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    Default The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    The Twin Blade

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    A twin blade is a ferocious melee warrior who models herself after the tiger. She is able to cut her opponents to ribbons with ease, and dual wields her swords as if they were claws.

    Abilities: Unlike most Two-Weapon Fighting based classes, the twin blade is a Strength-based class. Due to the twin blade's class features, she does not need a high Dexterity score to qualify for her fighting style, so her best interests lies in maximizing her damage with a high Strength score. Constitution and Dexterity are also important.

    Alignment: Any

    Hit Dice: d10

    Class Skills: The twin blade's class skills are Appraise, Balance, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Perform (Weapon Drill), Profession, Spot, Swim, and Tumble

    Skill Points: 4+Int modifier, x4 at 1st level

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Twin Blade Training

    2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Matching Pair, Gale Blade

    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Twin Weapon Focus

    4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Ferocious Strike

    5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Flurry of Swords +1, Swords Dance

    6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Twin Blade Expertise

    7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Twin Weapon Specialization

    8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Greater Twin Weapon Focus

    9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Flurry of Swords +2

    10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Beast Awakening

    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Twin Blade Mastery

    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Greater Twin Weapon Specialization

    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Sparrow Counter

    14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Whirlwind

    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Tri-Strike

    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Twin Blade Perfection

    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Tiger Frenzy

    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bloody Twin Weapon Fighting

    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Two Swords as One

    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Twin Weapon Reaver

    [/table]

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A twin blade is proficient with all melee slashing weapons (including all exotic melee slashing weapons). She is not proficient with any other kind of weapon. A twin blade may not wield a katana as a one-handed weapon unless she has 13 or higher Strength. If a melee weapon deals both slashing damage and another type of damage, such as a dagger, the twin blade still gains proficiency with it. The twin blade is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

    Twin Blade Training (Ex): A twin blade is a master of fighting with two weapons. She gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat, even if she does not qualify for it.

    Matching Pair (Ex): A twin blade, as the name suggests, greatly prefers fighting with two of the same kind of weapon. At 2nd level, she gains the ability to wield a one-handed slashing weapon in her off-hand as if it were a light weapon, taking no additional penalties on her attack rolls for doing so, but only if it is the same type of weapon as the one in her main hand. (So, Matching Pair would allow a twin blade to wield two longswords with no penalty, but if she was wielding a longsword in her main hand, she could not wield a scimitar in her off-hand, as it does not match her main-hand weapon)

    Gale Blade (Ex): As a full-round action, a twin blade may make two attacks at her highest attack bonus, one with each weapon. If both attacks hit, the twin blade may expend a swift action to swing her blades and cut through the air, creating a sonic barrier between her and her opponent. She gains a +4 dodge bonus to AC against all attacks made by that creature for one round, as well as the benefits of the entropic shield spell as an extraordinary ability (The entropic shield ability applies against all ranged attacks, not just the ones from the creature the twin blade struck)

    Twin Weapon Focus (Ex): A twin blade is a master of slicing and dicing with a pair of weapons she has studied, whatever they may be. Starting at 3rd level, a twin blade receives a +2 bonus to all melee attack rolls she makes with her weapons, as long as she is wielding two of the same type of melee slashing weapon. (This bonus stacks with the bonus from the Weapon Focus feat)

    Ferocious Strike (Ex): A twin blade is not a swift and sneaky character like a rogue or a nimble skirmisher like a scout. She fights with pure, unmatched strength. Starting at 4th level, a twin blade adds her full Strength modifier to all melee damage rolls with her off-hand weapon.

    Flurry of Swords (Ex): A twin blade wields her swords like a monk wields his fists. At 5th level, the penalty to a twin blade's melee attack rolls from the Two-Weapon Fighting feat is reduced by 1. It is reduced again at level 9. (So, for a one-handed/light combination, or a one-hand/one-hand combination with Matching Pair, a level 9 twin blade takes no penalty to her attack rolls)

    Swords Dance (Ex): As a swift action, a level 5 twin blade may make a Perform (Weapon Drill) check, DC 20. If she succeeds, she inspires her allies with her skills, much like a bard can inspire courage. All allies within 60 feet of the twin blade who could see and hear her performance receive a +2 morale bonus on their attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +2 for each 5 levels the twin blade has, to a maximum of +8 at 20th level. The bonus lasts until the beginning of the twin blade's next turn and it does not apply to the twin blade herself.

    The twin blade may only make a Swords Dance attempt once every other turn. Whether she succeeds or fails, she must wait a full round before she attempts it again.

    Twin Blade Expertise (Ex): At level 6, a twin blade receives the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat. She need not meet the prerequisites.

