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    Default The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    The Gish

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    "Wave become my shield! Thunder become my blade! Sougyou no Kotowari!"- Jushiro Ukitake, Bleach

    Intended Balance Point: It is impossible for me to attempt to convey the balance point I wish this class to meet through the accepted means of this site, as JaronK's tier system takes into account the relative power of base classes only and a gish is almost always a combination of multi and prestige classing. That said, I would like this class to be slightly less powerful and versatile than a normal gish build, trading versatility, blasting, battlefield control and Save or Dies for 20 BAB/CL and full armor casting.

    Alignment: Any

    Hit Dice: d6

    Class Skills: The gish's class skills are Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (All skills, taken individually), Profession and Spellcraft

    Skill Points: 2+Int per level, x4 at 1st level

    The Gish
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |Armor Casting (Light)|3

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |Combat Casting|4|-

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Casting Style|5|3|-

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Bonus Feat, Advanced Learning|6|4|-|-

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Armored Casting (Shields)|6|5|3|-|-

    6th|
    +6
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Improved Casting Style|6|6|4|-|-|-

    7th|
    +7
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Bonus Feat|6|6|5|3|-|-|-

    8th|
    +8
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Armored Casting (Medium), Advanced Learning|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

    9th|
    +9
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    ||6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-

    10th|
    +10
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

    11th|
    +11
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Greater Casting Style|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-

    12th|
    +12
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Armored Casting (Heavy), Advanced Learning|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-

    13th|
    +13
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-

    14th|
    +14
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    ||6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-

    15th|
    +15
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    ||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-

    16th|
    +16
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Bonus Feat, Casting Style Mastery, Advanced Learning|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-

    17th|
    +17
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    ||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

    18th|
    +18
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    ||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

    19th|
    +19
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5

    20th|
    +20
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Advanced Learning|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
    [/table]

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The gish receives proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, with all non-exotic armor, and with all shields (except tower shields).

    Spellcasting: A gish is able to cast arcane spells, drawn from the gish spell list (see below). The gish knows all spells on her spell list, and must select and prepare her spells after 8 hours of rest, similar to a cleric or druid but without reliance on a certain time of day. She must have an Intelligence score of 10+Int to learn or cast a spell, and she receives bonus spells per day for a high Intelligence score (See page 8 of the Player's Handbook) The gish's caster level is equal to her gish level.

    Unlike most arcane casters, the gish spell list does not contain any spells that allow a saving throw, and so the gish does not have an ability score used to calculate saving throw DCs. (If a spell on the list does allow a saving throw, it automatically fails if the gish attempts to cast it on an unwilling target)

    Gish Spell List

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    1st- shield, protection from good, protection from chaos, protection from law, protection from evil, mage armor (treated as abjuration), mount, true strike, enlarge person, reduce person, magic weapon, feather fall, rhino's rush (SpC), claws of the bear (SpC), nightshield (SpC), ectoplasmic armor (SpC), benign transportation (SpC), blades of fire (SpC), arrow mind (SpC), critical strike (SpC), accelerated movement (SpC), cutting hand (SpC), ebon eyes (SpC), fist of stone (SpC), weapon shift (SpC), lesser deflect (PHB II), burning rage (PHB II), blade of blood (PHB II)

    2nd- resist energy, protection from arrows, see invisibility, blur, invisibility, mirror image, false life, alter self, bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, fox's cunning, darkvision, levitate, owl's wisdom, spider climb, daggerspell stance (SpC), balancing lorecall (SpC), burning sword (SpC), veil of shadow (SpC), shadow mask (SpC), fearsome grapple (SpC), swift fly (SpC), ghost touch armor (SpC), heroics (SpC), lively step (SpC), snake's swiftness (SpC), speak to allies (SpC), surefooted stride (SpC), swim (SpC), whirling blade (SpC), wraithstrike (SpC), deflect (PHB II), dimension hop (PHB II), insight of good fortune (PHB II), sure strike (PHB II), master's touch (PHB II), animalistic power (PHB II), lesser celerity (PHB II), lesser energy surge (PHB II), increase virulence (PHB II), share talents (PHB II), stretch weapon (PHB II)

