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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey McBannert View Post
    Well, that's one of the reasons a charger is superior to a build that relies on precision damage. He's rolling maybe one to three damage dice, and then adding like a thousand. If he rolls a one on the damage die, oh noes, he only gets 1001 damage! If he rolls a ten, meh, he gets 1010. Precision characters that roll that fist-full-d6's have the whole "average die result" issue.
    Unless he rolls a two or three on all of his attacks.
    Then all the damage dice and static multipliers in the world won't matter.
    Also, precision damage, isn't that usually reference to sneak attack or sudden strike?

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Ok, an uber chargers rolls a 2 or 3 on attacks. He's full bab, super high str, and bonuses due to charging/weapon bonuses. In the proposed build at 20, the charger has 54 to hit. That hits anything in the monsters manual on a roll of 2 or better for at least the first hit, and that one hit is an insta gib for anything in the monsters manual.

    And yes, sneak attack, sudden strike and skirmish are all types of precision damage.
    Last edited by soulchicken; 2011-09-25 at 03:05 PM.

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitarismo View Post

    Using ToB in your games isn't a sign of moderate or higher op levels. It's a sign that the DM doesn't want to limit his players, and his opposition to primary casters. It's not the only one, but it's one of the biggest signs he knows what he's doing.
    Knowing what you're doing (and using that knowledge to better the game) is the definition of optimization. That's quite literally what it means.
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Knowing what you're doing (and using that knowledge to better the game) is the definition of optimization. That's quite literally what it means.
    Yeah, that's rather where I was going with that.

    Of course, it's not absolute. Your DM may allow every book the players bring him and none of them have a clue. But in my experience most lower-op DMs disallow TOB because it makes the core melees feel inferior (because they usually are.) They haven't yet made the connection that they're already inferior to Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Sorcerer/Bard. (although, this could be because nobody in their campaign knows how to properly play a spellcaster, in which case, the DM is probably right about banning TOB...it's only once people have some idea what they are doing that it becomes apparent TOB is an improvement on melee balance.)
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by soulchicken View Post
    Ok, an uber chargers rolls a 2 or 3 on attacks. He's full bab, super high str, and bonuses due to charging/weapon bonuses. In the proposed build at 20, the charger has 54 to hit. That hits anything in the monsters manual on a roll of 2 or better for at least the first hit, and that one hit is an insta gib for anything in the monsters manual.

    And yes, sneak attack, sudden strike and skirmish are all types of precision damage.
    And here I was discussing the level 6 build, not the completed level 20 version...

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    And here I was discussing the level 6 build, not the completed level 20 version...
    Tally up the level 6 one.

    6+str of 24, 26 base?+2str for magic items+4 str for rage+2 for charging +1 for the weapon=20ish?

    What's the average ac of a cr 6 monster?

    A character built around charging has a very good chance ofhitting anything they swing at. Chargers hit more consistently than precision damage dealers.

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    @ Herrhauptmann: Some lines of communication got crossed. I was referring to damage rolls, not attack rolls. Sorry for the confusion.

    Yeah, if he misses his attacks, that sucks, but that hurts the precision guy just as much. (I did pull precision-based damage pretty much out of nowhere, mostly just as an example of another high-damage build.)
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by soulchicken View Post
    Tally up the level 6 one.

    6+str of 24, 26 base?+2str for magic items+4 str for rage+2 for charging +1 for the weapon=20ish?

    What's the average ac of a cr 6 monster?

    A character built around charging has a very good chance ofhitting anything they swing at. Chargers hit more consistently than precision damage dealers.
    Hmmm, point.
    My charger types don't usually have stats quite that good (nor are they barbarians), so even with a charge, they'll still miss about half the time. Forgot to take that into account.

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Hmmm, point.
    My charger types don't usually have stats quite that good (nor are they barbarians), so even with a charge, they'll still miss about half the time. Forgot to take that into account.
    Please don't take this in a mean way, but perhaps they aren't doing it right.

    If your job is to charge in enemies and drop enemies, then you need a few things.

    1. Very consistent hit percentage. High str through race/template/levels/magic items combined with high bab through class and shock trooper is what makes sure that you can drive your hit percentage to 95% or as close to it as possible.
    2. Very high damage. If you are going to charge in amongst enemies, you better be able to drop them.
    3. High HPs. You need to be able to survive charging in amongst enemies

    So, if you have chargers that are wiffing half the time, then they aren't doing their jobs right.

