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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (WIP, PEACH)

    Looks great. Just two things for now. You need to specify if the costs are overall or additional for the elemental bullets, as in are the costs cumulative or are those the sole costs for each stage?

    Second, for the electricity secondary effect, be sure specify that it's CL/10 rounded up.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (WIP, PEACH)

    You might want to change the wording for the sharpshooting ability somehow, because as is, if the marksman were to get, say an attack against any number of enemies within range from a maneuver or something, they could give them up for an insane crit multiplier.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by TravelLog View Post
    Looks great. Just two things for now. You need to specify if the costs are overall or additional for the elemental bullets, as in are the costs cumulative or are those the sole costs for each stage?

    Second, for the electricity secondary effect, be sure specify that it's CL/10 rounded up.
    Yeah, I guess I need to clarify those things. Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrthain View Post
    You might want to change the wording for the sharpshooting ability somehow, because as is, if the marksman were to get, say an attack against any number of enemies within range from a maneuver or something, they could give them up for an insane crit multiplier.
    Hmm, yes I suppose it should be multiple attacks against a single opponent.


    Okay I shall be editing in the additional techniques and other corrections now.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (WIP, PEACH)

    Be sure to mention whether rounding is up or down for the durations of the elemental bullet secondary effects (not just electricity).

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Added a feat and a craft skill.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    I'm also of the opinion that you should add some weapon rules. This class is based around fire-arms, so choosing this class while not knowing what it's main thing will be like can completely ruin a character. For instance, being forced to play a pistolier with quick-draw and belts and belts full of pistols might sound fun at first, but when you realize that each of those guns needs to be enchanted separately, and that you're going to have to mind your budget because bullets and powder are expensive, and that you'll have to adjust all your attack modifiers to the gun you happen to draw on some iterative attack...
    (This scenario would be for single-shot firearms; the kind where you take a long time reloading, so you can't afford to reload in combat and have to draw a new weapon for each and every attack you make).

    And yet, that's what you're likely to get in most fantasy settings: Slow, clunky black-powder weapons.
    Revolver guns, however, could serve as a repeater version of the classic black-powder guns. But will your GM include those in her setting? You don't know...

    And then there's damage. Damage can be make or break. Some 3.+ sources have a pistol dealing 3d6 damage, for instance, while others have it deal 1d8. Quite a difference, there, and it wouldn't be completely fair to have the GM decide on a whim what power the main weapon of her players should have. She did not make the class, after all; you did. So you know what kind of power the weapons for this class should have. She doesn't.

    On the whole, I really love this class, by the way. Good work!

    Edit: Personally, I would probably not allow the warforged henchman companion in any of my stories. It's just simply too powerful an ability, and has the rather large risk of completely trivializing someone else's complete character with a single class feature. You don't want to be that player who is just as valuable to the group as someone else's pet is.
    Last edited by Dryad; 2011-09-15 at 10:17 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    I'm also of the opinion that you should add some weapon rules. This class is based around fire-arms, so choosing this class while not knowing what it's main thing will be like can completely ruin a character. For instance, being forced to play a pistolier with quick-draw and belts and belts full of pistols might sound fun at first, but when you realize that each of those guns needs to be enchanted separately, and that you're going to have to mind your budget because bullets and powder are expensive, and that you'll have to adjust all your attack modifiers to the gun you happen to draw on some iterative attack...
    (This scenario would be for single-shot firearms; the kind where you take a long time reloading, so you can't afford to reload in combat and have to draw a new weapon for each and every attack you make).

    And yet, that's what you're likely to get in most fantasy settings: Slow, clunky black-powder weapons.
    Revolver guns, however, could serve as a repeater version of the classic black-powder guns. But will your GM include those in her setting? You don't know...
    Actually this class normally does not have to deal with the problems of one-shot pistols since he can just shoot mana bullets instead of normal bullets, hence he does not need to reload. The only time he would be forced to use normal bullets is when he is inside an antimagic field. But yeah, I guess I have to take that into consideration. I do have some ideas in my head but I do what to spend more time to think things through as gun rules, as you said, can make or break the class.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    And then there's damage. Damage can be make or break. Some 3.+ sources have a pistol dealing 3d6 damage, for instance, while others have it deal 1d8. Quite a difference, there, and it wouldn't be completely fair to have the GM decide on a whim what power the main weapon of her players should have. She did not make the class, after all; you did. So you know what kind of power the weapons for this class should have. She doesn't.
    Good point. This is really one of the things that are making me think things through before making my own gun rules. Other than damage alone, I have to consider the overall abilities for balance, so yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    On the whole, I really love this class, by the way. Good work!
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    Edit: Personally, I would probably not allow the warforged henchman companion in any of my stories. It's just simply too powerful an ability, and has the rather large risk of completely trivializing someone else's complete character with a single class feature. You don't want to be that player who is just as valuable to the group as someone else's pet is.
    Actually I have that thoughts as well when making this class. But I'm kinda attached with the idea so I stuck with it. But I do like to hear playtest feedback before I remove it. Maybe even just tone it down, like push back the level progression and lower the maximum level or put a maximum time a player could use it, or maybe even both, rather than remove it entirely.

    Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Glad to see there are people who like the class even though it was my first try. I guess the main thing I have to learn more is balance.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Actually I have that thoughts as well when making this class. But I'm kinda attached with the idea so I stuck with it. But I do like to hear playtest feedback before I remove it. Maybe even just tone it down, like push back the level progression and lower the maximum level or put a maximum time a player could use it, or maybe even both, rather than remove it entirely.

    Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Glad to see there are people who like the class even though it was my first try. I guess the main thing I have to learn more is balance.
    You're welcome. :)
    Yeah; toning down the henchman has its own problems... I mean; downscaling the power is good, but since D20 is linear, downscaling means you actually scale down everything. And that might cause problems; if your henchmen can't hit anything, it's also pretty much useless... Linear progression does have the problem of being make-or-break in that respect.

    As for learning balance: That's a tricky bit as well. You'll have to find your own comfort-zone in balance, really, because D20 is not in any way a balanced game. There are huge power-differences between classes in core alone (Druid versus Fighter, just to name one example), and I'm not even talking about the many, many other sourcebooks out there, the one even more exotic and powerful than the previous one. (Sadly, new books always raise the power-level a notch because they add so much more, and most people have a little trouble adding features that don't actually add to a class' power).

    My personal comfort zone is power level martial, with some extremely limited casting tossed in.
    But that doesn't go for most people, and I expect most members of GitP will even find that underpowered, very weak, or something along those lines. Me, personally: I like where monks, fighters, rogues and rangers are at, and just wish more classes would be closer to that level in power.

    However, RPGs are games you never play alone. If you want to create a class you want to play yourself (as I expect is the main reason for most people making classes) you should really pay attention to what power 'levels' other people in your gaming group are comfortable with.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Hmm, you are right. Well I wouldn't worry too much of the offensive output of the supporter, as I thought of it more of just as a diversion of sorts. So yeah, I think putting a time limit is the more appropriate adjustment.

    As for balance, yeah it is kinda hard and you are right with it being relative to what classes you want to compare your work against. What I'm concerned about also is how different abilities affect the overall power level. But with all the comments and critiques I think I'll get the hang of this bit by bit. So thanks.

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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    I like the class, but have a question about the supporter ability, why give them a small warforged instead of a warforged scout? It solve problems with ability scores and being shrunk and is a pre-existing player race.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    I like the class, but have a question about the supporter ability, why give them a small warforged instead of a warforged scout? It solve problems with ability scores and being shrunk and is a pre-existing player race.
    That's cause I didn't know of that 'til you pointed it out. And yeah, you could easily substitute that for ease of bookkeeping and stuff. But that's if you don't take the Command style.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    The Epic Magic Marksman

    Hit Die
    d8

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level
    6 + Int modifier

    AC Bonus
    The Marksman's bonus to Armor Class when unarmored increases by +1 every 3 levels higher than 20th.

