Playing Dead... [any]

[TheCountAlucard]

So, a thought occurs to me - like "statues" coming to life and attacking, there are some things that have become such a staple in tabletop gaming that it no longer really surprises someone.

In this case, I'm talking about playing dead. Y'know, a monster either pretends to die during combat to prevent itself from actually dying, or just acts like a corpse to get the jump on PCs before the fight starts. Sometimes, depending on the system, the monster in question actually has an ability to help facilitate this deception.

The question is, does this work?

Speaking from experience, no. "Just in case," the players say, their characters decapitate the body while it's down, or set fire to it, or try to animate it as a zombie. I've never gotten such an example to work, and as such, it makes me wonder why they even bother to continue publishing these things.

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Probably the most aggravating example occured in an Exalted game, in which a high-Compassion Solar martial artist PC defeated the "Shoat of the Mire," a nine-year-old Abyssal girl, who promptly used a "play dead" Charm. He decided to keep attacking until he'd caved in her skull, because the player wanted to "make sure she wouldn't pull any of that ****."

Anyone else got a story to contribute?

[beyond reality]

I actually had it work quite well recently. The players were fighting a sorceress who was a (disguised) undead. She's trapped by two of the party's fighters who greatly outmatch her. The barbarian charges her but while he's rolling his attack and damage he chats with the other PC out of character about whether they should try doing non-lethal damage after this attack to try and capture her.

Well, he rolls 23 damage and she falls down, apparently dead. He's shocked and dismayed. Checks pulse and breathing...nothing.

So it depends a lot. When dealing with undead, abyssals and constructs that have no obvious lifesigns then they're probably more cautious. If it's someone they believe to be alive the trickery works a lot better. It helps that I don't pull this kind of trick too often.

Of course, in that same scene things turned around pretty fast. The players decided they really wanted to capture her alive for questioning so the barbarian tries to force a healing potion down her throat in a desperate attempt to try and save her. Of course, being undead this causes her to rise up screaming in pain and the fight is back on again for the very surprised PCs.

[tyckspoon]

IMO it's pretty unlikely to work in the middle of an actual fight; players are already suspicious of the things they're fighting, and it's not made any better by usually pretty low-level abilities and skills that make it quite easy to determine if something is actually dead. There's also the issue of when to start playing dead; if you do it too soon, players/characters know you're trying to pull something because the enemy should have been tougher than that. If you do it later, the enemy is authentically already almost beaten, and the best they can get out of it is maybe a single surprise hit before one of the characters finishes them off. The best use for playing dead in the middle of a fight would be to get less intelligent pets/minions/summons to leave you alone, as they generally are operating on a 'hit it until it stops moving' level and don't have the brains or self-initiative to doublecheck or be suspicious of why exactly something stopped moving unless one of the PCs directly orders them to.

Setting an ambush as a pre-dead body usually works better, although it's a 1/adventure kind of thing because players will check everything after that 1st time (although if they do it by facechecking- walking up to things and jabbing them with a sword/polearm/whatever- it still pretty much works in that you got somebody into a position that your monsters chose.) If they just Fireball/Turn Undead/put an arrow into every body on general principles, it loses impact.

[starwoof]

I tend to throw a lot of information at my players to intentionally throw them off. Since they only listen to about 20% of what I say I can get the jump on them with playing dead monsters pretty much whenever I want.

[Dimers]

I imagine it'd work more often if combined with simultaneous charm, illusion or shapeshift effects ... like a contingent mass suggestion or something. Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic (Note: frequently NSFW for nudity, including this arc) did something similar a couple months back. Also, creatures whose vital signs the PCs don't know or can't sense anyway -- it's not like they can check the pulse of a shambling mound, right? But a major part of it is going to be DM description and reaction. "He falls down with blood in his mouth and stops moving" will provoke suspicion in some players, whereas "he dies" doesn't. If you rant and rave about the PCs "killing off" what was "SUPPOSED to be a recurring villain, dammit!", it might get them to leave her alone long enough for her to sneak off.

EDIT: Oh, and if your players are the super-bloodthirsty sort who pre-burn everything that will sit still for it, try putting them in an adventure filled with monsters skinchanging with innocent people. Sure you can fire ten flaming arrows into that corpse! Oops, actually that was a little girl from the village, but I'm sure her parents won't mind too much ...