    However, if your chargers are doing all the above, then perhaps the DM is throwing enemies at you that have arbitrarily high AC or higher CR then normal.

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Well I've yet to be in a game that allowed Spirit Lion Totem or other forms of pounce.
    Nor have the other players been up to the task of making characters at that level of optimization.

    If I one-shot a monster, we'll just face a stronger monster next time. And I one-shot that one too, so the third is even stronger.
    I could one-shot that third one, unless he wins initiative and eats half the party before I can hit him.

    Under those circumstances, "not making my charger right" is the right choice. While the ubercharger that deals 2d6+1000 damage should remain solely a thought exercise.

  11. - Top - End - #41

    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    I'm with the others in saying that 70 damage on average, at level 6 is pretty fantastic. You're doing in one action what should take three or four less optimized (ie: normal) characters working together to accomplish in a 2 or more rounds. The game isn't supposed to be rocket tag where all monsters and players get die in one round.
    Except that not only is the game rocket tag at all levels, but most of the swordswingers missed out on the memo that they should pick up a launcher. It takes a lot of work to get them playing the same game as everyone else, but that doesn't make it exceptional or impressive when they do.

    The problem with HP damage being 'weak' is that monsters are just as deadly at 2 HP, as they are at 200 HP. (Sometimes more so if they have abilities that activate when hurt to a certain percentage) So if the uber-charge rolls badly on his attacks, he's dead.
    That is the reason why 70 is merely average. Because what happens when you hit for teens, or twenties, or 69 is that the enemy survives and then kills you.

    If the charger doesn't one round his enemy, he's probably dead. But he has a non zero chance to not be dead, unlike the guys swinging for teens and twenties. It's not even worth writing that down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    You don't compare to the monsters, you compare to what the other players are doing.
    Wrong. You're not fighting your party, you're fighting those guys over there. What matters is your ability to kill those guys over there before those guys over there kill you. If you're stuck with teens and twenties, your ability to not die in each and every encounter you face will be the sole purview of the party save or lose casters. No one else contributes to that victory in any way. If there isn't such characters, or they don't do their thing? Enemies hit you, you hit the floor.

    A TOB character is "properly made" out of the box, single classed, without anything other than core and TOB feats. You're using high-op multiclassing scenarios and dips and calling them "properly made." Most DMs will have a fit with these types of builds. They're more theoretical than real builds.
    If you get a DM that throws a fit because someone created a martial character that might be able to do something other than act as a pinata for the monsters, you take note of the warning sign that that DM has no idea what he is doing, and if feeling vindictive you destroy his campaign with a core only Druid to set him straight.

    Complaining about martial characters dipping many different classes is like complaining that the sun is hot.

    A typical low-op single-class fighter with the weapon focus and power attack lines only sucks when compared against core wizard/druid/cleric/sorcerer. It's still very viable and very survivable in game.
    And then initiative is called for, combat begins, and suddenly they aren't so viable and survivable anymore. Actually scratch that, before combat there is presumably some sort of out of combat segment. With exactly 0 skills to contribute, the Fighter is a wall decoration. This is because such a character sucks compared to level appropriate opposition. As in those guys over there that they are fighting.

    You're not always 12 seconds away from death.
    True. You are a maximum of 12 seconds from death. That, by definition means it sometimes takes less than 12 to die.

    Contrary to popular believe, core melees can go toe-to-toe with core dragons and survive, easily (assuming they have their party with them.)
    For up to 12 seconds, though likely closer to 6 in that instance.

    The problem with charOp boards and the like is people who frequent them get an unbalanced idea of what you need for the game to be playable.
    You are aware that many of the people on optimization boards arrived there because they tried to play something bad (say, a core Fighter with PA and WF), learned it was bad the hard way, was curious to see what they did wrong and found those forums and communities that way, through their own experiences?

    The good optimizers at least have a very good grasp of what is required of them. Unfortunately there are others that will set you up to fail, with such comments as "teens and twenties damage at level 6 is viable".