    3rd- dispel magic, magic circle against law, magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, magic circle against good, nondetection, protection from energy, phantom steed, arcane sight, tongues, heroism, rage, displacement, invisibility sphere, blink, flame arrow, fly, gaseous form, haste, keen edge, greater magic weapon, water breathing, reverse arrows (SpC), greater mage armor (treated as abjuration) (SpC), mass mage armor (treated as abjuration) (SpC), regal procession (SpC), air breathing (SpC), amorphous form (SpC), bite of the wererat (SpC), deeper darkvision (SpC), diamondsteel (SpC), dolorous blow (SpC), dragonskin (SpC), giant's wrath (SpC), girallon's blessing (SpC), primal form (SpC), mass snake's swiftness (SpC), spiderskin (SpC), tremorsense (SpC), weapon of energy (SpC), weapon of impact (SpC), energy aegis (PHB II), dimension step (PHB II), regroup (PHB II), crown of might (PHB II), crown of protection (PHB II), energy surge (PHB II), menacing tentacles (PHB II)

    4th- lesser globe of invulnerability, remove curse, stoneskin, dimension door, greater invisibility, mass enlarge person, mass reduce person, polymorph, dispelling screen (SpC), ray of deflection (SpC), greater resistance (SpC), mass resist energy (SpC), battle hymn (SpC), bite of the werewolf (SpC), mass darkvision (SpC), displacer form (SpC), entangling staff (SpC), flame whips (SpC), flight of the dragon (SpC), sharptooth (SpC), spell enhancer (SpC), greater mirror image (PHB II), celerity (PHB II), trollshape (PHB II)

    5th- break enchantment, teleport, overland flight, contingent energy resistance (SpC), lesser ironguard (SpC), indomitability (SpC), greater dimension door (SpC), bite of the wereboar (SpC), greater blink (SpC), draconic might (SpC), dragonsight (SpC), greater enlarge person (SpC), fiendform (SpC), mass fly (SpC), gutsnake (SpC), nightstalker's transformation (SpC), greater reduce person (SpC)

    6th- greater dispel magic, globe of invulnerability, true seeing, greater heroism, mass bear's endurance, mass bull's strength, mass cat's grace, mass eagle's splendor, mass owl's wisdom, mass fox's cunning, transformation, superior resistance (SpC), gemjump (SpC), howling chain (SpC), bite of the weretiger (SpC), brilliant blade (SpC), cloak of the sea (SpC), stone body (SpC), chasing perfection (PHB II), greater energy surge (PHB II)

    7th- plane shift, greater teleport, greater arcane sight, power word blind, mass invisibility, ethereal jaunt, energy immunity (SpC), ironguard (SpC), kiss of the vampire (SpC), bite of the werebear (SpC), body of war (SpC), brilliant aura (SpC), elemental body (SpC), synostodweomer (SpC), mass animalistic power (PHB II)

    8th-mind blank, protection from spells, moment of prescience, iron body, superior invisibility (SpC), heart of stone (SpC), ghostform (SpC), chain dispel (PHB II), greater celerity (PHB II)

    9th- freedom, mage's disjunction, foresight, power word kill, shapechange, absorbtion (SpC), reaving dispel (SpC), dragonshape (PHB II), perfection*

    New Spell, described below

    Perfection
    (Transmutation)
    Gish 9
    Components: V, S
    Range: Personal
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Target: You
    Duration: 1 minute/level

    You gain a +8 enhancement bonus to each of your ability scores.



    Armor Casting (Ex): At 1st level, the gish is able, through dedicated martial training, to ignore the arcane spell failure chance from light armor. (This applies only to spells she gains from her levels in gish, not to any other arcane class).

    At 5th level, the gish may ignore arcane spell failure chance from bucklers, light and heavy shields. when she casts gish spells. Exotic and tower shields carry their normal spell failure chance for a gish.

    At 8th level, the gish may ignore arcane spell failure chance from medium armor when she casts gish spells.

    At 12th level, the gish may ignore arcane spell failure chance from heavy armor when she casts gish spells.

    Combat Casting (Ex): At 2nd level, the gish receives Combat Casting as a bonus feat.