[Sucrose]

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Probably the most aggravating example occured in an Exalted game, in which a high-Compassion Solar martial artist PC defeated the "Shoat of the Mire," a nine-year-old Abyssal girl, who promptly used a "play dead" Charm. He decided to keep attacking until he'd caved in her skull, because the player wanted to "make sure she wouldn't pull any of that ****."

In fairness, if he had already gotten over the hurdle of fighting to kill, Compassion had decidedly less to do with whether to desecrate the corpse than how much he abides by the mores of society, or how suspicious he is as a person.

[Daer]

Playing dead works best when players don't have time to check the 'corpse'.

In other words something else to pull their attention. for example if player has atleast 2 monsters attacking him and he sees other one fall i am pretty suprised if he wastes time on corpse instead taking down the other target first. Though better run away as soon as there is chance before fighting ends.

For ambush it is good to have few real corpses between heroes and faking monster and then atleast few monster attacking from sides or behind the heroes just when they are about to search the corpses.(and hope wizard doesn't just blow bodies up... )

[dsmiles]

Well, my players tend to take a lot of things at face value. The only times they keep attacking past "dead" is when they're dealing with Trolls and Undead. Trolls regenerate until they hit -10 HP (since 0 HP is not "dead" yet), and you can never really be sure with undead (so it's best to just keep attacking it until it's atomized).

[TheCountAlucard]

In fairness, if he had already gotten over the hurdle of fighting to kill...

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In fairness, that wasn't the only factor that had made it aggravating. I'll admit, the far more aggravating factor was that the player was insisting his "Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer Spirit" would preclude the need for him to supress Compassion.

The only times they keep attacking past "dead" is when they're dealing with Trolls and Undead. Trolls regenerate until they hit -10 HP (since 0 HP is not "dead" yet)...

Not quite. Regeneration doesn't quite work like that. They regenerate from non-lethal damage - it's just that to them, "non-lethal damage" translates out to "everything but fire and acid." As such, no amount of clubbing will kill a troll permanently, even if you've reduced him to paste.

[dsmiles]

Not quite. Regeneration doesn't quite work like that. They regenerate from non-lethal damage - it's just that to them, "non-lethal damage" translates out to "everything but fire and acid." As such, no amount of clubbing will kill a troll permanently, even if you've reduced him to paste.

Must be one of those house rules we've been using so long we've forgotten it was a house rule.

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Once you hit 0 HP in non-lethal damage, you start taking lethal damage. -10 HP from lethal damage, and you're dead. Period. No returns, no refunds.

[Mike_G]

If the combat is big enough and there are still threats, then maybe the PCs won't want to waste an action to hand out a coup de grace to everyone they drop.

If the enemy do play dead among the bodies, then the once bitten PCs will start "making sure." This happened in WWII, when "dead" or wounded Japanese attacked approaching Allied infantry. After the first time, Allied soldiers would put an insurance round or two into a Japanese corpse before approaching.

For game play, I might have an enemy try to play dead if they had no other option, but it would be a last resort, and I'd expect it to fail.

[JonRG]

This is from one of the Eberron adventure paths (The Golden Dragon, I think).

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There was a wizard on an airship that the party had gotten kinda chummy with. He was from Karrnath, but a quiet and unobtrusive fellow. He and a Silver Flame Cardinal both turned up dead from poison. I tried Speak with Dead to find out who killed him. It didn't work, so I turned on the cardinal who was obviously responsible. He responded but couldn't help.

Later, we got ambushed by an invisible foe who taunted us in a familiar voice... I managed to peg his general vicinity with a Fireball, and all was quiet. A few minutes later, his charred corpse shimmered into existence. Guess who?

Turns out that the wizard stole a move from Juliet's playbook for... not sure if we ever found out the reason. Guess I could comb the adventure path for it, but... whatevers.

[J.Gellert]

It doesn't help that the "Dying" rules already suggest that a lot of things "killed" are really just unconscious and could recover. My players always deal with fallen foes if there's time, and I'm not one to even track negative HPs for critters.

