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2011-10-04, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
I don't know. I think there's a lot of incompetence involved (or rules changes where no one goes through the entire rule-set to see how it interacts).
When 4th ed first came out I assumed that they knew what they were doing and it seemed to work, then about a year or so in.... Four hits from an equal level foe is supposed to take down a PC or standard monster. PC HP went up by about 5 a level. Monster damage went up by about 0.5 a level. It was right there in the DMG in black and white.
Monster damage going up by 1 a level with a slowly increasing number and power of limited use powers would manage what they claimed to want, the actual damage was going up half that speed.
No wonder higher level combat seemed to take forever and represent no threat to the characters.
I added to my houserules, "Monster damage for standard monsters goes up by 1 every odd level except level 1", with equivalent boosts for other secondary roles.
It was almost a year later that WotC issued the errata that did almost exactly that boost for standards (their fix was more comprehensive than mine, and a bit better, but it shouldn't take the designers a year longer than the customers to notice a fundamental break in the math).
I can forgive math fix feats, how limited use powers and to-hit interact for PCs isn't obvious, but the monster errata is something that leaps out at you the moment you actually THINK seriously about the values in the DMG, and it took two years AFTER release for WotC to fix that.
DougL
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2011-10-04, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2005
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Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
The next edition should be d100 based. Why? Because it's %edition! According to a lot of people, the current edition is $edition, the previous one was definitely #edition, I would even argue that the ones before that were @ and ! edition.
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2011-10-04, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Euphonistan
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2011-10-04, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2005
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2011-10-05, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
I started playing D&D with 3.5. At that time, my wife got frustrated by the amount of time I would spend playing only to come home and complain about aspects of game play. I was so excited about fourth edition because it fixed the aspects that frustrated me the most. Since fourth's release, however, my play time has been severely limited and it's hard for me to visualize what aspects of the game need to be changed.
The thing with Magic updates is that older cards are all still compatible with newer decks, if a bit underpowered. I believe that this was the idea with essentials; give players new options and mechanics while allowing them to play with others that used the older options.
Looking through the link at the top of the thread, this is the sentiment of one of the posts there. Fourth edition aimed at keeping everyone balanced and working together. Seeker in the other thread hypothesized that fifth edition will focus on making things simpler, with less aspects to track, something that could be turned into an app or an online program. This makes sense, but you make a good point in showing that they'll have to compete with others. They should also consider those that want a game that won't require fancy phones or internet presence.
Fourth edition will always hold a special place in my heart, but it will be interesting to see what the future brings.
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2011-10-05, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
No, the thing with Magic is that in any official game, you can only use cards from the most recent sets. Compare the D&D Encounters program, that indeed only allows you to make characters using the most recent books.
And it's not the case that every Magic set is more powerful than the preceding one; if anything, they're weaker than the first few sets. Of course, that holds for 4.4 as well: most of it is significantly weaker than the 4.0 stuff. It's not a bad comparison, really.
Seeker in the other thread hypothesized that fifth edition will focus on making things simpler, with less aspects to track, something that could be turned into an app or an online program.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2011-10-05, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Just curious. Who was the first to apply "grognard" to people who are unhappy about 4E? Why did it "stick" as a nickname? (aside from being a funny French word)
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2011-10-05, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Euphonistan
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Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Not sure when it was picked up but grognard means "old soldier" in French (among other things). It was then used to describe wargamers as slang. Somewhere along the line it came to include people liking older editions. It may have been due to D&D originally being a wargame and when Gygax left he was an old wargamer so when people started talking about 1e people (after 2e came out) that sided with Gygax and his old wargaming folks grognard would make a lot of sense. Then the term stuck as a way to describe people preferring older editions of all types. Just my thought.
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2011-10-05, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Man, passively following gaming can come back and bite you if you suddenly try to actively jump into it.
Most of my Magic experience comes from pick up games at a scout summer camp when the strongest card anyone had was "Lord of the Pit" (7/7 flying trample). At that time, my friends were complaining about how fourth edition revised removed the burning pentagram from "Unholy Strength."
My only Encounters experience was right after Player's Handbook Three was released. At that event, using the new book was encouraged (players were given bonus points for doing so) but not enforced. I didn't realize that official events now require using only the most recent releases.
Thanks for updating me on Wizards' sponsored events policies. Luckily, as a passive gamer, I don't have to worry too much about those. Now, as long as fifth edition doesn't get released with Wizards' secret edition ninjas that make customers burn all old source material, I won't whine too loud about what it might contain.Last edited by Glinthall; 2011-10-05 at 02:43 PM.
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2011-10-05, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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2011-10-05, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Protecting my Horde (yes, I mean that kind)
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
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2011-10-05, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Euphonistan
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2011-10-06, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
These days it's mostly about internal consistency inside a set, which is one of the reasons they restrict cards in tourneys (the other of course being money). One set may have a bunch of artifacts and things that affect artifacts, while another may be tribal, with cards that boost "all goblins" and goblins being found in the green and red colors, for example. Noticing that decks were shifting to faster and faster play there was one experimental set brought out based around colossi, a lot of cheaper wall-like creatures (more toughness than strength) to hold off the enemy while you try to get enough mana to summon your game-ender before they do.