    Twin Weapon Specialization (Ex): At level 7, a twin blade receives a +4 bonus to all melee damage rolls when she is wielding a matching pair of melee slashing weapons. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Weapon Specialization.

    Greater Twin Weapon Focus (Ex): At level 8, a twin blade's bonus from Twin Weapon Focus increases to +4.

    Beast Awakening (Ex): A twin blade has access to a special kind of attack that allows her to unleash her fury, similarly to a barbarian's rage. A twin blade may only use this ability once per day per four class levels (2 at level 10 when this ability is gained, up to 5 per day at level 20)

    A twin blade activates her Beast Awakening ability as a free action, but only on her turn. She gains a +4 bonus to her Strength score, as well as a +30' untyped bonus to her land speed, a +1 morale bonus to AC and Reflex saves, and the ability to make an extra attack as part of her full attack action with both weapons, each at her highest attack bonus. (This extra attack ability stacks with all other such abilities, even those based on the haste spell)

    A twin blade gains a special attack while in her Beast Awakening called the Chaotic Strike. Using Chaotic Strike consumes a swift action. When the twin blade uses Chaotic Strike, her swords grow an aura of deadly force that increases her natural reach with them by 15 feet. The blades also deal force damage, ignoring all forms of damage reduction and the miss chance of incorporeal creatures. (the weapons are still treated as slashing weapons for the purpose of satisfying all the twin blade's class features)

    Chaotic Strike lasts for one round, but the twin blade may use it again on her next turn if she so wishes by consuming another swift action. She has no limit on the number of times per awakening she uses Chaotic Strike, however, activating it is very tiring, and deals 1 point of Constitution damage to the twin blade. (If the twin blade is immune to Constitution damage, she may not use Chaotic Strike)

    A twin blade may only use her Beast Awakening once per encounter. A Beast Awakening lasts for one minute, after which the twin blade is fatigued for one hour. A twin blade may not enter Beast Awakening while fatigued or exhausted.

    Twin Blade Mastery (Ex): At level 11, a twin blade receives Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat. She need not meet the prerequisites.

    Greater Twin Blade Specialization (Ex): At level 12, the bonus to the twin blade's weapon damage rolls from Twin Blade Specialization increases to +8.

    Sparrow Counter (Ex): At level 13, a twin blade gains the ability to attack a flying creature that is either directly above her or directly above a square that she threatens. As a full-round action, the twin blade makes a Jump check (DC = target's AC). If she succeeds, she leaps into the air, makes a single attack with each of her weapons at her highest attack bonus, and then lands gracefully. If she hit the flying creature and it has a natural fly speed (ie, its flight is not magical), it must make a Reflex save (DC 10+total damage dealt) or fall, taking falling damage and falling prone in the square directly below it.

    Regardless of whether the twin blade's Jump check is higher than the target's AC, the twin blade cannot jump higher than 50 feet per 10 points of his Jump check (rounded down). So even if the twin blade's Jump check was 25 against the roc's AC of 17, if the roc is higher than 100 ft in the air, the twin blade cannot reach it.

    If the twin blade fails her Jump check, she simply loses her full-round action and accomplishes nothing.

    Whirlwind (Ex): As a standard action, a level 14 twin blade may make a single melee attack at her highest attack bonus against every creature she threatens. Alternatively, as a full-round action, a level 14 twin blade may attack each creature she threatens twice (once with each weapon she wields) at her highest attack bonus.

    Tri-Strike (Ex): A twin blade is a ferocious monster to behold. As a standard action, a level 15 twin blade may make three attacks, one with her main hand, one with her off hand, and one with her main hand. Her second attack takes a -5 penalty, and her third attack takes a -10 penalty.

    Twin Blade Perfection (Ex): A 16th level twin blade gains the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat. She need not meet the prerequisites, including the prerequisite that she must be an epic-level character.

    Tiger Frenzy (Ex): When a 17th level twin blade enters her beast awakening, she receives a +8 bonus to her Strength score, and a +2 morale bonus to her AC and Reflex saving throws for the duration of her beast awakening. These bonuses overlap the bonuses from Beast Awakening, they do not stack with them.

    Bloody Twin Weapon Fighting (Ex): A level 18 twin blade adds 1 1/2 times her Strength modifier to melee damage rolls (instead of 1/2 her Strength modifier) with both her main and off hand weapons, as long as they are matching slashing weapons. This bonus supercedes the bonus from Ferocious Strike.

    Two Swords as One (Ex): Suck it CW Samurai. Whenever a level 19 twin blade confirms a critical hit with a slashing weapon she wields, she cuts her victim's head clean off, as if her weapon had the vorpal weapon enhancement and she had rolled a natural 20. (This ability functions based on the weapon's actual critical threat range, instead of a natural 20)

    Twin Weapon Reaver (Ex): A 20th level twin blade shows no mercy to her enemies. She cuts them without remorse, and carves a new path in the world beyond.

