Vote Up A Paladin Fix! Round One

[Ziegander]

Vote Up A Paladin Fix

Okay, so I've done a few Paladin fixes in my day, and I've only ever really been happy with one, the Swordsaint. But it's not really a Paladin is it? So, I have some of my own ideas as to what makes a Paladin, but I've never been much good at shaping them so that they combine into a cohesive class. That's where the wonderful GitP community comes in! What I need from you fine folk is input regarding what YOU think a Paladin class should be all about.

Round 1

In this round the votes will decide what the primary characteristics of a Paladin class should be. Sure, sure, he's a holy knight, dedicated to the protection of others and the harmony of utopian order. Or is he? What do YOU think a Paladin's primary characteristics should be?

I would like for voters to vote for no more but no less than four of the aspects. Four different aspects or building blocks should be plenty of breadth and depth to build a class around. More will result in messy results and less risks having too little to do the Paladin concept justice.

THE ASPECTS
(Final Tally)

{table=head]Aspect|Votes

Spiritual|8
Physical|34
Alignment Restriction|5
Smite|17
Auras|12
Spellcasting|7
Mounted Combat|5
Agent of the Gods|4
Healer|17
Protector|35
Inquisitor|3
Commander|16
Agent of Good (Other)|17
Religious Crusader (Other)|8
Sworn Foe (Undead/Deathless) (Other)|2
Other*|*

[/table]

I'll be leaving the poll up until next Saturday, August 20th, sometime in the early morning. Voters may choose to rank their votes from 1st to 4th (most important to least important). If a voter does, his or her votes will be weighed in a point scale (1st - 4 points, 2nd - 3 points, 3rd - 2 points, 4th - 1 point). Voters may also choose not to rank their votes, indicating to me that they believe that all four of their votes share equal importance given each of those aspects an equal weight worth 3 points.

Voters are also encouraged to elaborate on what their chosen aspects mean to them, how they feel about the aspects, and how they think they should work.

*A Voter that votes Other MUST elaborate on what their vote means and how it contributes to being a Paladin. Later voters are free to second a previous poster's Other vote.

If anyone has any questions, let me know. I'll try to tally the votes at the end of every day or so. I hope enough of you participate in order to help make this the best Paladin fix we can! Let's vote!

(Future Sight)

Our next round, after tallying the votes of Round 1, will be focused on shaping the majority voted aspects into a concept, a vision for the creation of actual mechanics. Round will be about deciding on how exactly to use the aspects voted up in Round 1 to produce a fitting fluff description of the Paladin class with which to use in designing the class and its features.

[Loki_42]

Let's see, my votes are(not particularly ranked, but the first three are more important than the last.)

Physical- These are the warriors. Let the clerics be the priests, aiding and supporting as they can, but paladins should be up front with a sword killing baddies.

Protector- A Paladin is supposed to be a tank. They stand in the center of a hoard of evil, and don't come out until every last one has fallen or been shown the error of their ways.

Commander- A Paladin just feels right as a leader to me. They should be the ones at the front of the charge, making the decisions that determine the success of the battle.

Auras- Really, this came down to a choice between these and smites. Why did I let go of such an iconic ability? Because, while I feel like smite has it's use, and honestly don't expect this fix to lose it, Aura's really fit my view of the paladin. Throwing up his sword and leading his friends to battle while giving them heavy buffs is just an image that works in my mind.

Good luck on the fix.

[Howler Dagger]

1 Healer
2 Protector
3 Mounted Combat
4 Commander

[The Underlord]

Rank
1. Smite-the iconic ability of paladins to bring justice upon evil
Agent of Good(other)-the paladins in my mind are agents of good who try to defeat evil and help other people
2. Alignment resttriction(good only) see above
3. Physical- they are not really holy man as they are just agents of good who try to defeat evil.
4. Commander- they are not on a one person mission, they inspire allies to fightt evil.

[gkathellar]

I'm too stunned to say anything clever about this idea.

