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  2. - Top - End - #152
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Real quick ideas:

    White Mage: can heal 1d6+CL with a touch. At level 4, can remove fear.
    Black Mage: ranged touch attack that does 1d6+CL negative energy damage. At level 4, can sicken for one round.
    Red Mage: RTA that does 1d6+CL fire or lightning damage (chosen at 1st level, permanent.) At level 4, does 2d6+CL.
    Green Mage: RTA that does 1d6+CL acid. At level 4, can entangle for one round.
    Blue Mage: RTA that does 1d4+CL force damage. At level 4, can bullrush or trip with the attack, uses casting stat for modifier.

    Still, I think that the mages are plenty powerful enough as it is, and so would hesitate to include these as standard.

  3. - Top - End - #153
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    I think between this, encounter spells, and fewer spells per day, they'll be perfect.

    Not sure if I like the White Mage having at-will, unlimited healing. I'd have the White Mage use an RTA that deals non-lethal damage. Versus undead/evil subtype monsters it would deal lethal damage however that ignores resistance and immunity.

    Also, maybe have the red RTA do both fire and lightning damage, since these individually tend to be very commonly resisted vis a vis force and acid. Besides, plasma/red lightning rays are awesome.

    Also keep in mind that the Red Mage can technically use his Combat Panache with his RTA; maybe it should only work for his touch attack?

    Red Mage archetype: Stormbringer

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    Stormbringer

    Bonus Spells:
    1: Lesser Orb of Electricity (SpC), Thunderhead (SpC)
    2: Electric Loop (SpC), Fly, Swift (SpC)
    3: Call Lightning, Lightning Bolt

    Lesser Archetype Power (Superconductive Lightning): A stormbringer ignores the first 10 points of energy resistance when using electrical spells or electrical SLAs - this also applies to any electrical damage on the stormbringer's weapon, if applied via one of his spells.
    Moderate Archetype Power (Bounding Bolts): Whenever the stormbringer deals electrical damage to a creature targeted by an electrical spell or electrical SLA, the stormbringer can deal half that damage to another creature or object within 15 feet that's not a target of that spell or SLA.
    Greater Archetype Power (Flashshock): Once per encounter, a stormbringer may choose to use one of his air or electrical spells or air or electrical SLAs he can use at-will or per encounter as a swift or immediate action. This use does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and cannot be counterspelled. Evasion and Improved Evasion cannot be used against a spell or SLA cast in this way.
    Capstone SLA: Arc of Lightning (SpC)



    Blue Mage archetype: Illusionist

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    Illusionist

    Bonus Spells:
    1: Net of Shadows (SpC), Disguise Self
    2: Phantasmal Assailants (SpC), Wall of Gloom (SpC)
    3: Shadow Binding (SpC), Phantom Guardians (SpC)

    Lesser Archetype Power (Beguiling Deceit): Your illusion spells and illusion SLAs gain a +1 bonus to their save DCs. This bonus increases to +2 against flatfooted creatures and creatures unaware of the illusionist's presence.
    Moderate Archetype Power (Enduring Illusion): Creatures that would see through an illusion spell or illusion SLA cast by the illusionist due to an ability, effect, spell or property must make a caster level (if the effect of a spell or SLA like True Seeing) or HD check against a DC equal to 15 + the illusionist's spell level. On a failure, the creature does not see through that spell or SLA's illusions, and that creature cannot make another check in this way against that illusion spell or SLA for its duration.
    Greater Archetype Power (Nightmares Made Real): Once per encounter, an illusion spell or illusion SLA cast by the illusionist ignores immunity to fear and mind affecting spells and all saving throws it features against Will are instead made against Fortitude. If that spell or SLA features a save to disbelieve, the save to disbelieve is removed if that spell or SLA has more than one save. Otherwise, the save to disbelieve for that spell or SLA has its DC increased by +4.
    Capstone SLA: Mirage Arcana or Shadow Conjuration

  4. - Top - End - #154
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Those are most excellent archetypes, Surrealistik. The illusionist in particular was very, very close to my planned archetype for the Blue Mage (I had been calling it "Weaver" but same basic idea).