    Casting Style (Ex): At 3rd level, the gish must select a casting style, which will reflect the rest of her class abilities. This is sort of like a cross between a wizard's specialization and a ranger's combat style. The gish chooses between a defensive casting style that focuses on abjuration, and an offensive style which focuses on transmutation. Once this choice is made, she cannot change it. (Choosing a casting style does not prevent the gish from casting spells of the other school)

    Defensive Style: A 3rd level gish who chooses the defensive style adds luminous armor and greater luminous armor (BoED) to her spell list. She may cast these spells even though if her alignment is not good, and does not take Strength damage after the casting ends. Additionally, any numerical bonus to her AC that she gains through a spell from the abjuration school grants her an additional +2 sametyped bonus to her AC for the duration of the spell.

    Offensive Style: A 3rd level gish who chooses offensive style gains the Ability Enhancer feat (Dragon 325) as a bonus feat, ignoring prerequisites.

    Advanced Learning (Ex): At 4th level, and every 4 levels after that, the gish may select a single abjuration or transmutation spell from the wizard/sorcerer spell list and add it to her spell list. The spell selected must be of a level equal to or lower than the highest spell level the gish is able to cast when she gains the feature, and it may not allow a saving throw unless it is Save: Yes (Harmless). The rule that any spell which allows a saving throw fails against an unwilling creature applies to any spell that the gish adds to her spell list from this class feature.

    Bonus Feat (Ex): At 4th level, and every 3 levels after that, the gish gains a bonus feat, which must either be chosen from the list of fighter bonus feats, or be a metamagic feat.

    Improved Casting Style (Ex): At 6th level, the gish receives another bonus from his casting style.

    Defensive Style: A 6th level defensive gish increases the damage reduction provided to her by any spell she casts (abjuration or no) by 5, or by 5/lv if the spell provides DR/lv (such as protection from arrows or stoneskin) Additionally, if the spell limits the damage to a certain amount per attack, such as stoneskin, that amount is increased by 5/attack. (So a 6th level defensive gish who cast protection from arrows would have DR 15/magic against each arrow attack, until it prevented 15 points of damage per caster level (max 150) )

    Offensive Style: A 6th level offensive gish treats the damage from any natural weapons he gains through spellcasting (transmutation or no) as if they were one size category larger, and also increases the damage added to his weapons by an additional dice. (So a 6th level offensive gish who cast lesser energy surge would deal an additional 2d6 points of energy damage with his next attack, while a 6th level Medium offensive gish who cast claws of the bear would grow a pair of claws that dealt 2d6 damage instead of 1d8)

    Greater Casting Style: An 11th level gish receives a very powerful boost to his casting style.

    Defensive Style: An 11th level defensive gish may cast abjuration spells with a casting time of 1 standard action or less as immediate actions instead. Additionally, all her abjuration spells have their duration doubled, as if they were cast with the Extend Spell feat, though without an increase in casting time or spell level. This stacks with the actual feat.

    Offensive Style: An 11th level offensive gish treats the maximum HD allowed for her spells from the polymorph subschool as if they were 5 higher. Additionally, all her transmutation spells have their duration doubled, as if they were cast with the Extend Spell feat, though without an increase in casting time or spell level. This stacks with the actual feat.

    Casting Style Mastery (Sp/Ex): At 16th level, the gish has completely mastered her combat style.

    Defensive Style: A 16th level defensive gish with at least 16 Intelligence gains the ability to cast greater dispel magic as a spell-like ability at will, with a caster level equal to her gish level. The bonuses from her casting style do not apply to this SLA, as it is not part of her spellcasting. Additionally, as long as the defensive gish has concealment due to her spellcasting, she gains immunity to non-magical attacks and 50% miss chance from non-force magical effects as if she were an incorporeal creature.

