Wizards can't have nice things

[Anderlith]

Is anyone else annoyed at the fact that most people let magic users get away with anything because something is "magic" & can do anything that someone wants it to do?

I don't hate wizards. I love them, but I wish their were more rules as to what they can do. Why can't magic be a science? Why can't magic be suedo-predictable? Why can't we have a "real" magic system that can be founded on meta-physics? Historically "magic" was predictable & had a plethora of rules. Also historically, you didn't sacrifice your athletic ability to be able to perform magic, all it took was some book learning. It's like saying every geek is out of shape & pudgy (it's a stereotype but not fact)

So my question is; Why does magic have to be so much of a deus ex machina?

[Shadowknight12]

Because most games want to emulate the magic found in stories, where (I'm sorry to disappoint you) it's actually a way to move the plot forward. That means that magic did whatever the author wanted it to do.

It's not until more recent stories that we've seen the "magic as science" approach. Perhaps games will pick up on this tendency as well, in the future.

[Gamgee]

In my book I'm writing magic most certainly doesn't make you weaker in most cases. One character does, but there's a plot reason why. He's exerting and over extending himself beyond what his mind and body is really capable of doing.

The other mages in the book by contrast are quite physically fit. In particular a Barbarian from the north learns at the Academy and is frightful in battle using magic to enhance his already super human strength. Smashing the ground and causing a visible crater and scattering lesser men is well within his capabilities provided he uses magic.

Magic is limitless in so far as you can think and free your mind. The more you learn and the more you make use of magic and any ideas the more you can do. So someone who studies time will be quite an adept master of it, but your ordinary citizen might be capable of simple things like cleaning things easily, levitation, and getting the plow on a farm to move itself.

This nation of Mages has quite consistent catastrophes to mages losing control of their power. The latest being the lost northern city which was blown away. The notivitates were trying to impress their masters and the experiment got far out of hand leaving a blast behind much like that of a nuclear bomb. A constant storm of radiation and various magic permiates the area, and will for quite some time.

This country of mages is capable of producing special metals out of regular application of magic. Creating super dense metals and then with magical enchantment negating the weight of the blade except when it strikes on impact. Soldiers are supremely trained in mind, body, and spirit for war. Because of the countries large size and small population each and every guard is supremely capable. Being able to blink and vanish around the field of battle cutting a swathe of destruction through enemy soldiers is effortless. Unaided a single soldier can cut down scores of men unless they have some kind of magic.

Politically a country of mages is powerful, their low population and distance from the rest of the world matters little. They're the only country to perfect teleportation. First as warp gates and then next as a personal spell. Angering them is not a good thing because it could mean an elite hitman squad of death in minutes. They can project their power with ease.

Despite all of this they are only equals to the Western Empire which is stupendously vast and always expanding. They also have in the past captured and crucified mages torturing them to insanity and harnessing their power for themselves. While rare it's not unheard of to see one or two crucified insane mages being held up on a cross protecting the soldiers. The country itself looks down upon magic, and unlike the other country it's very rare for them to be capable of it. Those who do are often press ganged into work as healer, protectors, and armorers.

I could go on, but yeh. Just an example.

[Fiery Diamond]

I'm currently playing with a story idea which involves a setting in which magic can be divided into several broad categories:

1) Wizardry: the magic art of spells, rituals, and alchemy. This is magic-as-science, and leads to the existence of magitech, which is primarily concentrated in a few highly advanced cities (read: anachronistic, but slightly futuristic) in an otherwise primarily pseudo-medieval world.

2) Sorcery: the innate, personal magic that some are born with. Some of it is controllable, some of it is not. Some is highly limited, and some is not limited as much. A significant minority of the population has at least some sorcerous power, though wizards are more common (and are still a minority). Sorcerers are generally also physically strong if their magic relates to fighting.

3) Rune Wilding: the literati's magic, essentially. You have to have innate ability, but your capabilities depend on study and mastery of the forms.