    Reflex Shooting (Ex)
    The epic Marksman gains additional +1 to initiative at level 24 and every 3 levels thereafter (27th and so on).

    Mana Surge (Su)
    The epic Marksman gains additional +1 to his mana recovered per round at level 24 and every 6 levels thereafter (30th and so on).

    Bonus Feats
    The epic Marksman gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic Magic Marksman feats) every four levels after 20th.

    Epic Magic Marksman Bonus Feat List
    Blinding Speed, Combat Archery, Death of Enemies, Distant Shot, Epic Endurance, Epic Prowess, Energy Resistance, Epic Speed, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Fast Healing, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Manyshot, Instant Reload, Perfect Health, Swarm of Arrows, Superior Initiative, Uncanny Accuracy.

    Level AC Bonus Special
    21st
    +6
    -
    22nd
    +6
    -
    23rd
    +7
    Reflex Shooting +6
    24th
    +7
    Mana Surge +4, Bonus Feat
    26th
    +7
    -
    26th
    +8
    -
    27th
    +8
    Reflex Shooting +7
    28th
    +8
    Bonus Feat
    29th
    +9
    -
    30th
    +9
    Mana Surge +5


    Firearms

    These are the firearms rules for the class, borrowed heavily from Pathfinder and Dragon, but simplified to suit better to the Magic Marksman and the campaigns they would be playing in.


    FIREARMS IN YOUR CAMPAIGN

    Firearms in your campaign can be categorized by their presence as follows:

    Very Rare Guns: Early firearms are rare; advanced firearms do not exist. Firearms in this type of campaign are ancient relics of lost civilizations, and most are magitech in nature, or have just been made by revolutionary tinkers and inventors. Only secret organizations like the Magic Marksmen can be seen carrying them around and know how to operate and produce them. In some cases, the knowledge of how they are made is lost, and firearms can only be recovered from ruins or found being sold in the underground markets, at prices 2 times the prices listed below.

    Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. They are mass-produced by small guilds, lone gunsmiths, dwarven clans, or maybe even a nation or two—the secret is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses guns. Early firearms are available, but are relatively rare, and they are considered exotic, except for the Magic Marksman and other classes who are adept at wielding them. Advanced firearms may exist, but are very rare. The guns in this setting use prices listed below.

    Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early and advanced firearms as well as their ammunition cost 50% of the amount listed below to purchase or craft.

    Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 20% of the cost listed below.



    FIREARMS RULES


    Firearm Proficiency: The Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat allows you to use all firearms without penalty. A non-proficient character takes the standard –4 penalty on attack rolls with firearms. The Magic Marksman is proficient in all types of firearms in all types of settings.

    For other classes, even though the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat grants you proficiency with all firearms, anytime you take a feat that modifies a single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload), you must still pick one specific type of firearm (such as musket, axe musket, blunderbuss, pistol, or double pistol) for that feat to affect.

    Capacity: A firearm's capacity is the number of shots it can hold at one time. When making a full-attack action, you may fire a firearm as many times in a round as you have attacks, up to this limit, unless you can reload the weapon as a swift or free action while making a full-attack action.

    Concealing Firearms: Like light weapons and hand crossbows, one-handed firearms are easy to conceal on your person.

    Inappropriately Sized Firearms: You cannot make optimum use of a firearm that is not properly sized for you. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the firearm. If you are not proficient with the firearm, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it, the exception being siege firearms and Large or larger creatures. In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness.

    Shields: While Magic Marksmen are not proficient with shields, other classes who are can use a one-handed or two-handed firearms without penalty while carrying shields.

    Fire while Prone: Firearms, like crossbows, can be fired while their wielders are prone.

    Deflecting and Snatching Bullets: The Deflect Arrows feat and the Snatch Arrows feat can be used to deflect bullets, but not pellets shot from a blunderbuss or a shotgun.

    Range and Penetration: Firearms are handled normally; attack rolls are targeted against the AC of the target, with the exception of the blunderbuss. Early firearms have a maximum range of 10 range increments.

    Firearms, Black Powder, and Water: Black powder becomes useless when exposed to water, but powder horns and cartridges protect black powder from exposure. You cannot normally load an early firearm underwater or fire any firearm underwater without magical aid.



    FIREARMS DESCRIPTION

    There are two general categories of firearms: early and advanced.

    Firearms are further divided into one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms. As the category's name implies, one-handed firearms need only one hand to wield and shoot. Two-handed firearms work best when you use two-hands while shooting them. Two-handed firearms can be shot with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll.


    Early Firearms

    Early firearms are typically matchlock, wheellock, or flintlock weapons, and require more finesse and care to use than advanced firearms. Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring a bullet and powder (or other special alchemical substances) to be shoved down the barrel before the weapon is fired. Early firearm ammunition can be loaded from a cartridge, but that cartridge is made of soft material (like paper or cloth) that is torn open so that the contents may be shoved down the barrel.

    Table: Early Firearms
    Firearm
    Cost
    Dmg (S)
    Dmg (M)
    Critical
    Range
    Capacity
    Weight
    Type
    One-Handed Firearms
    Pistol
    500 gp
    1d8
    1d10
    x3
    50 ft
    1
    3 lbs
    Piercing
    Pistol, double barreled
    700 gp
    1d8
    1d10
    x3
    50 ft
    2
    4 lbs
    Piercing
    Pistol, dueling
    2,200 gp
    1d8
    1d10
    x3
    50 ft
    1
    3 lbs
    Piercing
    Two-Handed Firearms
    Arquebus
    100 gp
    1d8
    1d10
    x3
    50 ft
    1
    15 lbs
    Piercing
    Blunderbuss
    400 gp
    1d8
    1d10
    -
    5 ft
    1
    8 lbs
    Piercing
    Carbine
    600 gp
    1d10
    1d12
    x3
    100 ft
    1
    7 lbs
    Piercing
    Musket
    1,000 gp
    1d10
    1d12
    x3
    150 ft
    1
    9 lbs
    Piercing
    Musket, double barreled
    2,000 gp
    1d10
    1d12
    x3
    100 ft
    2
    11 lbs
    Piercing

    Arquebus: Also called hand cannons, arquebus consists of a smooth barrel bound to a wooden stock. They do not have the range or damage capability of muskets, but their simplistic design makes them very cheap. An arquebus uses a bullet and a single dose of black powder as its ammunition.

    Blunderbuss: This weapon fires pellets or a bullet from its trumpet-shaped barrel, making it an effective fowling weapon or close-fighting personal defense weapon. The blunderbuss is unique in that it does not need attack rolls. Instead, all creatures caught in the cone equal to 5 times the range increment get a Reflex Save with a DC of 12 + Dex mod to half the damage, which cannot be negated by abilities such as Evasion. All creatures within the first range increment take 3 times the damage die in damage, all creatures within the second range increment take 2 times the damage die, and all creatures from the third range increment to the fifth suffer 1 damage die in damage. A blunderbuss uses a handful of pellets and 4 doses of black powder as ammunition.

    Carbine: Carbines are almost identical to muskets, except they are shorter, and thus have shorter range. However, the shorter length and lighter weight makes them a favorite in mounted combat, and firing one on a mount doing a double move only suffers a -2 penalty (instead of -4). Also, a character firing from the back of a running mount suffers only -4 penalty (as opposed to -8). A carbine uses a bullet and a single dose of black powder as its ammunition.

    Musket: This long-barreled firearm has a much greater range than a pistol. A musket uses a bullet and a single dose of black powder as its ammunition.