    A level 20 twin blade gains a point of Base Attack Bonus from this class feature as well as her level, making her total BAB if she has no other classes +21/+16/+11/+6/+1. Her Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat adjusts itself accordingly.

    Additionally, any set of matching melee slashing weapons she wields have their critical threat range double and their critical multiplier improve by one step. These bonuses stack with all other such bonuses, including the keen weapon enhancement or the Improved Critical feat.

    However, her weapons use their original threat ranges (modified by the keen enhancement or a related ability if applicable) for her Two Swords as One ability. (For example, a twin blade dual-wielding longswords would threaten a critical on a 17-20 and deal x3 damage, but she would only slice her victim's head off on a natural 19-20)



    Alternate Class Feature: Tiger Striker
    A twin blade who follows the true path of the hunter takes on aspects that make her less of an accurate, ferocious warrior and more of a destructive, leaping beast.

    A Tiger Striker twin blade gains martial maneuver progression like a swordsage. She may select disciplines and stances from the Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, and Setting Sun disciplines. A twin blade may expend a full-round action, concentrating and channeling her energy to recover all of her expended maneuvers.

    This alternate class feature replaces the twin blades Twin Weapon Focus, Twin Weapon Specialization, Beast Awakening, Greater Twin Weapon Focus, Greater Twin Weapon Specialization, Tri-Strike, Tiger Frenzy, and Twin Weapon Reaver class features.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-16 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    So, a hasted Level 20 Twinblade with two +5 katanas, strength 30 and using Beast Awakening attacks at

    +39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19/
    for
    1d10+30 each

    without any further insight, competence or moral bonuses to attack or damage he might get from other items or party buffs. Oh, and he probably kills someone through the vopal-ness of his blades in about 3 out of 4 rounds.
    But he easily kills a Balor (290 hp @ 35 AC) or a Pit Fiend (225 hp @ 40 AC) each round anyway and even has some spare iterative attacks to finish of their lower summons as he goes.

    The only redeeming feature is, that this class has no defensive abilities except for a little +2 moral to AC and Ref save. Still, a character with to much of an offensive/defensive mis-balance is harder for a DM to deal with then a character who is plain overpowered (unless the DM doesn't care, if he kills the character every now and then).


    Other thinks:

    I guess the Beast Awakening bonus primary hand attack does not get duplicated by perfect two-weapon fighting, since you already get a likewise off-hand attack through the ability itself...

    Sparrow Counter: "directly above" means "no empty 5ft cubes between him and the target" or "above, at any height".
    Both seam strange, the first one should not really need a jump and the second one means, that the Blademaster here can jump 100s of feet, if (and only if) there is a low- AC think in the air above him.

    The class gets something on every level - okay, some people think this is important and I can't say this is too bad either ... But except for the Air-attack and the Whirlwind, this is all focused on the one idea of: Use 2 weapons. Well, even the name says so, I'm not sure, that this isn't a bit to narrow of a concept for a whole class.
    Last edited by Maraxus1; 2011-09-17 at 10:48 AM.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maraxus1 View Post
    So, a hasted Level 20 Twinblade with two +5 katanas, strength 30 and using Beast Awakening attacks at

    +39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19/
    for
    1d10+30 each
    No. The actual haste spell does not give you an extra attack with both weapons. So it's actually +39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19 (which is only 4 more attacks than a hasted level 21 fighter with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting)

    without any further insight, competence or moral bonuses to attack or damage he might get from other items or party buffs. Oh, and he probably kills someone through the vopal-ness of his blades in about 3 out of 4 rounds.
    But he easily kills a Balor (290 hp @ 35 AC) or a Pit Fiend (225 hp @ 40 AC) each round anyway and even has some spare iterative attacks to finish of their lower summons as he goes.
    The twin blade has no mobility abilities. She can only full-attack if she is within reach of a creature. So no, she doesn't kill something each round unless she's surrounded, and if she's surrounded, she's dying.

    The only redeeming feature is, that this class has no defensive abilities except for a little +2 moral to AC and Ref save. Still, a character with to much of an offensive/defensive mis-balance is harder for a DM to deal with then a character who is plain overpowered (unless the DM doesn't care, if he kills the character every now and then).
    Er, rangers don't have a single defensive class ability. Rogues only have one (Opportunistic Roll). Two-Weapon Fighting classes generally don't have any defensive abilities. They're "strikers", to borrow a 4.E term.