[Alleran]

I'm personally fond of the concept that when casting spells, it takes a bit of your "willpower" or "inner strength" to get the spell out there (even if you're a prepared caster, just locking the spell into your mind takes some of your strength). As you cast more and more (or bigger and bigger) spells, you begin to drain your reserves. At which point, your body will start eating itself for the energy to power the magic. Drain away too much, and you not only age prematurely and become emaciated, but you might not have the strength left to keep your own heart beating, lungs working, and so on.

I think it's a fairly common device. I do know that the Shannara series has it (particularly for druid magic), and the Belgariad as well to some extent.

[yilduz]

I'm personally fond of the concept that when casting spells, it takes a bit of your "willpower" or "inner strength" to get the spell out there (even if you're a prepared caster, just locking the spell into your mind takes some of your strength). As you cast more and more (or bigger and bigger) spells, you begin to drain your reserves. At which point, your body will start eating itself for the energy to power the magic. Drain away too much, and you not only age prematurely and become emaciated, but you might not have the strength left to keep your own heart beating, lungs working, and so on.

I think it's a fairly common device. I do know that the Shannara series has it (particularly for druid magic), and the Belgariad as well to some extent.

I was never really too crazy about that. I understand that in some stories it's important so that the wizards aren't overpowered and able to just end the story right there - but I just don't like the aging, draining life part. A system that I liked very much was in BESM d20. Every character (regardless of race/class) had Energy points. If you cast spells (or other certain abilities), you'd spend energy points. If you ran out of energy points, you fell unconscious. So, a similar idea, but more of a temporary issue than sacrificing your long-term health. It allows the magic to be more accessible but still keeps you from going over the top in certain situations.

[Alleran]

I was never really too crazy about that. I understand that in some stories it's important so that the wizards aren't overpowered and able to just end the story right there - but I just don't like the aging, draining life part.

Well, in most stories (such as the Shannara one I mentioned), stopping before you reach the really overkill parts and letting yourself rest and recover would prevent it from ever becoming an overly great issue. Though even then, there remains a price (Allanon went way too far overboard with it once, and even though he was able to replenish much of his strength in time, he was still aged as a result - the Druid Sleep could only do so much).

I think Dresden Files uses it as well, particularly with soulfire. You can augment your magic greatly by using it, but it casts directly from your soul. Which will "heal" over time, but if you hit zero, then you've just killed yourself. And wiped out your soul, leading to cessation of existence rather than an afterlife.

[NichG]

There are other systems where magic is more systematic. To do it with D&D, you'd have to completely redo the system. There are pretty much no solid rules as regards to what a spell of level X, school Y, class Z should and should not be able to do beyond some simple damage scaling rules of thumb (and even those get broken).

E.g.: There's a Lv2 Cleric spell that gives +20 to a skill check (Guidance of the Avatar), which is comparable to a Lv8 Wizard spell. A Lv1 Cleric spell does nearly as well (Divine Insight), as does a Lv1 Bard spell (Improvisation), and of course there's a Lv3 Bard spell that does a +30 on one particular skill (Glibness) and so on.

Maybe the rule is Wizards can't heal? Well, Synostodweomer, Limited Wish, and Wish would like to disagree...

So basically, plan to take all spells out of D&D and redo things from scratch. Once you do that, you could certainly make a systematized magic system, and it'd probably be pretty interesting.

If you just want a fluff explanation of magic, there's nothing stopping you really, but I think it has to have some actual impact on resolution of game to feel like it actually applies. Maybe spells are granted by spirits of the elements a la L5R, in which case you can wheedle and bribe them to exceed the normal bounds of magic, but you can also piss them off and not get a response for awhile. Maybe they're energy beamed from a facility built long ago by a powerful empire of transcended beings, where a computer looks for the appropriate symbols and routes power to those that express them. You could do a lot of interesting stuff.