    Musket, Double-Barreled: This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack. If both barrels are fired at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the gun becomes wildly inaccurate, taking a –4 penalty on each shot. Using this option with mana shots or other similar abilities (ki shots etc) adds an additional –2 penalty for the added focus required in forming two mana bullets in one instant.Each barrel of a double-barreled musket uses a bullet and a single dose of black powder as ammunition.

    Pistol: The single-shot pistol is one of the most common firearms, although in most campaigns it is still rare enough to be an object of envy or curiosity to most. A pistol uses a bullet and a singe dose of black powder as ammunition.

    Pistol, Dueling: Dueling pistols are essentially masterwork pistols that are sold as matching sets of two. The materials used and the intricate designs make them more costly than ordinary pistols.

    Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot. Using this option with mana shots or other similar abilities (ki shots etc)adds an additional –2 penalty for the added focus required in forming two mana bullets in one instant. Each barrel of a double-barreled musket uses a bullet and a single dose of black powder as ammunition.




    RELOADING

    Early firearms need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm.

    The Rapid Reload feat reduces the time required to load one-handed and two-handed firearms, as well as other feats, abilities, maneuvers, or stances that reduces reload times of crossbows or firearms.

    Loading any firearm provokes attacks of opportunity.

    Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring bullets or pellets and black powder to be rammed down the muzzle. If an early firearm has multiple barrels, each barrel must be loaded separately. It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm, and a full round action for each barrel of a two-handed early firearm.



    Advanced Firearms

    Advanced firearms are more reliable and accurate than early firearms. The ammunition of an advanced firearm takes the form of metal (usually brass) cartridges that are loaded into a chamber rather than shoved down the muzzle.

    Table: Advanced Firearms
    Firearm
    Cost
    Dmg (S)
    Dmg (M)
    Critical
    Range
    Capacity
    Weight
    Type
    One-Handed Firearms
    Revolver
    1,500 gp
    1d10
    1d12
    x3
    70 ft
    6
    3 lbs
    Piercing
    Two-Handed Firearms
    Rifle
    2,000 gp
    1d10
    2d6
    x4
    200 ft
    1
    12 lbs
    Piercing
    Shotgun
    2,000 gp
    1d10
    1d12
    -
    10 ft
    1
    12 lbs
    Piercing
    Shotgun, double barreled
    2,500 gp
    1d10
    1d12
    -
    10 ft
    2
    15 lbs
    Piercing

    Revolver: A revolver is a pistol with a revolving cylinder containing six chambers. Each chamber can hold a metal cartridge, and when one cartridge is shot, the cylinder automatically rotates (no extra hand or action required), readying the next chamber for firing. A revolver uses metal cartridges as ammunition.

    Rifle: This improvement on the musket, featuring grooved barrels, can fire farther and with more accuracy than early long-bore firearms. A rifle uses metal cartridges as ammunition.

    Shotgun: This advanced version of the blunderbuss. Operates in the same manner as the blunderbuss. A shotgun uses metal cartridges loaded with pellets called shells as ammunition.

    Shotgun, Double-Barreled: This twin-barreled shotgun can be shot either one barrel at a time, or both together as one attack. A double shot that fires bullets is inaccurate, reducing the DC for the Reflex save by 4. Using this option with mana shots or other similar abilities (ki shots etc)adds an additional –2 penalty for the added focus required in forming two mana bullets in one instant.A double-barreled shotgun uses metal cartridges loaded with pellets called shells as ammunition.


    RELOADING

    Advanced firearms need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm.

    The Rapid Reload feat reduces the time required to load one-handed and two-handed firearms, as well as other feats, abilities, maneuvers, or stances that reduces reload times of crossbows or firearms.

    Loading any firearm provokes attacks of opportunity.

    Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity and a single cartridge into a revolver, while it takes a full round action to reload all six cartridges for a revolver.



    Ammunition and Miscellaneous Items

    Item
    Cost
    Weight
    Ammunition
    Black Powder (dose)
    6 gp
    -
    Black Powder (keg)
    500 gp
    5 lbs
    Bullet (30)
    18 gp
    1/2 lbs
    Cartridge
    16 gp
    -
    Paper Cartridge
    12 gp
    -
    Pellets (handful)
    6 sp
    -
    Pellets (30 handfuls)
    18 gp
    1/2 lbs
    Powder horn
    4 gp
    1 lb
    Shells
    16 gp
    -
    Miscellaneous
    Bayonet
    30 gp
    1 lb
    Gunblades
    30 gp
    1 lb
    Gunsmith's kit
    16 gp
    2 lbs
    Scope
    450gp
    1 lb
    Speedloaders
    200 gp
    1/2 lbs


    Bayonet: Rifle/Musket only. When attached to a rifle/musket, allows melee attack dealing 1d4, 1d6, and 1d8 piercing damage for small, medium, and large creatures respectively. Bayonets are treated as simple weapons.

    Black Powder: Black powder is the key explosive component within a firearm that enables it to function, but in larger amounts this alchemical material can be quite destructive on its own as well. A single dose of black powder is enough to power a single shot from most one-handed and two-handed firearms, while 10 doses are required to fire a cannon. Black powder is often stored and transported in kegs (which hold 100 doses), but in this quantity the powder itself becomes dangerous. Exposure to fire, electricity, or an explosion causes black powder to explode—a single keg that explodes in this manner deals 5d6 points of fire damage to anyone within a 20-foot burst (DC 15 Reflex half). Storing black powder in a powder horn protects the powder from explosion.

    Bullet: The ammunition of most early one-handed and two-handed firearms, firearm bullets typically take the form of small balls of lead or some other metal.

    Gunblade: Pistol/Revolver only. When attached to a pistol/revolver, allows melee attack dealing 1d2, 1d4, and 1d6 slashing damage for small, medium, and large creatures respectively. Gunblades are treated as simple weapons.

    Gunsmith's Kit: This small kit has all the tools a person needs to create, repair, and restore firearms, except for the necessary raw materials. Without such a kit, you cannot properly construct or provide upkeep for firearms.

    Cartridge: These type of ammunition contains the bullet and powder all in one, encased in a metal jacket. These serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms.

    Paper Cartridge: A paper cartridge combines a pre-measured amount of powder with the ball in a sealed unit, eliminating the operation of measuring the powder during loading. Using paper cartridges speeds up the loading process of early firearms, reducing the action required by one step.

    Pellets: A handful of pellets, along with 4 doses of black powder, is commonly used as ammunition for blunderbuss, though rocks or other small bits of hard material can be used in the pellets' place.

    Powder Horn: Typically crafted from animal horn, but increasingly crafted from metal in a wide variety of shapes, a powder horn can hold up to 10 doses of black powder. A powder horn protects black powder stored within in it from exposure to fire, electricity, firearm misfires, and water.

    Scope: Rifle/Musket only. When attached to a rifle/musket, your range increment is multiplied by 2. Stacks with feats such as Far Shot.

    Shells: Cratridge filled with pellets that scatter upon firing. Used as ammunition for shotguns.

    Speedloaders: Speedloaders are cylinders that hold the cartridges for revolvers, used for quickly replacing all fired chambers in one action. Using a speedloader reduces the action of reloading all chambers of a revolver from a full round action to a move action. However, these need to be prepared beforehand, and loading cartridges into speedloaders during battle take a full round action.
    Last edited by GuyFawkes; 2014-04-14 at 03:06 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Okay, it's been a long time coming, but I've finally put down the firearms rules I intend to use with the class. As is noticeable, it is heavily based on the pathfinder rules, as well as some from dragon #321. However, I took out most of the complex stuff like touch attacks on the first few increments and others and made it simpler, tweaked some mechanics here and there, and put in some new items. Maybe some feats in the future.