    Other thinks:

    I guess the Beast Awakening bonus primary hand attack does not get duplicated by perfect two-weapon fighting, since you already get a likewise off-hand attack through the ability itself...
    Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting only gives you extra attacks due to your Base Attack Bonus. Beast Awakening does not influence your Base Attack Bonus.


    Sparrow Counter: "directly above" means "no empty 5ft cubes between him and the target" or "above, at any height".
    Both seam strange, the first one should not really need a jump and the second one means, that the Blademaster here can jump 100s of feet, if (and only if) there is a low- AC think in the air above him.
    Above, at any height. And yes, that's one of those crazy class features that make heroes unique, like swinging harder and taking more damage because you're angry, turning into bears for hours at a time, and instantly shrugging off paralysis because you're that manly.

    The class gets something on every level - okay, some people think this is important and I can't say this is too bad either ... But except for the Air-attack and the Whirlwind, this is all focused on the one idea of: Use 2 weapons. Well, even the name says so, I'm not sure, that this isn't a bit to narrow of a concept for a whole class.
    Yeah. Two-Weapon Fighting is such a poorly designed system that you need 20 full levels to make it actually viable at higher levels. A two-weapon fighter is, in theory, a warrior who shreds his opponents apart with a flurry of fast attacks and yet he has to spend 3 feats to get a weak version of flurry of blows and deal less damage than anyone else. All those weaknesses took a lot of class features to plug up.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Er, rangers don't have a single defensive class ability. Rogues only have one (Opportunistic Roll). Two-Weapon Fighting classes generally don't have any defensive abilities. They're "strikers", to borrow a 4.E term.
    Well, Rangers and rogues are not that "overpowered" in terms of their offensive capabilities, thus you can easily give them moderate challenges.
    This guy however, you have to confront with real monsters in melee, so that the monsters don't die on the first full attack. And those creatures probably kill this guy like they would kill a ranger or rogue in one turn or max twi in return.
    It's not impossible, the DM simply needs to design a monster that has the necessary defense or evasive abilities to avoid full attacks (which might be hard, as I'd combine this with a wizard, the higher of the two delays and then it's dimension door - full attack - kill) without the offensive capabilities to kill a character of this level too fast. But it's hard.


    Perfect 2-weapon fighting: Well, it does not say: "For every attack with your primary weapon due to BAB, you get one with your off-hand."
    It says: "You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus."
    And if the former was supposed, than (given that in the normal game your BAB never exceeds 20 (am I right here?)) it would probably say: "You get a forth attack with your off-hand at BAB -15", wouldn't it?


    Sparrow Counter: Really? If all the other classes had a "summon pink unicorn" ability, would you give it to your class, too? Just kidding, my real problem with this power is, that it is so internally inconsistent. It's basically a rule for writing fantasy fiction but I guess it fits for game design, too: "Magic" needs to have it's own rules too. If you use it to explain whatever you have no explanation for, than this is bad.
    There is an internal Logic in Wild shape and Fighters with high Fortitude saves and whatever. But there is no internal logic when you can't jump over a 20 ft wall but suddenly you are jumping upwards 300 ft, because there is an easy to hit target above you and then the next round you once again jump only (jump check/4) ft high because the target above took a full defense and you rolled bad. It simply makes no sense. You don't create a special feature, that allows your character to do a listen check in order to deal 3d6 fire damage to a target unless the target has the turn undead class feature. - Because it makes no sense.

    Why don't you instead make the ability replace the high jump table turning the linear jumping progression into something exponentially, so that the character's jumping height is not dependent on something that should be irrelevant and still high enough (with sufficient points in jump) to pick enemies out of the sky - unless they are flying really high. And in that case: Tough luck, D&D is no single player game, maybe your teammates have a tool for this situation.
    Last edited by Maraxus1; 2011-09-17 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    I like some of the flavor in this, mostly leaning into the late-game.

    Early game seems to be mostly just feat fixes.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maraxus1 View Post

    Why don't you instead make the ability replace the high jump table turning the linear jumping progression into something exponentially, so that the character's jumping height is not dependent on something that should be irrelevant and still high enough (with sufficient points in jump) to pick enemies out of the sky - unless they are flying really high. And in that case: Tough luck, D&D is no single player game, maybe your teammates have a tool for this situation.
    ...Because I don't want to. Besides, I was intending for Sparrow Counter to be like a martial maneuver, essentially allowing you to charge vertically, but not allowing you to make insane Jump checks. I mean, most Tiger Claw disciplines give you great Jump checks, but only when you're attacking something, so yeah, there is a precedent for "only being able to jump really high when something irrelevant is there"

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    You could always turn it into a type of Abundant Step ability, but only usable vertically (and usable more than a poxy 1/day of course). Slightly dirty fix but it would work on basic premise I think.
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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Ok, good looking fix. It might even be the first one for TWF I've seen that I don't think needs a Sneak attack/skirmish/Iaijutsu Focus/ext type of damage boost.