On the other hand, playing dead mid-fight is terribly hard to pull off, especially when faced with things like Fireball. Even if you managed to act while your skin is sizzling, you'd still probably die by "accident" from the next AoE...

I have had better luck with enemies pretending to have failed saving throws vs Charm...

[supermonkeyjoe]

I'm currently playing with a group who is insanely paranoid about this kind of thing. They were running through the Barrow of the Forgotten King module *WARNING, SPOILERS FOR THIS MODULE MAY FOLLOW*,

The very first statue they encountered (a memorial to those who died) they were convinced had some hidden meaning, so after breaking both the arms off thinking they may be hidden switches they carried on. The first main room contains a couple of zombies pretending to be corpses and some skeletons, they decide (correctly) as soon as they see these corpses that they are going to animate and attack, from this point everything is a candidate for animating so they proceed through this tomb desecrating every corpse and smashing every statue they come across.

Later on this is going to land them in some hot water when a tomb guardian calls them to account for their vandalism and they receive a bill from the townsfolk for their broken memorial

[Steward]

One additional concern for Evil-aligned parties is that their Cleric may use powerful dark magic like 'Deathwatch' all the time, just to make sure.

[Fiery Diamond]

One additional concern for Evil-aligned parties is that their Cleric may use powerful dark magic like 'Deathwatch' all the time, just to make sure.

"Deathwatch" as an evil, dark spell strikes me as incredibly silly, to be honest. It's a good, reasonable way of 1) monitoring the life-and-death-and-close-to-death status of your enemies, which could be used for numerous purposes, including knowing when to start using non-lethal if you wanted to avoid killing them but couldn't afford to pull punches from the start and 2) doing the same for your allies, which can also be used for numerous purposes, including knowing when you ABSOLUTELY NEED TO heal your allies AT ONCE.

[Cespenar]

If your character encounters a lot of instances of "playing dead", then it might make sense for someone to look at every enemy in that particular light, but if something like the OP's post would happen without any precedent, just... ugh.

[Steward]

"Deathwatch" as an evil, dark spell strikes me as incredibly silly, to be honest. It's a good, reasonable way of 1) monitoring the life-and-death-and-close-to-death status of your enemies, which could be used for numerous purposes, including knowing when to start using non-lethal if you wanted to avoid killing them but couldn't afford to pull punches from the start and 2) doing the same for your allies, which can also be used for numerous purposes, including knowing when you ABSOLUTELY NEED TO heal your allies AT ONCE.

So, are you saying that the ends justified the means, no matter how heinous? I mean, I get what you're saying, but the idea of using such dark magic to know how healthy nearby people are is unspeakably twisted and depraved to me.

You know, it's just an incredibly evil and hateful spell, unlike this one or this, or even this one. I mean, sure, those spells seem horrifying but nothing really compares to the unholy ability to just know how close someone is to death, right?

If your character encounters a lot of instances of "playing dead", then it might make sense for someone to look at every enemy in that particular light, but if something like the OP's post would happen without any precedent, just... ugh.

I'm sure there's precedent. Probably metagame precedent, but I think most people wouldn't do that to someone who looks like a small child just for no reason, right?

[Lord Raziere]

Bah, you just aren't going far enough.

play dead, using an illusion, so that when they decapitate the corpse, its actually an illusion that reacts to their actions so that it looks like hey decapitated it.

then? surprise them with revealing that they had just killed illusions

[Sucrose]

Bah, you just aren't going far enough.

play dead, using an illusion, so that when they decapitate the corpse, its actually an illusion that reacts to their actions so that it looks like hey decapitated it.

then? surprise them with revealing that they had just killed illusions

In D&D, at least, that gives an automatic Will save to know that it's an illusion, because trying to decapitate it is very definitely 'interacting with it.'

TheCountAlucard, I'll grant that that part of the story is decidedly more munchkiny.

But yeah; there's a reason that playing dead is an uncommon tactic; when it becomes more common, it very quickly becomes a losing proposition. And, from a metagame standpoint, ever using such tricks really does become a case of the DM saying 'I want you to desecrate the corpses of all enemies for the rest of the game.'

