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Thread: Inner-Party Drama
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2011-09-03, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Inner-Party Drama
Ok I want to get the playgrounds opinion on this. Due to expansion pack backstory and some other issues the party had a major disagreement as to what to do with a plot important item. This got to the point that I (the DM) had step in stop them form basically killing each. This confirms something I have felt for some time that my players have very different play styles and ideals.
So does anyone have any good ideas as to how deal with players of different styles?Actors we are people pretending to be people
Thanks to Kwarkpudding for the amazing Aran Avatar
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2011-09-03, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
If you want to minimize intraparty conflict/drama, one of the best things to do is settle issues before a game ever starts.
Of course, part of it's going to be different based on how much of this conflict is the characters', and how much is the players'.
Decent amounts of IC intraparty conflict can be fun, even cathartic, if such things are expected, or at least exciting and dramatic and totally appropriate for the characters.
Out-of-character conflict, on the other hand, is an awful, awful thing, and can wreck a gaming group if it's allowed to come to a boiling point.Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-09-04 at 12:38 PM.
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2011-09-04, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Too few details. With that, I'd say have them solve it OOC, explaining why they want to do what they each want to do, then decide at that point.
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2011-09-04, 02:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Have each player explain their characters motivations and reason in depth. If any of them say "its what my character would do" inform them that if they cannot come up with a better reason they are no longer welcome at this gaming table. Once everyone understands why everyone else is doing what they are doing you will hopefully be able to figure out what they should do to resolve this.
PS: Its actually Intra-Party ConflictThe Lords of Uncloaked Steel
"But iron - cold iron - is master of them all."
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2011-09-04, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Actors we are people pretending to be people
Thanks to Kwarkpudding for the amazing Aran Avatar
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2011-09-04, 04:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Why take this approach?
Anyway, establish beforehand before every game what the tone will be. Even the classic adventuring party, (LOTR,) had major intra-party conflict issues. Is there a line? Or is the campaign more gritty. Five killers travelling around each with their own motivations, morals, and experiences encountering serious disagreements on how to solve plot points should be expected in a realistic game. Sometimes, PCs get killed for it. Once, I was on the recieving end of that, (PC was killed by the party as a result of a decision I made that nearly split the whole group in two.)
But it was all IC. You know what happened? It advanced the story, added drama, and I rolled up a new character. This time a less morally questionable, extremist one and went with it. I once DMed a game where, at one point, one PC shot another in the leg with a slug shotgun and she literally blew his thigh off. But it was a good game.Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2011-09-04, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
As an expansion on the ideas already presented:
How to Deal With Intra-Party Conflict
Spoiler
(1) Set Expectations Before Anything Else
How much and what kind of conflict do you want in your games? What do your Players expect when they come to the table. You can avoid most (if not all) unpleasantness by simply making sure everyone is on the same page before they even think about characters.
(2) Write the Campaign With That in Mind
I cannot tell you how many times I've played in games where the DM expects everyone to get along, and then writes a world in which half the party should be trying to kill the other half. If you want a low-conflict game but write a high-conflict story, then don't be surprised when people get confused.
(3) Step in Sooner Rather Than Later
If you see a character heading off in an unexpected direction, RP-wise, feel free to stop the game and ask the Player what's going on in his head. This can nudge a the RP back onto the path you desire before anyone gets too set in their ways. In a recent game of mine a Player playing a "Neutral" PC in a Not Evil game took to using the corpses of his enemies as hand puppets. Even though this wasn't disruptive behavior, I saw it as a warning light that one of my Players was confused. So I stopped him mid-puppetry and asked him why he was doing it. Apparently he had misread some of the fluff for his race and thought that his LN race believed that other sentient beings were no more than animals. I corrected him and we moved on with him doing a better job of keeping his naturally Evil tendencies in check.Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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Elflad
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2011-09-04, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
If "its what my character would do" is their only reason, then they aren't really trying and are just trying to be a jerk. While I can conceive of circumstances where there are only a few choices, those are very rare. In most cases characters have many choices of actions and they have chosen to take the choice that leads to the party conflict.