    Offensive Style: A 16th level offensive gish gains the shapechanger subtype and becomes immune to transmutation effects that she does not wish to affect her. Additionally, any enhancement bonuses to her ability scores granted by transmutation spells are treated as sacred (if the gish is good or neutral) or profane (if the gish is evil) instead of enhancement bonuses. Her Ability Enhancer feat now increases sacred or profane bonuses as well as enhancement bonuses. (Note: Any spell the gish casts that would provide an enhancement bonus to the ability score of a creature other than her still provides an enhancement bonus, the sacred/profane only applies to her)
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-12-30 at 06:57 PM.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Reserved for Feats, ACFs, and anything else I feel like adding later.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    This is pretty cool stuff, and from a quick glance it seems pretty level with most other gish builds. Sure spell selection is limited, but you've still got some monsters on that list too (Wraithstrike, Bite line, Celerity line, Polymorph line, Disjunction as a immediate action). The casting style features are easily as good as typical features you'd pick up from typical gish PRCs, and the whole thing is in a nice easy to use package.

    This is easily a Tier 2 class, and could function as a proper character from 1 to 20 in all but the most outrageously optimized campaigns. In a lot of ways it's easier to play than most Tier 2s, since it doesn't require PRC-dancing to keep up with the Joneses and can dedicate its skills and feats however it likes.

    One nitpick: Perfection needs a casting time (I assume its one standard action, though at a round per level that's pretty harsh for a 9th level spell, swift might be ok)

    EDIT: Continuing to look it over, this could probably have spells known as the Sorcerer (adjusted for non-level-delayed casting) and still be Tier 2. I don't think its broken as is, since optimally PRCed Sorcs and well built Psions are still very competitive with it (in total, if not quite in pure gishing), but the nerf wouldn't kill it if you start having second thoughts.
    Last edited by DeAnno; 2011-08-20 at 04:17 AM.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Changed perfection's duration to 1 min/level and added a casting time of 1 standard action.

    With such a large spell list, I feel that the sorcerer's meager 34 spells known would not suffice to allow the gish to perform its role as both combat powerhouse and party support. If you feel the class needs to be nerfed, please suggest something else.

    Edit: Also looking to add a capstone, suggestions would be welcome.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-08-20 at 09:47 AM.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Armor Casting: I'd suggest, in the spirit of the variant proposed for the Exotic Shield Proficiency feat in Races of Stone, that you consider the tower shield to be an exotic shield.

    Overall, I like how you've made such a potent and effective class simple and easy to understand. There might be a bit of a concern about people who PrC out at 12th level, though. For example, an offensive-style gish 11/abjurant champion 5 is gains quite a lot over gish 16.
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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Armor Casting: I'd suggest, in the spirit of the variant proposed for the Exotic Shield Proficiency feat in Races of Stone, that you consider the tower shield to be an exotic shield.

    Overall, I like how you've made such a potent and effective class simple and easy to understand. There might be a bit of a concern about people who PrC out at 12th level, though. For example, an offensive-style gish 11/abjurant champion 5 is gains quite a lot over gish 16.
    As a DM, fluff-wise, I wouldn't permit that, since the character has spent so much time training to be an offensive caster, but if someone wants that kind of power then I suppose it's good for them.

    (Changed Armor Casting as you suggested)

    What do you think of the incorporeal feature from Defensive Mastery?

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    The perfection spell might be a little powerful. A +8 to all scores? Then again I guess there aren't any 9th level 'buffing' spells, so I really don't have anything to judge it off of...
    My first concern with this class on an initial glance was the combat capability coupled with 9th level spells, but on a second look through I realized that the spell list is limited to mostly buffing spells, so that seems fine.
    I did notice there were a couple of spells that could buff allies. They really seem out of place for the fluff of the class (especially the mass ones). If you really need them there to make a sizable spell list, why not create a more powerful version of the non-mass versions?
    Gutsnake and menacing tentacles also seem out of place, but are, in my opinion, too much fun to remove.
    The incorporeal feature from defensive mastery is quite powerful in tandem with everything else. It looks impossible to judge its true balance without a few playtests though.

    edit- Apparently I'm a ninja. The thread doesn't show that I even made a post.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2011-08-20 at 04:45 PM.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Well, although I like this conceptually, this just seems a bit over powered to me. It's just a feeling that I get; a Full BAB and Full Caster who also gets all of his spell list? And his spell list is pretty darn good? And it can cast in heavy armor? Seems a bit much to me.

    Also: Rainbow Warsnake with this. That is all.
    Last edited by Shadow Lord; 2011-08-20 at 08:32 PM.
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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Hmm, blink or displacement essentially automatically generates a 75% combined miss chance. Powerful. OTOH, the wizard is astrally projecting in a level.