  5. - Top - End - #155
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Black Mage archetype: Blightmage

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    Blightmage



    Bonus Spells:
    1: Spirit Worm (SpC), Deathwatch (SpC)
    2: Ghoul Touch, Blindness/Deafness
    3: Plague Carrier (SpC), Infestation of Maggots (SpC)

    Lesser Archetype Power (Adaptive Blight): Whenever a creature succeeds on or fails a saving throw against one of your negative energy, poison or disease spells or SLAs, increase the DC for your negative energy, poison or disease spells and SLAs against that creature by +1 for the next 24 hours.
    Moderate Archetype Power (Tenacious Affliction): Whenever a spell or effect would end the effects of one of your negative energy, poison or disease spells or SLAs with a duration other than instantaneous, the user of that spell or effect must succeed on a caster level (if a spell) or HD check with a DC equal to 15 + your caster level. On a failure, each creature other than you and your allies within 30' of those effects becomes subject to the that spell or SLA if a legal target.
    Greater Archetype Power (Irresistable Pestilence): Creatures with negative energy, poison, ability damage, and/or disease immunity must succeed on an HD check with a DC equal to 15 + your caster level against your spells and SLAs when targeted with one. On a failure, that spell or SLA affects the creature as normal, ignoring these immunities for its duration.
    Capstone SLA: Inflict Critical Wounds or Poison (SpC)

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Just gotta say, A+. I really enjoy your classes and can't wait for you to finish races and skills (maybe some feats too?). Hopefully I can find a game to play one of these in.

    Also--amazing choice of pictures. Especially the Praetorian. (chronomaster is cool too though)

  7. - Top - End - #157
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    All right. Skyrim hiatus is over. Back to work soon, folks - those of you who have been waiting for those new archetypes, I'll have them up within the next couple of days, as well as the skeletons of psionic classes.

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Hm... perhaps the last post can be for other people's contributions? Would be easier for people looking for more customizations than browsing through the thread for new archetypes/classes. Also considering making some E6 classes as well...
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    Hm... perhaps the last post can be for other people's contributions? Would be easier for people looking for more customizations than browsing through the thread for new archetypes/classes. Also considering making some E6 classes as well...
    Not a bad idea. Of course, I'm very, very close to running out of space on the first three posts, so psionic classes are going to bleed over into the fourth.

    I may have to make this the class thread only, and move races/feats/et cetera to a new superthread.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    The Warlock


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    HD: d6
    Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)
    Skill Points: 2 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Invocations

    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Invocations, Archetype, Eldritch Blast|1

    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Lesser Archetype Power|2

    3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3|Damage Reduction|2

    4th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Moderate Archetype Power|3

    5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Fiendish Resilience|3

    6th|+4|+5|+2|+5|Greater Archetype Power, Hellfire Blast|4[/table]

    Class Abilities

    Proficiencies: A Warlock is proficient with light armor, as well as simple weapons. He does not suffer from arcane failure while in light armor, though he suffers normally from all other kinds of armor and shields.

    Eldritch Blast (Sp): At first level, a Warlock gains access to his most basic power: his Eldritch Blast. An Eldritch Blast is a ray with a range of 60ft. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target, allowing no saving throw. An Eldritch blast deals 1d6 damage at first level, which increases to 2d6 at third level and 3d6 at 5th level. This is the equivalent of a first level spell. An Eldritch Blast is subject to spell resistance. An Eldritch Blast deals half damage to objects.

    Invocations: A Warlock has a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and other abilities known as invocations, which allow him to focus the wild energy that suffuses his soul. A Warlock can use any invocation he knows at will.