Example; I was playing a GOOD cleric of Pelor in a PBP game with an evil mercenary fighter-type. During the game I had some minor problems with the merc, and then we captured a couple of prisoners (hincky circumstances - we entered their cave, but didn't know it was their home and they attacked us). Party conflict time. The merc just outright stated "I will be killing the prisoners after we interrogate them and I will attack anyone who tries to stop me", in a group with a cleric of Pelor and several other good characters. No discussion, no room for negotiation. So let's look at some (this is by no means a complete list) of his options;
- state "I want to kill them" and try to present his arguments
- keep quite and kill them when the others aren't around (blaming a mystery monster optional)
- start a party conflict
- leave the group
His choice was to start a conflict. Maybe he was new or stupid enough to not realize what he was doing, but I find that hard to believe.
I agree, talking before hand is important. Is PvP allowed? This is the crucial rule that needs to be discussed.Last edited by Murphy80; 2011-09-04 at 11:10 AM.
37. Never play the odds, for chance is always against you.
There are 10 kinds of people, those that understand Binary and those that don't.
There are 3 kinds of mathematicians, those that can count and those that can't.
There are 2 important rules to live by; 1-never tell everything you know
Half the worlds population is below average intelligence.
Dice, we hate those tiny, spiteful plastic bastards with the passion of a thousand blazing suns.
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2011-09-04, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Okay, I'll give you a very similar scenario. My level 11 Barbarian/Fighter was a human sub-race where honor was extremely important and battle valued highly. The campaign took a detour to my homeland. I'll spare the details- we had to kill an evil warlord. We needed to know where he was so myself and two other morally ambigous party members kidnap a member of the village, (turns out he is like 17,) and do a little bit of torture to find out where the Warlord is behind the parties back.
The party leader, (we weren't using alignments... LG Wizard, though.) discovers it and lets the kid go. Feeling guilt at what I had done, I try and make up for my evil deed by offering to duel the kid to the death. This could help the kid regain his lost honor and giving up information and he accepts. The rest of the group goes bat-guano.
Before they can interfere, the first hit knocks the kid out. So I wait for him to wake up so we can continue. The rogue figures this has gone on long enough and we can't wait for hours so she just ganks the kid and tries to move on with the story. Me? I rage.
At this point, I try and kill her, (incidentally my only IC friend in the party,) because of what she did. I never get a swing at her, (I get killed in a terrible way by the wizard,) though I do bring one party member down to the negatives, (good thing I didn't roll too good on my damage.) Could I have done other things? Maybe. Would they be in character? No.
Sometimes, attacking party members because it is what your character would do is valid.Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2011-09-04, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Yeah, but you provided reasons (sense of honor, sense of guilt) for why it was in character for your character, not just "well, it's what my character would do".
OTOH, to me it sounds like Murphy80 wants to punish his players for not being able to articulate their in-character motives well, so I can't really agree with his approach.
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2011-09-04, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
I'm confused. If the first hit rendered the kid unconscious, then he was bleeding to death. That sounds like everything should have been over and done with in six seconds. While it wasn't cool for the rogue to take it upon herself to end the delay, making the party wait just for you wasn't cool either.
Besides, how IC is it to try and kill your only friend?
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2011-09-04, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Other than both being about prisoners and involving party conflict, they don't seem that similar to me. And was that really the only choice you had? I don't know your character or the details of the society, but I find it difficult to believe that it was the only choice you had.
DPS, they weren't my players, I was just a character. And I don't want to punish them. But if they can't articulate a better reason than "It's what my character would do," then that indicates to me that mostly they just want to cause party conflict, not play their character.Last edited by Murphy80; 2011-09-04 at 02:35 PM.
37. Never play the odds, for chance is always against you.
There are 10 kinds of people, those that understand Binary and those that don't.
There are 3 kinds of mathematicians, those that can count and those that can't.
There are 2 important rules to live by; 1-never tell everything you know
Half the worlds population is below average intelligence.
Dice, we hate those tiny, spiteful plastic bastards with the passion of a thousand blazing suns.
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2011-09-04, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
He wasn't negative hit points, just KOed. We used a crit chart.
OOC, I didn't expect them to wait. That is just the rules of the duel. My character could not break it. They could have gone on, waited and then skipped time to when he wakes up, whatever. Also, even though she was my friend we'd only known each other for a couple weeks. When she killed the kid, she not only robbed him of his honorable death but, (since she was my ally and violated the duel,) turned me into a liar. I may have reacted differently had I not been a Barbarian.