    Also, for my own purposes, I added in the epic progression for the class because I intend to use it.

    For those interested, go ahead. You might want to leave behind some comments, suggestions, or insults as you do so.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    This could take a while...

    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFawkes View Post

    Game Rule Information
    Magic marksmen have the following game statistics.

    Abilities: While Magic Marksmen rely quite a lot on magic, he is primarily a gunslinger, and Dexterity allows him to hit his targets with pinpoint accuracy. Wisdom adds to a magic markman’s mana pool, as well as AC Bonus, and a number of his abilities depend on it. Constitution helps boost a low Fortitude save and extra HP is always a boon for an unarmored combatant.
    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Die: d8
    Starting Age: As Ranger.
    Starting Gold: As Ranger.

    Class Skills
    The Magic Marksman’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
    Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier


    Table: The Magic Marksman
    {table=head]Level|
    Base Attack Bonus
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Special|AC Bonus

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |AC Bonus, Mana Gun, Marksman|
    +0

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Dimensional Gallery|
    +0

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Mana Manipulation, Reflex Shooting|
    +0

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Uncanny Dodge, Supporter|
    +1

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Mana Adjustment|
    +1

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Advanced Marksman, Mana Surge +1|
    +1

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Battle Field (30 ft)|
    +1

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Improved Uncanny Dodge|
    +2

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Mana Manipulation|
    +2

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Mana Blast|
    +2

    11th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Superior Marksman|
    +2

    12th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    | Mana Surge +2|
    +3

    13th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    | Seize the Day|
    +3

    14th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Battle Field (60 ft)|
    +3

    15th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    | Mana Manipulation|
    +4

    16th|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Master Marksman|
    +4

    17th|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Adaptability|
    +4

    18th|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    | Mana Surge +3|
    +5

    19th|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Versatility|
    +5

    20th|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |Song of Moirae|
    +6
    [/table]
    Seems reasonable enough; no unique saves or any real oddities. It feels like if you have the ability that changes it's BAB to -3 per attack, though, you should list that in the table when it occurs (though I don't like that ability).

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies
    A Magic Marksman is proficient with all simple weapons and with all firearms. Magic marksmen are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a heavy load, a magic marksman loses his AC bonus.
    Pretty much standard.

    Mana Pool

    What separates a magic marksman from other gunsmen is his innate ability to collect and store a form of magical energy called mana inside of him that he could use to augment his marksmanship. The magic marksman can store mana points equal to his twice his class level plus his Wisdom modifier [(2 x class level) + Wis mod] which he can expend to execute some of his abilities. He regains expended mana points at a rate of one point per round.
    No complaints on the resource system.

    AC Bonus (Ex)

    A magic marksman can add their Wisdom modifier as a bonus to their AC, so long as they are unarmored, are unencumbered, and are not using a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the marksman is flat-footed. They lose this bonus when they are immobilized or helpless. In addition, a magic marksman gains a +1 bonus to AC at certain intervals, as shown on Table: The Magic Marksman. The bonuses are not cumulative.
    Fairly standard, so no complaints here.

    Mana Gun (Su)

    The signature weapon of any magic marksman is his mana gun. At first level, the magic marksman can fire mana shots out of any firearm he chooses, doing away with other gunsmen's reliance on conventional gunpowder and bullets. To be able to use any firearm as a mana gun, the marksman must use it for a week to align his mana with the weapon. As long as the marksman has at least one point of mana in his mana pool, he can shoot unlimited mana bullets. The number of guns he can designate as mana guns is unlimited, as long as he meets the above requirement for each.

    At higher levels, the marksman becomes more adept at the process of aligning his mana with a gun and shortens the required time. At fifth level, the requirement is reduced to one day, one hour at tenth level, and at fifteenth level, the magic marksman can shoot mana bullets from any firearm he picks up. Mana guns do not need to be reloaded to fire shots. At fifth level, mana shots are considered magical for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
    I don't understand why it takes time to align with a gun at all; it only really serves to hinder fast moving plots when you find/buy your level appropriate new weapon early on. Just make it take an hour at any given point if the alignment process is really important to the class.

    Marksman (Ex)

    Even without using mana, a magic marksman is still a force to be reckoned with. He is adept with any type of firearms and demonstrates unparalleled accuracy when using them. He may add his Dexterity modifier to his damage rolls when using firearms. He may also specialize in one of the following fighting styles:

    Assault: A magic marksman specializing in the assault style prefers taking the fight to his enemies, shooting down his foes at point-blank range. He relies on his lightning reflexes, wielding two guns simultaneously and reacting faster than the human eye can follow. A magic marksman who chooses this style gains the Two-Weapon Fighting and its benefits even if he could not ordinarily qualify for it and may add half his Dexterity modifier to his off-hand weapon damage rolls.

    Precision: The magic marksman who takes up precision fighting likes to take out his opponents from long range. He takes his time, aiming slowly and deliberately to deliver a single, fatal shot. You may add your Dexterity bonus to damage for ranged attacks. This ability stacks with the bonus from the Marksman ability. He also gains the Far Shot feat and its benefits even if he could not ordinarily qualify for it. These benefits only apply when using a single firearm.

    Command: Some magic marksman may opt to focus on letting their supporter do the fighting. Marksmen who take the path of the Command style do not benefit from the dexterity bonus to damage granted by the Marksman ability, even through feats, but gains the Supporter ability at level one instead of four, and without the requisite money and time needed to make one. This supporter is the same overall with the only difference is that it can take up any base class(PHB only), but spellcasting classes can only use up to level seven spells, and the supporter does not gain levels until the marksman reaches level four.
    Assault and Precision: Both fairly reasonable!

    Command: I just disagree with the entire supporter concept, but no, your class feature shouldn't be "I get a level 17 whatever (or with wizards/clerics/sorcerers, level 13/14). Class features shouldn't involve getting new characters.

    Dimensional Gallery (Su)

    At second level, the magic marksman learns the ability to use his mana to manipulate space. He gains the ability to create an extradimensional space, his Dimensional Gallery, which he can access anytime and anywhere in a split second. All weapons he designates as his mana guns can be stored in his Dimensional Gallery and he is able to store and retrieve them from it as a free action.
    Not a bad little fluff ability, though I do find the concept of effortlessly stealing guns (at high level) by grabbing them and putting them in hammerspace amusing.

    Reflex Shooting (Ex)

    The magic marksman’s credo is to strike first in every encounter. He learns to shoot as soon as he senses danger, and always strives to be faster than everyone else. At third level, he gains a +1 bonus to initiative, and an additional +1 every four levels after.
    A fairly minor ability, nothing wrong here.

    Mana Manipulation (Su)

    At third level, the magic marksman gains enough knowledge in mana to be able to manipulate and use it, allowing him to perform incredible feats in combat. He learns the mana manipulation techniques listed below.

    There are two types of mana manipulation techniques: active(A) and expended(X). Expended techniques are one-time use techniques. In order to use it again, you have to expend mana points equal to the cost of the technique. Expended techniques can only be used once per round. Active techniques are techniques that persist until the end of the encounter unless otherwise noted. You must have at least one mana point to keep active techniques activated. A magic marksman can have a maximum number of active mana manipulation techniques equal to his Wisdom modifier. This can be any combination of techniques from any level. He can execute as many expended techniques as is allowed by his mana pool.

    Third level techniques are initiated as a move action at third level, swift action at ninth, and free action at fifteenth, unless noted otherwise. Ninth level techniques are initiated as a move action at ninth level and swift action at fifteenth, and fifteenth level techniques are initiated as a move action, unless noted otherwise.
    For the most part the mana manipulation techniques look reasonable.