    A Warlock's invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. To avoid provoking such attacks, a Warlock can use an invocation defensively by making a successful Concentration check. An invocation can be disrupted, just as a spell can be ruined during casting. If a Warlock is hit by an attack while invoking, he is entitled to a Concentration check to successfully use the invocation, just as a spellcaster would be. His invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an invocation's description specifically states otherwise. A Warlock's caster level with his invocations is equal to his class level. He can dismiss any invocation as a standard action, just as a wizard can dismiss a spell.

    If an invocation allows a saving throw, its DC is 10 + the equivalent spell level + the Warlock's Cha modifier. Since spell-like abilities are not spells, a Warlock cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat or from other feats that let him convert or spend an arcane spell slot to produce some other effect. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (MM 303), as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities.

    A 1st-level Warlock begins with knowledge of one least invocation, gaining access to an additional least invocation at second and fourth level. At 6th level, a Warlock gains access to a Lesser invocation. At any level when a Warlock learns a new invocation, he can also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same or lower grade.

    Unlike other spell-like abilities, invocations are subject to arcane spell failure chance.

    Archetype: At 1st level, a Warlock chooses an archetype from the following list, each of which conveys a certain set of advantages and abilities. Once chosen, this cannot be changed or reversed. Each archetype has a Lesser power, a Moderate power, a Greater power, and a Capstone SLA associated with it, which the Warlock receives at the levels noted above. Each archetype also adds one extra invocation to the Warlock's invocations known at first level.

    Lesser Archetype Power: At 2nd level, a Warlock gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

    Damage Reduction: At 3rd level, fortified by the supernatural power flowing through his body, a warlock gains resiliance to mundane attacks. He gains damage reduction 1/cold iron. This improves to damage reduction 2/cold iron at 6th level.

    Moderate Archetype Power: At 4th level, a Warlock gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

    Fiendish Resiliance: At 5th level, a Warlock gains activate Fiendish Resiliance. While in this state, the Warlock gains fast healing one, and any damage reduction the Warlock has increases by 1 of whatever type it already was. The Warlock can only remain in this state for a total of two minutes/day. They may activate or deactivate this power as a swift action.

    Greater Archetype Power: At 6th level, a Warlock gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

    Hellfire Blast: At 6th level, whenever a Warlock uses his eldritch blast ability, he can change his eldritch blast into a hellfire blast. A hellfire blast deals his normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage. If his blast hits multiple targets (for example, the eldritch chain blast shape invocation), each target takes the extra damage. This damage is not fire damage.

    Each time he uses this ability, however, he takes 1 point of Constitution damage. This damage cannot be prevented or reduced; channeling hellfire overwhelms all mortal defenses.

    Archetypes

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    Fae Warlock

    Bonus Invocation:
    Beguiling Influence

    Lesser Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to a Fae Warlock's intelligence modifier (minimum 1), they may teleport 10 ft as an immediate action, slipping through the portals to the Hedge and back again in less than a second.
    Moderate Archetype Power: The Fae Warlock is able to subtly change their appearance, shifting forms to whatever suits their whims. They have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as a full-round action as if using a Disguise Self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color or texture, and size, within the limits given for the spell. The Fae Warlock can use this ability at will, and it lasts until the shape is changed again. A Fae Warlock reverts to its natural form when killed. True Seeing reveals its true form. When using this to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on the check.
    Greater Archetype Power: The Fae Warlock radiates a glamor that makes it difficult for anyone to willingly hit them. The Fae Warlock, at the start of each encounter, is treated as under a Sanctuary effect (DC 13+ Cha modifier). However, unlike the sanctuary spell, she may make offensive actions against people without breaking the spell; however, anyone damaged by the Fae Warlock are unaffected by this spell.