    Having said that.

    The Vorporal ability you gain late in your career? I'd advise changing that just a bit too a Vorporal like Ability, but it functions on a Crit.

    It's level 19-20, Chain Gating Solars has been online for a couple of levels now, so no, that is not broken.

    I'd also advise considering throwing knowledge Skills and UMD on the class skills list. Give you a bit more out of combat versatility and make some nice toy's options for builds, and of course bring Knowledge devotion online as an option.

    Other then that, not a bad looking class.
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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Ok, good looking fix. It might even be the first one for TWF I've seen that I don't think needs a Sneak attack/skirmish/Iaijutsu Focus/ext type of damage boost.

    Having said that.

    The Vorporal ability you gain late in your career? I'd advise changing that just a bit too a Vorporal like Ability, but it functions on a Crit.

    It's level 19-20, Chain Gating Solars has been online for a couple of levels now, so no, that is not broken.

    I'd also advise considering throwing knowledge Skills and UMD on the class skills list. Give you a bit more out of combat versatility and make some nice toy's options for builds, and of course bring Knowledge devotion online as an option.

    Other then that, not a bad looking class.
    Good suggestion for the vorpal change, and thanks for your praise.

    The skills list you suggested does not fit the fluff of the class (I actually have a particular class in mind based on the character who is pictured above, and yes, a twin blade like her is nimble and strong but not particularly smart or skilled with magical items)

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Soul...any TWF martial character must dip this. Or go 20. This is stinking sweeeeet.

    Now here's the thing... damage. The number of ways to make this ridiculous is uncountable. Dip a few levels of artificer from Pathfinder, and BOOOOOOOOOM. You now can have 2 +20 swords, letting you take all sorts of penalties to add damage (multiplied by 4-10 due to blades), adding Power Attack. To. TWF. (On top of 1d10+30, mind you...), due to the "one handed" ability (I might be wrong there, in which case, sorry). This is in addition to a bunch of damage dealing bonuses to the blade (18-20/x2 + Keen + Two Swords As One means you have... 9-20/x2 crit range. Hrm.)

    On individual things:

    I actually DO like Sparrow Counter, because it solves one of the biiiiig problems of a melee character: flyers. Those mages just like to bombard everyone from the air. This lets Twin Blades stop 'em cold.

    Beast Awakening is interesting, if largely unexplored. Rage+TWF...? Possibilities there are.

    By mid levels (9), you have 0 penalties to your TWF. That's good. So with a 10-level dip, you have a VERY workable little Two-Weapon-Killer. Belkar would be so proud.

    All in all, though? I'd rename it. Something like the Pwn Blade seems more fitting. :small tongue:

    In all seriousness, I like the class, and I'd check it. As a DM, I might push it down a little, but it's still good.
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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    The class looks fine, though seems a little limited in scope. All it really adds to TWF is more numbers, which is always nice, but does not add much more flexibility than a whirling frenzy barbarian with TWF feats.

    That and the 19th level ability seems more like a capstone, and can result in decapitations 30% of the time per attack, and when you have so many attacks that is quite a high chance indeed.

    I'd say add some more options, looking to maybe the Tiger Claw disciple from ToB for some ideas, though that is quite a specific archetype, and yours is more general.
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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbledore lives View Post
    The class looks fine, though seems a little limited in scope. All it really adds to TWF is more numbers, which is always nice, but does not add much more flexibility than a whirling frenzy barbarian with TWF feats.

    That and the 19th level ability seems more like a capstone, and can result in decapitations 30% of the time per attack, and when you have so many attacks that is quite a high chance indeed.

    I'd say add some more options, looking to maybe the Tiger Claw disciple from ToB for some ideas, though that is quite a specific archetype, and yours is more general.
    That was the general aim of the build though. I'm not interested in giving this particular class options other than slash and attack, though Tri-Strike, Sparrow Counter, and Beast Awakening all have their shining moments.

    The Twin Blade was meant to be a Tier 4 build, simply combat-based and good at one thing in particular. (It was largely inspired by the strange number of TWF-based base classes I've been seeing the past couple of days)

    That said, at the end of the day, if a player wanted to use two longswords or two katanas, but didn't want to be a pansy rogue and cried at the CW Samurai, he has the Twin Blade.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-09-18 at 03:17 AM.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    That said, at the end of the day, if a player wanted to use two longswords or two katanas, but didn't want to be a pansy rogue and cried at the CW Samurai, he has the Twin Blade.
    Amen to that, brother! Having said that, it would have been nice to have some of the flashy abilities on the lower levels and just let the scale, but other than that, it's a cool class. As the Red Queen likes to say it,

    OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Is everyone else here just completely off their rocker? This class is so completely broken and overpowered it makes me cringe.

