better version of Rapid Reload as a class feature.

C. None of those classes get Spot as a class skill either, meaning they need to spend 8 ranks on Spot. All three of those classes are already heavily skill-starved, and you have an additional 9 ranks to spend to get into this class. Again, you need to eat up all of your feats and 3/4 of your skill points (with Int 10) just to qualify.

Those Fort and Will saves

Er, that's not the progression.

You can get the good +2/3/3/4/4 etc., etc., or you can get the bad +0/1/1/1/2/2/2 stuff.

Weapon Proficiencies: The Gunslinger gains proficiency with all non-exotic ranged weapons and one exotic ranged weapon of his choice, but gains no proficiency with any armor or shields.

Why not just "all firearms"?

Second Step: The Path of the Gun Gunslinger gains a +4 bonus to Dexterity and Strength, as well as a +3 Competency bonus to Survival checks.
The Path of the Word Gunslinger gains a +4 bonus to Charisma and Wisdom, as well as a +3 bonus to all Diplomacy checks.
These are supernatural effects.

What. Why are you giving them large, untyped bonuses to ability scores? That doesn't make any sense, is kind of boring, and is overpowered.

Third Step: The Path of the Gun Gunslinger may make a Combat Maneuver as a ranged attack, as a full round action. A Combat Maneuver is defined as in Pathfinder, or as a Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Sunder, or Trip attempt. He may not use this ability to Grapple. After using this ability, the Gunslinger must wait 5 rounds before using it again.

This is obviously a 3.5 class. Why is it suddenly getting Pathfinder stuff?

If that wasn't the intention, you need to clarify some things, like what substitutes for Strength.

The Path of the Word Gunslinger may cast a spell as part of a ranged attack, as a full action. The spell must have a range of touch, and cannot be a personal spell. If the Gunslinger uses this ability on his allies, it deals no damage. If used on opponents, it deals normal damage. After using this ability, the Gunslinger must wait 5 rounds before using it again.

This is alright. I would let you use touch AC for allies, though, since they presumably want you to hit them.

The Path of the Word Gunslinger may dominate the minds of others. Doing so is exhausting. As a full round action, once per day, the Gunslinger may force all creatures within 30 feet to make a Will save (DC 10 + Gunslinger levels + Charisma modifier) or become Dominated, as the spell, until the end of the encounter, under the Gunslinger's control. He must concentrate every round that they are dominated. If he takes any damage, he must make a Concentration check equal to the damage or lose concentration and lose control of the dominated creatures. After the encounter ends, the domination remains for up to an hour afterward. After using this ability, the Gunslinger becomes exhausted for the rest of the encounter, and one hour afterward.

This is the Mass version of a 9th level spell, with a better save DC. This trivially ends entire encounters. Way, way too good.

Steady Hands (Ex): Gunslingers are trained to keep their hands steady, even during the most trying of times, so as to hit straight. This is one of the first, and also most important lessons that a gunslinger learns. The Gunslinger may, once per round take 10 on a single ranged attack roll, and may also take 10 on Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand checks, even when under extreme duress such as during combat.

This needs to be bumped up 6 or so levels. The ability to take 10 on a combat check is incredibly good. Maybe keep the Disable Device/Sleight of Hand ability at level 1, and put the combat option at level 7 or 8.

Fan the Hammer (Ex):

The ability to get an extra attack is quite good, and this has no penalties. Maybe add a -1 to every attack in the routine when you use this?

Guns of the Patriarch (Su):

This is the Kensai's ability (the Kensai's primary ability). But far better, because you don't have to pay anything for it.

A +10 weapon is 200,000 gold. That's 77% of your WBL at level 16 when you get this, and it's not even your primary class feature. This needs to be toned way down.

Given that Roland never had flame shooting superguns, I would instead make it a simple enhancement bonus, no special abilities. Something like a +1 enhancement at level 1 or 2, with it increasing by 1 every other level.

The Gunslinger may choose to have their gun become two ranged weapons instead. These ranged weapons must each be one handed guns. They each gain an enhancement bonus based on the above table.

So you get two guns for absolutely no cost at the exact same bonus? Where do I sign up? At least make them split the bonus between the guns.

The Flow of Ka (Ex, Sp): Ka, a word that translates to something like “fate”, is the force that guides all Gunslingers, and all of existance. The Gunslinger knows the flow of Ka, and can follow its path with extreme accuracy. Starting at third level, the Gunslinger gains a +20 Insight bonus to base land speed. In addition, he always knows the location of his Guns of the Patriarch, and he may use the Locate Object spell as a spell like ability, once per hour.