    Spell-Bearer

    Bonus Invocation:
    Baleful Utterance

    Lesser Archetype Power: A Spell-Bearer may use Detect Magic at will, his affinity with magical objects allowing him to see magical auras as easily as the ground in front of him.
    Moderate Archetype Power: A Spell-Bearer's affinity with natural items allows him to wield superiority over them; he may take 10 on Use Magic Device checks.
    Greater Archetype Power: The Spell-Bearer's familiarity with magic items has given him the power to craft magic into physical forms in ways he can't shape himself. While crafting an item, the Spell-Bearer may substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC = 15+ spell level) in the place of an arcane spell he doesn't know.

    Glaivelock

    Bonus Invocation:
    Eldritch Glaive

    Lesser Archetype Power: An Glaivelock's familiarity with his signature power allows him to use the Eldritch Glaive invocation as a standard action.
    Moderate Archetype Power: A Glaivelock, when using his Eldritch Glaive invocation, may manifest his Eldritch Glaive as a semi-physical weapon, instead of just energy. While manifested this way, the Eldritch Glaive bypasses spell resistance and can be affected by feats such as Power Attack.
    Greater Archetype Power: An Eldritch Glaivelock's mastery with the Eldritch Glaive becomes unparalleled. He may use the Invocation as a Full-Round action. When he does, he may make an additional attack with the glaive at a -5 penalty.
    Last edited by Fable Wright; 2013-01-20 at 03:00 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    That is awesome, and a perfect adaptation of the class to my subsystem.

    EDIT: I've put community contributions in their own post for posterity.

  12. - Top - End - #162

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    That is awesome, and a perfect adaptation of the class to my subsystem.

    EDIT: I've put community contributions in their own post for posterity.
    You might want to tweak it. It has a few issues, not the least of which is the per day limitation for the Fey Warlock's Lesser Archetype Power.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
    -- ChubbyRain

    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    What is the problem with that? The Blue Mage's Wayfarer archetype has the exact same ability.

    My philosophy is that it's DMofDarkness' class, so any and all tweaks are up to him. I will, however, update the classes in the Community Contributions category as tweaks are made.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    What is the problem with that? The Blue Mage's Wayfarer archetype has the exact same ability.
    The problem is that warlocks are largely defined by a bunch of abilities, done at will.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
    -- ChubbyRain

    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    @ DMofDarkness

    Why the weird eldritch blast damage. 1d6 at 1, then 2d6 at 2, then 3d6 at 6. Seems an unusual progression. Wouldn't 2d6 be more appropriate at 3rd or 4th level.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangles View Post
    @ DMofDarkness

    Why the weird eldritch blast damage. 1d6 at 1, then 2d6 at 2, then 3d6 at 6. Seems an unusual progression. Wouldn't 2d6 be more appropriate at 3rd or 4th level.
    Mostly because I mistyped. :P Fixed.

    Also, the Fae lesser archetype power really should not be made at will. Ever. You're able to use it to teleport away from melee combat, pretty much never getting hit. You can use it to escape a spell's area, or out of LoS/LoE. It's incredibly versatile, and has to have some restriction. Per day in a stat that's normally dumped seemed good enough. I included it because I thought that the Fae warlock had to have some type of transportation ability at a low level, but flight is too powerful and glide seemed out of place. Teleportation worked out with the wizard ACF from PHBII, despite being really strong with it dependant the only stat the wizard needed, so I kept it as is, based off intelligence, and not charisma like the other abilities are. A 2-3/day panic button seems useful, and able to scale with level, if the character invests in Int. Keeping it as is.
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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Just throwing this out there.

    Anyone here interested?

  19. - Top - End - #169
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Hm... interesting idea for a feat:

    Open-Minded
    Prerequisites: Can only be taken at first level, or the level at which you take a new class.
    Benefit: When selecting the archetype for your class, you may instead select an archetype from any class. Benefits advancing class abilities that you do not have do not give you any benefit. (For example, expanded spells known do not grant a non-spellcasting character the ability to cast those spells, and Juggernaut archetypes that grant you benefits when using Interception instead grant you no benefit, unless you have access to the interception power from another class. However, benefits that give you access to a class feature (such as the Warlock archetypes granting access to an invocation) can be used.) Benefits are not gained until you are granted the corresponding feature from your own class; for example, a character selecting an archetype that grants a capstone spell-like ability does not gain that ability at 6th level unless his own class gives him that benefit.