    With no optimization at all, the core classes all function (except maybe monk.) Hell, with no optimization at all, the core fighter functions better than the core wizard (since a degree of system mastery is required for a wizard to even survive, let alone be effective. Of course, they get that system mastery under control and proceed to turn most battles into a cakewalk, but that's another issue.) The game isn't usually that lethal. Most of your opponents are also low-op fighters or melee type builds. Or mindless undead, or animals, or magical beasts without a plethora of SLAs.
    Even if you ignore enemies with spellcasting ability, they still flat out kill you in one or two full attacks. And that means that the core non caster classes are just wasted space. Except Monk, non core redeems them but in core only? Forget about it, your party is Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Wizard.

    All that's required for a Wizard to be good is for them to realize that casting a spell to do less damage than their crossbow which has more ammo is bad and casting a spell to instantly take out enemies in an area is good. And that's good enough to MVP any core only encounter.

    Adding non core to the mix makes things more balanced, not less as suddenly martial characters are not throwaways, and suddenly things have better saves and so forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Knowing what you're doing (and using that knowledge to better the game) is the definition of optimization. That's quite literally what it means.
    You know as well as I do that that wasn't what they were getting at. How else do you explain comments like "ToB makes core only melee feel inferior" when the problem was that the stuff that they were fighting did that years before Tome of Battle made non magical sword swinging better.

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitarismo View Post
    Except that not only is the game rocket tag at all levels, but most of the swordswingers missed out on the memo that they should pick up a launcher.
    What rockets do casters shoot at level six? You'll find few even functional save-or-dies here like deep slumber and hold person. Because of their limitations, save-or-suck spells typically receive the recommendation instead. Spells such as great thunderclap and slow aren't rockets by any reasonable definition.

    If the charger doesn't one round his enemy, he's probably dead.
    You exaggerate the capabilities of stock 3.5 monsters. For example, an ettin deals an average of 26 damage if it connects with both attacks. That's not going to kill a six-level martial character.
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    For the record, "standard", unoptimized damage output at level 6 is something like 2d6+(1,5*4)+(2*2)+1+2 -> 20 points of damage per attack. This includes Weapon Specialization because, repeat, we are talking "unoptimized".

    So yeah, doing 70 damage on a charge at that level is pretty awesome.

    Picking out one CR6 monster at random, I got the Babau, which has... 66HP. Looking at some more, most CR6s have less than 60HP.
    So our Ubercharger would totally be able to one-shot this bugger. A creature, may I remind you, whose Challenge Rating implies that it's supposed to eat 20% of the resources of _four_ level 6 characters. Instead, it will eat _zero_ resources if the Charger gets to act first and do his shtick.

    @Thread Creator:
    Spirit Lion Barb is one pretty common way to get Pounce, but not the only one. There's also a ToB maneuver that gives you Pounce, but isn't available before level 9 and has some prerequites. Another way would be a Psionic power, available to a PsyWar at level 4. There are more, but those seem to be the most common ones for a Melee type.

    The problem with Charging is that there are umpteen ways to foil a charge. It starts with difficult terrain and extends to a number of spells that deny the pony its one trick. We've gathered a bunch of ways to stop a charge here.
    Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incanur View Post
    What rockets do casters shoot at level six? You'll find few even functional save-or-dies here like deep slumber and hold person. Because of their limitations, save-or-suck spells typically receive the recommendation instead. Spells such as great thunderclap and slow aren't rockets by any reasonable definition.
    Slow, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud... All either render enemies completely incapable of fighting back or remove so much of their ability to fight back that it's close enough to a complete removal.

    Even something like Great Thunderclap is both a strong and a weak save or lose in an AoE at the same time. The deafen part is ignorable sure, but you're still hitting a strong and a weak one at once. Even so the best spell rockets are core only. So you'll still be dealing with those.

    You exaggerate the capabilities of stock 3.5 monsters. For example, an ettin deals an average of 26 damage if it connects with both attacks. That's not going to kill a six-level martial character.
    I see that you cherry picked one of the weaker examples. Even so a Fighter at that level has 49 HP. That's in two round range even then.

    The 20% of resources thing has always been a farce, and you know it.

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Yeah, most 3.5 monsters simply aren't that dangerous. The Ettin example was good.