[hamishspence]

"Deathwatch" as an evil, dark spell strikes me as incredibly silly, to be honest. It's a good, reasonable way of 1) monitoring the life-and-death-and-close-to-death status of your enemies, which could be used for numerous purposes, including knowing when to start using non-lethal if you wanted to avoid killing them but couldn't afford to pull punches from the start and 2) doing the same for your allies, which can also be used for numerous purposes, including knowing when you ABSOLUTELY NEED TO heal your allies AT ONCE.

Especially since it's on the "must be good-aligned" healer's spell list.
Simplest to treat its [evil] tag as a mistake- especially since it didn't have it in 3.0.

[Mike_G]

Especially since it's on the "must be good-aligned" healer's spell list.
Simplest to treat its [evil] tag as a mistake- especially since it didn't have it in 3.0.

But when we say that about mindless undead, we get all kinds of insane, non-canonical lectures to justify the Evil alignment, like any animated corpse means a puppy's soul gets tormented for a million years.

Yes, the "evil" tag is stupid, but there's a huge precedent for stupid being RAW.

[Dimers]

Bah, you just aren't going far enough.

play dead, using an illusion, so that when they decapitate the corpse, its actually an illusion that reacts to their actions so that it looks like hey decapitated it.

then? surprise them with revealing that they had just killed illusions

Ooh, ooh, even better -- there are also real enemies in that group who're now playing dead along with all the illusions, and at the same time the illusions fade away, the real enemies get a Mass Invis!

[Cespenar]

I'm sure there's precedent. Probably metagame precedent, but I think most people wouldn't do that to someone who looks like a small child just for no reason, right?

Metagame precedent was what I had said "ugh" at.

[thubby]

as unfortunate as it is to lose the narrative device, i gotta say. if I lived in a world where crap i killed could get up and try and eat me, i would turn everything i killed into into meat paste, then burn it to ashes.

in fact, in RL cultures where they did believe that could happen, they had funeral pyres.
in war it was (and, circumstance demanding, still is) standard practice just to stave off disease.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Though, as people have pointed out, you can always invoke it in situations where there's consequences for desecrating the corpse. See, for example, Dracula, where the heroes were operating far outside of the social mores in that regard.

"Wait, we're going to cut off her head, and stuff it with GARLIC?"

[Steward]

But when we say that about mindless undead, we get all kinds of insane, non-canonical lectures to justify the Evil alignment, like any animated corpse means a puppy's soul gets tormented for a million years.

Yes, the "evil" tag is stupid, but there's a huge precedent for stupid being RAW.

True, but I can sort of see how creating undead might be considered evil. I don't agree but I can see how someone else might see it that way (especially in the context of some religions in game that oppose the use of negative energy at all). But death watch... it's really not that much different from the spell status and it's certainly much less cruel or destructive than something like Horrid Wilting or Symbol of Pain (the latter of whom was practically designed for sadistic torture).

Metagame precedent was what I had said "ugh" at.

Ah, gotcha.

[Morty]

Even if the PCs aren't suspicious and don't but a sword, bullet or whatever they have through each dead enemy just to be sure, playing dead still might still raise some problems if the game takes place in a civilized area, especially in modern settings. In such situations, players will be disinclined to just leave a corpse lying around.

[Mike_G]

True, but I can sort of see how creating undead might be considered evil. I don't agree but I can see how someone else might see it that way (especially in the context of some religions in game that oppose the use of negative energy at all). But death watch... it's really not that much different from the spell status and it's certainly much less cruel or destructive than something like Horrid Wilting or Symbol of Pain (the latter of whom was practically designed for sadistic torture).

I have no problem ignoring the bejeezus out of silly rules, and yes, the [Evil] tag on Deathwatch is a silly rule.

My objection was to the poster who has a huge history of the Alignment system warts and all, who decides that this is a rule we should just turn a blind eye to. This is just what I hate about the whole concept of putting an objective, mechanical rules system to deal with a subjective concept.

[hamishspence]

Sure, I've take part in various alignment debates.

But when a prestige class that Falls if it ever commits an evil act, gets an [Evil] spell on its spell list- and a class that must be Good, also gets that spell, the simplest inference is that somebody in game design has made an error.

There are various ways to solve that error- but of those ways, the simplest is to remove the tag.