    Aesthetically, the abilities don't yet feel well-linked to one another; ditto with the spell list. It's just a collection of good spells and good features. On the other hand, the lack of specific flavor allows the class to be bent towards a variety of different character styles -- it's like the tofu of base classes.
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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    The perfection spell might be a little powerful. A +8 to all scores? Then again I guess there aren't any 9th level 'buffing' spells, so I really don't have anything to judge it off of...
    My first concern with this class on an initial glance was the combat capability coupled with 9th level spells, but on a second look through I realized that the spell list is limited to mostly buffing spells, so that seems fine.
    I did notice there were a couple of spells that could buff allies. They really seem out of place for the fluff of the class (especially the mass ones). If you really need them there to make a sizable spell list, why not create a more powerful version of the non-mass versions?
    Gutsnake and menacing tentacles also seem out of place, but are, in my opinion, too much fun to remove.
    The incorporeal feature from defensive mastery is quite powerful in tandem with everything else. It looks impossible to judge its true balance without a few playtests though.

    edit- Apparently I'm a ninja. The thread doesn't show that I even made a post.
    Perfection is an upgraded version of the 6th level spell chasing perfection from the PHB II, which is a +4 bonus to all scores. I figured it was balanced to double that bonus as a ninth level spell.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Hmm, blink or displacement essentially automatically generates a 75% combined miss chance. Powerful. OTOH, the wizard is astrally projecting in a level.

    Aesthetically, the abilities don't yet feel well-linked to one another; ditto with the spell list. It's just a collection of good spells and good features. On the other hand, the lack of specific flavor allows the class to be bent towards a variety of different character styles -- it's like the tofu of base classes.
    It's actually supposed to be the transmutation/abjuration equivalent of the dread necro/warmage/beguiler. I thought to myself, "What would emulate an abjurer/transmuter?"

    The only two things that came to mind were a banishing shapeshifter and a gish. So here we are.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Perfection is definitely no problem, at level 17 you already have all +4s and +6 items to your attributes. ... With the offensive style however, this gets serious!.

    I don't think that will lure many people away from the great defensive style ability at level 11 however. The two options seam balanced, if not a slight advantage for defense.

    By default, I don't see, why a Gish class should get more then Bard-like spells per day but whatever, I guess it would not be better then any core class at any level, if it had.

    What really bugs me is the big spell list all available all the time. That really seams like you are trying to sneak some stuff through under the radar of the DM to catch him off guard. The DM job is tough enough, you should not try this, so better replace the spellcasting mechanic by either a cleric like "know all and prepare" or a sorcerer like spells known selection.

    The idea of an ability-score independent spell casting is quite neat btw. Less MAD for the times you are supposed to build a character with 24 point buy or something.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maraxus1 View Post
    Perfection is definitely no problem, at level 17 you already have all +4s and +6 items to your attributes. ... With the offensive style however, this gets serious!.
    If the gish had any spells that required saving throws, I would say it was a dangerous spell simply because with the transmuter buffs it would add a +10 sacred bonus to your casting stat, which would give you a +5 to your DCs. But you don't, so it's not really that important to optimize your casting stat. (You get bonus spells per day, which is nice, but it's really hard to get more than 2/level anyway)

    I don't think that will lure many people away from the great defensive style ability at level 11 however. The two options seam balanced, if not a slight advantage for defense.
    That was intentional, as specializing in defense would give you more survivability (which is important for a wizard) but less power (which is more important for a warrior). So the defense option should really protect you. (After all, you still have d6 HD, which is the lowest HD in the game for a character with heavy armor proficiency)

    By default, I don't see, why a Gish class should get more then Bard-like spells per day but whatever, I guess it would not be better then any core class at any level, if it had.
    A gish is generally a wizard/fighter/eldritch knight/abjurant champion, etc etc. If you want to make a base class version of it, it needs to be as much like the wizard as possible.

    What really bugs me is the big spell list all available all the time. That really seams like you are trying to sneak some stuff through under the radar of the DM to catch him off guard. The DM job is tough enough, you should not try this, so better replace the spellcasting mechanic by either a cleric like "know all and prepare" or a sorcerer like spells known selection.
    WotC already set the precedent for that, but admittedly the spell lists for the classes who had them were a bit smaller than this. Perhaps I'll make the gish a prepared caster. Without access to many divination spells, he would have to play his casting much more wisely than a cleric or a wizard.