    An even-level CR can often be soloed by a pure fighter using only core. A party of 4 is meant to face 4-5 even-levelled CR encounters a day, the average encounter is expected to use more than 25% of a party's daily resources. Yet most of the time, you don't even face even levelled CRs. You instead face multiples of lower levelled CRs together. (Which, btw, is an amusing way for a DM to counter the "rocket-tag" effect of charger builds...if you are facing three times as many enemies, none of them with more than 1/3 the hit points you do in a charge, then your charging is pointless.)

    Let's take a look at one of the most powerful of melee opponents, the Dragon.

    A typical CR6 dragon is a Juvenile White. It has a 4d6 breath weapon, and 102 hit points. It has a +15 primary attack modifier (which is about a 60-70% hit rate against a level 6 fighter in full plate), and hits for 1d8+3 with that attack. It also gets a pair of 1d6+1 claw attacks and a pair of 1d4+1 wing attacks at +10. It has 21 AC.

    Now, admittedly, a white is not the pinnacle of dragon power, but we are talking about a CR6 here. The very young CR5 red does a bit more damage, but is actually easier to beat (unsurprising, it's a lower CR). There's not a chance in hell the CR-appropriate white one-shots the fighter, he's averaging 12 damage per full attack, and it's going to take at least three rounds, probably more, and the fighter is getting healed during this time, too.

    This is significantly tougher than the typical encounter at that level.
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incanur View Post
    You exaggerate the capabilities of stock 3.5 monsters. For example, an ettin deals an average of 26 damage if it connects with both attacks. That's not going to kill a six-level martial character.
    CR6 also contains the Girallon and 7-headed Hydra, which are probably the highpoints of that level for potential damage output (Honorable Mention for a Kyton using its Dancing Chains ability to control four spiked chains at once.) Girallon gets 4 claws, bite, and bonus Rend if it hits with any two claws; on a full hit damage from Strength bonus alone is (4x6) + 3 + 9 = 36. Rolled damage will add between 7 and 32 more. That might not drop an especially beefy 6th level character, but 2 rounds of it will. The Hydra is, well, a Hydra. Its attack is 7d10 + 24, range 31 to 94 damage. Again, you'll probably survive one round, you probably won't survive 2. (That is neglecting hit rolls; if you're actually building for AC, you can reduce these monsters to a 50% or lower chance to hit, which should make them quite survivable for at least as long as it takes the rest of your party to get rid of them. On the other hand, if you Shock Troopered one and failed to kill it, you're in for a lot of pain.)

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    On the other hand, if you Shock Troopered one and failed to kill it, you're in for a lot of pain.)
    That's rather the point of shock trooper though, isn't it? You don't get something for nothing. Chances are, even if you do kill it, you're in for a lot of pain, as the bad guy's three buddies all gang up on you next. "Rocket tag" is a good name for charger combatants, so long as you remember that the charger is the rocket themselves, and not the person firing it. You probably only get to use them once.
    Last edited by Talya; 2011-09-25 at 06:03 PM.
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Yeah, most 3.5 monsters simply aren't that dangerous. The Ettin example was good.

    An even-level CR can often be soloed by a pure fighter using only core. A party of 4 is meant to face 4-5 even-levelled CR encounters a day, the average encounter is expected to use more than 25% of a party's daily resources. Yet most of the time, you don't even face even levelled CRs. You instead face multiples of lower levelled CRs together. (Which, btw, is an amusing way for a DM to counter the "rocket-tag" effect of charger builds...if you are facing three times as many enemies, none of them with more than 1/3 the hit points you do in a charge, then your charging is pointless.)
    More than 25% like... 1 person per encounter? I'm glad we're in agreement then.

    Multiple lower level enemies do more damage collectively, so that just means more rockets going your way and the charger isn't as good at dealing with them (which is why you would want more than one damage dealer to be capable of doing their job).

    And if you want to play the alternate encounter card, boss fights are like normal fights except there's four of them at once. At that point you really do need everyone pulling their weight, because if any two enemies get a turn, at least one person is going down.

    The simple fact of the matter is that a spoony bard does damage in the twenties at this level, and if a Bard is contributing as much, or more damage than the people that do nothing but damage and that's before counting what his songs do for everyone else then you are not a contributing party member.

