Growing Up Lawful Evil

[Bodhizen]

I have some thoughts on this matter, but I don't like leading people around by the nose. At the moment, I'm having players who are having difficulties developing backstories for characters who are Lawful Evil and getting from "sweet, innocent, ultimately pliant child" to Lawful Evil adult. Before I share my thoughts with you, I thought that I would like to post here and get some of your thoughts so that I can direct my players [and any other interested party] to this as a resource.

So, how do you imagine someone gets from normal child to Lawful Evil? Please bear in mind, my players understand what Lawful Evil is and what Lawful Evil does, they're just having difficulties in developing believable backstories that would help them to become evil while not eschewing the rule of law.

[Jubal_Barca]

To my mind, the standard one would be the child of a noble or guildsman growing up LE. Not breaking the social conventions within which they've been placed, but finding they can make good use of them to get power over their social inferiors, and enjoying that and continuing to do so. Eventually going from "you are my inferior socially, so give me that toy of yours" through "I am the social superior in this group of children, so I make the rules, first rule is you all do what I say" to getting progressively nastier as they grow up.

[Fhaolan]

I'm having difficulty understanding the question. Being a Lawful Evil child is all about manipulating everyone around you to get what you want despite the damage it does to anyone except you, and discovering that causing that damage to others is fun providing you don't get caught. This strikes me as being perfectly child-like.

The idea that children are naturally 'Good' and need abuse to become 'Evil' is rather naive in my opinion. Children are amoral at the start and gravitate to whatever morality that fulfills their basic needs. If they discover that 'evil' acts get them what they want with the minimum of punishment, they will be evil. If they discover that 'good' acts get them what they want with the minimum of punishment, they will be good. If being 'good' causes them more pain than gain, then the will stop acting good. So on and so forth.

[Bodhizen]

I'm having difficulty understanding the question. Being a Lawful Evil child is all about manipulating everyone around you to get what you want despite the damage it does to anyone except you, and discovering that causing that damage to others is fun providing you don't get caught. This strikes me as being perfectly child-like.

The idea that children are naturally 'Good' and need abuse to become 'Evil' is rather naive in my opinion. Children are amoral at the start and gravitate to whatever morality that fulfills their basic needs. If they discover that 'evil' acts get them what they want with the minimum of punishment, they will be evil. If they discover that 'good' acts get them what they want with the minimum of punishment, they will be good. If being 'good' causes them more pain than gain, then the will stop acting good. So on and so forth.

Fhaolan, the understanding is not that children are inherently good, but that they are pliant. They are able to be molded and could gravitate toward good just as easily as they gravitate toward evil, given sufficient leeway and examples of behavior to model, as children do. However, the question is geared toward multiple avenues of developing toward evil while still remaining "lawful".

[Zerter]

Uh... they see LE behaviour or do it themselves (as an experiment) and find out they like it. Maybe they get raised in a way in which it's the norm. It's really not that difficult or different from any other way of growing up, Jubal_Barca gives a perfect example.

[Shep]

I imagine the drill seargent who discovers he enjoys the authority and power he hold over recruits could be LE if they enjoyed dominating others vs. just approaching the task as a job of instilling discipline that could save lives on a battlefield. The child doesn't have to be innocent and pliant at first. Some children have bad tendencies from the start. Some children want to dominate others around them even from an early age and they gravitate to positions that grant them authority and power later in life.

A LE character could just as easily be a coward. Peter Pettigrew from the Harry Potter series could be seen as LE. He started out friends with good people, but he ends up following Voldemort out of fear of the consequences of doing otherwise. Compliance with the law even when the law demands turning on your own friends sounds like LE to me.

I think alignment is mostly about perspective and choice. The character could develop the belief as a child that the way to get the biggest rewards in life is exploiting the law in one's own favor, and that the only option in life is to be either the stepper or the one being stepped on. The character could believe that the greater good can only be served by preserving order, even if preserving order means taking extreme measures on occasion. I don't know if Hahn from the Bruce Lee movie "Enter the Dragon" is an example of LE, but I love his quote: "It isn't easy to be totally ruthless. It takes more strength than you might imagine."

