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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    DrowGuy

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    Default You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    So let's say that you have a player who is convinced of the idea that Rogue=Thief. A player who's been playing since first edition and firmly believes that if a player is playing a Rogue (in their mind, Thief) that they will do things like pocket gems, pick NPCs pockets, and so on. He's fine with this behavior because "That's what thieves are supposed to do" but he gets up in arms about it whenever anyone playing another class does so.

    How do you manage or deal with a player that is CONVINCED that Class means Job? I've considered making a Rogue that acts and is built for combat with two handed weapons and heavier armor, but he might get mad and say I'm cheating when said orc in a (mithril) breastplate gets sneak attack damage and evades fireballs and can't get flanked and uses wands and scrolls.

    Any advice?

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    So let's say that you have a player who is convinced of the idea that Rogue=Thief. A player who's been playing since first edition and firmly believes that if a player is playing a Rogue (in their mind, Thief) that they will do things like pocket gems, pick NPCs pockets, and so on. He's fine with this behavior because "That's what thieves are supposed to do" but he gets up in arms about it whenever anyone playing another class does so.

    How do you manage or deal with a player that is CONVINCED that Class means Job? I've considered making a Rogue that acts and is built for combat with two handed weapons and heavier armor, but he might get mad and say I'm cheating when said orc in a (mithril) breastplate gets sneak attack damage and evades fireballs and can't get flanked and uses wands and scrolls.

    Any advice?
    Tell him to suck it up?

    Really, I don't know what to tell you beyond telling him that Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 is all about creating Character concepts, and classes are just a way to mechanically represent what kind of tactics used.

    But from what you said, that is unlikely to make him change his mind at all.

    /edit Looking back, telling him to suck it up is far more callous than i intended, and indeed, would likely make the situation worse if you said it to him word for word.
    But, the principle of the statement is the point I was making, unless this guy is the DM of the story, his personal views mean nothing to how you play your character, and therefore, have no value to the object at hand e.g. The Mithral Breastplate wearing THF Orc rogue.
    Last edited by Talentless; 2011-09-15 at 05:33 PM.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Wait...why are you letting another player influence YOUR character? Its not like you are hurting anything. If thats the way you want to play your character, tell him to take his hands off your character.

    Thats between you and your DM. Easiest way? Don't show him your sheet. You don't have to. Call yourself a scout, or a fighter, or make something up. Call yourself a gedonkle, because its a silly word that means nothing. Don't answer his ooc questions, just be respectfully silent.
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    So let's say that you have a player who is convinced of the idea that Rogue=Thief. A player who's been playing since first edition and firmly believes that if a player is playing a Rogue (in their mind, Thief) that they will do things like pocket gems, pick NPCs pockets, and so on. He's fine with this behavior because "That's what thieves are supposed to do" but he gets up in arms about it whenever anyone playing another class does so.

    How do you manage or deal with a player that is CONVINCED that Class means Job? I've considered making a Rogue that acts and is built for combat with two handed weapons and heavier armor, but he might get mad and say I'm cheating when said orc in a (mithril) breastplate gets sneak attack damage and evades fireballs and can't get flanked and uses wands and scrolls.

    Any advice?
    Is he the DM? No? Then don't let him know you care about it at all.

    If he is, ask him to show you where it says you can't Sneak Attack with a Greatsword, or dodge Fireballs when wearing Mithral armor.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    This sounds like a playstyle difference, and as such just tell the player to agree to disagree. He has his way of playing, you have yours. If the player doesn't stop sit him down and talk to him about it till either he agrees or you quit. Out of game problems should never be solved by in game solutions.
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Whadda ya mean, Orcs got levels too?

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    class = tactics + abilities
    Job = what he does as a living
    Tactics + abilities =/= what he does as a living.

    So, say my class was, I dunno, lets make something up that gives me non-sneak attack, non-skirmish precision damage. Say it's tactics involved using extra attacks, to get to-hit penalties, and the precision damage came from rounds where it hit three or more times. Let's call it "Barrage" damage.

