Death of a god and effects on clerics

[Balor01]

In my next campaign, a few gods will die. Not the whole pantheon, just a few. Now I am wondering, what effects would, in your opinion this have on these gods' clergy? Would they go insane? Event horizon style? How would this mark godless clerics?

Of course they could not cast spells, being granted by diety.

[hamishspence]

Maybe draw from the rules for The Silence of Lolth (in Player's Guide to Faerun)- that is- you can still cast prepared spells, but cannot prepare new spells.

[Gnoman]

The thread I started on the matter may be of interest.

[Balor01]

@Gnoman
Link pls?

[Traab]

I would imagine the remaining pantheon would likely distribute the now open areas of influence amongst the surviving gods, the way I see it, you have a few options on what you could do. As they can no longer get magic from the gods they follow, they lose their abilities. However, if they choose to follow the replacement god, then they could be setup with an interesting quest chain. They remain at current level, but start with only the beggining spells, though they retain all the slots they already have, and there can be a number of side quests to basically gain favor with the new god and unlock access to the higher level spells and abilities as your new lord starts to like you as much as the old one did.

From a strictly roleplaying standpoint I see a few options. Total despair, and perhaps madness from the true zealots of their faith, a quick change of allegiance as they locate the next closest god to their school of beliefs from the more pragmatic, and perhaps a few reject their old ways of doing things, and basically take up a new school of magic, one that doesnt rely upon gods to work.

[Sipex]

To add onto Traab's ideas, I believe aspiring gods with somewhat similar alignments would take the opportunity to recruit new believers in the material plane. Most gods will have a lot of devoted, talented and powerful followers. This would be valuable to any god.

[Aurenthal]

I would say, that the clerics continue to pursue the dead-god´s purposes.

[flumphy]

It depends largely on the setting and the god's function. Mystra dying, for example, is a big deal. With other deities, you people move on without much of a problem.

[Stone Heart]

You have given me an idea for a campaign I am playing in. My character is a cleric, and I am aware that in a related campaign there will be god killing going on. If my characters god dies, I am going to see if, granting my character reaches the epic levels, there is any way for her to replace her deity and become the new one.

Thank you, because I have planned out so much just from your single post.

[NecroRebel]

Most gods are parts of pantheons. Usually, a single deity does not control all aspects of life; a priest of a god of the sun, life, and summer, for instance, still probably pays some respect to the goddess of the moon, death, and winter. Those things happen, and even if they aren't as "true" or holy as the things which the "proper" deity controls, the other deities still have a place in the hierarchy.

As a result, if a god died, most of the priests who didn't go into denial on the subject would probably find a friendly deity from the same pantheon with closely-related portfolios. Some might go over to the worship of another god with the same portfolios in a different pantheon, but most clerics of the Gods of the Romans will remain with the Gods of the Romans. Since the closely-related deities would probably have more presence in the life of those clerics in the first place, the transition would be reasonably smooth and usually fairly quick; in fact, the allied gods might just take up the slack of the deceased and empower the lost's worshipers immediately and only gradually convert them to their own faith, meaning that for the most part there might not even be any interruption in clerical powers.

A problem arises, of course, with deities that have no close contacts with others. Evil gods have an annoying tendency to be openly antagonistic towards all other gods. The clerics of these are probably screwed unless a replacement arises quickly.

[whitelaughter]

I'd be tempted to let them keep getting spells (given clerics can get spells without having a god) - and then have them asked 'what use was your god anyway?'

[Suicidal Charge]

@Gnoman
Link pls?

Here. The Servant of the Fallen feat is the only thing that hasn't already been mention here, I think.

[DabblerWizard]

I'd be tempted to let them keep getting spells (given clerics can get spells without having a god) - and then have them asked 'what use was your god anyway?'

I too had this idea. It would make a great in-game conundrum. One possibility: Clerics who are "worshipers" in name, who only really want power, realize they don't need the deity for power, and leave the church and become some sort of heathen cleric. How clerics are able to cast spells without divine intervention is left wide open, and needs to be answered.

Another idea. Would all clerics know about the death of their deity? That might depend on how directly connected deities are to their clerics. In a campaign world I created, only greater clerics actually commune with deities, and lesser ones have to rely on indirect confirmation, through great works, or other clerics, or (what isn't valid) getting powers.