Above all, I think a character needs a strong justification for an evil alignment. Fill in the motivation and the back story falls into place.

[Gnaeus]

So, how do you imagine someone gets from normal child to Lawful Evil? Please bear in mind, my players understand what Lawful Evil is and what Lawful Evil does, they're just having difficulties in developing believable backstories that would help them to become evil while not eschewing the rule of law.

A LE character can totally eschew the rule of law. He merely prefers to operate in a lawful (hierarchical, organized) manner. A member of an organized crime family is raised by his family to be Lawful (obey the boss), Evil (when he tells you to break that guys bones), and to break the law. A government assassin is trained by his government to be Lawful (follow orders from superiors), Evil (murder on command) and to break the law if he is outside his own country at the time.

Darth Vader, perhaps the iconic LE character, murders a whole bunch of people to arrive at the secure, orderly empire he desires. Think about when he tells Leia "You are a part of the Rebel Alliance, and a Traitor!" To this guy, daily murder of enemies, innocents, even his own people when they fail him is no big thing. But the thought that someone would be a traitor makes him really angry.

[Drachasor]

I'm having difficulty understanding the question. Being a Lawful Evil child is all about manipulating everyone around you to get what you want despite the damage it does to anyone except you, and discovering that causing that damage to others is fun providing you don't get caught. This strikes me as being perfectly child-like.

The idea that children are naturally 'Good' and need abuse to become 'Evil' is rather naive in my opinion. Children are amoral at the start and gravitate to whatever morality that fulfills their basic needs. If they discover that 'evil' acts get them what they want with the minimum of punishment, they will be evil. If they discover that 'good' acts get them what they want with the minimum of punishment, they will be good. If being 'good' causes them more pain than gain, then the will stop acting good. So on and so forth.

Assuming kids are basically blank slates is also quite naive. We're decidedly NOT blank slates at birth, with a lot of wiring in the brain to cover a lot of things (including empathy). Also, heredity very, very likely plays a significant role as well. Two
kids can grow up in essentially the same environment, yet end up with quite different behaviors.

[Severus]

I think the medieval example works great.

I am a noble/samurai/whatever. I am special and allowed to do whatever I want to you, by law. As long as you do whatever I wish, we're fine. If not, I snick your head off.

[Drachasor]

I think the medieval example works great.

I am a noble/samurai/whatever. I am special and allowed to do whatever I want to you, by law. As long as you do whatever I wish, we're fine. If not, I snick your head off.

Or someone that looks down on non-nobles as insects works too.

Of course, you could have a kid that grew up poor and was determined to use the rules of the people he hated to crush them. Or perhaps that person just has a personal code (that allows for horrific things) and views merely having the code as something that sets him apart from other rabble (or C/N overlords).

Lots of things, really. Honestly though, what do the players view all kids as the same?

[Iceforge]

Having worked with children a lot the last few years, mainly age 6 to 9, I'd say that going from normal child to lawful evil adult only requires very little:

1) Nobody to strongly enforce values, but rather enforce specific rules, making it as if everything is okay, as long as it is within the preset rules

2) Nobody to explain nuances of rules or enforce the INTENT of the rules, but instead rules are only ever enforced by the letter

There....thats it.

Not nice to say, but there is something inheriently evil about many kids, and it seems sometimes as it is mainly the disapproval and consequences imposed by adults that seem to make them behave and gain more socially acceptable behaviours.

Thats just my view.

If the parents are not strictly good, but more selfish in nature, you know, the type who will pocket the money if they get too much back in change at the store and such things, then well, the child will adapt those values.