    So would it be good at being a backlines archer? yes. Would it be good at tending sheep, or cook? no.

    But could it tend sheep? yes. Could it cook? yes.

    Just tell him, what he could be good at, like picking pockets, is not what he might be good at, like sailing. A Rogue might be a sailor; he could be a street thug; he could be a noble prince wrongly jailed, who's on the run from authorities and has learned to be effective in hiding and stabbing where it hurts, not because he wanted to, but because it was necessary; he could be a vigilante, trying to wipe out evil, taking the Paladin's classic job, rather than the Rogue's, but it would work!

    Just because he uses different tactics to do something, even if his tactics do NOT synergize well with his job, does not mean his tactics define his job. His job may define his tactics, yes, which is why Rogues do so well as pick-pocketing thieves. But the tactics do not define the job. You can apply the same abilities to other jobs.

    Say you were trying to wipe out evil, but didn't have the physical training and divine blessing of a paladin. Say instead, you just had a tendency to RUSH IN, hitting them before they knew you were there, taking them down quickly. In order to take them down whilst they were unawares of you, you'd need sneak attack. You'd need to be able to hide. And you'd need to get rid of any early warning systems, like traps.
    And so the Rogue Class fits perfectly with the Anti-Evil, Get-Rid-Of-All-Evil role, the Vigilante Job.

    Say you were the defender of a temple, on the night shift, and somebody broke in. Say there were a few of you, all night guards. Say your tactics were to wait for them to pass you, unawares that the temple's night guards were behind them, then you hit them from behind, again unawares, and flank them to keep them confused, and keep the scuffle SILENT to keep it from waking the holy clerics and whoever else may serve in the temple during the day, who needs their sleep.
    Perfect job for the Rogue Class to fill, with sneak attack and move silently.

    Go ahead, make a Paladin without any Paladin class levels. Show your player that a Rogue musn't be a thief, that he can be what a Paladin stereotypically is. Show him that the temple's guardians aren't all monks, that a Rogue can serve just as well. SHOW HIM.

    Just make sure the class fits the job, so a rogue wouldn't make a very good court magician. Maybe he'd be a fairly OK street performer with slight of hand, but he can't scry the position of the king's kidnapped heir.
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Wow. Sounds like that player needs more important things to worry about in their life.

    Rogues can be all types. It's a concept, not a job application. Bilbo Baggins is a rogue. So is Zorro, and V from V for Vendetta, and Tom Sawyer, and Han Solo. (Some multiclassing may apply! :) )

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    class = tactics + abilities
    Job = what he does as a living
    Tactics + abilities =/= what he does as a living.

    So, say my class was, I dunno, lets make something up that gives me non-sneak attack, non-skirmish precision damage. Say it's tactics involved using extra attacks, to get to-hit penalties, and the precision damage came from rounds where it hit three or more times. Let's call it "Barrage" damage.

    So would it be good at being a backlines archer? yes. Would it be good at tending sheep, or cook? no.

    But could it tend sheep? yes. Could it cook? yes.

    Just tell him, what he could be good at, like picking pockets, is not what he might be good at, like sailing. A Rogue might be a sailor; he could be a street thug; he could be a noble prince wrongly jailed, who's on the run from authorities and has learned to be effective in hiding and stabbing where it hurts, not because he wanted to, but because it was necessary; he could be a vigilante, trying to wipe out evil, taking the Paladin's classic job, rather than the Rogue's, but it would work!

    Just because he uses different tactics to do something, even if his tactics do NOT synergize well with his job, does not mean his tactics define his job. His job may define his tactics, yes, which is why Rogues do so well as pick-pocketing thieves. But the tactics do not define the job. You can apply the same abilities to other jobs.