For example, I'm currently in a campaign where every elemental metal has a unique and specific property, and you can combine them to make machines but it actually has to make sense. So we've got a metal that makes electric currents, a metal that reduces mass, a metal that produces heat, a metal that cools down, a metal that produces gravity, etc, and we can turn them into motors, tasers, bullet-proof armor, whatever if we can design such a thing using the elements we have access to.

[Xefas]

So my question is; Why does magic have to be so much of a deus ex machina?

It's not in most systems. I'm guessing you're talking about D&D? Play another system. Burning Wheel, Sorcerer, and the Dresden Files RPG all have great magic systems, off the top of my head. Maybe check out Mortal Coil, where a significant part of play is defining the rules of magic for your gaming group as you go.

edit: If you're looking for a system where the way magic works and how to use it in clever and interesting ways, working around its various restrictions and oddities, is the main schtick, maybe look at Dictionary of Mu.

[Greyfeld]

Well, in most stories (such as the Shannara one I mentioned), stopping before you reach the really overkill parts and letting yourself rest and recover would prevent it from ever becoming an overly great issue. Though even then, there remains a price (Allanon went way too far overboard with it once, and even though he was able to replenish much of his strength in time, he was still aged as a result - the Druid Sleep could only do so much).

I think Dresden Files uses it as well, particularly with soulfire. You can augment your magic greatly by using it, but it casts directly from your soul. Which will "heal" over time, but if you hit zero, then you've just killed yourself. And wiped out your soul, leading to cessation of existence rather than an afterlife.

There's a book called Feast of Souls, which I thought had a really interesting approach to it. Basically, every time somebody used magic, it would drain a little bit of their life force. You could use as much magic as you wished, but every time you did, it would shorten your life a little bit.

But there are a subset of spellcasters called Magisters that found a way around that limitation. Basically, they use magic until they're on the verge of death, and as they're dying, they reach out and grab hold of a random person's soul and make a connection to it, using that connection to extend their lives. And from that point on, any magic they use takes away from THAT person's life. And they can do this any number of times, resulting in magisters being hundreds or thousands of years old, and ultimately killing hundreds and thousands of innocent random strangers, which the regular populous was unaware of.

[Firechanter]

Shadowrun has a rather formulaic approach to magic, and hermetic magic is actually defined as science. You can design your own spells, but there are certain hard and fast limits to what magic can do. Most importantly:
- Magic cannot manipulate time. No time travel or time stop, for instance.
- No teleportation of any kind. You can move stuff, and maybe move it quickly, but it still has to go from A to B in actual space.
- Magic does not permit seeing into the future.
- Spells are not intelligent. You can only set certain triggers. Spells do not make their own decisions.

It works quite well. In later iterations of the game, there has been a certain tendency towards "Be Mage Or Suck", but not to the extent of D&D, and for a long time before that happened, magic was actually rather balanced.

You'll notice that a plethora of D&D spells violate these rules. You can stop time, teleport to the far side of a world, see into the future, and have a spell find out not only the direction of a given target, but also line out the shortest route, to name a few.

[dsmiles]

I was never really too crazy about that. I understand that in some stories it's important so that the wizards aren't overpowered and able to just end the story right there - but I just don't like the aging, draining life part. A system that I liked very much was in BESM d20. Every character (regardless of race/class) had Energy points. If you cast spells (or other certain abilities), you'd spend energy points. If you ran out of energy points, you fell unconscious. So, a similar idea, but more of a temporary issue than sacrificing your long-term health. It allows the magic to be more accessible but still keeps you from going over the top in certain situations.

I prefer the alternative presented in BESM: Advanced d20 Magic. Non-lethal damage in place of energy points (for non-BESM games).