I'm just providing an example of where, 'It is what my character would do' actually works. Note: I didn't ruin everyone elses fun since I did it at a time where I was not actually in a position to wipe the rest of the party.
To my character? When she robbed another member of my society of an honorable death and turned me into a liar, I went into a rage. She was the target of my rage. Anything else would not have been in keeping with how I had played the character up until that point.Last edited by SowZ; 2011-09-04 at 02:31 PM.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2011-09-04, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
But it's not just "IWMCWD", you could articulate "she robbed another member of my society of an honorable death and turned me into a liar" which is a clear roleplaying reason, and it seems your game is one where PVP is accepted. So they aren't similar. In the PBP game my example took place in there was NO statement that PvP was to be allowed. On the contrary, I was expecting a "normal" heroic party vs the villians game. Then the GM allows this evil mercenary into an otherwise cooperative group.
37. Never play the odds, for chance is always against you.
There are 10 kinds of people, those that understand Binary and those that don't.
There are 3 kinds of mathematicians, those that can count and those that can't.
There are 2 important rules to live by; 1-never tell everything you know
Half the worlds population is below average intelligence.
Dice, we hate those tiny, spiteful plastic bastards with the passion of a thousand blazing suns.
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2011-09-04, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
I thinking talking it through either OOC or IC can really help. OOC can help to make sure that it isn't personal; if two people are using the game to bicker, there's nothing you can really do as the DM to stop them since it would happen regardless of what's going on. IC can help you articulate why your character wants to do something and find a way to resolve the dispute without aggravating the other players OOC. If your action is controversial (ie, killing a PC, killing an NPC that another player has specifically asked not to kill) try to discuss it and give a reason for it. If you just unilaterally declare that your way goes, you shouldn't really expect others to be all that happy. Your character might be a hotheaded bully but that doesn't mean you have to be that way. You can stay perfectly IC without being rude to your fellow players OOC.
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2011-09-04, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Hmm. Yeah, I can't think of any reasons why the mercenary would fight off the whole party just to kill these prisoners unless his character was A. really, really, stupid B. there is some unknown deep connection to these prisoners. One killed his mother once, something. C. his character was actually bluffing or D. he wanted to be disruptive.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2011-09-04, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Knowing that this will likely be utterly ignored, I believe it's my duty nonetheless to say it: I would advise you to break up your group. I firmly believe that people of different styles (whether they're players or DMs) should not play together. Have the power gamer play with other power gamers, have the drama queen play with other drama queens, have the tactician play with other tacticians and so on.
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2011-09-04, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2011-09-04, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
What you point out doesn't really exist, because the latter will always be different. No two characters will ever act the same way. If you have a party with four NG clerics of Pelor with the exact same background, personality, appearance and mechanics, you'll still have four different characters, each with their own quirks and differences.
However, gamers in general can be said to pursue similar-enough metagame goals that we can put them together in a game and maximise their enjoyment, as they're all aiming for the same thing. A game full of tacticians will have them all having tons of fun, while a tactician in a game of people who are there solely for the roleplaying will have him remain rather bored most of the time.
TL;DR: Playstyle = Gaming style = The way gamers play and the metagame goals they have.
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2011-09-04, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
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2011-09-04, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-09-04, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Due to expansion pack backstory and some other issues the party had a major disagreement as to what to do with a plot important item. This got to the point that I (the DM) had step in stop them form basically killing each. This confirms something I have felt for some time that my players have very different play styles and ideals.
Characters having a major disagreement about a major in game decision does not at all imply different overarching game issues between the players, but the characters and possibly between the DMs style and the players. It seems to me that the players got really into the RP and the characters were really pissed at each other. It is possible the players were, but the OP does not indicate that. The only real problem I see is that the tone of the campaign may not be what the DM was shooting for.Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2011-09-04, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
I think you miss the part where it says "This confirms something I have felt for some time that my players have very different play styles and ideals."
It really doesn't get any more straightforward than that. There's an OOC problem. It's not merely the characters being in disagreement. If it was, the players would've found a way to make it work OOCly and, disagreement or not, the story would've been resolved in a way that satisfied the players (though perhaps not the characters).
Apparently the players aren't able to come to an agreement either, which supports the DM's concerns that this is a problem with an OOC root.