[claricorp]

I think a good portion of the pathfinder campaign setting revolves around the death of a god, you can find the info in the aptly named book "pathfinder campaign setting".

From what I remember of reading it, it was one of the more mainstream gods, and at his death, entire nations fell to ones who did not worship him, and lesser religious organizations became more powerful, such as in one place where devil cults gain complete power over one of the largest nations.

[Diarmuid]

The reason for the god's death is also important to take into account. If one god dies, another is likely take up their portfolio, or maybe it gets split up between a couple of rival gods looking to scoop up some extra power.

In that scenario, the clerics may not even realise that they are no longer getting their spells from a new source. Or they're given an option to convert or die.

[QuidEst]

Heh… if you want a bit of fun, you can have some of the sneakier gods transfer a fraction of their power (whatever they can manage) to their most devoted follower(s). You've got plenty of control over what that entails, how much the recipient knows in advance, and how much can be communicated.

Any death god might even have a gambit in place to get themselves reincarnated. That leaves a cult of powerless but resource-rich clerics out to cash in on the major rewards a job well-done would entail.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The Pathfinder setting had a recent god death that was a pretty big deal. The god in question was Aroden, the god of humans and the first mortal to ascend to divinity. There was a prophecy called the Starfall Doctrine that declared Aroden would one day return to Golarion and take over the rule of the empire of Cheliax, ushering in a golden age of prosperity and happiness.

But when Aroden was supposed to return, everything when to hell, in some places quite literally. Simultaneously, a crack opened up in the land of Sarkoris far to the north, and demons poured out of the chasm. Sarkoris was utterly destroyed, and the Worldwound, as the rift was later called, remains to this day, the demons barely held in check by the crusaders of Mendev, a nation founded specifically to combat them. In the south, a hurricane began called the Eye of Abendego, the largest hurricane in history. It practically sunk the nations of western Garund, and still rages to this day. Lesser storms started all over the world.

But most importantly, Aroden's priests found that they could no longer use magic. The setting's description is vague, but I assume the priests found they couldn't use magic, whether to cast spells they'd already prepared or preparing new spells or channeling energy.

Aroden's death had a significant impact on the entire world. Not only did he leave an orphaned church behind that was later mostly adopted by his herald, the goddess Iomedae, but the very concept of prophecy was called into question. How accurate could prophecies be if the Starfall Doctrine, a prophecy everyone believed and hoped for, turned out to be incorrect, or worse a total lie? What did this mean for other prophecies that had yet to be fulfilled? Were they all invalid now? What about the prophecies that had been fulfilled? Had the world just gotten lucky? Even when the priests of Pharasma, the goddess of death, birth and fate, beseeched her for advice she didn't comment. Furthermore, Cheliax was left without a ruler, which plunged the nation into a brutal civil war that saw the rise of the Thrice Damned House of Thrune, and the instituting of Asmodeus as the new top god there, his faith now the state religion.

So to answer your original question, Pathfinder treats the death of a god as a sheer cutoff for the faithful. They lose access to any and all priestly power unless they switch to another deity, as Aroden's faithful converted to Iomedae's church. It also was a big friggin' deal for the world, as Aroden's death triggered a set of horrid natural disasters, opened a rift to the Abyss from which the demons now invade the world, and set up the situation that caused the mightiest nation on the planet to turn to the worship of devils for safety and security.

And the kicker? No one's figured out just what the heck happened to Aroden. Was he murdered? Did he commit suicide? Was it a tragic accident? Did he try to fight some terrible being from the Dark Tapestry and lose? No one knows...

[Seerow]

It depends largely on the setting and the god's function. Mystra dying, for example, is a big deal. With other deities, you people move on without much of a problem.

I'd also say it depends on how the setting handles gods dying.

For example, if you're playing in Midkemia, dead gods can be reborn given worship and time, and the other gods continue providing power to the clerics of fallen gods, to the point that the vast majority of the world don't even know the gods in question are dead.


If there's any midkemia fans out there, yes I know I just butchered that explanation for simplicity's sake. Please don't nitpick

[LibraryOgre]

Depends upon the God. In the Time of Troubles, a number of deities died. In the case of Bhaal, he more or less drained every assassin in the Realms of their life (but his clerics seem to have survived). In general, I would say the clerics are unable to get new spells above 2nd level without a new deity.