[The_Snark]

The main issue with D&D magic is that it's drawing on so many sources. Wizards in stories can spy on far-off places through mirrors and crystal balls, so D&D has spells for that. Wizards in stories call forth lighting and fire to lay waste to their enemies. Wizards in stories can transform themselves into wolves, or birds, or purple fire-breathing dragons, and they can turn those who offend them into newts and toads. They can give vague readings and omens of the future. They can imprison your soul in a gem or ensnare your mind with spells. They can conjure ifrits and bind demons, raise the dead from their graves, cross vast distances in a single ensorcelled step.

Of course, it's pretty rare for magicians to do all this within the space of a single story. Magic in stories tends to be either limited in what it can do, or rare and mysterious. But D&D tries to accommodate all the common kinds of magic and quite a few uncommon ones, and has ended up with a very broad sort of magic as a result.

[jseah]

I am/have been writing a magic system for some time now. Given how extensive it has gotten over the last three years, and it being only 50% done, I don't expect it to be usable for a game without some pretty extreme simplifications.

The system starts from a pseudo-physics, where I consider what could be done with individual atom-sized particles of magic that follow certain rules. (some handwaving in scaling upwards is involved)

Teleportation and planar travel is fully explained, there is even some math (4 dimensional vector calculus... ^^) for it. Once again, despite heavy approximations, it is still not usable. Most of the 50% incomplete portions are teleport-related as well as a list of example spells.

A trigger-based code allows spells to act on conditionals, including internal counters and nested triggers that create logic and compute.
There's even an "intelligence" component that you can add to spells, which will process huge quantities of data and act in mildly intelligent ways (pathfinding, storing images, calculating how to bend light to create an image, pattern analysis, etc.)


So yes, I can explain how ANY bit of magic in the setting will work. And as the rules are proscriptive, exceptions aren't supposed to exist, what I am writing is essentially a theory of everything for magic.

Nope, no deus ex machina here. Magic is something you understand, use and prepare to face.

[Dimers]

The main issue with D&D magic is that it's drawing on so many sources. ... Of course, it's pretty rare for magicians to do all this within the space of a single story.

Because most games want to emulate the magic found in stories, where (I'm sorry to disappoint you) it's actually a way to move the plot forward.

I'll give a +1 to both of those. And to take Shadowknight's concept further, I'll note that if all wizards of fiction had access to, say, the whole Spell Compendium list, then the plot would often derail or skip right to the end. It's the only certain combinations of effects that make magic such a perfect tool. Scry-and-die wouldn't work without divination AND teleportation AND heavy offense AND certain personal protections (so that the scryer/teleporter doesn't go *POP* on a trap as soon as they arrive). A caster with one or two moves the plot along, a caster with all of them mugs the plot and leaves it bleeding in an alley.

[Fouredged Sword]

One cannot simply walk into mordor! Thay is why we greater teleport in, drop the ring, greater teleport out before anyone knows. Now fordo, drop the ring in this lead box and head on home now. Good work finding it, now let the adults handle the situation.

[Yora]

Mages are weakly and skinny duds, because players are optimizers and don't waste prescious character points on strength.

[Anderlith]

Yes, I have to say Shadowrun is the best magic system I've seen. My frustration comes from people who think that magic MUST rewrite physics instead of being just another force of nature (i.e. magnets) I understand that in a limited story that your magic users must have limits, but I would like to see it in an RPG, which does not always follow the same plot framework as a normal story.



& please don't misinterpret what I am saying into "Science (Computers) is Magic" that would be a different matter entirely.

[Tyndmyr]

*shrug* I've made wizards with 20 strength.

The Wizard with a greatsword works just fine in D&D.

[DiBastet]

There is nothing new in my opinion, so just to point out what I believe:

But there are a subset of spellcasters called Magisters that found a way around that limitation. Basically, they use magic until they're on the verge of death, and as they're dying, they reach out and grab hold of a random person's soul and make a connection to it, using that connection to extend their lives.

This remind me of that life draining spell from FR that some archmages used to extend their lives.