Spiritual
Physical
Healer
Protector

[Ziegander]

Why did I let go of such an iconic ability? Because, while I feel like smite has it's use, and honestly don't expect this fix to lose it...

Rest assured, that if Smite isn't given its due in this initial voting round I won't be planning on adding it to the class. This is an aim to distill only what the people decide they want in a Paladin fix.

I'm too stunned to say anything clever about this idea.

Stunned in a good way, I hope. You did vote after all.

[jiriku]

1st - protector
2nd - smite
3rd - spellcasting
4th -auras

[Domriso]

I'll be leaving the poll up until next Saturday, October 20th,

Uh, do you mean August? Just want to make sure I haven't stepped through a time vortex in the past hour. It would kind of suck.

That being said:

1st - Agent of the Gods
I've always pictured Paladins as being those who are empowered by their deity, so this fits well.
2nd - Physical
More than almost anything else, the Paladin has always stood out as someone who fights with a sword and shield (or sometimes a mace, and occasionally a scythe) for their deity, or for the good of others, so ths is a big one.
3rd - Auras
I like Auras. I think their fun. So, stick that in there as well.
4th - Inquisitor
It's not so big, but I do think of some Paladins as being able to inquisite others, so let's stick this 'un here.

[eftexar]

1 > Physical (without this, the paladin might as well be a cleric)
2 > Protector (too much of a classic to exlude)
3 > Inquisitor (Throughout history religious groups have punished heathens for their beliefs)
4 > Other - Crusader (I'm thinking along the lines of the Templar, fighting to spread their religion )

[Ziegander]

Uh, do you mean August? Just want to make sure I haven't stepped through a time vortex in the past hour. It would kind of suck.

Whoops. Yes, I mean August...

Also, the votes are tallied! At the end of Day 1, the top 4 are:

Protector - 16
Physical - 14
Healer - 7
Smite - 7

Thanks to everyone who already voted!

[Yitzi]

I see a paladin as somewhat of a warrior/cleric hybrid. So the most important parts are:
-Alignment restriction (Lawful Good). This is the most important by far, as it defines what the paladin is.
-Physical. This is his main focus.
-Healer and spellcaster. He shouldn't be great at either one, but should be present to some extent.

It seems to me that a paladin fix should place him somewhere between the fighter and the clericzilla in pretty much all areas.

[dawnsolara]

I view paladins as physical, dynamic leaders, that can get in melee with the rest of the physical classes, but isn't, say, as straight-on beat-down-ish as a barbarian. But, most importantly, a paladin should be dedicated to either a god or an ideal (if not both). So my votes are for, in rough order of importance:

(1) Commander
(2) Protector
(3) Spiritual
(4) Physical

Not-so-incidentally, I'm working on a base class that embodies these ideas, but made for Tome play, and with fluff that is strictly build-your-own. Something like that for a paladin fix could be cool - a generic class that the player customizes to work for their diety/ideal/whatever.

[Phosphate]

Well I LOVE Heroes, so...

1. Physical
2. Mounted Combat
3. Commander
4. Healer

In that order.

[Togath]

1: Protector
2: Healer
3: Other(anti undead[if good]/anti deathless[if evil])
4: Psysical

[I, Dashing Cube]

Physical
Protector
Auras
Commander

[Bovine Colonel]

Spiritual - Paladins, in my opinion, should focus primarily on combat. Spellcasting and the like better fit the Cleric.
Physical - The paladin is primarily a knight of justice. A spellcaster of justice is a Cleric.
Alignment Restriction - Paladins are Good with a dash of Lawful. Exemplars of other alignments should have different class features to match.
Smite - I feel that all warriors that make use of supernatural power should be able to channel that power for a devastating blow.
Auras - I feel that this shouldn't be an independent concept so much as part of Commander.
Spellcasting - Better left to the Cleric in my opinion. Paladin spells shouldn't interrupt combat or only happen outside it.
Mounted Combat - I didn't choose this because I felt that it was too specific; some paladins are mounted but others aren't.
Agent of the Gods - Paladins can work independently of gods, acting directly in the name of justice.
Healer - See Spellcasting.
Protector - Nothing preventing a Paladin from being, say, an archer.
Inquisitor - I feel that this should be better left to the Cleric or its own class.
Commander - The Paladin is a hero that inspires allies to do great deeds as well as his or her own.
Agent of Good (Other) - Part of Alignment Restriction, in my opinion.
Religious Crusader (Other) - Part of Agent of the Gods, in my opinion.