Not the most popular view, I imagine, as the view that children are inheriently innocent angels that get corrupted over time seems much more popular

[brann miekka]

Well since this is a discussion about your pc's I kinda wanna know what they're playing. Cuz a fighter and a wizard grow up completely different

[aazru]

Anyone who has dealt with kids knows they are Chaotic Evil! Add some above average intelligence and you have it.

[Bodhizen]

Iceforge,

Working with children, I agree that there are certain factors that could allow children to become lawful evil and that you've listed a couple, but I think that produces children who are more neutral evil than lawful evil.

Well since this is a discussion about your pc's I kinda wanna know what they're playing. Cuz a fighter and a wizard grow up completely different

The character that I'm currently coaching through her backstory is a half-elven fighter who's growing up in a world that has nearly eradicated evil. She wants to work out a compelling backstory for her character where the character still respects the rule of law, yet has turned to evil.

Playing Lawful Evil characters is relatively easy. Determining how they got that way is somewhat more complicated.

[Jubal_Barca]

Lawful Evil in a LE (or gritty TN even) world is easy. LE in a Good world is much tougher.

I suspect a psychological hatred for something in particular would be a good start in your case. For example, the character has a major hatred for humans or elves (humans being the obvious, for their clear inferiorities) and in the belief that the purity and ancient laws of the elves must be upheld, they interpret this as meaning that humans are corrupting elven purity, thus must be eradicated. The parentage thing makes it more poignant, because it shows a clear choice for one parent (perhaps the human parent was away a lot and they felt neglected, something like that). They will still uphold the law, but within that system they will do everything they can to try and purge society of humans and human ways.

That's the other main sort of LE: there's LE in a LE system, and a lawful cause turning to evil because it cares more about The Cause than about the life of sentient beings.

[Gnaeus]

The character that I'm currently coaching through her backstory is a half-elven fighter who's growing up in a world that has nearly eradicated evil. She wants to work out a compelling backstory for her character where the character still respects the rule of law, yet has turned to evil.

She was once a part of the forces that fought evil. She was bringing in a suspect, but they offered a bribe, and she needed the money to save her family. Later, they offered her another bribe for her cooperation and threatened to expose her if she refused. Soon, she was a dirty cop/soldier. One of her co-workers found out, and she had to resort to more evil activity to silence him. One step at a time, she shifted neutral, then evil. She doesn't wake up in the morning planning to do evil, but she is very good at rationalizing why it is ok to torture someone, just this once.

[Coidzor]

Is the area they're from unstable or highly chaotic, either socially or legally, from war or brigandry or monstrous incursions?

Even if it's just something like being unable to keep track of all of the social interactions and obligations and backstabbing because it's a constantly shifting, pointless dance that does nothing but to weaken the people and cause self-inflicted suffering...

About as common amongst drow renegades, I'd imagine, as ye olde CG types, should be the LE types who realize how borked and stupid their social organization is and how it does nothing but hold the Drow back & needlessly shed their blood when they could actually expand their strength & power and take over the neighbourhood with a bit of organization.

And of course, when one has been hurt in the past, it's easy to start becoming increasingly harsh in bringing law to the lawless.

The character that I'm currently coaching through her backstory is a half-elven fighter who's growing up in a world that has nearly eradicated evil. She wants to work out a compelling backstory for her character where the character still respects the rule of law, yet has turned to evil.

Playing Lawful Evil characters is relatively easy. Determining how they got that way is somewhat more complicated.

Easy. Bringing order to the nancy-namby-pamby ways of the elves that vexed her constantly growing up amongst the tossers if she was raised amongst the elves.

Bringing order to society so that others don't have to share her unpleasant, trapped between worlds upbringing, regardless of whether she had a human, elven, or mixed upbringing (though being a half-elf descended from half-elves would complicate this), and forcing society to accommodate the differing biology of half-elves.

Wanting to force people to be good or practice fidelity is always a surefire path to tyranny as well.

So instead of seeing it as a problem of laws, she sees it as a problem of lack of strength to the laws or a simple problem of lack of laws and organization in that regard.