[Trufflehound]

If gods gain their power from their worshippers, a death would make a huge power vacuum. The gods gave protection in exchange for power, and now the worshippers are unaffiliated.

Cue evil outsiders shifting in to take the unaffiliated by force, attacking only the former worshippers and anyone else who doesn't worship a god. Other gods would send in clerics to the god's strongest areas on recruitment campaigns. Theocracies would instantly devolve into anarchy, countries with a fairly strong affiliation would be invaded.

And cue massive bizzare effects within that god's domain, taking weeks to stabilize.

[Morithias]

Huh...this thread has made me realize how insignificant the gods in my setting are. If a god dies or heaven forbid retires. They simply pick someone else who fits the mold out of a lineup. (A famous merchant for god of trade, a legendary rogue for god of thieves).

You don't even lose your powers if your god retires.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I imagine a cataclysmic event such as the death of a god would shake the foundations of the clergy in their beliefs, but more importantly, it would shake the foundations of the commoners' faith in their clergy.

Think about it this way--if your clergymen suddenly were unable to dole out miracles (of the lower-level nature, not of the spell), heal the sick, or even receive answers through prayer, then they have, for all intents and purposes, fallen from the grace of their god (assuming the common people don't know of the god's death), in which case the clergy is corrupt and is thus not trustworthy, or the god itself wasn't worth worshiping, as was ordained (assuming the common people know of the god's death), in which case the clergy misled them and is thus not trustworthy. Peasant revolts against the former clergy would be commonplace, and strife between sects (worshipers of other gods trying to assimilate the fallen clerics to their churches, or eliminate them entirely--the second is especially true of the clergy of a god who kills the now-dead god) would not be unheard of.

Basically, I imagine the death of a cleric's got to not only be the effective end of their career, but a scarlet letter of sorts as well--a mark of banishment that keeps them from attaining their former status easily.

[Winds]

It largely depends on how your pantheon works. In Forgotten Realms, there is an Overdeity who would ensure that either a new god ascended, or that god's portfolio would be distributed. In this case, the clerics would switch to whatever god was appropriate, but still revere the memory of the 'lost' one.

In Dragonlance, however, the departure of the gods caused magic to disappear-but then they discovered wild magic, which was basically the world's reservoir of magic, which they could draw on for a time. (In the end, the gods returned, but you can easily create a campaign based on the depletion of magic that people once used every day.)

Also, clerics can revere principles instead. Since clerics in some settings can become clerics without revering a deity, a cleric who continues to revere one that no longer exists may retain their powers, but cast from faith in their deity's principles rather than the deity itself.

[Dragonsoul]

I kind of get the mental image of a cleric praying for Spells one morning and getting

*Error 404: Deity not found*

[Darth Stabber]

I kind of get the mental image of a cleric praying for Spells one morning and getting

*Error 404: Deity not found*

That depends on how the prayers are implemented.

In all seriousness, I would imagine that one of the deity's allies would step up and take on his comerade's followers, if for no other reason than to generate some good will with them, and make them more likely to permanently convert to his side. Besides followers of a deity often refer to themselves as "children of X", and parents frequently have plans in place for where their children should go in the event of their demise.

If Thor died, I doubt that his followers would be left high and dry, Odin would probably pick them up. It's the spiritual equivilent of being sent to live with grandpa.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Which is exactly what Iomedae did when Aroden died in Pathfinder, inviting his orphaned priests to serve under her instead. Though in that case it was more like the spiritual equivalent of being sent to live with your sister, since Iomedae was Aroden's subordinate, not superior.

[Nachtritter]

Madness, followed by some of the clergy desperately embracing a religion - ANY religion, even the evil ones - that will give them that divine connection they crave so much. The others, embittered by the loss of their power, go full-on athiest and begin denouncing all the gods in public. Maybe a very, very few, fueled by natural faith, get to keep their powers, but this is in the absolute minority (i.e., one or two of the PCs, and possibly one other NPC they run across in their travels).

[Starshade]

The priests don't need to turn helpless even though they loose power. They could grab a level of psion or wizard, and use it to try 'fuel' semi divine replica items. Hoard old magical items, use scrolls, and make do. Remember people can still believe, even without an divine power source.