[Zale]

Voting... Thread.. Must.. Vote..

In order from most to least.

Protector
This seems like a role they would do. They protect those without the power to protect themselves.

Agent Of Good
Paladins are the agents of the very concept of what is good and holy. They serve no gods because they need not.

Physical
Paladins are warriors. While the clerics can fight, the paladins are made to fight.

Smite
An iconic ability, and one that should be kept.

[Ziegander]

@Drachir: Thank you for the write ups giving me insight into your votes!

@Zale: Should I assume then, that you're ranking those votes for the purposes of determining vote weight?

Alignment Restriction - Paladins are Good with a dash of Lawful. Exemplars of other alignments should have different class features to match.

Interesting point, and something I would feel compelled to explore should Alignment Restriction emerge among the top four aspects.

Auras - I feel that this shouldn't be an independent concept so much as part of Commander.

But keep in mind, everyone, that an Aura is not necessarily a positive, inspirational effect as used by the Marshal. Sure, there's the easy Aura of Courage to point to, but what of Auras that damage foes that strike you and allies with holy power, surround you and allies with a sheath of holy frost, or hedge out evil creatures with divine power?

So, while a Commander might use Auras like Courage, Concentration, or Vigor, a Paladin that isn't a Commander can still use other auras of supernatural divine power.

Healer - See Spellcasting.

Again, as Lay On Hands, Touch of Vitality, or even the Crusader class have shown us, a Paladin does not need to cast spells to do his healing, so don't feel constrained by the notion that all healing is done through spellcasting.

Protector - Nothing preventing a Paladin from being, say, an archer.

And there is nothing preventing an archer from being a Protector (see Warrior's Way in my signature, specifically the Falling Star discipline, for more details).

Commander - The Paladin is a hero that inspires allies to do great deeds as well as his or her own.

We don't have many great examples of the "lead by example" concept in D&D. Most of the leadership abilities for 3.5 characters are more along the lines of barking orders and direct assistance.

[Zale]

Yes, sorry about the lack of clarity.

[Ziegander]

Not a problem, friend.

Also, just as an aside to anyone following the thread, as commentary is given by posters, I will try to respond, and if at any time a voter feels that he or she would like to change his or her vote, make sure to post in the thread that you are changing your vote, including in the new post what you are changing it to, and then also edit your original voting post to match the change. You may change votes up until the deadlines for each round.

EDIT: And the votes have been tallied! At the end of Day 2, the top four are as follows:

Physical - 31 votes
Protector - 30 votes
Commander - 18 votes
Healer - 14 votes

Thanks again everyone, and I hope to see some more votes tomorrow! This is getting exciting!

[Bovine Colonel]

But keep in mind, everyone, that an Aura is not necessarily a positive, inspirational effect as used by the Marshal. Sure, there's the easy Aura of Courage to point to, but what of Auras that damage foes that strike you and allies with holy power, surround you and allies with a sheath of holy frost, or hedge out evil creatures with divine power?

So, while a Commander might use Auras like Courage, Concentration, or Vigor, a Paladin that isn't a Commander can still use other auras of supernatural divine power.

I suppose. However, I still feel that Auras aren't as important to the Paladin concept as some of the other aspects. Perhaps I'd include it if we had more votes, but we don't.

Again, as Lay On Hands, Touch of Vitality, or even the Crusader class have shown us, a Paladin does not need to cast spells to do his healing, so don't feel constrained by the notion that all healing is done through spellcasting.