    Also, fixed wording for Fae Warlock's final ability.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Gnorman, any word on finalizing the change to spellcasting to involve Encounters and the at-will SLA? Do you think there's more that needs to be done to balance those elements?

    Also, Illusionist revisions; nerfed Enduring Illusion, empowered Nightmares Made Real, limited Nightmares Made Real to affect one spell or SLA at a time:

    Moderate Archetype Power (Enduring Illusion): Creatures that would see through an illusion spell or illusion SLA cast by the illusionist due to an ability, effect, spell or property must make a caster level (if the effect of a spell or SLA like True Seeing) or HD check against a DC equal to 11 + the illusionist's caster level. On a failure, the creature does not see through that spell or SLA's illusions, and that creature cannot make another check in this way against that illusion spell or SLA for its duration.

    Greater Archetype Power (Nightmares Made Real): Once per encounter, the illusionist may have an illusion spell or illusion SLA cast by him ignore immunity to fear and mind affecting spells. All saving throws that spell or SLA features against Will are instead made against Fortitude. Increase that spell or SLA's Enduring Illusion's DC by +9 for its duration. If that spell or SLA features a save to disbelieve, all saves to disbelieve are removed if that spell or SLA has a save other than one to disbelieve. Otherwise, saves to disbelieve become a normal saving throw with a +2 bonus to the DC. Creatures cannot benefit from proof that the spell or SLA's illusions aren't real or a successfully disbelieving creature's assurance that the spell or SLA's illusions aren't real. This effect lasts only as long as the illusionist concentrates on the spell or SLA. Only one spell or SLA may be subject to this effect at a time.

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Gnorman, any word on finalizing the change to spellcasting to involve Encounters and the at-will SLA? Do you think there's more that needs to be done to balance those elements?

    Also, Illusionist revisions; nerfed Enduring Illusion, empowered Nightmares Made Real, limited Nightmares Made Real to affect one spell or SLA at a time:

    Moderate Archetype Power (Enduring Illusion): Creatures that would see through an illusion spell or illusion SLA cast by the illusionist due to an ability, effect, spell or property must make a caster level (if the effect of a spell or SLA like True Seeing) or HD check against a DC equal to 11 + the illusionist's spell level. On a failure, the creature does not see through that spell or SLA's illusions, and that creature cannot make another check in this way against that illusion spell or SLA for its duration.

    Greater Archetype Power (Nightmares Made Real): Once per encounter, the illusionist may have an illusion spell or illusion SLA cast by him ignore immunity to fear and mind affecting spells. All saving throws that spell or SLA features against Will are instead made against Fortitude. Increase that spell or SLA's Enduring Illusion's DC by +9 for its duration. If that spell or SLA features a save to disbelieve, the save to disbelieve is removed if that spell or SLA has more than one save. Otherwise, the save to disbelieve for that spell or SLA has its DC increased by +4. Creatures cannot benefit from proof that the spell or SLA's illusions aren't real or a successfully disbelieving creature's assurance that the spell or SLA's illusions aren't real. Only one spell or SLA may be subject to this effect at a time.
    A couple of things: First, I don't think that converting spellcasting to encounter/at-will powers is necessarily a good idea. It seems too much like 4e (not saying that's bad, though) to make the base of a 3.5 system. Making a sidebar somewhere (like after the classes or in the last post) about the optional adaptation seems like a better way to go about it than have the base of the system be something that some people that would otherwise like the system have an aversion to.

    Second, the moderate power needs some clarification... is it the Illusionist's caster level, or the illusion's spell level?