    Guess what, people - classes are supposed to have weaknesses.

    Guess what, people - making a class that is so completely stuffed with abilities and powers that nothing can touch it is *not* a good way to make a class. It's just messing around in God-mode, or with all the cheats turned on. Not only would I never play this class, I would never allow it in any game I ran. *ever*. I wouldn't even bother trying to tone it down, I'd just make a new class entirely.

    It isn't a good idea to create a class that breaks *every* rule: allowing double haste, double keen, stupid-high jump attacks (which actually shows you know nothing about flying creatures, based on how you described what happens when they start to fall), stupid-high bonuses to damage, stupid-high bonuses to attack, and a rage-like ability that simply compounds the class's broken-ness.

    Why don't you just give it divine spellcasting while you're at it. Lvl 9 spells starting at lvl 1. That way he really can be in God mode all the time.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    You should not say it that way. NeoSeraphi has made much more overpowered classes already and if you tell him that he simply says that you have no idea of the tier system and if your DM is an idiot who allows you to use any broken class/PrC combination ever published somewhere then you can build something even stronger already so this is not overpowered.

    So under the premise, that all core classes are bad, unless they are minmaxed with splatbook powers and that the right monster for a group of level X is a monster with a CR of about 1.2 * X, how is the class then? (I mean, 1.2 is not so far of the perfect 1.0, is it?)
    Last edited by Maraxus1; 2011-09-18 at 06:48 AM.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by channingman View Post

    Guess what, people - classes are supposed to have weaknesses.
    This class is built with only one goal I see, and that is two weapon fighting should be fun to play but not taxed. And there is a huge weakness this class has that you failed to notice in that if s/he is not wielding two of the same blade, then it's class features don't work.

    The pansy move here is sunder. Breaking just one sword wreaks all momentum this class has.
    Last edited by SilverSavio; 2011-09-18 at 10:13 AM.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by channingman View Post
    Is everyone else here just completely off their rocker? This class is so completely broken and overpowered it makes me cringe.

    Guess what, people - classes are supposed to have weaknesses.

    Guess what, people - making a class that is so completely stuffed with abilities and powers that nothing can touch it is *not* a good way to make a class. It's just messing around in God-mode, or with all the cheats turned on. Not only would I never play this class, I would never allow it in any game I ran. *ever*. I wouldn't even bother trying to tone it down, I'd just make a new class entirely.

    It isn't a good idea to create a class that breaks *every* rule: allowing double haste, double keen, stupid-high jump attacks (which actually shows you know nothing about flying creatures, based on how you described what happens when they start to fall), stupid-high bonuses to damage, stupid-high bonuses to attack, and a rage-like ability that simply compounds the class's broken-ness.

    Why don't you just give it divine spellcasting while you're at it. Lvl 9 spells starting at lvl 1. That way he really can be in God mode all the time.
    Excuse me, but are you off your rocker? This class is not broken. The class has a viable counter to flying creatures, it can do some pretty good damage right out of the box, it's got some damn good accuracy, because it's unfocussed completely on attacking and if Neo didn't give some way to negate the TWF penalties, it would degrade once more into, " That thing that people want to use, but is so terrible it can hardly be used. "

    Also: The rage ability isn't broken by any stretch of the imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maraxus1 View Post
    You should not say it that way. NeoSeraphi has made much more overpowered classes already and if you tell him that he simply says that you have no idea of the tier system and if your DM is an idiot who allows you to use any broken class/PrC combination ever published somewhere then you can build something even stronger already so this is not overpowered.

    So under the premise, that all core classes are bad, unless they are minmaxed with splatbook powers and that the right monster for a group of level X is a monster with a CR of about 1.2 * X, how is the class then? (I mean, 1.2 is not so far of the perfect 1.0, is it?)
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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by channingman View Post
    It isn't a good idea to create a class that breaks *every* rule: allowing double haste, double keen, stupid-high jump attacks (which actually shows you know nothing about flying creatures, based on how you described what happens when they start to fall), stupid-high bonuses to damage, stupid-high bonuses to attack, and a rage-like ability that simply compounds the class's broken-ness.
    What do you mean? A creature with a natural fly speed that is reduced to 0 starts to fall. They take falling damage and land prone in a square. What's wrong with that?