I'm not. What I meant was that healing, like spellcasting, should a) not interrupt combat, b) happen outside combat, or c) be left to the Cleric.

And there is nothing preventing an archer from being a Protector (see Warrior's Way in my signature, specifically the Falling Star discipline, for more details).

Alright, how's this: I feel that Protection should be a probably-but-not-certainly-used part of the Physical aspect.

We don't have many great examples of the "lead by example" concept in D&D. Most of the leadership abilities for 3.5 characters are more along the lines of barking orders and direct assistance.

Mostly I'm thinking along the lines of the Pathfinder paladin's Aura of Justice ability, which grants allies a smite evil ability with the Paladin's modifiers. Also, White Raven maneuvers.

[SamBurke]

Well, my fav class is Paladin, and I think Pathfinder did a good job with the class, but this looks interesting indeed.

1. Religious Crusader
2. Spiritual
3. Protector
4. Agent of Good

[Ziegander]

Voting has drastically slowed down over the weekend. If this is a sign of things to come I suppose I'll close down Round 1 early. If you haven't yet voted, and you still wish to get those votes in!

The tally at the end of Day 4 is up and the top four haven't changed a bit:

Protector - 35 votes
Physical - 33 votes
Commander - 19 votes
Healer - 14 votes

[togapika]

1 Agent of Good
2 Protector
3 Physical
4 Commander

[Bovine Colonel]

I've changed my mind, mostly due to the fact that a Paladin can, in fact, perform a solo mission. Therefore, I think Commander works better as a subset of Auras.

Also, I'm not sure how Agent of Good isn't a subset of Alignment. Can someone explain this?

As such, my votes are now Physical, Agent of Good, Smite, and Auras.

[Ziegander]

Also, I'm not sure how Agent of Good isn't a subset of Alignment. Can someone explain this?

The difference for me is that Alignment Restriction could mean any alignment, as long as there is some restriction to it. So, while voting for Alignment Restriction means that you want the Paladin's alignment to be restricted in some unspecified way, Agent of Good is a vote that tells me you want the Paladin to not only need to be good-aligned, but also embody all that is goodness.

I have an idea though. I'll be sending PMs to everyone who voted Alignment Restriction and ask them to specify exactly what they mean by that vote. From now on, anyone who wishes to vote Alignment Restriction must explain their vote.

Furthermore, would anyone have a problem if I changed all votes for Agent of Good into votes for Alignment Restriction (Good)? With changes made to the Alignment Restriction aspect, we may have a vote-tally swing on our hands! Hang on to your seats!

EDIT: With the votes in (alignment restriction and agent of good kept separate for now) we have a split decision! Tied for 4th in the running now are Healer and Agent of Good with 14 votes each!

Hopefully I hear back from the other alignment/agent of good voters soon, because if just one other person is in the Alignment Restriction (Good) camp, then we have an upset!

[eftexar]

I think Agent of Good is a bit different than Alignment Restriction. Alignment restriction simply implies that you must have a code of honor and can't violate it. Agent of Good implies that you spread things that are good, and is therefore not as restricting as an alignment restriction. While they both lend to the same concept, I think the class abilities they might lend to are completely different.
If you are going to eliminate it, then I would allow recasting of those votes.

[togapika]

Then change my #1 to Alignment Restriction: Good

[Ziegander]

I think Agent of Good is a bit different than Alignment Restriction. Alignment restriction simply implies that you must have a code of honor and can't violate it. Agent of Good implies that you spread things that are good, and is therefore not as restricting as an alignment restriction. While they both lend to the same concept, I think the class abilities they might lend to are completely different.
If you are going to eliminate it, then I would allow recasting of those votes.

While they are subtly different, I am folding Agent of Good into Alignment Restriction, with the caveat that voters for Alignment Restriction must specify which alignments they are actually wishing for the Paladin to be restricted to. They are just far too similar to exist separately.

Voters are definitely being allowed to recast their votes.

@togapika: Gotcha, thank you.

[The Underlord]

I changed my vote.