    Say you were trying to wipe out evil, but didn't have the physical training and divine blessing of a paladin. Say instead, you just had a tendency to RUSH IN, hitting them before they knew you were there, taking them down quickly. In order to take them down whilst they were unawares of you, you'd need sneak attack. You'd need to be able to hide. And you'd need to get rid of any early warning systems, like traps.
    And so the Rogue Class fits perfectly with the Anti-Evil, Get-Rid-Of-All-Evil role, the Vigilante Job.

    Say you were the defender of a temple, on the night shift, and somebody broke in. Say there were a few of you, all night guards. Say your tactics were to wait for them to pass you, unawares that the temple's night guards were behind them, then you hit them from behind, again unawares, and flank them to keep them confused, and keep the scuffle SILENT to keep it from waking the holy clerics and whoever else may serve in the temple during the day, who needs their sleep.
    Perfect job for the Rogue Class to fill, with sneak attack and move silently.

    Go ahead, make a Paladin without any Paladin class levels. Show your player that a Rogue musn't be a thief, that he can be what a Paladin stereotypically is. Show him that the temple's guardians aren't all monks, that a Rogue can serve just as well. SHOW HIM.

    Just make sure the class fits the job, so a rogue wouldn't make a very good court magician. Maybe he'd be a fairly OK street performer with slight of hand, but he can't scry the position of the king's kidnapped heir.
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Inform him that you would like to play a character, not a stereotype.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talentless View Post
    Tell him to suck it up?
    Tell him to suck it up or read a PHB.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Two of my favorite rogue builds are melee builds, the iconic two-weapon fighter (My version is short sword, but daggers are also good), and a Power Attack build I did as a tiefling with a heavy sickle and a ton of Str.

    Sure, it's not the "ICONIC" rogue, who was called thief and had Backstab rather than Sneak Attack, but your guy needs to realize that rogues can be anything, from the pickpocket to the spy/scout to the dirty fighter, and everything in between.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    He's not wrong (despite a stick figure comic strip, the rulebooks support his attitude*), but if he's the only player who thinks that way, who cares?

    If the rest of the group supports him, the PHB and DMG encourage tweaking classes to match altered concepts (pps. 110 & 174, respectively); with some minor tweaks (maybe swap weapon proficiencies, drop Trapsense for knowledge bonuses), the bulk of Rogue's mechanics can be the pulled for an Orc Ninja-Wizard. That would both maintain the rules-flavor distinction this forum favors and the traditional class=vocation mentality that's more traditional to D&D.
    Last edited by Jude_H; 2011-09-15 at 07:00 PM.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Really? Cause my PHB doesn't say any of that...

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB, pg 49
    Role: The rogue's role in a group can vary dramatically based on her skill selection - from charismatic con artist to cunning burglar to agile combatant - but most rogues share certain aspects. They aren't capable of prolonged melee combat, so they focus on opportunistic sneak attacks or ranged attacks. The rogue's stealth and her trapfinding ability make her one of the best scouts in the game.
    Key word, most. Not all rogues are pickpockets. Many I've seen don't even put any points in Slight of Hand. If you don't put any points in it, you probably shouldn't be doing it. And if you aren't doing it, then you aren't really a pickpocket, are you?
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    If the PHB's definition of a class is a character's "profession or vocation" (21), I have a hard time saying that it's incorrect to call it a representation of a character's job.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Just tell him that all sneak attack is is a working knowledge of the weak points of Anatomy combined with the common sense to go for those weak points in a life or death fight so that you can drop your opponent before he drops you.

    And if he keeps being a pain, introduce him to Multyclassing.

    Rouge 2-3/Sneak attack Variant Fighter x/ Other melee class X.

    Drop the rouge skill points into UMD, have some nice sneak attack extra damage, Evasion, and use a two handed weapon and power attack and other similar feats, and heavy or medium Armor. And it's right there in the class chapter of the PHB, so he can't protest with any legitimacy. Make sure one of the classes is a racial favored class too minimize XP penalty if he want's to be a butt hole about it because he didn't get it exactly his way.
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Just tell him that all sneak attack is is a working knowledge of the weak points of Anatomy combined with the common sense to go for those weak points in a life or death fight so that you can drop your opponent before he drops you.