[Bodhizen]

She was once a part of the forces that fought evil. She was bringing in a suspect, but they offered a bribe, and she needed the money to save her family. Later, they offered her another bribe for her cooperation and threatened to expose her if she refused. Soon, she was a dirty cop/soldier. One of her co-workers found out, and she had to resort to more evil activity to silence him. One step at a time, she shifted neutral, then evil. She doesn't wake up in the morning planning to do evil, but she is very good at rationalizing why it is ok to torture someone, just this once.

She'd thought of that before. That sounds like a shift from Lawful to Neutral before shifting from Good to Evil. Would she not have to ostensibly disregard the law to do whatever it is the criminal is bribing her to do?

[Megaduck]

The character that I'm currently coaching through her backstory is a half-elven fighter who's growing up in a world that has nearly eradicated evil. She wants to work out a compelling backstory for her character where the character still respects the rule of law, yet has turned to evil.

Playing Lawful Evil characters is relatively easy. Determining how they got that way is somewhat more complicated.

The simplest one is for her to wonder why everyone else is climbing the ladder of success but it seems she isn't. She can eventually come to the 'realization' that everyone else is just using the rules to their own advantage and that's how to get ahead in the world.

[Gnaeus]

She'd thought of that before. That sounds like a shift from Lawful to Neutral before shifting from Good to Evil. Would she not have to ostensibly disregard the law to do whatever it is the criminal is bribing her to do?

You can be Lawful (the alignment) while breaking the law. Lawful (the alignment) is about your position on order versus chaos. It may but does not have to include any loyalty to the legal system in her jurisdiction. Again, a member of an organized crime family could break the law every single day of their adult life, but still be extremely Lawful (Adhering to a code of behavior, following orders from superiors, expecting rigid loyalty from subordinates etc).

[Bodhizen]

You can be Lawful (the alignment) while breaking the law. Lawful (the alignment) is about your position on order versus chaos. It may but does not have to include any loyalty to the legal system in her jurisdiction. Again, a member of an organized crime family could break the law every single day of their adult life, but still be extremely Lawful (Adhering to a code of behavior, following orders from superiors, expecting rigid loyalty from subordinates etc).

While this is true, the scenario you posed was not one of an organized criminal committing a crime; you posed the scenario of her being part of the forces that fought evil. Was it not implied that she was a follower of the legal system by acting as an agent of it?

[Gnaeus]

While this is true, the scenario you posed was not one of an organized criminal committing a crime; you posed the scenario of her being part of the forces that fought evil. Was it not implied that she was a follower of the legal system by acting as an agent of it?

Maybe. Maybe she was always a loyal member of her team/country who just took a wrong turn. Maybe she justified her evil actions with the good that she was otherwise doing, but still considered herself a good member of her operation. Maybe she worked to corrupt other members in her force, seeking to change the entire hierarchical operation to one that worked more in her benefit. Maybe, instead of being corrupt, she was too zealous in her duties, and killed people she was supposed to bring in. Alignment is not as restrictive as you make it out to be. I could make half a dozen different LE characters whose takes on their alignment were all very different.

For another take on LE consider a hypothetical unscrupulous businessperson running or operating in a big firm. If that person realizes that the costs of paying a fine (say for dumping toxic waste) are higher than the costs of following a rule, they are perfectly willing to break the law. They are Evil (they don't care how many kids get sick/die from their activities) but also Lawful. They are organized in their business activity, they pay their taxes, support their government. They even obey that illegal dumping law, by paying the fine. They might buy off a judge or a politician (although they will try to do this in a legal manner), but they are never going to brawl with the government inspector monitoring their plant.

Characters of this alignment see a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor. Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct, and loyal soldiers who enjoy the act of killing.

Like Lawful Good Paladins, Lawful Evil characters may sometimes find themselves faced with the dilemma of whether to obey law or evil when the two conflict. However, their issues with Law versus Evil are more concerned with "Will I get caught?" versus "How does this benefit me?"