    Finally, I really think that the Greater Archetype Power should not be either that strong or encounter based. First, that is REALLY STRONG. It's an illusion that you can't really disbelieve at all that bypasses immunity. Once an encounter illusion bypassing immunities would be a decent capstone by itself. As it is, the wording is really confusing... the illusion spell has half the chance of it's base chance to save against it removed, or the DC increased by 4(!), the second save against it is either impossible to make except by a natural 20 (HD check against 26) or really hard to save against (17+ for epic(!) characters against 23), and all of it fortitude-based (which IMO makes no sense... how does resilience against disease, poison, other such infections help against illusions?) makes for a really convoluted ability that is unreasonably strong, especially compared to other characters. And the fact that it is encounter based and that it's best use is outside of encounters, or just used once against someone, makes it really more powerful than it ought to be. The best use for it (making an illusionary box filled completely with water that people can't effectively save against, or just a bunch of person-sized diamond boxes that you have your fighter swing his sword through that they can't disbelieve) make it really more powerful than it ought to be as a capstone. More of a win the game option, really, which makes it no fun at all.
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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

    #1: I don't think the aversion with 4e had to do with encounter or at-will mechanics so much as perceived homogenization between classes. I have never heard of these elements being a significant issue. In fact, in most cases I find encounter and at-will elements have been well received by 3.5 players, as daily resources are annoying to pace and place strict, unforgiving, all or nothing limits.

    #2: Yes, caster level.

    #3: A couple of things:

    First of all, the HD check is merely concerned with auto-penetrating the illusion via things like True Seeing and the like as per Enduring Illusion. I do not in any way find this overtly powerful so much as I do TS and such which singlehandedly demolish the entire illusion school with casual and absurd ease.

    Second, the functionality of Nightmares Made Real with respect to Fortitude targeting and the elimination of disbelieve rolls is evident in its name. The illusion is made mostly real, having a substantive, tangible presence that is more subject to physical than mental resistance (which is also why it ignores two mental immunities).

    Third, I agree that +4 is probably too strong; +2 is likely more appropriate.

    I'm not sure I understand the difficulty of understanding the feature, that all said; it:

    • Increases the DC of seeing through the illusion via True Seeing and the like as per Enduring Illusion by +9, to DC 20 + caster level.
    • Ignores Mind-Affecting/Fear immunity.
    • Targets Fortitude instead of Will (represents the impact on the target's body rather than mind, or the target's ability to force its way past the now physically substantive illusion).
    • Removes a saving throw to disbelieve from a spell/SLA that has more than one saving throw, OR increases the saving throw to disbelieve by +4 (now +2).
    • Can only affect one spell or SLA at a time.


    Further, I will add a concentration component.

    New text:

    Greater Archetype Power (Nightmares Made Real): Once per encounter, the illusionist may have an illusion spell or illusion SLA cast by him ignore immunity to fear and mind affecting spells. All saving throws that spell or SLA features against Will are instead made against Fortitude. Increase that spell or SLA's Enduring Illusion's DC by +9 for its duration. If that spell or SLA features a save to disbelieve, all saves to disbelieve are removed if that spell or SLA has a save other than one to disbelieve. Otherwise, saves to disbelieve become a normal saving throw with a +2 bonus to the DC. Creatures cannot benefit from proof that the spell or SLA's illusions aren't real or a successfully disbelieving creature's assurance that the spell or SLA's illusions aren't real. This effect lasts only as long as the illusionist concentrates on the spell or SLA. Only one spell or SLA may be subject to this effect at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    First of all, the HD check is merely concerned with auto-penetrating the illusion via things like True Seeing and the like as per Enduring Illusion. I do not in any way find this overtly powerful so much as I do TS and such which singlehandedly demolish the entire illusion school with casual and absurd ease.
    True Seeing: 5th level spell. No longer applicable to E6; illusions are good here. I am not aware of anything else in this level range having power anywhere near that.