    Supporter (Su)

    At fourth level, the marksman gains the ability to create his supporter. By spending an entire day a sentient puppet that aids him in battle. By spending a whole day and 2,000 gp worth of materials and components, the magic marksman can create his supporter.

    The supporter acts as a level one warforged fighter, gaining the abilities of both a warforged and a fighter, except that its size category is Small instead of Medium. For determining its ability scores, use the same method used for generating the marksman’s ability scores. The supporter requires the marksman to allot two mana points for it to operate. The supporter also gains levels at the same time as the marksman, and the allotted mana points required to operate it increases by one point per two levels it gains.

    The supporter cannot equip items other than weapons and shields, but it can benefit from armor enchantments like any warforged and other magical effects, as well as effects from the magic marksman’s mana manipulation techniques. The supporter can also be stored in the Dimension Gallery when not in use, and retrieving it and powering it up is a free action and a standard action respectively. When a supporter reaches 0 HP, it automatically returns to the marksman’s Dimensional Gallery and can only be used again after the marksman has taken an 8 hour rest.
    I don't like the concept of giving a class a feature that is just "hey, you can play as this class too!" It's also basically a (minor) mana pool and gold tax, since there's no reason you'd ever *not* want a free numerical advantage.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex)

    Starting at fourth level, a magic marksman can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
    Uncanny dodge, nothing new, nothing problematic.

    Mana Adjustment (Su)

    At fifth level, a magic marksman gains the ability to adjust the power of his mana shots. By allotting mana points to his guns, he can add damage to his shots. For every point allotted, the marksman gains a +1 bonus to damage rolls for one-handed firearms and +2 for two-handed firearms. At level five, the maximum allowable points that can be allotted to his guns is two. At level ten, the maximum is equal to his Wisdom modifier.
    So, essentially, he gets his wisdom modifier to damage (or twice that) as long as he's willing to spend the mana point tax? That's pretty useful, but this is starting to get a lot of ability scores to damage.

    Advanced Marksman (Ex)

    The magic marksman always seeks to improve his marksmanship, training his body to react to danger even without the aid of mana. A marksman of sixth level gains the Evasion ability, as well as other benefits depending on his chosen style.

    Assault: The assault marksman is now used to fighting point-blank that he leaves no openings when making his ranged attacks and is able to capitalize on his opponents’ openings. Whenever making ranged attacks with his mana guns, he does not provoke attack of opportunities. He also threatens an area thirty feet in radius around him. In addition, he gains one of the techniques below.

    Precision: The precision marksman becomes an expert of dealing death from long distance. He gains the Sharpshooting ability. Any time he would be entitled to make multiple attacks against a single opponent, he may instead make a single attack at his full base attack bonus against that opponent. If the attack hits, it automatically threatens a critical. Furthermore, he adds the number of extra attacks to which he was otherwise entitled to his weapon's critical hit multiplier. These benefits only apply when using a single firearm. In addition, he gains one of the techniques below.

    Command: The command marksman’s link with his supporter increases to a point where he can increase his mana allotted to his supporter. He now gains the ability to allot more mana points to his supporter to a maximum equal to his Wisdom modifier. For every point of mana allocated to his supporter, the supporter gains one temporary ability point. Multiple ability points granted by this can be assigned to one ability score only. This additional allotted mana point stacks with the required mana points needed to activate the supporter, and the effects granted by this ability is lost whenever the marksman’s mana points drop below this number. In addition, he gains one of the techniques below.
    And here's where we start to encounter some real troubles. First off, wording wise, instead of saying that you learn a technique below on all three styles, just say that you learn one advanced (or superior, or master) technique for the skill in general. That eliminates a bit of wording trouble.

    Now, for the oddities. Assault is weird; threatening a 30 foot range is insane if you can do it, but I have no clue what it actually *does* because you can't AoO with ranged weapons and never gave them that ability.

    Precision is insane. It basically allows them to make a full attack sequence, just using the crit modifier in place of extra attacks. This gets especially whacky when combined with a double barreled musket, which is worded unclearly but either adds one extra attack with a 4x crit modifier, or doubles your attacks with 4x crit modifier. Either one means that this ability lets you omnicrit essentially at will, which is pretty crazy.


    Mana Surge (Su)

    By sixth level, the magic marksman has become adept at gathering mana that can do so at an accelerated rate. He now gains additional one point of mana per round. This increases to two bonus mana points per round at level twelve, and three bonus mana points per round at level eighteen.
    This is pretty useful and solid.

    Battle Field (Su)

    A seventh level, the magic marksman can apply his knowledge in using mana to manipulate a larger dimensional space. As a swift action, he can designate a thirty-foot radius space where the marksman can control his mana bullets to move in any direction as he pleases. This space is can be centered anywhere inside the markman's gun's range. This technique uses up five mana points and lasts for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier or until dismissed. Any enemy inside this space loses their Dexterity bonus to AC from attacks made by the marksman. The magic marksman also gains blindsense against any enemy inside his Battle Field.

    At fourteenth level, the space where the marksman can manipulate his bullets in expands to sixty feet. Magic Marksmen following the Assault style also gains the ability to target himself as the center of the Battle Field (in effect the Battle Field moves as he moves), those of the Command style can target their supporter as the center of the Battle Field, while those following the Precision style gain the ability to relocate the center of his Battle Field once per round to any point within the range of his mana gun. In addition, the marksman gains blindsight against any enemy inside his Battle Field, and he ignores cover, unless the enemy is surrounded by a barrier in all directions.
    What type of action is moving the field? Is the blindsight and ignoring cover thing for all styles, or just for the precision style? Removing dexterity modifiers seems pretty harsh, especially if combined with anything that benefits from a removed dexterity modifier through dipping or itemization.

    Mana Blast (Su)

    At tenth level, the magic marksman may use up half his maximum mana points and focus it into one powerful shot. Once a day, as a full-round action, the marksman gathers up his mana and focuses it into one shot that damages anything in a straight line up to the markman’s range. The shot deals damage equal to the mana points spent multiplied by his Wisdom modifier. Enemies caught in the line of fire can make a Reflex save(DC 10 + ½ Class level + Dex mod) to half the damage taken. At level fifteen, the marksman can use up all his mana to fire this shot and can be fired twice per day.
    This uses up a lot of mana and can be saved against. It's also got a really, really huge burst of damage attached with relatively little optimization, though I think with relatively little optimization you can still pull out far more from your omnicrits (though that has to deal with crit immunity).


    Superior Marksman (Ex)

    The magic marksman continues to improve on his marksmanship, as well as training his mind and body to withstand punishment. A marksman of eleventh level gains the ability to reroll a failed save once per encounter, as well as other benefits depending on his chosen style. He also learns an additional technique from the Advanced Marksman Techniques list.


    Assault: The assault marksman learns more tricks in close range combat and gains the Bullet Shower ability. When initiating a full attack, he can choose to target any enemy within thirty feet with each attack. While using this ability, each enemy hit twice is slowed, as per the slow spell for two rounds. In addition, he gains one of the techniques below.

    Precision: The lethality of the precision marksman from long range further increases with experience. The critical multiplier of his weapon is increased by one. You also gain the Power Critical feat and its benefits even if you could not ordinarily qualify for it. He also does not suffer the -20 penalty when hiding after taking a long ranged shot. These benefits only apply when using a single firearm. In addition, he gains one of the techniques below.

    Command: The command marksman’s link with his supporter further increases. He can now allot more mana points to his supporter to a maximum equal to twice his Wisdom modifier. Multiple ability points granted by this can be assigned to any ability score as you see fit. This additional allotted mana point stacks with the required mana points needed to activate the supporter, and the effects granted by this ability is lost whenever the marksman’s mana points drop below this number. In addition, he gains one of the techniques below.
    I think I forgot to mention this in the previous one, but the Command ability is really meh. Burning mana points for stat increases (and not huge ones) really isn't terribly useful.

