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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    ok, I've go a problem. My DM wants me to use the Crit Fail table and i don't want to use it, mostly because i think its silly. at lest without a roll to confirm.

    I made two attacks with my claws (playing a vampire druid who specializes in claw attacks) missed with the first on a 1 (which was really a 5 due to my bonus to hit). Now i need to roll on this table to see what happens.

    My problem is this, i dont think that any warrior should twist their ankle 1/20th of the time they make an attack. that's why i like crit confirms. it allows you to factor in your actual skill (your BAB) to the problem rather than just making it a matter of probability.

    But aside from the above rant, my question remains.

    How do i approach telling him "No, i won't use this table."?
    Last edited by Hawkfrost000; 2011-08-31 at 07:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Didn't someone do a statistical analysis that says that these tables screw over players far more than they screw over DMs? Because the DM plays many characters all the time? Maybe you could dig that up? Also there was some analysis which means that LOWER LEVEL characters end up being better off than higher level, more powerful characters, and lower level characters make fewer mistakes than higher level ones with these crit tables, which doesn't make any sense? AND these tables limit the sorts of concepts which can be made in roleplaying, IE, characters that are dramatically capable of out-damaging their hit point total?
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2011-08-31 at 07:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    I completly like random tables for crits, both fumbles and crit attacks. Just ask your DM to allow a confirmation roll.

    Unless, of course, he intends to allow a 20 to be a auto-crit, instead of a critical threat. This will probably be enough.

    However, if he don't want to listen to reason and says something like: No, if you roll 20 you must confirm to be awesome, if you roll 1 you're ****ed without chance, tell him to say this sentence again, slowly.

    If it doesn't work, well, suck it. There are worse DM flaws than forcing a stupid no-confirmation fumble...
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Didn't someone do a statistical analysis that says that these tables screw over players far more than they screw over DMs?
    What do you need statistical analysis for? That a PC will make far more attack rolls than any given NPC over a campaign seems obvious, as does the fact that higher level PCs make more attacks per round than lower level ones.

    Anyhow, once the table kills your current PC, make one focusing on single powerful attack, such as ToB or mounted charger, and invest some on luck feats to reroll nat 1's. That, or a caster/DFA not using attack rolls.

    Any DM who thinks that table (without even confirmation) is a good idea has at least temporary difficulties with their cognitive abilities. That is to say, they're fools. Your chances of reasoning with one are pretty low, so you'll have to go with it or drop from the game.

    [Edit]: Unless it's not a serious game, in which case, go wacky.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2011-08-31 at 07:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    With a table like that in an otherwise normal D&D 3.5e game, I would threaten to walk... AFTER explaining the faults of the math to him (again, I've gotta find some of those proofs)... If it is in a slapstick game where I am not supposed to have any attachment to my character, and he said that at the BEGINNING, I'd be okay with it.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2011-08-31 at 07:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by DiBastet View Post
    If it doesn't work, well, suck it. There are worse DM flaws than forcing a stupid no-confirmation fumble...
    i guess...

    i must admit my first reaction was really knee jerk. it just really grates with how i perceive the fighting mechanics of the game. also that he didn't tell us this before it came up.

    Also, an npc that we are fighting rolled a one while attacking my Animal Companion and did not take a crit fail.

    So yeah, im just a bit worried, because i really like this campaign and i want it to go places.
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Well, the issue is one of iterative probability. Any player character is FAR more likely to experience fumbles than any NPC, so they have a far far higher chance of being screwed over by such a table than any character the DM cares about. Further, the DM can pad the encounters with LOTS of characters, but the player characters tend not to have this option. FURTHER, this totally screws over people who do work by hitting things with weapons, who hardly need to be made WEAKER in D&D 3.5e. ALSO, these tables aren't heroic. A Barbarian who charges and deals a few hundred damage on a full attack, slaughtering an iron golem (or whatever) through SHEER AWESOMENESS is an epic and incredible character to behold, but with this table, making a character like that is INSANE, because he will inevitably end up killing himself, whereas a simple low level fighter who does a moderate amount of damage with a one handed longsword, and isn't doing much of anything INTERESTING is far less likely to kill themselves or folk near them, despite being far, far, far, FAR more boring. It also screws over ANY melee character whose schtick is that they make lots of attacks.