[brann miekka]

Hmmm okay, how's about during the war to eradicate evil she worked as a merc to some or other company who in general are LN if they exclusivly work for the govt or TN if they're completely freelance. now since the evil is nearing it's end the company took a turn from knights in shining armor to the only work they could find, which with evil gone they only fight those who are left, and over time he/she stopped seeing the people he/she ran down as people but as work and another days pay, eventually becoming dull to the sensation of cleaving down a riotous peasent who just wants a decent wage, then later starting to enjoy it. he/She remains lawful because he/she's still part of a strict military outfit but is Evil because he/she no longer cares who's impaled on the end of his/her spear, just that he/she's getting paid for it.

Hope this helps.

[Bodhizen]

Hmmm okay, how's about during the war to eradicate evil she worked as a merc to some or other company who in general are TN, now since the evil is nearing it's end the company took a turn from knights in shining armor to the only work they could find, which with evil gone us only to fight those who are left, and over time he/she stopped seeing the people he/she ran down as people but as work and another days pay, eventually becoming dull to the sensation of cleaving down a riotous peasent then later starting to enjoy it. he/She remains lawful because he/she's still part of a strict military outfit but is Evil because he/she no longer cares who's impaled on the end of his/her spear, just that he/she's getting paid for it.

Hope this helps.

It's a nice idea, thank you. It won't work in the context of this game, unfortunately, because the war to eradicate evil happened 150 years prior to the current setting and most of the mopping up has already happened. Still, it remains an excellent idea.

[Jubal_Barca]

What about my idea?

[Coidzor]

Being especially power hungry, particularly in regards to controlling others would do for the evil and then it just needs to be of sufficiently ordered and organized and lawful bent.

[Bodhizen]

Maybe. Maybe she was always a loyal member of her team/country who just took a wrong turn. Maybe she justified her evil actions with the good that she was otherwise doing, but still considered herself a good member of her operation. Maybe she worked to corrupt other members in her force, seeking to change the entire hierarchical operation to one that worked more in her benefit. Maybe, instead of being corrupt, she was too zealous in her duties, and killed people she was supposed to bring in. Alignment is not as restrictive as you make it out to be. I could make half a dozen different LE characters whose takes on their alignment were all very different.

I believe that you're making more Neutral Evil characters than Lawful Evil. You're correct that the alignments are not as restrictive as some believe, but you're making some assumptions about my understanding of the alignment spectrum that are unfounded. Having said that, I've already posed the idea to my player that her character was too zealous in her duties, a concept that she found to have merit. :)

For another take on LE consider a hypothetical unscrupulous businessperson running or operating in a big firm. If that person realizes that the costs of paying a fine (say for dumping toxic waste) are higher than the costs of following a rule, they are perfectly willing to break the law. They are Evil (they don't care how many kids get sick/die from their activities) but also Lawful. They are organized in their business activity, they pay their taxes, support their government. They even obey that illegal dumping law, by paying the fine. They might buy off a judge or a politician (although they will try to do this in a legal manner), but they are never going to brawl with the government inspector monitoring their plant.

Yes, these are things a Lawful Evil character could do. I was not looking for suggestions on what Lawful Evil characters could do, though I appreciate your input. I'm sure there are other threads I could look at for suggestions on how characters whose alignments are established as Lawful Evil would act, given specific situations. I'm looking to examine why Lawful Evil characters (in the context of a primarily Good world, if you want to get into specifics) became Lawful Evil. I'm looking at the principle means for characters developing into the Lawful Evil archetype (again, while respecting the rule of law, if you want to get into specifics).

[Bodhizen]

Jubal, here's my feedback on your idea.

Lawful Evil in a LE (or gritty TN even) world is easy. LE in a Good world is much tougher.

