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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Aug 2011

    Default Juggler/Jester Build

    So I was wondering if this character concept could be viable with D&D, preferably 3.5:

    Think of it as a cross between the Juggler job from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance and Harley Quinn. I want it not have a heavy focus on damage, but still be useful in combat; so like, using tactics like distraction or maybe using attacks that disable/debuff the enemies we're fighting against so that the barbarian or equivalent can come in and smash them, meanwhile this character is laughing and attacking the next guy.

    I know that thrown weapons invariably suck in 3.5, but this really fits best with the concept (really the way the aforementioned job from FFTA works the closest to what I'm thinking of). I'm willing to do something like, say, juggle fireballs instead, however, just that I use them in an unconventional way (conventional being straight up damage).

    What do you think? Is it viable? Cool, even?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    And yes I realize that the Glot thread that is on the front page might contain similar things and actually uses the phrase, "Jester Juggler"; Ironically enough I clicked on that thread right after making this one :/

    But I would still appreciate any input anyone has on this specific subject.
    Last edited by Karlysle; 2011-09-21 at 12:16 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    Master Thrower is a pretty decent PrC, honestly (one of the best CW has to offer, if you ask me, right up there with Bear Warrior. We don't talk about Hulking Hurler), as is Bloodstorm Blade (BsB is probably technically stronger, but it has a very different feel to it. That's not a bad thing, though). Thrown weapons are a viable strategy in 3.5. If you want Juggler-esque debuffs and status effects, you'll have a harder time (unless you go Boomerang Daze, which is pretty damn powerful and won't be welcome at tables that aren't used to mundane/martial characters having nice things), but it's not impossible, especially if you look into alchemical items (never underestimate a tanglefoot bag). What I'm trying to say is that thrown weapons do in fact work, though they kind of have a dip in power at low-mid levels (they're pretty good out of the box, then they kind of slump for a while while you're getting your feats and such in order, and then they get better once you actually hit Master Thrower and start your real tricks). If I try really hard, I can probably find a way to put some more parenthetical comments into what I'm saying, but I think I'm done (well, except for this one).

    As for the "jester" bit . . . that's all in the flavor, if you ask me. Nothing's stopping your Master Thrower from wearing motley and cracking jokes (or cackling madly, depending on what flavor you're after), after all. There IS a class called the Jester in Dragon Compendium, but it's . . . well, it's not bad, but it's lackluster, if for no other reason than lack of support. I say just fluff it.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2011-09-21 at 01:43 AM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 28. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    TheJake's Avatar

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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    Also, check out the Jester Class (yes, its a full class) in Dragon Compendium. It looked very flavourful and playable to me, although I only skimmed it. It's just a re-tooled Bard so most DMs should permit it.

    - J.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    You might also just use Bard. I totally agree that to get the Master Thrower and or Bloodstorm Blade for prestige classes either is good. Combined they are nasty. Neither will progress your Bard powers.

    I built one that used Dragonstorm Inspiration (I think Dragon Magic) to increase the damage of a lot of little attacks, but I had to take extra music feat to get enough uses of Bardic Music.

    Master Thrower has a power that allows you to trip at a distance. Combine that with palm throw and you can trip a lot of people at a distance. Master Thrower is good at getting you a lot of attacks, so finding good ways to increase your damage per attack is important.

    I think a two level dip into Bloodstorm Blade allows you to expend a manuever to make all your attacks returning for the round. Tome of Battle can make a lot of DM's nervous (though its my favorite book). Returning weapons aren't too expensive, but with a master thrower you'd need a lot of them.

    The Throw Anything Feat that Bloodstorm Blade gets for free at level one is also a feat, I believe in Complete Warrior. So that might be useful to know if you can't use Bloodstorm Blade.

    The Boomerang Daze Feat is racial specific. It is certainly powerful, but it may take shinanigans to make work depending on your choice for race.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    Thank you for the suggestions!

    Is there any way to increase the range on a dagger (or similar) aside from far shot? It seems a little ridiculous to me that they only have 10ft range to begin with...