    The idea of an ability-score independent spell casting is quite neat btw. Less MAD for the times you are supposed to build a character with 24 point buy or something.
    Well, warriors are MAD enough already. Need Str to hit and damage, need Dex for a slight boost to AC, certain feats, and to not die from dragon's breath, need Con to not die from everything else, need Int for skill points and the Combat Expertise feat, and need Will to not turn on your party members when the enemy spellcasters get dominate person at 9th level. So, yeah. Didn't see the need to add to that. However, you can get much more use out of the Knowledge Devotion feat with this class than a normal wizard or cleric. So that's something.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Changed the gish to a prepared caster, which makes perfection a purely combat spell, as the bonus spells per day gained from it don't help if he doesn't spend an hour preparing the spells.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    I like this a lot for being a nice, simple and tightly focused arcane warrior build. That being said, I've got a few questions:

    • I like the mix of transmutation and abjuration akin to the beguiler, dread necromancer, warmage and unseen seer, but I notice this doesn't have advanced learning like all of those classes do. Is there any particular reason you didn't want to allow them to augment their spell list if they find an abjuration or transmutation spell they really like from another splatbook? As it is right now, all gishes have exactly the same spell list, which could get pretty samey.
    • Considering that Ability Enhancer is from Dragon #325 of all places, a reference or description of it would not be out of line.
    • I don't really like staggered armour arcane proficiency like this. Because by the time that you get to level 12, people have already got a sick suit of magic armour that they've tricked out, and it's kind of annoying to have to go buy a new suit of armour just to use your class feature. And that's ignoring the large number of people that would have just bought mithril heavy armour and don't care about that class feature at all because they didn't want to wait another 6 levels for the ability to use full plate. It's just not really that good is the main thing.
    • Any particular reason you didn't want to give them some sort of arcane channeling-esque ability? While they don't have super-damaging spells that they want to cast in the middle of battle, aside from the defensive specialization benefit at level 11 they don't have anything to help out with the action bottleneck that a gish always runs into. It's the same problem you find with gestalt warriors/mages, and this class doesn't really hav anything to help out with it. It would be nice to have some sort of way to leverage both your martial ability and arcane ability at the same time, so that they're not playing as a buffer one round and then a fighter the next with no bleed-over.
    • You've got a lot of boring levels where you don't gain a class feature aside from more spells with no new spell level. While that might be okay for a normal full spellcaster you don't have anywhere near the breadth of spells that they have, which means extra spells per day with no new spell level is kind of boring for you. In specific, these are levels 4, (8), 10, (12), 14, 18, 19, and 20. The ones in parantheses are the ones where you get nothing but armour casting, which is not very exciting as described above. Quite frankly, you could probably use some fighter or metamagic bonus feats on some of these levels to keep things interesting, especially since they're going to be in combat all the time. It's kind of mean, especially considering that the wizard and the fighter (and warblade, if we're being serious) both get bonus feats to specialize, whereas the gish gets nothing but their 7 normal feats to spread between both specialties.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    I like this a lot for being a nice, simple and tightly focused arcane warrior build. That being said, I've got a few questions:

    • I like the mix of transmutation and abjuration akin to the beguiler, dread necromancer, warmage and unseen seer, but I notice this doesn't have advanced learning like all of those classes do. Is there any particular reason you didn't want to allow them to augment their spell list if they find an abjuration or transmutation spell they really like from another splatbook? As it is right now, all gishes have exactly the same spell list, which could get pretty samey.

    The reason for that was because of the spontaneous list casting, but with a larger list than the dread necro or the warmage. Now that I've made it prepared though, I suppose I could add a few levels of it.


    • Considering that Ability Enhancer is from Dragon #325 of all places, a reference or description of it would not be out of line.
    Well, you just did, but I suppose I'll add it.