This should be "Locate Object spell, targeting the gun".

Also unsure exactly why they're getting a +20 speed boost.

Twisting Form (Ex): ...

...Any attack that misses him (at any time) grants him a +1 Insight bonus to ranged attack rolls made against the target that attacked him, lasting 3 rounds. This bonus is cumulative, but does not refresh the duration.

Wait, is this always on, or just when he's using the previous benefits of the ability? If it's the former, that's too good. If it's the latter, that's okay.

The Winds of Ka (Ex):

I'm not remembering where Roland could move like an Olympic sprinter. I don't believe this ability is particularly overpowered (although it is pretty good), but I'm curious why you put all of the movement stuff in this class.

Path of the White (Su):

As in-combat healing, this isn't going to see any use, but okay.

Instant Reload (Ex):

In addition, he may make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus -5 when he makes a ranged full attack. This extra attack does not stack with other effects that grant extra attacks, unless they are given by Gunslinger class abilities.

At 16th level (with full BAB), you're getting an attack routine of +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+1 on a full attack.

I'm not quite sure if that's overly good or not. Let me think on it.

Perfect Calm (Ex):

The ability to automatically crit is incredibly good. Probably too good.

Gunslingers are not an especially strong class

That's a pretty blatant lie. I would give up two caster levels on a Zen Archer build to go Cleric 10/Gunslinger 10.

[unosarta]

I like the class, but I think some things need to be changed or toned down. All of the following is critical. I left out the stuff I liked or didn't think needed change.

Which is, looking at your comments, pretty much nothing. Not that I have a problem with that at all, I am sure there are a lot of problems, but you know.

A. There are three logical entries into this class, as stands. You can be a Paladin, a Knight, or a Cleric. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, to me, at any rate. Why not allow a Fighter, or a Ranger, or whatever to get in? The three that can get in don't particularly synergize incredibly well with the rest of the class. It seems rather arbitrary.

Have you looked at the fluff section? This class was made for a campaign setting (it must be noted that it is not my campaign setting). The author of that campaign setting gave me those classes. I was working with what I was given. However, I am not sure I can see exactly how you would want me to make the classes synergize with the features and still have this class not be like, you know, really freaking long.

B. None of those classes can take advantage of the two qualifying feats, making it a complete and total feat tax. You also have to spend a proficiency on a Firearm (incidentally, that's a worded a bit unclearly, it should say something like Proficiency: Any firearm), meaning that you literally get no feats at all if you want to qualify for this class. You shouldn't suck for your first six levels just so you can get into this PrC.

What exactly do you mean? There is nothing stating that a Knight cannot use firearms, if they have proficiency, and Paladins have a feat (although I honestly don't agree that that feat should be necessary) that allows them to make ranged smite attacks. What exactly makes you think the classes will suck for 6 levels before entering this class? Because their abilities do not precisely synergize with the weapon they use? And what about Paladins who want to use guns anyway? What answer do you have for them? Just suck it up and use a melee weapon?

The two feats aren't even useful feats. A Gunslinger who doesn't go for two-handing pistols isn't going to get any use out of Two-Weapon Fighting and you get a better version of Rapid Reload as a class feature.

I can see this argument. What feats do you think could easily and realistically replace them?

C. None of those classes get Spot as a class skill either, meaning they need to spend 8 ranks on Spot. All three of those classes are already heavily skill-starved, and you have an additional 9 ranks to spend to get into this class. Again, you need to eat up all of your feats and 3/4 of your skill points (with Int 10) just to qualify.

So, what is your solution? Honestly, that is more of a problem with the lack of skills of those classes in general, in my opinion, rather than a fault in the class prerequisites. If any Paladin wants to enter a class in which they have more than one skill as a requirement, they are going to have to spend most of their skill points. That is just a fault of the fact that Paladins do not have any skill points.

Why not just "all firearms"?

Because, if you look at the Firearm rules that I linked in the post, the exotic weapons are quite powerful, and worth the feat. In addition, the creator of those firearm rules told me that keeping the exotic worth a feat would be a good idea, which I agree with.

What. Why are you giving them large, untyped bonuses to ability scores? That doesn't make any sense, is kind of boring, and is overpowered.