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2011-09-04, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Here's an example that came up in my RL group recently, run by my brother:
We're searching for pieces of an ancient dwarven harp that the dwarven people used to determine their kings by magic, and which is also one of the tokens needed to open the door to the Imperial Throne room, which magically selects the best emperor from whatever candidates are present, selecting those of bloodline first.
Also seeking the pieces is our former employer, an elven mage named Zoldorn. Zoldorn's magic is incredibly powerful, and he initially hired us to seek the pieces out (or rather hired the others and ordered my character, since my character swore himself to Zoldorn's service as a knight), claiming to be of the royal bloodline. It was later revealed that he wasn't, but if he was the only available candidate when he opened the throne room, he'd be made Emperor by default.
Unfortunately, Zoldorn was more than capable of scrying to track our movements, so he knows we've discussed this amongst ourselves. For no clear reason, he placed a draconic sigil on the party member who was sort of the "weak link," having fewer ties and generally being considered secretive and not a team player. The mark allowed Zoldorn to see what the character saw.
Almost as soon as the party figured this out, we started arguing about how best to deal with it. Some advocated maiming the character in question to remove the mark physically, which likely would have killed the character because it was on his neck. Others advocated blindfolding him to prevent him from giving away our location to Zoldorn, but that limited his usefulness in a fight. What was key was that the disagreement remained solely among the characters. Everyone at the table, including the player of the marked character, agreed it had to go. We just weren't sure HOW best to do that. The more superstitious and paranoid members, our barbarian and ranger respectively, advocated removing the mark or leaving the guy behind. The rest of us felt that that wasn't a good idea, and my character felt he owed the other because his character had bought my character pancakes.
The consensus had already been decided by us as players. We just had to consider what our options as 3rd level characters were.
The answer turned out to be to travel up a mountain range, cross a massive river on a bridge that broke and got us separated, meet up in a hallucinogenic fog, find some magic mushrooms and then finally arrive at the castle of a bored storm giant with a magic wishing stone that we earned the right to use by entertaining him with a slapstick routine on his dinner table, and using the wish to dispel any standing spells Zoldorn had at the time, which not only got rid of the mark but would likely set him back at least a few days as he reviewed and replaced his magical defenses and whatever scrys he had in place.
Now our problem is that the giant wants to keep us as his entertainers forever. Fortunately, we came up with a plan that we just have to put into practice. Our witch will use her magic to convince him to eat the magic mushrooms we found, and we'll make our escape while he's trippin'."Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2011-09-04, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Maybe. The DM could be misinterpreting the different playstyles and ideals of the characters anf different playstyles of the players. Right now, I only see evidence that the DM was unsatisfied with how that plot point went down. It could be either one.
Am I the only one who thinks this could be a TOS Star Trek episode if TOS had been a medieval fantasy story?Last edited by SowZ; 2011-09-04 at 06:41 PM.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
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2011-09-04, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
He doesn't sound unsatisfied with how that plot point went down. He sounds unsatisfied because the players were unable to come to an agreement OOCly. He sounds unsatisfied because he's been suspecting that the players want different things from the game and this unsolvable argument was the straw that broke the camel's back for him and proved his suspicions right.
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2011-09-04, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
That sounds very possible, but I see no reason why it isn't just as likely that the inability to come to an agreement OOC was because all of the players were satisfied disagreeing about it IC and that the players wanting different things is actually nothing more than a disagreement in character motivations. In my experience, DMs will sometimes see serious character disagreement and assume something must be going wrong. I am not saying the OP is doing that. I am saying it is possible.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
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2011-09-04, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
That presumes that the DM, rather than saying "Okay, guys, that was some great RPing, now what are you all going to do about the artifact?" he panicked and posted this thread without bothering to see what the players wanted to do OOCly.
It is possible, sure, but I'm willing to give people slightly more credit than that.
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2011-09-04, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama
Nah, I'm not presuming that. I'm saying it is a possiblity and waiting for clarification from the OP. Another possibility is the players didn't want to resolve it OOCly and the DM did, or else the players didn't mind PKing each other for RP reasons and the DM didn't want it to happen. In which case it could be a case of DM style different than the players style as opposed to Players styles are not compatible with each other.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
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2011-09-04, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Inner-Party Drama