    Assault is nutty; free AoE full attacks can get pretty bad. Double barrelled pistols lets you quadruple the fun, as well, since I'm still pretty certain the way they are worded allows you to use two attacks every time you could fire off a shot and your mana bullets preclude needing to reload.

    Precision is a decent addition, but not nearly as game changing as assault; just another load of damage on your free crits.

    Seize the Day (Ex)

    At thirteenth level, the marksman’s awareness of danger is so keen he can act before everyone in combat. Once a day, at the start of any encounter, the magic marksman can activate this ability. When he does, he gains a surprise round regardless of his rolls or if the enemy notices him. If the enemy gains a surprise round, he can activate this to act in their surprise round.
    This is pretty significant, but I like the idea so I'd keep it.


    Master Marksman (Ex)

    At sixteenth level, the magic marksman becomes a master of his chosen style, and he becomes the epitome of accuracy when using firearms. The decrease between his iterative attacks becomes three instead of five. This likely grants him extra attacks. As before, all attacks are at a positive base. For example, if his BAB is 12 and his normal full attack is 12/7/2, his new full attack is 12/9/6/3. This only applies to ranged full attacks. He also learns one additional technique from the Advanced Marksman Techniques and the Superior Marksman Techniques lists, as well as other benefits depending on his chosen style.

    Assault: The master assault marksman gains the Bullet Storm ability. Whenever you make a full attack with two weapons you , if 2 or more of your attacks hit the same target, the target must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 12 + ½ Class level + your Dexterity modifier. If the target fails its save suffers from effects depending on how many of your shots hit. If 2 attacks hit, the target is dazed. If 4 attacks hit, the target is stunned. If 6 attacks hit, the target is stunned and knocked down. If 8 attacks hit, the target is stunned, knocked prone, and paralyzed. These effects last for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier. If the target would be immune to an effect caused by this ability, they take 1d6 points of damage multiplied by your Wisdom modifier instead of that particular effect. The other effects of this ability still apply. In addition, you also learn one technique from the list below.

    Precision: The master precision marksman gains the One Shot, One Kill ability. Whenever you use the Sharpshooting ability, if you hit, the target of your attack must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 12 + ½ Class level + your Dexterity modifier. If the target fails its save, it dies instantly. Otherwise it takes damage as normal from Sharpshooting. These benefits only apply when using a single firearm. In addition, you also learn one technique from the list below.

    Command: The master Command marksman gains the Autonomy ability. Whenever using your supporter ability, you do not need to allot any mana points required to activate your supporter. Also, the supporter ability becomes an extraordinary ability, meaning the supporter can persist in an antimagic field among other benefits. Spells, supernatural, and spell-like abilities of the supporter however are still suppressed. In addition, you also learn one technique from the list below.
    The BAB thing is nuts and I encourage you to rethink going from a four attack sequence to a 7 attack sequence, especially while one class has the ability to turn an entire full attack sequence into one giant attack, another can full attack in an AoE, and both can use weapons that double their number of attacks. The saves on both one shot one kill and bullet storm are pretty high, and I think you should definitely remove the "you're immune to my effects? Whatever, just take extra damage" part of bullet storm; you should never be punished for being protected against something. Command, while still absurd for giving you a free extra class, still lags behind, since getting a small amount of mana back and actually being allowed to use the class feature you gave up significant amounts of power for is not really a strong ability.

    Adaptability (Ex)

    At seventeenth level, the master marksman has complete mastery over all gun techniques. At the start of each day, by spending an hour in practice, he can change his techniques known.
    Seems reasonable.

    Versatility (Ex)

    At nineteenth level, the Magic Marksman has complete mastery over his chosen style that he can adapt other styles into his own. This ability allows the marksman to gain all the benefits granted by any one of the fighting styles he did not choose at level one, except those benefits granted by the Master Marksman ability. He also does not gain additional techniques granted by the secondary style. Thus, a marksman who chose Assault style at level one gains all benefits granted by the Precision style or Command style up until Superior Marksman, and a marksman who chose Precision style at level one gains all benefits granted by the Assault style or Command style up until Superior Marksman, and so on. Any marksman who takes the Command style as his second style also loses his ability to add Dexterity modifier to damage rolls from any source.
    This is a bad ability because all three of the styles basically preclude each other. You either get the (near) useless precision or assault if you were focusing on one or the other, or if you were focusing on control, you get a gimped version of precision or assault. If you are focusing on precision or assault, you actively cripple yourself by taking command.

    Song of Moirae (Su)

    Upon reaching level twenty, the Magic Marksman has now gained mastery of mana manipulation. Once a day, as a standard action, he can activate Song of Moirae. This ability lasts until the end of the encounter or until dismissed. While this ability is active, the magic marksman gains access to unlimited amounts of mana. This ability however puts too much strain on the magic markman’s body, and he receives damage equal to ten percent of his maximum hit points rounded up each round the ability is active, and once the ability ends or is dismissed, the magic marksman’s mana points drop to zero and becomes exhausted.

    In addition, this ability affects some of the marksman’s other abilities. When Battle Field is active while the Song is active, the area of the magic marksman’s Battle Field is doubled, and it gains an added effect that suppresses any other use of magic aside from that of the marksman’s, similar to an antimagic field (only abilities using mana works, magic items used by the marksman do not, as well as magic effects from other sources) and lasts as long as the Song of Moirae is active. When Mana Blast is used during the Song of Moirae, the damage calculation uses the maximum mana points at the marksman’s class level. The marksman can also use Mana Blast unlimited times while the Song is active, but every shot he takes after three shots, he doubles the damage dealt by the Song in that round.
    This is a pretty powerful capstone, even with the relatively minor cost involved in using it. I guess it wouldn't be massively problematic.

    Overall, this is a pretty interesting class, but it feels like you've probably gone overboard on how much damage this thing can deal; with +8 dex and +8 wis, Sharpshooter is dealing 1d10+32*(5 + either 7 [if you only get one bonus shot from a double barreled musket) or 13 [if you get a bonus shot every round] at level 20, which is not taking into account any feats or gear investment. That's 450 to 675 average damage a round, fired off from one shot, without doing anything. You can get similarly insane numbers with your AoE full attacks (not counting the fact you're probably also dealing an extra 24d6 against monsters immune to your abilities), again with minimal feat investment (though those might miss a good bit more). There are some iffy techniques I didn't go over as well (making all attacks touch attacks on a class that can remove dex bonuses to AC may as well say "you hit with all attacks unless you roll a 1"), but the main problem is just that this class seems to be squarely in the "it deals excessive amounts of damage but doesn't have huge utility" category, where it either overshadows other non caster classes or tries to compete with casters on damage while having none of the utility.
    Last edited by PEACH; 2011-11-25 at 02:50 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Jun 2011

    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    I don't understand why it takes time to align with a gun at all; it only really serves to hinder fast moving plots when you find/buy your level appropriate new weapon early on. Just make it take an hour at any given point if the alignment process is really important to the class.
    Why shouldn't it? You can still holster the new weapons, nothing new there. It's mostly fluff, but having to be able to 'draw and holster' a gun as a free action should have some drawbacks, I guess.


    Assault and Precision: Both fairly reasonable!

    Command: I just disagree with the entire supporter concept, but no, your class feature shouldn't be "I get a level 17 whatever (or with wizards/clerics/sorcerers, level 13/14). Class features shouldn't involve getting new characters.
    Fair enough. It's just a fluff idea that I kind of stuck with. DMs can easily allow or disallow it though, since the skills for the supporter and the command build are separate from the others, so I don't see any problems there.