Overpowered? Seriously? A +4 ability score bonus is overpowered? I can change the type, but seriously, that is nothing. And, I'll be honest, it fits with the class.

This is obviously a 3.5 class. Why is it suddenly getting Pathfinder stuff?

If that wasn't the intention, you need to clarify some things, like what substitutes for Strength.

That is not pathfinder stuff, it is the pathfinder definition for what would otherwise be a long a stupid list of combat abilities. Seriously, I mention that it is how it is defined in pathfinder, and then go ahead and define it. There is no reason to be saying that it is "Pathfinder stuff" when it is explicitly not. Also, where is your definition of "obviously a 3.5 class" coming from, because I don't know about you, but I haven't defined it as any system base at all, besides d20 with 3.5 feats, which Pathfinder is notorious for using. However, that is not the point, and I digress.

This is alright. I would let you use touch AC for allies, though, since they presumably want you to hit them.

Good idea.

This is the Mass version of a 9th level spell, with a better save DC. This trivially ends entire encounters. Way, way too good.

I thought I added a save DC. I will add one back in.
If you dislike it, what would you suggest to replace it?

This needs to be bumped up 6 or so levels. The ability to take 10 on a combat check is incredibly good. Maybe keep the Disable Device/Sleight of Hand ability at level 1, and put the combat option at level 7 or 8.

A combat check once per round (also, the heck is a combat check? The attack roll?)? Given how many times the Gunslinger will be attacking per round, that is paltry. In addition, taking 10 isn't even that powerful an ability, when you think about it.

The ability to get an extra attack is quite good, and this has no penalties. Maybe add a -1 to every attack in the routine when you use this?

Okay.

This is the Kensai's ability (the Kensai's primary ability). But far better, because you don't have to pay anything for it.

A +10 weapon is 200,000 gold. That's 77% of your WBL at level 16 when you get this, and it's not even your primary class feature. This needs to be toned way down.

Given that Roland never had flame shooting superguns, I would instead make it a simple enhancement bonus, no special abilities. Something like a +1 enhancement at level 1 or 2, with it increasing by 1 every other level.

The Kensai doesn't have to pay, I am fairly sure (AFB so I am not positive). So, it's the same as the Kensai ability, but not the same because it only allows ranged weapons, whereas the Kensai can use any weapon they have. Okay, I can tone it down.

This should be "Locate Object spell, targeting the gun".

Also unsure exactly why they're getting a +20 speed boost.

No, it's supposed to be Locate Object in general. There isn't really a way to reflect Ka in D&D terms, but King does describe it as leading their actions and showing them the way, which is why I added Locate Object. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's the best you can really do in D&D.
The +20 foot speed boost was the original ability, before I added the guns and such. I can remove it.

Wait, is this always on, or just when he's using the previous benefits of the ability? If it's the former, that's too good. If it's the latter, that's okay.

It was always on (that is why it says at any time), but I could include a hard cap on the bonus, if you think that is necessary.

I'm not remembering where Roland could move like an Olympic sprinter. I don't believe this ability is particularly overpowered (although it is pretty good), but I'm curious why you put all of the movement stuff in this class.

Who says he is moving like an olympic sprinter? Rather, he is moving with incredible speed, but that is hardly like an olympic sprinter. Well, I'll be honest, if you only had the ability to full attack, there would be no movement happening at all, if there were to be optimum damage output. I wanted to keep there being some movement, since Roland does run and shoot several times.

As in-combat healing, this isn't going to see any use, but okay.

What else are you using your swift actions for? Besides the above ability, obviously.

The ability to automatically crit is incredibly good. Probably too good.

Charisma mod times per day? At 15th level? Yeah, no. I mean, I can kind of see what you are saying, but the attack still has to hit the opponent, and they still have to confirm the critical hit. Maybe I should make it only auto-confirm the crit?

That's a pretty blatant lie. I would give up two caster levels on a Zen Archer build to go Cleric 10/Gunslinger 10.

Reducing the caster level progression isn't a bad idea. In fact, it's probably necessary, now that I think of it.

[TravelLog]

Combat Expertise or Combat Reflexes might be worthwhile replacements for one/both of the entry req. feats.

[unosarta]

Combat Expertise or Combat Reflexes might be worthwhile replacements for one/both of the entry req. feats.

I like Combat Reflexes more.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Which is, looking at your comments, pretty much nothing. Not that I have a problem with that at all, I am sure there are a lot of problems, but you know.