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    What do you mean? A creature with a natural fly speed that is reduced to 0 starts to fall. They take falling damage and land prone in a square. What's wrong with that?
    Nothing, but its a teleport spell with featherfall after, otherwise for a 100' sparrow counter you're going to be going about 80MPH up and 55MPH down. Effect: DC 30-40+ Reflex battlefield control +XD6(uncapped), negation of flying, and at the end of turn they are in the same square as you, prone, under your feet. Then, have 2 weapon sets with return crystals in them (very affordable), this means you can swap weapon sets as a free action. As soon as you land drop the swords, return the whips, now you're a tripper and guess who's already prone in your square ;]

    And let's not even mention environmental hazards, especially lava. I don't even own that many d20's.
    Last edited by Hanuman; 2011-09-18 at 01:23 PM.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuman View Post
    Nothing, but its a teleport spell with featherfall after, otherwise for a 100' sparrow counter you're going to be going about 80MPH up and 55MPH down. Effect: DC 30-40+ Reflex battlefield control +XD6(uncapped), negation of flying, and at the end of turn they are in the same square as you, prone, under your feet. Then, have 2 weapon sets with return crystals in them (very affordable), this means you can swap weapon sets as a free action. As soon as you land drop the swords, return the whips, now you're a tripper and guess who's already prone in your square ;]

    And let's not even mention environmental hazards, especially lava. I don't even own that many d20's.
    Well, yeah, I get all that, but he said "Which shows you know nothing about flying creatures", implying that my grounding effect was wrong somehow.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    A strong archetype, and one that many players would be interested in. Over 20 levels, you're gaining +9 to hit, +14 damage, and three extra attacks per round (although two of those are at a very low bonus). You also get +2 AC, +2 Reflex save which is a little help in overcoming your two poor saves limited armor proficiency, and lack of mobility-enhancing powers.

    Given the goals you set out for the class, I'd say you've succeeded in creating what you wanted to create. However, you might be more even satisfied with it during gameplay if you altered or added a couple powers.

    • It would be nice to see some more abilities like Sparrow Counter that let you extend your reach or strike hard-to-reach opponents. Extending that even further, a few abilities that emphasize the twin blade's natural athleticism would let you play around with tactical use of terrain and environment, which is always fun.
    • I like how you shored up the weak points in several otherwise-lame TWF feats. It would be nice to see something similar for feats like the Two-Weapon Defense line, Dual Strike, Double Hit, and Two-Weapon Rend (although as far as Rend goes, you really don't need more hp damage - how about something like 1 point of Con damage per strike whenever you hit the opponent with both both weapons in the same round or something).
    • I like the 4 skill points per level - definitely a good idea. This is mostly just for flavor, but it would neat to have Martial Lore and Perform (weapon drill) on the skill list, so the twin blade can show off her skill and speak knowledgeably about advanced combat techniques and battle stuff.
    • While Whirlwind is nice, I'd be even cooler if you could attack once with each weapon (this kind of expands on what the Dual Strike and Whirlwind Attack feats were trying to do).
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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Given the goals you set out for the class, I'd say you've succeeded in creating what you wanted to create. However, you might be more even satisfied with it during gameplay if you altered or added a couple powers.

    • It would be nice to see some more abilities like Sparrow Counter that let you extend your reach or strike hard-to-reach opponents. Extending that even further, a few abilities that emphasize the twin blade's natural athleticism would let you play around with tactical use of terrain and environment, which is always fun.
    • I like how you shored up the weak points in several otherwise-lame TWF feats. It would be nice to see something similar for feats like the Two-Weapon Defense line, Dual Strike, Double Hit, and Two-Weapon Rend (although as far as Rend goes, you really don't need more hp damage - how about something like 1 point of Con damage per strike whenever you hit the opponent with both both weapons in the same round or something).
    • I like the 4 skill points per level - definitely a good idea. This is mostly just for flavor, but it would neat to have Martial Lore and Perform (weapon drill) on the skill list, so the twin blade can show off her skill and speak knowledgeably about advanced combat techniques and battle stuff.
    • While Whirlwind is nice, I'd be even cooler if you could attack once with each weapon (this kind of expands on what the Dual Strike and Whirlwind Attack feats were trying to do).
    +1 on all the suggestions, especially the first one. Like maybe an array of counters of sorts, dealing with otherwise difficult-to-hit positioned targets.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    It looks pretty solid. The only thing I could see that would really improve the class (besides Jirikus suggestions) would be some kind of option to move + full attack.
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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Two-Weapon Defense
    Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +1
    Benefit: While you are wielding two weapons and wearing light or no armor, you gain a shield bonus to your AC equal to your Base Attack Bonus, to a maximum of +5
    Normal: You suck at dodging while wearing light or no armor


    Improved Two-Weapon Defense
    Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Base Attack Bonus +6
    Benefit: While you are wielding two weapons and wearing light or no armor, you gain a shield bonus to your AC equal to your Base Attack Bonus, to a maximum of +10
    Normal: A character with the Two-Weapon Defense feat can only receive up to a +5 shield bonus to her AC