You'll notice that a plethora of D&D spells violate these rules. You can stop time, teleport to the far side of a world, see into the future, and have a spell find out not only the direction of a given target, but also line out the shortest route, to name a few.

Because of

The main issue with D&D magic is that it's drawing on so many sources. Wizards in stories can spy on far-off places through mirrors and crystal balls, so D&D has spells for that. Wizards in stories call forth lighting and fire to lay waste to their enemies. Wizards in stories can transform themselves into wolves, or birds, or purple fire-breathing dragons, and they can turn those who offend them into newts and toads.

So we try to embrace all the possibilities of most sources, so players can choose from many different options. And with these options come possibilities, so magic has no limit on what it can do.

I understand the op's question, but don't share the concern. It makes no real difference for me for now (not enough to make me rewrite the magic system), but I would surely use a redesigned systematic magic system that somebody else wrote.

[Jayabalard]

Is anyone else annoyed at the fact that most people let magic users get away with anything because something is "magic" & can do anything that someone wants it to do?

Not I.

Why can't magic be a science?

Because at that point, it stops being magical.

Also historically, you didn't sacrifice your athletic ability to be able to perform magic, all it took was some book learning. It's like saying every geek is out of shape & pudgy (it's a stereotype but not fact)

You don't have to sacrifice your athletic ability in D&D either. People just choose to because being specialized makes you more optimal.

[LibraryOgre]

D&D has a very haphazard magic system, mostly based around wargaming-style field weapons. Because of this, you get a lot of deus ex machina based on the severity of the effect, rather than how hard it would be to accomplish what the spell is supposed to be doing.

If you're interested in more "logical" magic systems, I'd stay away from D&D. You might take a look at Ars Magica (the 4th edition is available for free from Atlas Games, though the current edition is 5th), which has a more nuanced magic system that tends to correlate to the difficulty of the act, rather than the severity of the effect.

[The Glyphstone]

You don't have to sacrifice your athletic ability in D&D either. People just choose to because being specialized makes you more optimal.

Strictly, you do unless you're rolling high stats - point buy means you do have to sacrifice some of one to get the other, and it's an uneven trade ratio past 'above average. And even after that, you only have so many points to allocate to stat increases, so you have to choose either improving your physical qualities or your mental qualities each time...there's no working out during the day and studying at night.

[Kurald Galain]

Is anyone else annoyed at the fact that most people let magic users get away with anything because something is "magic" & can do anything that someone wants it to do?

In most good stories, magic can't in fact "do anything that someone wants it to do". In fact, allowing that would be precisely what makes magic into a deus ex machina. Normally, magic has rules, and methods, and limits; you might not be told what exactly they are, but they're nonetheless there.

[EvilDM]

Is anyone else annoyed at the fact that most people let magic users get away with anything because something is "magic" & can do anything that someone wants it to do?

I don't hate wizards. I love them, but I wish their were more rules as to what they can do. Why can't magic be a science? Why can't magic be suedo-predictable? Why can't we have a "real" magic system that can be founded on meta-physics? Historically "magic" was predictable & had a plethora of rules. Also historically, you didn't sacrifice your athletic ability to be able to perform magic, all it took was some book learning. It's like saying every geek is out of shape & pudgy (it's a stereotype but not fact)

So my question is; Why does magic have to be so much of a deus ex machina?

If you are the DM, what's stopping you from doing what you describe? If you have a vision don't allow someone else's vision to block it.

[Mastikator]

Why can't magic be a science?

Because magic is supernatural and science is natural. It's mutually exclusive.

There are plenty of games that feature science.

[LibraryOgre]

Because magic is supernatural and science is natural. It's mutually exclusive.

I do not necessarily agree. I'd point towards Shadowrun, where non-magician magical theorists have made strides in understanding how and why magic works, by observing the rules it follows and accurately predicting future discoveries. While magic doesn't fit into the current conception of the natural world, if it were a real, observable, manipulatable force in the universe, it's conceivable that someone taking a scientific approach to magic (i.e. hypothesis, experiment, conclusion, repeat) could learn quite a bit.