    Not a bad little fluff ability, though I do find the concept of effortlessly stealing guns (at high level) by grabbing them and putting them in hammerspace amusing.
    Exactly, and yet you want it to be able to do that at lower levels.


    I don't like the concept of giving a class a feature that is just "hey, you can play as this class too!" It's also basically a (minor) mana pool and gold tax, since there's no reason you'd ever *not* want a free numerical advantage.
    As above. And see, it does pose problems if you do allow it, so it's not all "Yeah, I play 2 characters. Deal with it." And really, the class can go along fine without the supporter, so it's all good.

    So, essentially, he gets his wisdom modifier to damage (or twice that) as long as he's willing to spend the mana point tax? That's pretty useful, but this is starting to get a lot of ability scores to damage.
    Yeah, this class is all about damage.

    And here's where we start to encounter some real troubles. First off, wording wise, instead of saying that you learn a technique below on all three styles, just say that you learn one advanced (or superior, or master) technique for the skill in general. That eliminates a bit of wording trouble.
    Yes, thanks. That does read better.

    Now, for the oddities. Assault is weird; threatening a 30 foot range is insane if you can do it, but I have no clue what it actually *does* because you can't AoO with ranged weapons and never gave them that ability.
    The ability gives the class the ability to do AoO within the range. Although I find it hard to see with bows, with guns that don't need reloading, I don't see why you cannot do that. And I think of this as a double edged sword. With a d8 HD, being within 30 feet of a number of enemies and firing on them does not look good for you.

    Precision is insane. It basically allows them to make a full attack sequence, just using the crit modifier in place of extra attacks. This gets especially whacky when combined with a double barreled musket, which is worded unclearly but either adds one extra attack with a 4x crit modifier, or doubles your attacks with 4x crit modifier. Either one means that this ability lets you omnicrit essentially at will, which is pretty crazy.
    For the musket, not my fault, it's how Paizo worded it. And it does say single attack so, double the damage each shot. So, technically you can double each of your available attacks given by BAB, but it says when you do so, you get -4 to attack. While you get double attacks, you get a penalty to hit every time you choose to do so for each attack, so if you apply this to Sharpshooting, you get an accumulating -4 penalty for each instance of using a double attack.

    For the ability itself, putting it in one attack makes the attack either a hit or a miss, so if you do hit, well, you'd be causing lots of pain, and if you miss, zero damage altogether. Non crittable creatures also easily counter this. Although maybe there should be something like it takes two full round actions to pull this ability off or some other stuff to limit it from not being used every round.

    On this note, maybe I should look at my gun stats as well. Make them all have x3 crit multipliers.


    What type of action is moving the field? Is the blindsight and ignoring cover thing for all styles, or just for the precision style? Removing dexterity modifiers seems pretty harsh, especially if combined with anything that benefits from a removed dexterity modifier through dipping or itemization.
    Yeah, thanks. It should be a swift action to do so, though I could've sworn I put that in there. Must be with all the revisions and copy pasting.

    For removing dexterity, at lower levels, it's a fixed area, so the most I can see an enemy staying inside it is if the marksman is there and he wants to attack with melee. Though again, I should put the description that this area becomes visibly different, like a black space or something. For higher levels, well, I think this won't be posing that much of a problem.

    This uses up a lot of mana and can be saved against. It's also got a really, really huge burst of damage attached with relatively little optimization, though I think with relatively little optimization you can still pull out far more from your omnicrits (though that has to deal with crit immunity).
    Yeah, this one's a desperation shot, as it makes you lose all your remaining mana. You get saves but it will still hurt. And this is intended for those enemies you can't normally hit because abnormally high armor to AC, and they typically do not have high reflex saves.

    For comparison to Sharpshooting, again yeah that has to deal with being precison damage, and it has to hit the target, while this one does damage even with a successful save. So yeah, you have to pick your poison.

    I think I forgot to mention this in the previous one, but the Command ability is really meh. Burning mana points for stat increases (and not huge ones) really isn't terribly useful.
    Yeah, but as you have stated yourself, the supporter is in itself a big factor to deal with, so this effect actually has a big impact by virtue of the supporter just being allowed anyway.

    Assault is nutty; free AoE full attacks can get pretty bad. Double barrelled pistols lets you quadruple the fun, as well, since I'm still pretty certain the way they are worded allows you to use two attacks every time you could fire off a shot and your mana bullets preclude needing to reload.
    Actually, I like this one since ranged combatants rarely get AoE type of attacks. Though again this has to maybe have that doable after dX rounds.

    For the double barreled pistol, the -4 penalty plus penalty to TWF holds that in check.

    Precision is a decent addition, but not nearly as game changing as assault; just another load of damage on your free crits.
    Yes, addressed by the Sharpshooting ability issue.

    The BAB thing is nuts and I encourage you to rethink going from a four attack sequence to a 7 attack sequence, especially while one class has the ability to turn an entire full attack sequence into one giant attack, another can full attack in an AoE, and both can use weapons that double their number of attacks. The saves on both one shot one kill and bullet storm are pretty high, and I think you should definitely remove the "you're immune to my effects? Whatever, just take extra damage" part of bullet storm; you should never be punished for being protected against something. Command, while still absurd for giving you a free extra class, still lags behind, since getting a small amount of mana back and actually being allowed to use the class feature you gave up significant amounts of power for is not really a strong ability.
    For the BAB: Hmm. I am thinking about this. Maybe I will retain the reduced penalties per iteration but remove the added attacks granted.

    For Bullet Storm: I actually like the idea of damaging more for being immune. Though again I think I have to put in some ways not to make this doable every round.

    This is a bad ability because all three of the styles basically preclude each other. You either get the (near) useless precision or assault if you were focusing on one or the other, or if you were focusing on control, you get a gimped version of precision or assault. If you are focusing on precision or assault, you actively cripple yourself by taking command.
    Actually, that is the intended effect of the ability. As the name implies, it gives the marksman versatility, but not mastery over two paths. It gives the marksman more options. An assault marksman taking precision can now shoot better at longer ranges when he really needs to. Though not as good as an actual precision marksman, he is definitely better at it than a pure assault one.

    For the command thing, I made it so it's rather discouraging to pick up command as a second path, with the issue on the supporter and all.

    Overall, this is a pretty interesting class, but it feels like you've probably gone overboard on how much damage this thing can deal; with +8 dex and +8 wis, Sharpshooter is dealing 1d10+32*(5 + either 7 [if you only get one bonus shot from a double barreled musket) or 13 [if you get a bonus shot every round] at level 20, which is not taking into account any feats or gear investment. That's 450 to 675 average damage a round, fired off from one shot, without doing anything. You can get similarly insane numbers with your AoE full attacks (not counting the fact you're probably also dealing an extra 24d6 against monsters immune to your abilities), again with minimal feat investment (though those might miss a good bit more). There are some iffy techniques I didn't go over as well (making all attacks touch attacks on a class that can remove dex bonuses to AC may as well say "you hit with all attacks unless you roll a 1"), but the main problem is just that this class seems to be squarely in the "it deals excessive amounts of damage but doesn't have huge utility" category, where it either overshadows other non caster classes or tries to compete with casters on damage while having none of the utility.
    Well, although you had lots of negative things to say on it, I'm quite happy that it deals mostly on damage, which for me is not that much of a factor, especially at higher levels. As such, I do think I need to tone it down a bit, at the very least the frequency of the big shots like Sharpshooter and Bullet Storm/Shower.

    Thanks for the comments!