    • I don't really like staggered armour arcane proficiency like this. Because by the time that you get to level 12, people have already got a sick suit of magic armour that they've tricked out, and it's kind of annoying to have to go buy a new suit of armour just to use your class feature. And that's ignoring the large number of people that would have just bought mithril heavy armour and don't care about that class feature at all because they didn't want to wait another 6 levels for the ability to use full plate. It's just not really that good is the main thing.
    Yes, but it's certainly not balanced to allow it before level 12 either. Even if the class feature "isn't good" or appropriate by WBL standards, it's the feeling of completeness that is important. Besides, good magic items come from good DMs anyway, and unless you are a crafter, you're not going to be able to get the specific magic armor you want right when you want it anyway.



    • Any particular reason you didn't want to give them some sort of arcane channeling-esque ability? While they don't have super-damaging spells that they want to cast in the middle of battle, aside from the defensive specialization benefit at level 11 they don't have anything to help out with the action bottleneck that a gish always runs into. It's the same problem you find with gestalt warriors/mages, and this class doesn't really hav anything to help out with it. It would be nice to have some sort of way to leverage both your martial ability and arcane ability at the same time, so that they're not playing as a buffer one round and then a fighter the next with no bleed-over.
    Yeah, that would be because they have no spells to blast with. What kind of channeling would you suggest? I think you're looking at this from the wrong design point. This class isn't supposed to be for a wizard who wants to melee, it's supposed to be for a fighter who wants to use magic to enhance his melee. That's why the lack of blasts and offensive magic is there. The spellcasting is very self-centered.

    • You've got a lot of boring levels where you don't gain a class feature aside from more spells with no new spell level. While that might be okay for a normal full spellcaster you don't have anywhere near the breadth of spells that they have, which means extra spells per day with no new spell level is kind of boring for you. In specific, these are levels 4, (8), 10, (12), 14, 18, 19, and 20. The ones in parantheses are the ones where you get nothing but armour casting, which is not very exciting as described above. Quite frankly, you could probably use some fighter or metamagic bonus feats on some of these levels to keep things interesting, especially since they're going to be in combat all the time. It's kind of mean, especially considering that the wizard and the fighter (and warblade, if we're being serious) both get bonus feats to specialize, whereas the gish gets nothing but their 7 normal feats to spread between both specialties.
    I suppose a few feats wouldn't hurt.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2015-05-09 at 02:13 PM. Reason: fixed formatting glitch

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Yeah, that would be because they have no spells to blast with. What kind of channeling would you suggest? I think you're looking at this from the wrong design point. This class isn't supposed to be for a wizard who wants to melee, it's supposed to be for a fighter who wants to use magic to enhance his melee. That's why the lack of blasts and offensive magic is there. The spellcasting is very self-centered.
    Well, there are certainly a few ways to do a buff/defense oriented channeling ability that would make it play differently than a transmuter//fighter gestalt in the same way a duskblade plays differently than an evoker//fighter.

    For instance, you could have things like letting them cast a single transmutation or abjuration spell as a free action when they roll initiative. Or you could let them precast an abjuration, and only have it activate (be cast) when they're hit by an effect which it would be effective against (such as priming energy resistance, which activates when they're hit by an acid effect). Or let them get a swift action cast spell in the middle of their attack routine when they score a critical hit. Or give them abilities like shadow pounce to use dimension door-type combat teleports in conjunction with their fightan prowess.

    All I'm saying is that the class could be a lot more interesting and fun to play if there were more ways to leverage the two specializations together instead of keeping them in locked rooms away from one another.
    Last edited by Kellus; 2011-08-21 at 07:16 PM. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    Well, there are certainly a few ways to do a buff/defense oriented channeling ability that would make it play differently than a transmuter//fighter gestalt in the same way a duskblade plays differently than an evoker//fighter.

    For instance, you could have things like letting them cast a single transmutation or abjuration spell as a free action when they roll initiative. Or you could let them precast an abjuration, and only have it activate (be cast) when they're hit by an effect which it would be effective against (such as priming energy resistance, which activates when they're hit by an acid effect). Or let them get a swift action cast spell in the middle of their attack routine when they score a critical hit. Or give them abilities like shadow pounce to use dimension door-type combat teleports in conjunction with their fightan prowess.