I wouldn't have bothered to look it over if I didn't like it.

Have you looked at the fluff section? This class was made for a campaign setting (it must be noted that it is not my campaign setting). The author of that campaign setting gave me those classes. I was working with what I was given. However, I am not sure I can see exactly how you would want me to make the classes synergize with the features and still have this class not be like, you know, really freaking long.

Er. No, I didn't (I have a tendency to skip straight to crunch when critiquing).

Still, that's not a very good argument. You already have Cleric progression in here. Add in progression for some Paladin (Smite Evil) and Knight (Fighting Challenge/Test of Mettle) stuff. Give Paladin's the Ranged Smite Evil as a bonus feat. There are plenty of touches you can add that wouldn't make it incredibly long.

What exactly do you mean? There is nothing stating that a Knight cannot use firearms, if they have proficiency, and Paladins have a feat (although I honestly don't agree that that feat should be necessary) that allows them to make ranged smite attacks.

The entire Knight class is built around tanking and has absolutely no support for that style, which makes it incredibly hard to make an effective ranged Knight. It's possible, but that doesn't mean it'll be fun or effective.

I could make a decent ranged Paladin with some optimization, but that requires feats.

What exactly makes you think the classes will suck for 6 levels before entering this class? Because their abilities do not precisely synergize with the weapon they use? And what about Paladins who want to use guns anyway? What answer do you have for them? Just suck it up and use a melee weapon?

Because you are literally losing every single feat you have in the first 6 levels, on two classes that aren't great to begin with. Feats are the lifeblood of a melee character. The feats you do get aren't that good. Two-weapon fighting is also pretty horrible until you move up the feat tree a bit and reduce the penalties some more. Rapid reload is bleh.

I can see this argument. What feats do you think could easily and realistically replace them?

I wouldn't replace them with anything, honestly. You already need to spend a feat to get proficiency with a firearm; adding other feats on top of that is incredibly severe.

So, what is your solution? Honestly, that is more of a problem with the lack of skills of those classes in general, in my opinion, rather than a fault in the class prerequisites. If any Paladin wants to enter a class in which they have more than one skill as a requirement, they are going to have to spend most of their skill points. That is just a fault of the fact that Paladins do not have any skill points.

Yes, so you adjust the skill prerequisites to match. 4 ranks in a cross-class skill that none of the logical entries get is pretty bad. 9 ranks in Diplomacy is probably enough, honestly. Any of these classes, with Int 10, gets 18 skill ranks over the course of those 6 levels. 9 Diplomacy ranks gives them enough skill points to invest in other things.

Because, if you look at the Firearm rules that I linked in the post, the exotic weapons are quite powerful, and worth the feat. In addition, the creator of those firearm rules told me that keeping the exotic worth a feat would be a good idea, which I agree with.

They're okay, but they're nonscaling and require you to eat actions to reload, which are huge problems (same problems a crossbow-focused character faces). An increase of 1d8 to 1d12 or even 2d12 becomes pretty minor as you move up in levels. I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not thinking it would break anything.

Overpowered? Seriously? A +4 ability score bonus is overpowered? I can change the type, but seriously, that is nothing. And, I'll be honest, it fits with the class.

Yes, overpowered. This breaks WBL by stacking with all other modifiers. Let's say a 9th level character spends 8000 gp on two +2 items (pretty reasonable). This turns those into a +6, which is the entirety of his WBL for one +6 item at 9th level. Attribute boosts are very, very good, because they apply a lot of benefits to pretty much everything across the board.

And how does it fit into the class? Should a Fighter get a Strength bonus? The Cleric a Wis bonus? Should the Monk get a crapload of bonuses?

That is not pathfinder stuff, it is the pathfinder definition for what would otherwise be a long a stupid list of combat abilities. Seriously, I mention that it is how it is defined in pathfinder, and then go ahead and define it. There is no reason to be saying that it is "Pathfinder stuff" when it is explicitly not. Also, where is your definition of "obviously a 3.5 class" coming from, because I don't know about you, but I haven't defined it as any system base at all, besides d20 with 3.5 feats, which Pathfinder is notorious for using. However, that is not the point, and I digress.

You're using 3.5 skills, which is the first thing I look at if I'm unsure of which system something is made for. You then go on to list all of the stuff anyway, so the use of the words "combat maneuver" threw me for a loop. I wasn't calling it "Pathfinder" in a derogatory manner, it just confused me.