    With that said, I completely misinterpreted what Enduring Illusion did. I thought it essentially forced a second saving throw, which would make it really, really strong with the +9 to it. With that said, I really think fortitude is out of place. I understand why you chose it, but honestly, fortitude is not based really on external effects as much as it is internal effects, such as enduring poison, cold, disease, and the like. Will is still disbelief; a wizard should still be more likely to see that this is an illusion than a fighter, even if it is physical now.

    Also, I would still make the encounter/at will powers in a sidebar; it's still a break from the main 3.5 system, and would not really attract too much new interest; it may or may not be a good thing, but I would like to see it posted as it is- a variant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    True Seeing: 5th level spell. No longer applicable to E6; illusions are good here. I am not aware of anything else in this level range having power anywhere near that.
    It's not just the spell itself (which is unlikely to surface), but the ability derived/based on that spell I'm concerned with, and other things that instantly and effortlessly defeat illusions (e.g. see invisibility).

    I understand why you chose it, but honestly, fortitude is not based really on external effects as much as it is internal effects, such as enduring poison, cold, disease, and the like. Will is still disbelief; a wizard should still be more likely to see that this is an illusion than a fighter, even if it is physical now.
    There's also stuff like Implosion, Sound Burst and such; the ability to resist physical duress and imposition both external and internal. Nightmares Made Real transforms the illusion into a true physical, existent entity, so there's no component of disbelief; disbelief is impossible because it's real.

    Also, I would still make the encounter/at will powers in a sidebar; it's still a break from the main 3.5 system, and would not really attract too much new interest; it may or may not be a good thing, but I would like to see it posted as it is- a variant.
    Dailies are and have always been poor design except in cases where that level of restriction and choice destruction is absolutely necessary. I think that keeping lower level spells as encounters, and a basic SLA attack comparable to or slightly better than basic ranged weaponry is perfectly fine for the mages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    It's not just the spell itself (which is unlikely to surface), but the ability derived/based on that spell I'm concerned with, and other things that instantly and effortlessly defeat illusions (e.g. see invisibility).
    How does see invisibility defeat illusions? You see things that are invisible. You don't see around illusions.

    Also, out of curiosity, can you actually find things that a 6th level party is likely to encounter that has this effect? I just want to know how common the effect is, which seems to be a major focus of your archetype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    There's also stuff like Implosion, Sound Burst and such; the ability to resist physical duress and imposition both external and internal. Nightmares Made Real transforms the illusion into a true physical, existent entity, so there's no component of disbelief; disbelief is impossible because it's real.
    Still, those are not actual physical things that they're able to touch. When you touch a solid object created by Major Image, you get a Will saving throw to disbelieve, not a Fortitude one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Dailies are and have always been poor design except in cases where that level of restriction and choice destruction is absolutely necessary. I think that keeping lower level spells as encounters, and a basic SLA attack comparable to or slightly better than basic ranged weaponry is perfectly fine for the mages.
    Nonetheless, it's a variant on the system. Whether it works better or not depends on individual's tastes. I personally like the spells/day system. Honestly, I see why you want to include it, and I see why other people would not. Which is why I'm pressing for a compromise, putting in a sidebar that gives the option of using some encounter based powers, while not rewriting the whole system as it's being used.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    How does see invisibility defeat illusions? You see things that are invisible. You don't see around illusions.
    Ah, nevermind, looked up the spell; it specifically says it does not reveal illusions.

    Also, out of curiosity, can you actually find things that a 6th level party is likely to encounter that has this effect? I just want to know how common the effect is, which seems to be a major focus of your archetype.
    I'm honestly not going to sift through catalogs of mobs looking for creatures with true seeing and other abilities and effects that automatically see through illusions at this time. As insurance though, I suppose Enduring Illusion could use an additional feature. Further, keep in mind that even an E6 party will ultimately face creatures with a CR of greater than 6 as feats are accumulated.