    And if he keeps being a pain, introduce him to Multyclassing.

    Rouge 2-3/Sneak attack Variant Fighter x/ Other melee class X.

    Drop the rouge skill points into UMD, have some nice sneak attack extra damage, Evasion, and use a two handed weapon and power attack and other similar feats, and heavy or medium Armor. And it's right there in the class chapter of the PHB, so he can't protest with any legitimacy. Make sure one of the classes is a racial favored class too minimize XP penalty if he want's to be a butt hole about it because he didn't get it exactly his way.
    Why do people keep saying that!? It's driving me crazy!

    Also, you misspelled multiclassing.
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    I may be in error, but I believe the appropriate proclamation is "Sneak Attack, bitch" -

    I suggest that you do whatever your character does and make their character prove you're a thief in game.

    Failing that, business as usual.

    Bonus points if you then slip away in the night and rob him blind. And he still can't prove it.
    Last edited by Safety Sword; 2011-09-15 at 08:24 PM.
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    So let's say that you have a player who is convinced of the idea that Rogue=Thief. A player who's been playing since first edition and firmly believes that if a player is playing a Rogue (in their mind, Thief) that they will do things like pocket gems, pick NPCs pockets, and so on. He's fine with this behavior because "That's what thieves are supposed to do" but he gets up in arms about it whenever anyone playing another class does so.
    The player isn't convinced that class means job. The player has Kender Disease and class = job is just an excuse.

    Kender Disease is about attention whoring. You know how five year olds act up when they feel ignored, and scolding them just rewards the behavior? Same with this player. Next time he tries to pickpocket a party member with no legitimate IC reason just move on with the game as if he said nothing. Hopefully he gets the hint.

    Man, someone should write a D&D clone with two classes, Chaotic Stupid Klepto Rogue and Scan & Smite Paladin. Then they can all go off together and save the rest of us some aggravation.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

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    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    class = tactics + abilities
    Job = what he does as a living
    Tactics + abilities =/= what he does as a living.

    So, say my class was, I dunno, lets make something up that gives me non-sneak attack, non-skirmish precision damage. Say it's tactics involved using extra attacks, to get to-hit penalties, and the precision damage came from rounds where it hit three or more times. Let's call it "Barrage" damage.

    So would it be good at being a backlines archer? yes. Would it be good at tending sheep, or cook? no.

    But could it tend sheep? yes. Could it cook? yes.

    Just tell him, what he could be good at, like picking pockets, is not what he might be good at, like sailing. A Rogue might be a sailor; he could be a street thug; he could be a noble prince wrongly jailed, who's on the run from authorities and has learned to be effective in hiding and stabbing where it hurts, not because he wanted to, but because it was necessary; he could be a vigilante, trying to wipe out evil, taking the Paladin's classic job, rather than the Rogue's, but it would work!

    Just because he uses different tactics to do something, even if his tactics do NOT synergize well with his job, does not mean his tactics define his job. His job may define his tactics, yes, which is why Rogues do so well as pick-pocketing thieves. But the tactics do not define the job. You can apply the same abilities to other jobs.

    Say you were trying to wipe out evil, but didn't have the physical training and divine blessing of a paladin. Say instead, you just had a tendency to RUSH IN, hitting them before they knew you were there, taking them down quickly. In order to take them down whilst they were unawares of you, you'd need sneak attack. You'd need to be able to hide. And you'd need to get rid of any early warning systems, like traps.
    And so the Rogue Class fits perfectly with the Anti-Evil, Get-Rid-Of-All-Evil role, the Vigilante Job.

