# Thread: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

1. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
New dysfunction: Feat acquisition and progression as a whole?
no, those work as intended, they just suck

Feats themselves? they are dysfunctional. toughness for instance is the worst feat to have that name

2. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Over on another thread we noticed that the values of Pi, calculated by the area method, for circular spell templates was very wrong. Now there will be some inaccuracy, but as the radius increases then the value should approach 3.14....

5' radius = 4 squares = 100 feet2, so Pi = 4
10' radius =12 squares = 300 feet2, so Pi = 3
20' radius = 44 squares = 1100 feet2, so Pi = 2.75
40' radius = 172 squares = 4300 feet2, so Pi = 2.6875
80' radius = 684 squares = 17100 feet2, so Pi = 2.671875

The value of Pi is too small, and the divergence increases.

If you actually take a pair of compasses and draw a circle on squared paper it is readily apparent that the templates are rounded incorrectly.

WotC template

OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO

44 squares, Pi = 2.75

More accurate template

OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO

52 squares, Pi = 3.25.

3. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Oh come on, WotC gets basic math wrong on a semi-regular basis. You expect them to be capable of simple geometry in any form?

4. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by toapat
Feats themselves? they are dysfunctional. toughness for instance is the worst feat to have that name
I think that's a pretty severe exagerration. Comparing a creature with Toughness to a creature without Toughness, the former is very definitely tougher. 3 HP nearly doubles the survivability of a level 1 wizard, and even a level 1 barbarian is likely to appreciate it, even if there are better options available. If the feat was called Superlative Indestructibility, yeah it'd be pretty awful for it to have such a slim effect. But really, "toughness" describes the entire hit point system; all D&D characters are so "tough" that they can fight until they're one Inflict Minor Wounds away from dropping unconscious, without even slight impairment. "Extra Toughness" would be a better name for this Feat, as that would make it compare to Extra Rage, Extra Turning, Extra Music and the like, though with a less than favorable exchange rate. It's not that 3 HP doesn't help, just that it doesn't help anywhere near enough.

5. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by willpell
*snip*
I wasnt talking about the value at level 1, im talking about how Toughness is worse then Improved, Azure, and Unholy toughnesses, as well as Faerie Mysteries Innitiate.

6. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by toapat
I wasnt talking about the value at level 1, im talking about how Toughness is worse then Improved, Azure, and Unholy toughnesses, as well as Faerie Mysteries Innitiate.
Toughness is not worse than Azure toughness. Azure toughness, with no additional e, gives you three temporary hit points per day; they can't be healed. If you have no healing, the two are interchangeable at level 1 and Azure will improve eventually while normal will not. But how many games will you not be getting healed at least once during your adventuring day? Azure is much worse unless you can get multiple e into it, which for most characters is only possible starting at level 6. And Improved Toughness isn't available until level 6 period. (I don't know Unholy Toughness or Faerie Mysteries Initiate, but at the very least they sound like they force your character down certain conceptual paths.)

7. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by willpell
Toughness is not worse than Azure toughness. Azure toughness, with no additional e, gives you three temporary hit points per day; they can't be healed. If you have no healing, the two are interchangeable at level 1 and Azure will improve eventually while normal will not. But how many games will you not be getting healed at least once during your adventuring day? Azure is much worse unless you can get multiple e into it, which for most characters is only possible starting at level 6. And Improved Toughness isn't available until level 6 period. (I don't know Unholy Toughness or Faerie Mysteries Initiate, but at the very least they sound like they force your character down certain conceptual paths.)
Faerie Mysteries Initiate is a Dragon feat. IIRC, it requires you to have had sex with someone else that has the same feat, and its effect (well, you can choose from a few but only one of them is worth it) is to let you calculate your hitpoint off Int rather than Con.

8. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Wow, that is one useful STI....

9. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by willpell
Wow, that is one useful STI....
its elf only.

and its actually useful, for wizards/grey elves

isnt unholy toughness Undead Cha to HP?

10. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by willpell
Toughness is not worse than Azure toughness. Azure toughness, with no additional e, gives you three temporary hit points per day; they can't be healed. If you have no healing, the two are interchangeable at level 1 and Azure will improve eventually while normal will not. But how many games will you not be getting healed at least once during your adventuring day? Azure is much worse unless you can get multiple e into it, which for most characters is only possible starting at level 6. And Improved Toughness isn't available until level 6 period. (I don't know Unholy Toughness or Faerie Mysteries Initiate, but at the very least they sound like they force your character down certain conceptual paths.)
couple of things:

regardless of opinions, there are a few factual inaccuracies here:

azure toughness gives you 3 hp per essentia invested, not just 3hp. it also gives another point of essentia, which is really quite difficult to get, and boosts your versatility. independent of AT's own function, this essentia point can be put in melds, class features, orhter feats, or whatever, so it offers as much versatility as you want it to.

improved toughness is available at 1 if you have a good fort save. 6 is only true if you straight class or multiclass through multiple poor fort save classes since it requires a base fort of +2.

unholy toughness is not to my knowledge a feat, but a special ability some undead (including dry lich) and many PF monsters have that gives them their cha to hp at each level like con to help with their hp.

farie mysteries initiate can give a number of different effects, but the relevant one for this discussin is that it lets you use your int for bonus hp instead of con. it's from dragon 319

11. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Venger
azure toughness gives you 3 hp per essentia invested, not just 3hp
Yeah, I know that. It's 3 HP when you have only 1 e or when your "maximum e invested in each feat" limit is 1, which as I said is generally the case prior to 6th level.

it also gives another point of essentia, which is really quite difficult to get
Every single [Incarnum] feat gives you 1 e to use with it, and if you only want the e to put into your soulmelds, you can take the Bonus E feat at level 6 to get 2 e. If you're going Incarnum, then yes you'll happily take Azure Toughness over regular even if it's weaker. But if you have no other use for e, the point you get from Azure Toughness isn't doing anything special for you.

improved toughness is available at 1 if you have a good fort save.
Ah, I was misinformed in that case, thanks for the correction. This still means Toughness is a viable (if not very viable) pick for classes with small HD who can't spare many of their Attribute boosts to Constitution. A Wizard/Rogue, for instance, who needs Dexterity and Intelligence and probably some Strength; he'd have very few HP and would be putting himself in danger often enough that he'd have a tough time surviving until level 6. Toughness doesn't help anywhere near as much with that as, say, Improved Initiative...but it helps some.

farie mysteries initiate can give a number of different effects, but the relevant one for this discussin is that it lets you use your int for bonus hp instead of con. it's from dragon 319
I found out today that I actually own at least a few issues of Dragon from the 3E era, which I didn't realize before. I don't think I have that one, but the promise of having rules for magical elf-fairy VD is nothing if not tempting. :smallbigggrin:

12. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by willpell
I found out today that I actually own at least a few issues of Dragon from the 3E era, which I didn't realize before. I don't think I have that one, but the promise of having rules for magical elf-fairy VD is nothing if not tempting. :smallbigggrin:
1: 319 is well into 3.5's run

2: it is elf only

13. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

3E = 3.0 and 3.5 collectively. And being elf-only does not make it any less of an STD (by a flippantly bass-ackward definition of the D there). If anything it's funnier this way.

14. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Its possible to Sunder a worn Headband of Intellect, but doing so will not hurt the wearer.

15. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by nedz
Its possible to Sunder a worn Headband of Intellect, but doing so will not hurt the wearer.
This makes a reasonable degree of sense; among the samurai in feudal Japan, one of the greatest ways to prove your skill as a swordsman was to split your opponent's helmet without splitting his head. You just need to place the stroke just right; it's like trying to stop a train on a particular inch of track - insanely difficult, but not impossible, if you're really that good at calculating exactly how much force to apply and when.

16. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by willpell
This makes a reasonable degree of sense; among the samurai in feudal Japan, one of the greatest ways to prove your skill as a swordsman was to split your opponent's helmet without splitting his head. You just need to place the stroke just right; it's like trying to stop a train on a particular inch of track - insanely difficult, but not impossible, if you're really that good at calculating exactly how much force to apply and when.
Yeah but instead of being insanely difficult, it's not all that difficult.
Further, a helmet is vastly different from a thin strip of cloth or leather tightly hugging one's scalp.

17. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

A large portion of game terminology in and of itself only has meaning as granted by players, not actually within the rules.

for instance, Sword of the Arcane Order and Battle blessing refer to Wizard spells and Paladin spells respectively, but these actually have no definition in game. We take these to mean respectively spells found on the wizard spell list, and spells the paladin has cast.

18. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
Yeah but instead of being insanely difficult, it's not all that difficult.
Further, a helmet is vastly different from a thin strip of cloth or leather tightly hugging one's scalp.
I always thought it was more like a metal circlet, but if it is cloth or leather, then it makes perfect sense to think that you can slip the tip of your sword under it and then cut outward with little trouble.

(It of course makes a bit less sense if you use a bludgeoning weapon....)

19. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by willpell
I always thought it was more like a metal circlet, but if it is cloth or leather, then it makes perfect sense to think that you can slip the tip of your sword under it and then cut outward with little trouble.