If you dislike it, what would you suggest to replace it?

Hm. Maybe allow them to cast a touch spell on a gun, giving the benefits of the spell to every cartridge in the gun?

A combat check once per round (also, the heck is a combat check? The attack roll?)? Given how many times the Gunslinger will be attacking per round, that is paltry. In addition, taking 10 isn't even that powerful an ability, when you think about it.

Er. Yeah, mistyped that.

I disagree, though. Taking 10 on an attack roll (even only one a round) allows you to hit consistently, which is very important in combats that last five rounds, like most D&D ones. At the absolute least, it should be balanced against the other ability that allows you to take 10 (or 11, in that case) on an attack roll.

The Kensai doesn't have to pay, I am fairly sure (AFB so I am not positive). So, it's the same as the Kensai ability, but not the same because it only allows ranged weapons, whereas the Kensai can use any weapon they have. Okay, I can tone it down.

Have the book right in front of me. Kensai have to pay a scaling XP cost with every increase.

No, it's supposed to be Locate Object in general. There isn't really a way to reflect Ka in D&D terms, but King does describe it as leading their actions and showing them the way, which is why I added Locate Object. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's the best you can really do in D&D.

Hm. Fair enough.

The +20 foot speed boost was the original ability, before I added the guns and such. I can remove it.

Doesn't bug me spectacularly, I was just wondering how it fit into the inspiration of the class.

It was always on (that is why it says at any time), but I could include a hard cap on the bonus, if you think that is necessary.

It's included as part of the ability, so I was uncertain. Yes, I would put a hard cap, maybe (class level), on it. Classes only get more attacks (and thus more chances to miss) as you go up in level.

Who says he is moving like an olympic sprinter? Rather, he is moving with incredible speed, but that is hardly like an olympic sprinter. Well, I'll be honest, if you only had the ability to full attack, there would be no movement happening at all, if there were to be optimum damage output. I wanted to keep there being some movement, since Roland does run and shoot several times.

Previous speed increase meant you could move 225 ft. in 6 seconds. Works out to 11.43 m/s. Means you could run the 100m in 8.75 seconds, breaking the world record by almost an entire second. Without even taking the Run feat or any other boosts.

Still, it does make sense. Alright then.

What else are you using your swift actions for? Besides the above ability, obviously.

True.

Charisma mod times per day? At 15th level? Yeah, no. I mean, I can kind of see what you are saying, but the attack still has to hit the opponent, and they still have to confirm the critical hit. Maybe I should make it only auto-confirm the crit?

Oh, it doesn't autoconfirm? The language made me think it did. I thought it was an automatic critical and then autoconfirm. That's fine as is, then.

Reducing the caster level progression isn't a bad idea. In fact, it's probably necessary, now that I think of it.

Hm. Maybe 6/10?

[TravelLog]

I don't think it's entirely necessary to lower casting to 6/10. Ruby Knight Vindicator has 8/10 casting, not to mention easy maneuver recovery by giving up turn attempts (which are not that wonderful to begin with). Jade Phoenix Mages also have 8/10 (with Arcane obviously) AND 1/encounter quickening of any 5th or below spell on a successfu melee attack.

[unosarta]

I wouldn't have bothered to look it over if I didn't like it.

Well, you might feel loyalty towards the character and think I am messing it up entirely. *shrug*

Er. No, I didn't (I have a tendency to skip straight to crunch when critiquing).

Still, that's not a very good argument. You already have Cleric progression in here. Add in progression for some Paladin (Smite Evil) and Knight (Fighting Challenge/Test of Mettle) stuff. Give Paladin's the Ranged Smite Evil as a bonus feat. There are plenty of touches you can add that wouldn't make it incredibly long.

Understandable, I do that as well.

Adding in some progression for Paladin and Knight certainly isn't a bad idea.

The entire Knight class is built around tanking and has absolutely no support for that style, which makes it incredibly hard to make an effective ranged Knight. It's possible, but that doesn't mean it'll be fun or effective.

I could make a decent ranged Paladin with some optimization, but that requires feats.

Hm. I could probably make a feat for Ranged Knights, and add it in as an optional prereq.

Okay.

Because you are literally losing every single feat you have in the first 6 levels, on two classes that aren't great to begin with. Feats are the lifeblood of a melee character. The feats you do get aren't that good. Two-weapon fighting is also pretty horrible until you move up the feat tree a bit and reduce the penalties some more. Rapid reload is bleh.