    Say you were the defender of a temple, on the night shift, and somebody broke in. Say there were a few of you, all night guards. Say your tactics were to wait for them to pass you, unawares that the temple's night guards were behind them, then you hit them from behind, again unawares, and flank them to keep them confused, and keep the scuffle SILENT to keep it from waking the holy clerics and whoever else may serve in the temple during the day, who needs their sleep.
    Perfect job for the Rogue Class to fill, with sneak attack and move silently.

    Go ahead, make a Paladin without any Paladin class levels. Show your player that a Rogue musn't be a thief, that he can be what a Paladin stereotypically is. Show him that the temple's guardians aren't all monks, that a Rogue can serve just as well. SHOW HIM.

    Just make sure the class fits the job, so a rogue wouldn't make a very good court magician. Maybe he'd be a fairly OK street performer with slight of hand, but he can't scry the position of the king's kidnapped heir.


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    Quote Originally Posted by faceroll View Post
    Tell him to suck it up or read a PHB.
    Moment he told me I couldn't do something I would have pulled out a players handbook and smashed his skull in with it screaming "FINE I'M A BARBARIAN!"
    Last edited by Calanon; 2011-09-15 at 09:08 PM.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    I have had a player that played a Rogue in a campaign and he was a butcher as his job, he used it to help justify sneak attack damage (knowing the vitals) and helped him to see why Rogues cant sneak attack alot of creatures.

    Just how he liked to flavor his Rogue.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    If i make a shrine dedicated to you, can i become your Cleric? <3
    Seems a little unnecessary. If you really want to, go ahead. It's not like I've got divine ranks, though
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude_H View Post
    If the PHB's definition of a class is a character's "profession or vocation" (21), I have a hard time saying that it's incorrect to call it a representation of a character's job.
    On the other hand, the sentence right after: "It determines what he or she is able to do: combat prowess, magical ability, skills, and more."

    And then in the multiclassing section: "Adding a new class gives the character a broader range of abilities"

    And then in the rogue description: "Rogues share little in common with each other. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness."

    Emphasis mine. Sounds to me like the rogue class is importantly different from "accountant" or "doctor" or some more specific profession. It's a set of abilities that suggests a certain archetype without mandating it.
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Legendairy View Post
    I have had a player that played a Rogue in a campaign and he was a butcher as his job, he used it to help justify sneak attack damage (knowing the vitals) and helped him to see why Rogues cant sneak attack alot of creatures.

    Just how he liked to flavor his Rogue.
    So the butcher was all about flavor? Sounds like a good butcher to me...yum.

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    So the butcher was all about flavor? Sounds like a good butcher to me...yum.
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    Seems a little unnecessary. If you really want to, go ahead. It's not like I've got divine ranks, though
    Working on it ;D

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude_H View Post
    He's not wrong (despite a stick figure comic strip, the rulebooks support his attitude*), but if he's the only player who thinks that way, who cares?
    Funny, from what I recall, the PHB actually took steps to discourage the whole "thieves are expected and supposed to screw over the party in regards to loot" thing. Part of why they renamed the class "Rogue," even.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-09-16 at 04:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
    To Do: Reboot and finish Riptide

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    The Succubus's Avatar

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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Wait...why are you letting another player influence YOUR character? Its not like you are hurting anything. If thats the way you want to play your character, tell him to take his hands off your character.

    Thats between you and your DM. Easiest way? Don't show him your sheet. You don't have to. Call yourself a scout, or a fighter, or make something up. Call yourself a gedonkle, because its a silly word that means nothing. Don't answer his ooc questions, just be respectfully silent.
    Someone stat out a gendokle now, please.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    "I'm not playing a rogue. I'm playing my character, who's best represented mechanically by a subset of the options available to the rogue class. He doesn't think of himself as having a class, he thinks of himself as having certain abilities. If the abilities I choose make sense for the character, what does it matter that there were others available to the class that I didn't choose?"

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: You are not your class (2nd to 3rd nightmare)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    Someone stat out a gendokle now, please.
    That would entirely defeat the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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