    In a game like this, I would consider making characters which NEVER MAKE AN ATTACK ROLL EVER. Like certain types of Warlocks or Wizards.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2011-08-31 at 07:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    @Gavinfoxx: in the event that i have to explain why i don't want to use the fail tables can i just copy paste that?

    you summarized my feelings almost exactly without getting into the whole "its not realistic" fallacy.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    I suggest liberal application of fire.
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by Circle of Life View Post
    I suggest liberal application of fire.
    Does that work over the internet?
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Also monsters often don't have weapons to drop, and PC's DO. This screws over PC's UNEQUIVOCALLY, in several profound ways. I mean look at 'fool' and 'unaware'. Some of my favorite character concepts would end up killing any character in the party (or themselves) if they deal the MINIMUM DAMAGE ON A NORMAL HIT.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2011-08-31 at 07:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Macab View Post
    Does that work over the internet?
    Yes. Enough fire works anywhere.

    Gavinfoxx already covered the pertinent bits. Really, crit fumbles are one of the WORST ideas you can put in 3.5. It makes people less likely to play melee characters out of frustration (bad), more likely to make casters that don't have to roll to win (bad), and detracts from the fun of the players for no reason, save for possible DM sadism (bad).

    There is no good that comes from this.
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by Circle of Life View Post
    Yes. Enough fire works anywhere.
    yesssss

    i suppose i could consume everywhere between me and him in fire.

    that would be fun

    anyways, thanks guys for giving me some very good points. And confirming that i'm not insane in my hatred of Crit Fail tables.
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Critical Misses really shouldn't be used without unanimous consent. If they are, then they should allow for a second save or roll of some sort before a penalty is incurred. the DMG suggestion for critical misses/fumbles was a DC 10 Reflex save or the character drops their weapon. If a critical fumble table is used, then some sort of extra save should be used.

    In general this just hurts the characters who attack more often than characters who use fewer attack rolls. A TWF Fighter or similar character would get the worst of things because they would be dropping their weapons or stabbing themselves on accident the most often while not having a great reflex save to recover.

    If the DM has an even rudimentary understanding of the class tiers, then it might be good to point out that the higher tier characters often do the fewest rolls and that a general policy like that one will only encourage players to gravitate towards characters that use fewer attack rolls. When a critical miss table like that one comes into play, it just encourages lots of metagaming. Players have to make sure that their character uses as few rolls as possible to do melee damage and that whenever they attack they'll be unlikely to do more damage than they have current hit points so that they don't end up killing themselves.

    ~

    If your DM doesn't understand how class tiers work, then it would be good to sit down with your DM along with other players involved and calmly explain that you don't like the fumbles table because you think it makes the entire game less fun. D&D is supposed to be a game in which this strange intangible thing called Fun happens. Fumble tables can occasionally be Fun in the right group, but your group thinks that using that rule variant will only scare the Fun away.

    ~

    I personally DM a game in which I would enjoy using the fumbles table, but I know that the one player who uses lots of melee attacks in the group would hate it to death. In a group full of people who think its funny when each of their characters die and enjoy the Tomb of Horrors, a fumbles table can be hilarious. In a group that hates when their character dies and doesn't enjoy having their level 15 Warblade accidentally critically stab himself with a Fullblade while making a full power attack maneuver, the fumbles table is a bad idea.
    Last edited by HunterOfJello; 2011-08-31 at 08:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by DiBastet View Post
    If it doesn't work, well, suck it. There are worse DM flaws than forcing a stupid no-confirmation fumble...
    Depends on the fumble chart. About half of the one Darius linked, I could live with- I wouldn't like it, but I could live with it. If you must have critical fumbles, effects like "you make an awkward attack and enemy ripostes strongly, you provoke an AoO from your target" or "your sword/shield is caught out of defensive position, -AC on the next attack against you" are reasonably appropriate. But anything that includes "hit/crit self or ally" is right out, and I would refuse to abide by those results, and would call enforcing them (and believing they're reasonable in the first place) a fairly severe DM flaw.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Yea, my main issue is the ability to DEAL DAMAGE TO YOURSELF OR ALLIES. I can go with high level characters being more likely to make mistakes than low level characters -- over strenuous objections! -- but more likely to kill themselves and their friends??