    That is also not how you calculate averages. 1d8+3 1d6+1 1d6+1 1d4+1 1d4+1 is a lot more than 12. And that's before giving the dragon the feats and items available to it. I don't think it can cast spells at that level. So even the Medium dragon performs far better than you give it credit for.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    CR6 also contains the Girallon and 7-headed Hydra, which are probably the highpoints of that level for potential damage output (Honorable Mention for a Kyton using its Dancing Chains ability to control four spiked chains at once.) Girallon gets 4 claws, bite, and bonus Rend if it hits with any two claws; on a full hit damage from Strength bonus alone is (4x6) + 3 + 9 = 36. Rolled damage will add between 7 and 32 more. That might not drop an especially beefy 6th level character, but 2 rounds of it will. The Hydra is, well, a Hydra. Its attack is 7d10 + 24, range 31 to 94 damage. Again, you'll probably survive one round, you probably won't survive 2. (That is neglecting hit rolls; if you're actually building for AC, you can reduce these monsters to a 50% or lower chance to hit, which should make them quite survivable for at least as long as it takes the rest of your party to get rid of them. On the other hand, if you Shock Troopered one and failed to kill it, you're in for a lot of pain.)
    You only live once. That's the thing. You might reduce the chance of them hitting, but they will eventually hit enough times. And eventually means later in the same adventuring day most likely. That's why using weighted averages to attempt to calculate the damage you take doesn't work. You either win every fight or you lose once and make a new character/get an expensive raise. That means the best defense is a good offense, aka kill them first. Shock Trooper, while not the best does manage to do this. Whereas the limp wristed sorts have no recourse but to die.

    But there's nothing wrong with sword swingers being able to play D&D just like everyone else.
    Last edited by Elitarismo; 2011-09-25 at 06:12 PM.

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitarismo View Post
    That is also not how you calculate averages. 1d8+3 1d6+1 1d6+1 1d4+1 1d4+1 is a lot more than 12.
    I was fairly generous with the average.

    65% chance of hitting with the primary.
    Average damage of 1d8+3 = 7.5
    65% of 7.5 = slightly less than 5. Round up.

    40% of hitting with the secondary attacks.
    The average of 2d6+2d4+4 = 16.
    40% of 16 = 6.4. I rounded up to 7.

    5+7 = 12.
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitarismo View Post
    Slow, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud... All either render enemies completely incapable of fighting back or remove so much of their ability to fight back that it's close enough to a complete removal.
    Somebody still has to fully incapacitate them somehow or they'll recover. Blinding your foes isn't the same as simply obliterating them - not aesthetically and not practically.

    I see that you cherry picked one of the weaker examples.
    I just grabbed the ettin arbitrarily with no particular intent. It's status as a classic D&D critter might have drawn me to it.

    Even so a Fighter at that level has 49 HP.
    Assuming a human with a 25pt point buy, maybe. Even then they might have 16 Con.

    That's in two round range even then.
    Combat does usually end in 2-3 rounds in my experience. That's with characters ranging from outrageously incompetent to fairly optimized. Rocket tag doesn't quite describe the dynamic except for the charger builds in question. The power of long-duration buffs makes dispelling almost mandatory at higher levels. You often can't simply hurl a save-or-die or massive damage combo and expect results.
    Last edited by Incanur; 2011-09-25 at 06:22 PM.
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitarismo View Post

    You know as well as I do that that wasn't what they were getting at. How else do you explain comments like "ToB makes core only melee feel inferior" when the problem was that the stuff that they were fighting did that years before Tome of Battle made non magical sword swinging better.
    {Scrubbed}

    You commented that a 70 dpr charger is not particularly optimized. Several people have pointed out that it is, because degree of optimization measures degree of effort and knowledge put into making a build better at what it does, not how effective the build is in general. Hence the relative irrelevance of optimization levels to the Tier system. You continue to misinterpret their arguments as arguments about what behavior is appropriate in-game, when they are clearly semantic. You used a word differently from how others on this forum use it, and you are ignoring the attempts of the community to correct you.
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2011-09-27 at 03:04 PM.
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incanur View Post
    Somebody still has to fully incapacitate them somehow or they'll recover. Blinding your foes isn't the same as simply obliterating them - not aesthetically and not practically.
    1 round/level. Much longer than they will live. HP damage at that point is a formality. Battle's over. Snape killed Dumbledore. Go home.