I already replaced them with Combat Reflexes and Point Blank Shot, if that offsets anything (probably doesn't).

I wouldn't replace them with anything, honestly. You already need to spend a feat to get proficiency with a firearm; adding other feats on top of that is incredibly severe.

Okay. I can see that.

Yes, so you adjust the skill prerequisites to match. 4 ranks in a cross-class skill that none of the logical entries get is pretty bad. 9 ranks in Diplomacy is probably enough, honestly. Any of these classes, with Int 10, gets 18 skill ranks over the course of those 6 levels. 9 Diplomacy ranks gives them enough skill points to invest in other things.

Fine.

They're okay, but they're nonscaling and require you to eat actions to reload, which are huge problems (same problems a crossbow-focused character faces). An increase of 1d8 to 1d12 or even 2d12 becomes pretty minor as you move up in levels. I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not thinking it would break anything.

Still, it is the creator's wish, and I am not going to go against him. I also see where your argument, but I can't really do anything.

Yes, overpowered. This breaks WBL by stacking with all other modifiers. Let's say a 9th level character spends 8000 gp on two +2 items (pretty reasonable). This turns those into a +6, which is the entirety of his WBL for one +6 item at 9th level. Attribute boosts are very, very good, because they apply a lot of benefits to pretty much everything across the board.

And how does it fit into the class? Should a Fighter get a Strength bonus? The Cleric a Wis bonus? Should the Monk get a crapload of bonuses?

So, if I made it enhancement, it would change that, yes?

Because Roland is just stronger and faster. Because the Priest is just wiser and has more personality. Because they are just better.

You're using 3.5 skills, which is the first thing I look at if I'm unsure of which system something is made for. You then go on to list all of the stuff anyway, so the use of the words "combat maneuver" threw me for a loop. I wasn't calling it "Pathfinder" in a derogatory manner, it just confused me.

Well, it is easier to say than writing all of those things, and it helps people who already have experience with Pathfinder. *shrug*

Hm. Maybe allow them to cast a touch spell on a gun, giving the benefits of the spell to every cartridge in the gun?

Maaaybe? Isn't that what Third Step does, but with only one spell? I could do it, but I would probably have to restrict the spell level. Also, Clerics really don't get any good Touch spells.

Er. Yeah, mistyped that.

I disagree, though. Taking 10 on an attack roll (even only one a round) allows you to hit consistently, which is very important in combats that last five rounds, like most D&D ones. At the absolute least, it should be balanced against the other ability that allows you to take 10 (or 11, in that case) on an attack roll.

The only other effect that is similar is a Crusader Stance, which does the exact same thing, only slightly better.

Have the book right in front of me. Kensai have to pay a scaling XP cost with every increase.

Hrm, didn't know that.

Doesn't bug me spectacularly, I was just wondering how it fit into the inspiration of the class.

Oh. I will probably still remove it, since the ability is awkward with that wording as well as the other effects.

It's included as part of the ability, so I was uncertain. Yes, I would put a hard cap, maybe (class level), on it. Classes only get more attacks (and thus more chances to miss) as you go up in level.

I was thinking a hard cap at +5. +level is still a lot.

Previous speed increase meant you could move 225 ft. in 6 seconds. Works out to 11.43 m/s. Means you could run the 100m in 8.75 seconds, breaking the world record by almost an entire second. Without even taking the Run feat or any other boosts.

Still, it does make sense. Alright then.

I don't think you can do swift actions at the same time as full round actions, although I am not sure about that. The Run feat out does that at the same time, but slightly better. *shrug* I could add that you can't use it at the same turn that you move.

Oh, it doesn't autoconfirm? The language made me think it did. I thought it was an automatic critical and then autoconfirm. That's fine as is, then.

I didn't intend it to autoconfirm. The wording isn't necessarily nebulous, so I am uncertain on that, but I will add that it doesn't autoconfirm.

Hm. Maybe 6/10?

Seems fine by me.

I don't think it's entirely necessary to lower casting to 6/10. Ruby Knight Vindicator has 8/10 casting, not to mention easy maneuver recovery by giving up turn attempts (which are not that wonderful to begin with). Jade Phoenix Mages also have 8/10 (with Arcane obviously) AND 1/encounter quickening of any 5th or below spell on a successfu melee attack.

Well, let's be honest, Ruby Knight Vindicator is hardly the best balance point.