    Ask what the DM wishes to encourage with this table? Realism? Fun? Chaos?
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2011-08-31 at 08:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Aww, jeez, someone else is using that table?

    Okay, a question occurs... how the hell is "roll DEX" supposed to work?

    Is it a Reflex save? Is it a Dex check? If so to either of these, what's the difficulty? Why on earth would they word it like that?

    If you haven't guessed, our GM is using that table, and it's gone a long way to making things harder for our poor TWF Fighter. For one, he has pretty bad luck with his dice rolls, and he is the one who most frequently gets attacks leveled at him (and the GM has a horrendous habit of rolling natural 20s), and he also makes the most attacks out of the group.

    By contrast, my Wizard has a Luckblade (no wishes, though), so when I do roll terribly, I have the option of erasing it with a reroll. Likewise, the Cleric decided to go with the Luck domain.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-08-31 at 08:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Block of Hate
    I don't agree. Oh I on't agree.

    And see why, OP. Why I don't believe in the "pcs will make many more rolls than any npc the dm cares about" fallacy.

    This point of view, op, implies that somehow the dm is being vs the players. First, I don't believe that the games of today are like this. Second, even if it is, the DM will be against the players in any case, with ot without table.

    However, this point fails to understand that, if the DM is "against the players", it's the DM who is against, and not npc X or Y. If the npc two-weapon fighting shuriken thrower monk attacks the party 6 attacks in a round, he's got a chance to fail at each. This argument says that "but he'll probably die in this encounter, so he didn't have so many chances to fail as the pcs", however the DM is still rolling attacks with many other monsters and npcs. So, I don't really see the point on the whole fallacy! If it's DM vs PLAYER, does it matter that it's a lot of npcs vs a single pc (and maybe summoned monsters?).

    I, however, disagree with the whole point of "making the game more realistic". In my opinion this is fallacy, because it's not a realistic game. In this scenario you make physical combat more realistic but leaves the spell system in place as it is? So the physical combat receives some nerf because of realism and magic doesn't? I only accept this fallacy if the magic system does something like causing CON or WIS drain (magic drains your life, or eats your sanity), at least the two highest levels a caster can use.

    If the dm says "because I believe it's cool", or "because adds more drama" or whatever, then you have to suck it. Really. Implore for his sense of balance, and ask:

    Or we confirm BOTH crits AND fumbles.

    Or we don't confirm fumbles NEITHER crits.

    Since you DO care about the campaign, it won't help you fight over this matter, not even "tell him he's wrong and go away, or take his group and dm for them", or even confronting him by saying "so I won't make a character who rolls attacks because this is stupid", and you know why? Because he wants to add this rule because he believes it IS cool.

    And I will tell you, while many players don't like it (as there are some bad players who refuse to play my games because I turned every caster into spontaneous and reworked the combat system so melee is REALLY powerful and versatile), critical fumbles and hits can make some really nice moments in the game.

    As final thoughts: As a dm with many years under my belt, and who had my share of houserules and bad players, don't, ever, be a disruptive player if you care about the game. It takes you nowhere. Talk with the dm about the balance of the rule, because it's your best bet to make the rule more balanced than to make the mind of the DM to leave the rule behind.


    Ps: You must know if you people are going to use ONLY the critical hit and fumble TABLES or the whole system as presented in the link. If you're going to use the system, note that there is NO confirmation for crits NOR fumbles, only a d100 roll.
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    If I were in a group with that table in play and nothing I said or did could sway it, I'd just roll a DFA. I think my old DFA rolled a single attack in his career, and that was a why-the-hell-not AoO.

    So in some sense, yes, "liberal application of fire" does apply . . .
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Depends on the fumble chart. About half of the one Darius linked, I could live with- I wouldn't like it, but I could live with it. If you must have critical fumbles, effects like "you make an awkward attack and enemy ripostes strongly, you provoke an AoO from your target" or "your sword/shield is caught out of defensive position, -AC on the next attack against you" are reasonably appropriate. But anything that includes "hit/crit self or ally" is right out, and I would refuse to abide by those results, and would call enforcing them (and believing they're reasonable in the first place) a fairly severe DM flaw.
    I personally like paizo's critical hit deck and critical fumble deck. There are some nice cards, divided by damage type on the critical hit (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning and magic) and by attack type on the fumble (melee, ranged, natural and magic attacks). While there is a single fumble who makes you attack an ally in range, most give you some kind of status or penalty. Finally, most stats (like being stunned by a riposte the enemy makes) allow a Fort save DC equal the enemy's original AC.