I suspect a psychological hatred for something in particular would be a good start in your case. For example, the character has a major hatred for humans or elves (humans being the obvious, for their clear inferiorities) and in the belief that the purity and ancient laws of the elves must be upheld, they interpret this as meaning that humans are corrupting elven purity, thus must be eradicated. The parentage thing makes it more poignant, because it shows a clear choice for one parent (perhaps the human parent was away a lot and they felt neglected, something like that). They will still uphold the law, but within that system they will do everything they can to try and purge society of humans and human ways.

That's the other main sort of LE: there's LE in a LE system, and a lawful cause turning to evil because it cares more about The Cause than about the life of sentient beings.

This is certainly a valid justification for a Lawful Evil character growing up Lawful Evil (in a Lawful Evil society).

[KineticDiplomat]

Well, lawful evil is generally speaking, is all about exercising power against others in a manner within the constraints of a system, for express purpose of causing hurt or deliberately hurting others to an unreasonable degree for personal goals.

Notably, a lot of this is contextual: depending on the campaign setting, it might be perfectly reasonable that a property owner uses slaves while staying lawful neutral - however, the property owner who deliberately makes slaves lives miserable for the joy of it is likely lawful evil. In another setting, any form of slavery might be completely evil.

Some things of course are immutable: no amount of rationalization will turn rape from evil to neutral, even if there is a law that allows someone to...though you might find that its quite possible to slip into lawful evil behavior while not being a lawful evil character. Napoleonic armies, despite official condemning rape, usually tacitly understood that after a sucessful siege the cnquerors were going to indulge in a great deal of looting and raping, and the leaders allowed it. A few days later those same crimes would get soldiers hung. That would be a case where an entire organization, on specific cases, was lawfully evil, despite being more of a lawful neutral the vast majority of the time.

With that in mind, power: Some other posts have covered the classic "born a noble" approach. The key to that one isn't that the noble looks down on the peasantry and makes them work long days, the key is that said noble learns to enjoy oppressing them and deliberately makes their lives miserable for his/her own enjoyment or unreasonable advancement

However, there are many other forms: You might want to play someone whose very lack of power has turned them nasty, since they know the system will let them and its their only outage. The 20 year DMV clerk who has never been promoted and delights in making you refill forms, or closes down in the middle of a transaction, just because it makes your day harder is lawful evil. They know they are being deliberately nasty and that the system will protect their nastiness - indeed, that if you lean across the counter and clock them, the police will come for you.

Imagine a fantastic equivalent: you were a peasant all your life, pretty much powerless, then someone conscripted, gave you a spear and said "its ok to kill goblins, or peasants who don't listen to lord taxalot..but by god, the knights, sergeants, and squires will crush you if you step out of line, scum." You might just take a shining to helping the tax collectors...you get to bully and threaten people, when usually it syou who gets bullied and threatened. Even after your out adventuring, it can be a very formative experience.

People who had to go through a lot to get their power might want to make sure everyone below them goes through the same thing, because its the system! And I had to do it! "look, its rite of passage that we starve and beat you for one year, then your one of the guys...we get to have fun tormenting you, you get to advance in the club. Look, we all had to do it, and when its your turn, you can pass it on."

Or, we could go with something much simpler - they just like doing "evil" things and have found an outlet. I have met perfectly rational, moral, intelligent,well-adjusted members of society who get a thrill out of killing people society says they can. Your character could simply be one of these.

This does not preclude them from achieving good things, ironically - think thusly, a knight charges through a horde of bandits, killing them all, inherently making the road safe. When asked why he did it (assuming a truthful answer):

Lawful Good - "They were a threat to the innocent!"
Lawful Neutral - "They were bandits on the king's road, and the roads must stay open for trade"
Lawful Evil - "Because, honestly, I quiet enjoyed killing them and the king says its ok."

[Fax Celestis]

So, how do you imagine someone gets from normal child to Lawful Evil? Please bear in mind, my players understand what Lawful Evil is and what Lawful Evil does, they're just having difficulties in developing believable backstories that would help them to become evil while not eschewing the rule of law.

Pretty much exactly like this guy:

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