    (edit:) Also, I don't think Bloodstorm Blade is really what I'm looking for. I'm thinking more of a trickster kind of character than a "throw greataxes at your face" kind, so the trip thing using Master thrower is more in line with my concept.
    Last edited by Karlysle; 2011-09-21 at 08:55 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    hex0's Avatar

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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    I'd like to see someone actually play the Jester base class just because it is so obscure, though...It might need a power boost though, maybe a bonus feat list that includes: Grenadier, Mad Alchemist, Throw Anything etc. Because when I think of Jesters I think of dancing around and throwing bombs in people's faces.

    Spoiler
    Show


    Work with your DM for what you need.

    Edit: re-read the Jester base class and it already gets a few 'catching' related bonus feats. If I updated the class I would give it Quick Draw for free at first, and give it bonus feats at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th that require high ranks in Perform (Comedy), Tumble, and/or Sleight of Hand instead of the regular requirements. My feat list would be: Flick of the Wrist, Grenadier, Mad Alchemist, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, and Throw Anything. Seems a little strong but Jester is basically a Bard with slightly weaker class features and most of those feats aren't gamebreaking to have without the prerequisites. (at least not until you get master thrower). And Jesters should be pulling things out of there big sleeves and chucking them at people. That's part of your character concept, right?
    Last edited by hex0; 2011-09-21 at 02:27 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Telonius's Avatar

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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    Divine Prankster from Races of Stone might be what you're looking for. Has a "Killing Joke" capstone.

    Exemplar from CAdv could let you turn "Perform:Juggling" into something useful.

    Master of Masks is usually a one-level dip at most, but it has a Jester mask.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    Bards might be closer flavorfully, but I think that mechanically rogues would work better. I would rather focus on throwing daggers and such than running around and making fun of everyone (although my character can do that, too!).

    The thing about that is that to be an effective thrower seems like it practically requires sneak attack and javelins, neither of which were what I was really looking for. I don't mind sneak attacks, but I would rather have utility in impeding my enemies through skill with bladed, thrown weapons alone.

    For example, in FFTA the juggler would throw a dagger and it would have a chance to prevent the enemy from attacking. I know there shouldn't be anything that drastic, but is there something like maybe I'm throwing daggers in a distracting way that causes them to take like a -2 to attacks or something?

    Finally, again with the range. I really like the flavor of a character who tosses around knives with expert skill, to the point of pinning someone to a wall from across the room. But most rooms are somewhat larger than 10ft across. Why did it seem like a good idea to make daggers that short range? You might as well take a 5ft step and smack them with it....
    Last edited by Karlysle; 2011-09-21 at 05:14 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    If you're willing to steal from relatively well-known builds and you're open to Bards, there's always Flick.

    Anyway, if you're interested in debuffing . . . one possible avenue is to get a bunch of melee attacks that apply debuffs (Netherese Battle Curse, Intimidating Strike, Brutal Strike, etc.) and use Bloodstorm Blade to make 'em thrown. There's also the feats Ranged Disarm and Ranged Pin, but they kinda suck.

    As for the short range increment on daggers . . . there are ways to increase such things (Far Shot, Goggles of the Near Horizon, and so on), but you also have to remember that you're only taking a 2 per range increment. Sure, you want to take as few penalties as possible, but in no way are you prohibited from attacking from more than 10' away.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2011-09-22 at 12:30 AM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 28. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    TheJake's Avatar

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    Aug 2011

    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    You can't have a thread on Bards and debuffs without mentioning Doomspeak. -10 to all dice rolls for 1 round? Yes please.

    - J.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    I agree that rogue fits the role better mechanically. There is the thief-acrobat PrC (or just use skill tricks to emulate it), Far shot is the feat you are looking for to extend the range of your thrown weapons. Axe thrower allows for adding STR to damage (though you are probably better off dealing SA damage).
    What you want for this build is things like Cloak Dance to gain concealement even in the heat of battle.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    TheRinni's Avatar

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    Default Re: Juggler/Jester Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlysle View Post
    And yes I realize that the Glot thread that is on the front page might contain similar things and actually uses the phrase, "Jester Juggler"; Ironically enough I clicked on that thread right after making this one :/

    But I would still appreciate any input anyone has on this specific subject.
    Funny thing is: I just read your thread after posting a Build made from my original Glot thread. Here's the link to the build I've started concocting for a Jester Glot Juggler: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...9#post11895219
    To suggest/request an avatar for/from me, visit this Thread.

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