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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    For the attuning: Again, the problem with a week long attuning period is just that the only real mechanical impact it has is preventing a Marksman from effectively using WBL if he starts at low levels and grabs stuff as they adventure.

    I think you're overestimating how minor a penalty a few -4s can be when you can either go for flat footed or touch AC with basically no setup required; it should almost always be very easy to hit with quite a few double shot penalties added on, though seven may be a bit tricky.

    I still urge you to not make an ability that damages people who are immune to its effects. I just find to be a very bad idea, in general, to punish anything (enemies or PCs) for having the right tool for the job (or in this case, the right immunity).
    Last edited by PEACH; 2011-11-26 at 10:27 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by PEACH View Post
    For the attuning: Again, the problem with a week long attuning period is just that the only real mechanical impact it has is preventing a Marksman from effectively using WBL if he starts at low levels and grabs stuff as they adventure.
    When you start at low levels and buy stuff, it's understood that you've had that weapon for quite some time, therefore you can use mana shots from it. And it doesn't prevent you from using it, you just can't shoot mana bullets out of them. You still have your normal bullets, which the marksman can craft as well.

    I think you're overestimating how minor a penalty a few -4s can be when you can either go for flat footed or touch AC with basically no setup required; it should almost always be very easy to hit with quite a few double shot penalties added on, though seven may be a bit tricky.
    Most monsters lose a little when flat-footed, and those that do lose a lot, they usually have enough movement to go out of Battle Field. The touch AC thing you can do two rounds per encounter. But still, I think I should put on some clause with the double barreled firearms that adds more penalties when firing mana shots, since forming two mana bullets for one shot action takes much effort and focus.

    I still urge you to not make an ability that damages people who are immune to its effects. I just find to be a very bad idea, in general, to punish anything (enemies or PCs) for having the right tool for the job (or in this case, the right immunity).
    It's not so much as punishing for being immune to something. I mean you get added damage, but you don't get to be helpless for a round or two like others who are not. It's how SoD abilities work anyway, so it's not like this doesn't have a precedent. And with the ability requiring you to hit two times to impart one condition, and now with the added damage only applied once per creature even with multiple immunity, and now only working for every 1d6 rounds, it's more saner than the previous version.

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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFawkes View Post
    When you start at low levels and buy stuff, it's understood that you've had that weapon for quite some time, therefore you can use mana shots from it. And it doesn't prevent you from using it, you just can't shoot mana bullets out of them. You still have your normal bullets, which the marksman can craft as well.
    The problem is that normal bullets suck because you have to reload or spend a feat to make reloading a nonissue. If your argument for "A week attuning is too long" is "You can ignore the attuning period", then I don't see why you wouldn't just have a problem removing it; if you bought a weapon with cash from adventuring, I wouldn't "assume" you've had it for a week, I'd assume you've had it for however long it is since you bought it.

    Most monsters lose a little when flat-footed, and those that do lose a lot, they usually have enough movement to go out of Battle Field. The touch AC thing you can do two rounds per encounter. But still, I think I should put on some clause with the double barreled firearms that adds more penalties when firing mana shots, since forming two mana bullets for one shot action takes much effort and focus.
    It's actually impossible to evade the Battle Field of a Precision marksman. It takes a swift action to drop and a swift action to move, and there's no save, so no matter how far they move, as long as they're within attack range you can deny them their Dex bonus (provided, of course, that you're willing to use your swift action).

    It's not so much as punishing for being immune to something. I mean you get added damage, but you don't get to be helpless for a round or two like others who are not. It's how SoD abilities work anyway, so it's not like this doesn't have a precedent. And with the ability requiring you to hit two times to impart one condition, and now with the added damage only applied once per creature even with multiple immunity, and now only working for every 1d6 rounds, it's more saner than the previous version.
    I still strongly disagree with that concept. Adding damage for immunities is being punished, even if it's a lesser punishment than actually being paralyzed.

    There's also still the wording issue with the Marksman; yes, moving within your threatened area provokes AoOs, but it still doesn't actually say you can AoO with a gun (or, for that matter, that you don't keep your 30 foot threatened area with a melee weapon).

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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by PEACH View Post
    The problem is that normal bullets suck because you have to reload or spend a feat to make reloading a nonissue. If your argument for "A week attuning is too long" is "You can ignore the attuning period", then I don't see why you wouldn't just have a problem removing it; if you bought a weapon with cash from adventuring, I wouldn't "assume" you've had it for a week, I'd assume you've had it for however long it is since you bought it.
    I don't really see much of an issue with the 1 week attunement at all but what the hell, let's make it 1 day at level 1, and you could use any gun at 10th.

    It's actually impossible to evade the Battle Field of a Precision marksman. It takes a swift action to drop and a swift action to move, and there's no save, so no matter how far they move, as long as they're within attack range you can deny them their Dex bonus (provided, of course, that you're willing to use your swift action).
    And as important as a swift action is, that's the dilemma right there. You aren't fighting one on one all the time after all. And that's only for the Precision marksman, who does not have lots of options when the enemies close in. He should have that advantage at least. And he can do that only starting at level 14 where monsters could dim door or something similar beside you.

    I still strongly disagree with that concept. Adding damage for immunities is being punished, even if it's a lesser punishment than actually being paralyzed.
    Hmm. Maybe I should just put it as additional damage if the Fort save is successful.

    There's also still the wording issue with the Marksman; yes, moving within your threatened area provokes AoOs, but it still doesn't actually say you can AoO with a gun (or, for that matter, that you don't keep your 30 foot threatened area with a melee weapon).
    Right. Put in the added paragraph that says it works only when the marksman is dual wielding firearms.

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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Additional Mana Manipulation Techniques:

    Third Level

    Clarity(A): You focus mana into your eyes, enhancing your vision and guiding you to be wary of your surroundings. By spending two mana points, you gain an insight bonus to Spot checks equal to your Wisdom modifier. At ninth level, by spending five mana points, gain an insight bonus to Spot checks equal to your Wisdom modifier and you can also see invisible creatures as the See Invisibility spell. At level fifteen, by spending ten mana points, you gain an insight bonus to Spot checks equal to your Wisdom modifier and gain True Seeing as the spell. You can choose which effect to apply to you by spending the appropriate amount of mana points.

    Elemental Resist (A): You form a layer around you that can absorb the damage from different kinds of energy. By spending two mana points, you gain energy resistance 10 to one type of energy of your choice. At level nine, by spending five mana points, you gain energy resistance 20 to one type of energy of your choice and energy resistance 10 to one other type of energy of your choice. At level fifteen, you gain immunity to one type of energy of your choice and energy resistance 20 to two other types of energy of your choice. You can spend the appropriate amount of mana to switch into another type of energy resistance/immunity.

    Ninth Level

    Mana Guard (A): You manipulate your mana to augment your overall defenses against physical or mental attacks. By spending five mana points, you gain an insight bonus to all saves equal to one fourth you marksman levels rounded down.

    Fifteenth Level

    Interdimensional Travel (X): By focusing your mana into manipulating dimensions and their boundaries, you can travel through these boundaries at your whim. By spending ten mana points, you can travel through planar boundaries, as the Plane Shift spell.
    Last edited by GuyFawkes; 2012-01-14 at 06:52 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFawkes View Post

    Ninth Level

    Mana Guard (A): You manipulate your mana to augment your overall defenses against physical or mental attacks. By spending five mana points, you gain an insight bonus to all saves equal to one fourth you marksman levels divided by four rounded down.
    This confuses me. At level 20, this is a bonus of (20/4)/4=1

    I assume you added the divide by 4 twice?
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    Default Re: [3.5, Base Class] The Magic Marksman (PEACH)

    Lol the hell am I doing posting half awake? That just 1/4. Sorry, and thanks for the catch.

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