(It of course makes a bit less sense if you use a bludgeoning weapon....)
I dunno, I think you're kind of stretching for possibilities here. Getting an object that is hugging a person's scalp off and breaking it in one move without harming them strikes me as a highly delicate operation, considering the last character I played who sundered stuff went around doing stuff like cutting down a heavy metal (I think steel, might've been adamantine) door in a round. (The DM made the oopsie of having the hinges on our side when I asked, so that helped.)

20. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by willpell
I always thought it was more like a metal circlet, but if it is cloth or leather, then it makes perfect sense to think that you can slip the tip of your sword under it and then cut outward with little trouble.
That would be a Disarm roll - PH p158 last paragraph under sunder.

21. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
(The DM made the oopsie of having the hinges on our side when I asked, so that helped.)
that just means the dungeon was OSHA compliant

that actually reminds me of a campaign i was thinking of where the Kobolds and Goblins are unionized, and they have a cantrip res that works on unionized members only, call Clocking out

22. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
Yeah but instead of being insanely difficult, it's not all that difficult.
Further, a helmet is vastly different from a thin strip of cloth or leather tightly hugging one's scalp.
Ironically, it's probably easier to precisely cut a thin strip of cloth than to slice through steel without going too far; you can use less force and more control, and it's softer than the skull rather than harder.

(I make no attempt to justify just how easy it actually is, of course.)

Originally Posted by toapat
that actually reminds me of a campaign i was thinking of where the Kobolds and Goblins are unionized, and they have a cantrip res that works on unionized members only, call Clocking out
A cantrip what? It looks like "resurrection", but that can't be right.

23. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by tuggyne
A cantrip what? It looks like "resurrection", but that can't be right.
a Cantrip spell that is essentially the Druid's combat ressurection from WoW. called Clocking Out. The Goblins/Kobolds then go home to the wife and kids having (painfully) earned a day's income Profession (Punchingbag) check. In the campaign setting, the Goblins and Kobolds are Unionized.

24. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by toapat
a Cantrip spell that is essentially the Druid's combat ressurection from WoW. called Clocking Out. The Goblins/Kobolds then go home to the wife and kids having (painfully) earned a day's income Profession (Punchingbag) check. In the campaign setting, the Goblins and Kobolds are Unionized.
... it really was resurrection. Yikes, that's crazy.

Unions are OP!

25. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by tuggyne
... it really was resurrection. Yikes, that's crazy.

Unions are OP!
there are a number of limiting factors though:

1: The kobold/Goblin must be unionized to be able to be affected by the spell
2: They must have been On the Clock when they died.
3: They are Magically barred from the dungeon till the end of the current adventure. Janitorbolds repreparing the sewers and traps do not count as an adventure.
4: PCs can not become unionized
5: The union is to provide a guild which provides moderately challenging XP and loot for low level adventurers at low cost to the kobold and goblin populouses.
6: Please report to your Dragonwrought guild officer if you have further questions.

26. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by nedz
That would be a Disarm roll - PH p158 last paragraph under sunder.
Damaging a magic item in any way instantly destroys its magic powers, so no cutting the Headband off someone's head is not a disarm. Slipping it over the top of their head without damage, so that you can immediately put it on your head, that's a disarm.

(You could make an argument for phylacteries that the strap holding it in place isn't actually part of the magic item, since the part that sits in front of your forehead is really the important thing, but if the item is actually called a headband, then I assume the strap is part of the item and thus part of making the magic work.)

Originally Posted by toapat
6: Please report to your Dragonwrought guild officer if you have further questions.
Gawd but I love postmodern D&D....

27. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by tuggyne
Ironically, it's probably easier to precisely cut a thin strip of cloth than to slice through steel without going too far; you can use less force and more control, and it's softer than the skull rather than harder.

(I make no attempt to justify just how easy it actually is, of course.)
My point was more that a helmet generally includes an arming-cap of some sort, which provides at least a slight buffer between helmet and head, whereas a headband fits snugly against the wearer's fragile, exposed scalp.

28. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Just swing the sword so that the tip of the blade barely brushes the skin while slicing the band. Of course, that takes a LOT of skill in and of itself…

29. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Ksheep
Just swing the sword so that the tip of the blade barely brushes the skin while slicing the band. Of course, that takes a LOT of skill in and of itself…
The problem is: why would you want to ?
Surely you would want to trash the head band, and then the head which is wearing it. Only you don't.

30. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

I'd rather hit the head without damaging the headband, personally. I could use a Headband of Int, I have a P-Chem exam Monday.

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