    Assuming a human with a 25pt point buy, maybe. Even then they might have 16 Con.
    I assumed 32. 18 Str, 14 Con leaves 10 for the other stats. 16 Con only leaves 6. Even then, 55 HP is still (barely) in two round range. Because despite what some people think and as I have already pointed out once, you don't use weighted averages here.

    Combat does usually end in 2-3 rounds in my experience. That's with characters ranging from outrageously incompetent to fairly optimized.
    Which means that you better hope you go first.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitarismo View Post
    1 round/level. Much longer than they will live.
    Glitterdust starts out at only three rounds and blind foes can still kill you even if it's not terribly likely. The classic God strategy assumes a Big Stupid Fighter of some sort. Without someone to capitalize on the opportunities created, debuffs and battlefield control become less impressive.
    Last edited by Incanur; 2011-09-25 at 06:29 PM.
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Well I've yet to be in a game that allowed Spirit Lion Totem or other forms of pounce.
    Nor have the other players been up to the task of making characters at that level of optimization.

    If I one-shot a monster, we'll just face a stronger monster next time. And I one-shot that one too, so the third is even stronger.
    I could one-shot that third one, unless he wins initiative and eats half the party before I can hit him.

    Under those circumstances, "not making my charger right" is the right choice.
    That's not a choice. That's a DMing problem. If your DM keeps upping the ante like that, and it gets to the point where half of the party gets wiped or otherwise rendered useless, then the DM is the problem. It's a sign that the DM is not prepared to deal with any amount of optimization at all, and wants the encounters to play out like a Final Fantasy boss fight.

    To repeat: That isn't a choice. The DM is literally trying to force you to slow down in combat, and doesn't understand that most 3.5 Encounters last less than 5 rounds by default. The old-fashioned "Random enemy in the middle of an open field" type encounters typically last under 3 unless they are significantly stronger than the party's ECL, at which point the party lasts under 3 rounds.

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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Fau View Post
    That's not a choice. That's a DMing problem. If your DM keeps upping the ante like that, and it gets to the point where half of the party gets wiped or otherwise rendered useless, then the DM is the problem. It's a sign that the DM is not prepared to deal with any amount of optimization at all, and wants the encounters to play out like a Final Fantasy boss fight.

    To repeat: That isn't a choice. The DM is literally trying to force you to slow down in combat, and doesn't understand that most 3.5 Encounters last less than 5 rounds by default. The old-fashioned "Random enemy in the middle of an open field" type encounters typically last under 3 unless they are significantly stronger than the party's ECL, at which point the party lasts under 3 rounds.
    In my experience, between levels 1-18, anyway (i've never played higher than that), 4-5 rounds is a typical battle. Now, admittedly, I was the only one with a touch of optimization through most of the campaign (and even she had some intentionally suboptimal choices for flavor) --we had my sorceress/heartwarder, a dwarf paladin, a dwarf fighter/cleric (who was about our least powerful party member -- too much focus on smacking stuff on a character who couldn't do it well), and a 2wf Ranger/fighter (who was actually pretty effective, even without the bonus damage). Needless to say, the party took a while to kill stuff, but we actually had only one death in the entire campaign -- and it wasn't like we only fought easy stuff. It was mostly demons and dragons the entire time, in addition to the easier ones - cultists and drow mercenaries and a fallen paladin/blackguard.

    I actually support exactly what you describe here - the monsters in D&D are well balanced already against the type of party we had above. This is what people don't get...it's not the encounters that outclass Tier 3-5 characters. It's the tier 1-2 characters that outclass everything else. If people start optimizing heavily, to maintain the challenge level, the DM has to creep higher as well. If we'd had an ubercharger, and the DM hadn't flat out refused it, he would have been well advised to start making heavier use of difficult terrain and obstacles, or ensuring said ubercharger was heavily attacked whenever his AC was down from a charge. Doing so would have been just good DMing.
    Last edited by Talya; 2011-09-25 at 07:19 PM.
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    Default Re: What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

    {{Scrubbed}}
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2014-01-14 at 12:49 PM.

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