When you get right down to it, that's what D&D-style wizards DO. While most adventuring wizards are on the order of technicians or engineers (i.e. applying concepts that others have already perfected), anyone coming up with new styles of magic (q.v. Wild Mages in the Realms, immediately after the Time of Troubles) is going to wind up having to do a bit of experimentation to get things right, and anyone designing spells, even ones that rely on established theorems, is going to likewise have to experiment.

That's actually part of the reason that technology in D&D worlds tends to be retarded, IMO. They spend thousands of years at a medieval technical level because most of the people who would do physical experiments in the real world do metaphysical (i.e. magical) ones in a magical world.

[Mastikator]

An incandecent lightbulb would seem like magic to a stone age man, even though we know it's not magic.

In D&D Wizards are enginners who focus on The Weave. Actually calling them wizards is a fallacy, they're engineers, and calling spells "magical" too, since it's not, it's just technology.

The game world doesn't have to work like the real world, where only natural things exist and the things that exist are always natural (even if we don't understand them).
In a game world we can have things that is un-understandable. Specifically magic, having "can't be explained" as an unescapable attribute.


On a second point, that I've already touched upon. Why should magic even be technological and scientific? If magic is science, and science is science. Where oh where is the mystery and wonder that I want to sprinkle my game world with? If magic is understood then it can't be mysterious because freaking understand it. If magic is understood then it's not mysterious and wonderous at all!

And why is magitech even preferable to normal technology? Normal technology is cheaper and more efficient than magitech.

[LibraryOgre]

In a game world we can have things that is un-understandable. Specifically magic, having "can't be explained" as an unescapable attribute.

However, it's more difficult to design that, especially if you're shooting for anything like balance. Inexplicable magic is far more likely to turn deus ex machina than ones that follow explicit rules. In Shadowrun, magic cannot teleport... it just doesn't work that way. If someone SEEMS to have teleported in Shadowrun, you've either got something funny going on, or it's not what it seems.

On a second point, that I've already touched upon. Why should magic even be technological and scientific? If magic is science, and science is science. Where oh where is the mystery and wonder that I want to sprinkle my game world with? If magic is understood then it can't be mysterious because freaking understand it. If magic is understood then it's not mysterious and wonderous at all!

The same place scientists get their wonder from today... novelty ("Well, hell, I've never seen that before") or things that are not understood. They may be Newtonian scientists working in Einsteinian space, so to speak... their theorems are correct, but limited, and more complete theorems are yet to be discovered.

And why is magitech even preferable to normal technology? Normal technology is cheaper and more efficient than magitech.

Maybe. Sometimes. If you live in a world where anyone can conceivably learn minor spells and magics (e.g. Earthdawn), then magic may be cheaper and easier. You may also have situations where magic is necessary, and fills a gap technology cannot (e.g. hurting undead). It took humanity a LONG time to get past our technology being primarily simple machines and fire, and there weren't any viable competing technologies. It there was a viable competing technology, then how much longer would be have been stuck with them?

To go back to 3e, consider the magical savant, the Sorcerer. Without training, he can do all sorts of wonderful things, limited only by the energy he has (i.e. spells). Sorcerers are useful, but those without sorcerous ability can't do any of their tricks. But a wizard comes along and figures out how to duplicate the tricks. In Core D&D, that's really what a wizard does... he works out, through following natural laws, what a sorcerer does naturally. If you want a more exotic form of magic (binding, shai'ir's gen, shaman's spirits), that's great, and can be interesting... but the stereotype of the wizard in most adventure games tends towards the mad scientist... meddling with forces normal people don't fully understand to produce effects that, though they seem magical, are really just an extension of natural forces.

[Fhaolan]

Because magic is supernatural and science is natural. It's mutually exclusive.

I've always been curious as to what might count as 'subnatural'.