    Greater Two-Weapon Defense
    Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Defense, Base Attack Bonus +11
    Benefit: While you are wielding two weapons and wearing light or no armor, you gain a shield bonus to your AC equal to your Base Attack Bonus, to a maximum of +15
    Normal: A character with the Improved Two-Weapon Defense feat can only receive up to a +10 shield bonus to her AC


    Two-Weapon Rend
    Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +6
    Benefit: When you hit a character with both your main hand and your off hand weapon in the same attack action, you can unbalance your opponent and use that to your advantage. You may either make a Bull Rush attempt or a Trip attempt as a free action that does not require a touch attack or provoke an attack of opportunity. If you fail your Trip attempt, your opponent does not get to trip you. You receive a bonus on either check equal to the total enhancement bonus of both weapons you wield.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    It looks pretty solid. The only thing I could see that would really improve the class (besides Jirikus suggestions) would be some kind of option to move + full attack.
    Tri-Strike already grants you the ability to attack 3 times as a standard action. That's almost a full attack for a normal character right there.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post

    • It would be nice to see some more abilities like Sparrow Counter that let you extend your reach or strike hard-to-reach opponents. Extending that even further, a few abilities that emphasize the twin blade's natural athleticism would let you play around with tactical use of terrain and environment, which is always fun.
    • I like how you shored up the weak points in several otherwise-lame TWF feats. It would be nice to see something similar for feats like the Two-Weapon Defense line, Dual Strike, Double Hit, and Two-Weapon Rend (although as far as Rend goes, you really don't need more hp damage - how about something like 1 point of Con damage per strike whenever you hit the opponent with both both weapons in the same round or something).
    • I like the 4 skill points per level - definitely a good idea. This is mostly just for flavor, but it would neat to have Martial Lore and Perform (weapon drill) on the skill list, so the twin blade can show off her skill and speak knowledgeably about advanced combat techniques and battle stuff.
    • While Whirlwind is nice, I'd be even cooler if you could attack once with each weapon (this kind of expands on what the Dual Strike and Whirlwind Attack feats were trying to do).
    • Added Chaotic Strike, which increases a twin blade's reach with her weapons by 15 feet while she is in Beast Awakening and also turns her weapons into objects of force that ignore all damage reduction (This is both helpful gamewise and definitely fits the flavor of Alkaid's Beast Awakening)
    • I don't know what books Double Hit and Dual Strike are in, but I posted some new versions of the TWD line, and a new Two Weapon Rend
    • Sure, why not. Added to the class
    • Added a full-attack option for Whirlwind to the class feature that does what you suggested, while keeping the standard action Whirlwind the same.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-09-18 at 03:02 PM.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Tri-Strike already grants you the ability to attack 3 times as a standard action. That's almost a full attack for a normal character right there.
    Yes, I realize that, but the main strength of this class is still its massive number of attacks, so it's quite a hit to not be able to take them all.
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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Yes, I realize that, but the main strength of this class is still its massive number of attacks, so it's quite a hit to not be able to take them all.
    Yes, but that's a problem that all melee face, and taking it away makes it really hard for the DM to plan encounters appropriately. I don't agree with Pounce being an option for every striker. At all. A limited version of it is more than enough, in my opinion.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Well, yeah, I get all that, but he said "Which shows you know nothing about flying creatures", implying that my grounding effect was wrong somehow.
    He was talking balance, which you have gotten pretty well.

    Maybe anger due to playing a year long campaign with his TWF fighter, all those misses and damage reductions probably caused PTSD

    Anyway, I like what you've done here, if you ever feel like contributing some of your input into the flowdancer feel free-- it's got a lot of TWF in it, just needs to be formatted better to make that viable.

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    Default Re: The Twin Blade (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Absolutely no Barbarian, Bard Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue or Sorcerer could compete with this class. A wizard would *only* have a chance if he knew the fight was going to happen and prepared accordingly. And he'd likely get his butt kicked anyway. So no, I don't think he's balanced.

    As to falling - a creature only falls 300 feet in the first round, 500 feet in each round after that. Each round that it falls without hitting the ground, it gets another reflex save to resume flying. These are the flying rules that you apparently don't know.

    Two-weapon fighting gets penalties becuase it's difficult to do, and because it gives a great benefit. A TWF fighter with his feats designed for TWF is incredible at TWF. A Ranger with the TWF combat style who focuses his character feats into TWF is also amazing at TWF. Neither of them can come *close* to fighting this guy.
    Last edited by channingman; 2011-09-18 at 08:21 PM.

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