    I agree with you: There are good tables / decks and bad tables / decks...
    Last edited by DiBastet; 2011-08-31 at 08:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by DiBastet;11759216I
    , however, disagree with the whole point of "making the game more realistic". In my opinion this is fallacy, because it's not a realistic game. In this scenario you make physical combat more realistic but leaves the spell system in place as it is? So the physical combat receives some nerf because of realism and magic doesn't? I only accept this fallacy if the magic system does something like causing CON or WIS drain (magic drains your life, or eats your sanity), at least the two highest levels a caster can use.
    {Scrubbed}

    anyway. thanks for the ideas you have given me, i will take them into consideration.

    if i need to ill probably just ask him for permission to allow me to remake my character to a caster focused druid rather than a combat focused druid.

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    Last edited by averagejoe; 2011-09-05 at 02:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Macab View Post
    i praised people in my last post for not bringing this up
    I don't understand your point. I was arguing against the whole fallacy of "critical fumbles make the game more realistic", not someone's post.

    What are you talking about?
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by DiBastet View Post
    I don't understand your point. I was arguing against the whole fallacy of "critical fumbles make the game more realistic", not someone's post.

    What are you talking about?
    my point is you wasted time by making me read a point that wasn't nessesary to the discussion we were having as it had never been brought up.

    no one was arguing about "critical fumbles make the game more realistic" in the first place as it is a fallacy.

    [sarc]

    i would like those 20 seconds of my life back please

    [/sarc]
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Macab View Post
    you summarized my feelings almost exactly without getting into the whole "its not realistic" fallacy


    Well, that fallacy.


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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    On the side topic that someone somehow brought up about making the game more realistic, on the off chance that the OP's GM brings that up as an argument, you could simply say, "Why are we playing D&D if we want a realistic game? If you want to play a D&D-LIKE game that is realistic, we can do an E6 game of Codex Martialis with no spellcasters allowed. That game focuses on using Fighters, Rogues, and Aristocrats as the main classes anyway."
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2011-08-31 at 08:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by DiBastet View Post
    But don't worry. Here is a ticket for 30 seconds of life. You gain 10 seconds!

    Problem?
    yay!

    10 more seconds of fleeting life!

    thanks

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    I would try to figure out if your problem is more with having a table, or THAT table. That table seems fairly aweful.

    Why can't he make up something based on the situation, atleast?

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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Macab View Post
    my point is you wasted time by making me read a point that wasn't nessesary to the discussion we were having as it had never been brought up.

    no one was arguing about "critical fumbles make the game more realistic" in the first place as it is a fallacy.

    [sarc]

    i would like those 20 seconds of my life back please

    [/sarc]
    You should have stream lined your op to;

    DM does stuff i don't like!

    How do i make him stop?

    GO!
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    "Why are we playing D&D if we want a realistic game? If you want to play a D&D-LIKE game that is realistic, we can do an E6 game of Codex Martialis with no spellcasters allowed. That game focuses on using Fighters, Rogues, and Aristocrats as the main classes anyway."
    Amen. My exact idea. If it is "I want the fumble table", then we need to work the rule to be the best we can. The dm wants. It is his game too. However, if ever it is "it's more realistic" then no. Then it's fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by theflyingkitty View Post
    I would try to figure out if your problem is more with having a table, or THAT table. That table seems fairly aweful.
    Bad tables, good tables... I would point out to buy the decks by paizo. They are cheap and really good fumbles / crits, if he insists on using tables.
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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Crit Fail table; what to do when you dont want it

    Quote Originally Posted by DiBastet View Post


    Well, that fallacy.


    But don't worry. Here is a ticket for 30 seconds of life. You gain 10 seconds!

    Problem?
    Fallacy is a little more complicated than 'thing I disagree with'...


    OT: Give you DM a few 'crit fails' with the flat of your PHB if he doesn't listen?
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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