    All I'm saying is that the class could be a lot more interesting and fun to play if there were more ways to leverage the two specializations together instead of keeping them in locked rooms away from one another.
    I gave them plenty of abilities already, but...I don't know. A lot of what you've suggested strikes me as too powerful. I mean, you suggest casting and holding energy resistance. I kept contingency off the spell list for that very reason. The ability to violate the action economy is one of the wizard's most powerful assets, but the ability to violate it before battles even start with 24 hour durations and contingent spells is just unfair. (As is the ability to prepare spells with divination)

    Casting a spell while rolling initiative would allow the gish to act while flat-footed. That's a huge no. Not even immediate actions are allowed then.

    Teleporting is conjuration magic, so while they have it for utility purposes, they won't be getting any class feature enhancement for it.

    Casting when they have a critical hit? I'm not exactly sure what they'd be casting. I mean, if all their buffs are already up, the only thing they have left to do is dispel. And if all their buffs aren't up, well, they have better things to be doing than swinging their sword.

    The ability to cast abjuration spells as an immediate action is even more powerful than granting a free Quicken Spell to all spells of that school. And with a pretty much buff-centered list, it will allow the defensive gish to attack on his turn and protect himself on his opponent's turn. But with spells like bite of the werebear, polymorph and shapechange, I'm reticent to allow the offensive gish to have free buffing there. Besides, I gave the class celerity. If they want to buff so badly, they can do it, for a spell and a price. If I gave them something better than celerity, well, that would just take away the point of making them a prepared caster in the first place.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-08-21 at 07:39 PM.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    I like the class, but I have a nitpick.
    Having 6 spells per day for 9 levels of spells is not a small number of spells per day.
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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    I like the class, but I have a nitpick.
    Having 6 spells per day for 9 levels of spells is not a small number of spells per day.
    Fixed.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Someone needs to make more Bear feats....

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Bump in hopes that anyone has a suggestion for a good capstone, as having a class I made up for longer than 2 weeks without a capstone gives me a rash.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    This class really (of course) shines when multiclassing, replacing the wizard in a normal gish build. It loses the ability to use a wand of MM to handle tough enemies, but gains the ability to use full-BAB with the casting. Definitely a must-have for arcane archer.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    This class really (of course) shines when multiclassing, replacing the wizard in a normal gish build. It loses the ability to use a wand of MM to handle tough enemies, but gains the ability to use full-BAB with the casting. Definitely a must-have for arcane archer.
    *blinks* An arcane archer? The class that attaches AOE spells to arrows? When the gish has absolutely no AOE spells to attach?

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    *blinks* An arcane archer? The class that attaches AOE spells to arrows? When the gish has absolutely no AOE spells to attach?
    You're thinking of the caster with an Arcane Archer 2 dip. I was referring to a more "straight" arcane archer, who takes the class for the (eventually) +5 enhancement bonus to arrows (allowing you to spend 9 points of your bow's enchantment on nifty special abilities.)

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    You're thinking of the caster with an Arcane Archer 2 dip. I was referring to a more "straight" arcane archer, who takes the class for the (eventually) +5 enhancement bonus to arrows (allowing you to spend 9 points of your bow's enchantment on nifty special abilities.)
    Ah. Well, good. Most people hate the arcane archer, so it's good that there's a single base class that would get it some love. And, as being an archer would totally waste the gish's potential (Melee monster with polymorph or heavy Str increases), I think it's a fair trade.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Ah. Well, good. Most people hate the arcane archer, so it's good that there's a single base class that would get it some love. And, as being an archer would totally waste the gish's potential (Melee monster with polymorph or heavy Str increases), I think it's a fair trade.
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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Hmm, could a flying gish polymorphed into an arrow demon use symmetrical archery with a pair of splitting footbows? Str x 1.5 to damage, easily 20 arrows per full attack, bite of the werebear to boost your Str to 37 at least... crunchy!
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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Hmm, could a flying gish polymorphed into an arrow demon use symmetrical archery with a pair of splitting footbows? Str x 1.5 to damage, easily 20 arrows per full attack, bite of the werebear to boost your Str to 37 at least... crunchy!
    Arrow demon? I have never heard of this creature before.

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    Default Re: The Gish (3.5 Base Class, WIP, PEACH)

    its from mm3
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