    Still, those are not actual physical things that they're able to touch. When you touch a solid object created by Major Image, you get a Will saving throw to disbelieve, not a Fortitude one.
    It's not a matter of being physical things they're able to touch so much as things that impose physically. With Nightmares Made Real an illusion _does_ become a physical entity that physically imposes. The check isn't to disbelieve so much as it is to bodily overpower and withstand the 'illusion' such that its unreal elements come to the fore, or it can be otherwise shrugged off and ignored.

    Nonetheless, it's a variant on the system. Whether it works better or not depends on individual's tastes. I personally like the spells/day system. Honestly, I see why you want to include it, and I see why other people would not. Which is why I'm pressing for a compromise, putting in a sidebar that gives the option of using some encounter based powers, while not rewriting the whole system as it's being used.
    I would rather that we learn from the mistakes of 3.5 and give the mages this needed fix to keep their play interesting and varied throughout the workday, so that they always have something material to contribute.

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    Hey, DM, can you put that not-spoilered Warlock picture in a spoiler, please?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    I would rather that we learn from the mistakes of 3.5 and give the mages this needed fix to keep their play interesting and varied throughout the workday, so that they always have something material to contribute.
    We learned: it's called 4th edition. I honestly think DMofDarkness makes a good point: if someone comes here to play a 3.5 game, and these classes ARE made for a 3.5 game, well, there should be basic rules he's already somewhat familiar with.

    For example: I never played 4e and don't know it's rules, so now I'd like to ask you what do you mean by "once per encounter". Everytime I fight something? Can I use it outside of combat? And if not, can I randomly stab someone, start an encounter and then use it? If I run away in the middle of a fight, can I drink a cup of tea, read something, come back later and consider it a new encounter? Can I use it everytime I talk with someone? If I punch another party member, do I consider it an encounter?

    I swear to God, I'm not being sarcastic! I'd REALLY want an answer to these questions if I'm supposed to play the class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandria View Post
    We learned: it's called 4th edition. I honestly think DMofDarkness makes a good point: if someone comes here to play a 3.5 game, and these classes ARE made for a 3.5 game, well, there should be basic rules he's already somewhat familiar with.
    There is already plenty of precedence for at-will and encounter elements in 3.5 to start. Expanding those elements to become more commonplace with respect to entirely new classes is hardly a meaningful deviation from the system nor does it even begin to approach 4E; 4E features a far more holistic, encompassing fix, not all of which I agree with, or alternately that has been executed properly (rituals/skill challenges as an example).

    In otherwords, we'd simply be taking what 3.5 got right in its latter years, and what has been proven to consistently work well in 4E, and apply them to this new format.

    For example: I never played 4e and don't know it's rules, so now I'd like to ask you what do you mean by "once per encounter". Everytime I fight something? Can I use it outside of combat? And if not, can I randomly stab someone, start an encounter and then use it? If I run away in the middle of a fight, can I drink a cup of tea, read something, come back later and consider it a new encounter? Can I use it everytime I talk with someone? If I punch another party member, do I consider it an encounter?

    I swear to God, I'm not being sarcastic! I'd REALLY want an answer to these questions if I'm supposed to play the class.
    Once per encounter = 5 minutes of uninterrupted rest/meditation to recover. This was defined earlier in the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Once per encounter = 5 minutes of uninterrupted rest/meditation to recover. This was defined earlier in the thread.
    Where? No, wait, found it. My bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    There is already plenty of precedence for at-will and encounter elements in 3.5 to start.
    Encounter powers in 3.5? Like what? I mean, Tome of Battle's Maneuvers are kind of similar to something encounter based, but they're also a completely different story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    In otherwords, we'd simply be taking what 3.5 got right in its latter years, and what has been proven to consistently work well in 4E, and apply them to this new format.
    Make sense, but I don't think that's the purpose of these classes. We can do it, and it sounds really nice, but I also believe it would be adequate to offer an alternative. There's still someone who likes Vancian magic, after all.
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