I don't play but my best friend does, and when he starts digging into the theory behind a new set I can't get him to shut up. So some things above may be slightly inaccurate but they aren't intended to be.Now with half the calories!
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2011-10-08, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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- Right here
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Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
I think the main effect of this rumor is that the folks on enworld are going to be occupied for weeks with happily predicting that 5th edition will involve WOTC admitting 4e was a mistake, and returning to D&D 3.5.
They're kind of predictable that way.Last edited by Eric Tolle; 2011-10-08 at 11:17 AM.
"Conan what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, to sell them inexpensive furniture you can assemble yourself with an Allen wrench. And meatballs."
"Meatballs. That is good!"
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2011-10-08, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- North Carolina, USA
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Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
I just very recently downgraded my opinion on 4e. I'm eagerly awaiting 5e.
Don't get me wrong - I still love 4e, just not as much as I used to. But until WotC get's off their scrubbed and actually gives support to the classes that need it instead of giving yet another build to Wizards, I'm angry. Very angry. Seriously WotC, why in the world would you release new material as a Wizard when there were several other classes that you could have made the fluff fit? Even if it's not a class that's woefully under-supported, anything is better than giving Wizards and Fighters another build!Thank you Ceika for the wonderful Avatar avatar!
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2011-10-08, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Euphonistan
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Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Saly one mistake I think wizards realized they made on 4e was that they made too many distinct classes that had no reason to be a distinct full class. Hence why the sub classes going around now. For instance the rune priest could have been a sub build of cleric. In addition to reducing class bloat this would have given str clerics more powers and runepriest more power to choose from. Seekers could have been added to rangers or druids (depending on who you think they would have made more sense). Sorcerers could have just been a wizard striker build and it could have been int/cha (cha based striker mechanic) and then they would have been better strikers and had even better support.
Some classes could remain distinct such as most psionic classes, avengers (you could have made them into a divine monk but I don't think it is needed), warlocks, warlords, and the like but there are a number of classes that could have just as easily been subclasses and then we would not have a problem of trying to support so many similar classes with distinct support.
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2011-10-09, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2011-10-09, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2004
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Many designers are usually more concerned with creating the next thing than in working out how things interact. They don't want to be told, "No, we're rejecting your idea for a songmangler class because any attempt to give it adequate feat and item support would simply break the bard and runepriest classes," and I can't say I blame them.
Unfortunately, it means that the DM sometimes needs to step in and rule on whether or not hybrid classes or Dragon Magazine options are supported, banned, or required. In general, it's best for a DM to follow the KISS principle in such matters, even if the players chafe at being limited to more options than they could play in a lifetime.
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2011-10-09, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26...ns_5th_Edition
Found this obnoxious but obligatory.Fiberoptic Elflord avatar by Guest#1!
"It's like we fell down the rabbit hole and ended up in Stephen King's basement..."
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2011-10-09, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
http://www.gamegrene.com/node/971
/tg/ did not invent that article. As an aside, the article is terrible because the writer had to include WoW because "haha 4e is WoW I'm so funny guys."Last edited by MagnusExultatio; 2011-10-09 at 01:16 PM.
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2011-10-11, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Word. They nearly lost me with Essentials and these card packs are not helping situations.
I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with the next edition, though.
My question is... where do they go from 4e? Simpler? More complex?
Man, I'll probably be griping in 20 years about how 4th edition was the best edition and that the game people are playing now is just a ripoff of whatever Blizzard's current cash cow is.
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2011-10-12, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2011-10-12, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2011-10-12, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Here's to hoping 5E combat is like Tome of Battle, 5E magic is like Expanded Psionics, 5E skills is like Pathfinder, and 5E classes is like Pathfinder.
The way 4E should have been.
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2011-10-12, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
So it would be 3.5e?
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2011-10-12, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Seriously, not exactly, but it is the general direction 3E was heading before they decided to abandon ship and start over with a whole new game system. While I'm ok with 3E magic, I acknowledge some people are outraged over it. 3E Psionics system does at least curtail some of the power. 4E does help improve combat, but Tome of Battle did it better.
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2011-10-13, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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- Australia
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2011-10-13, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
Oh, dude, do not remind me of that travesty. I downloaded the playtest rules and gave them a try and its just so dumbed down its ridiculous. No charging, no flanking, no status effects, no opportunity attacks, you need to tap a card to 'Sneak Attack', you deploy creatures and use cards using a 'gold' (aka mana) pool... Not remotely my thing.
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2011-10-14, 05:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2005
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- In the playground
Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards
This is just too perfect. I only just learned how to get over hating 4e and realize that some people don't feel like waiting half an hour to finish a combat. I wonder how long it will take other people to adjust.
(I dislike 4e because you get to prepare only a few at will/per encounter/per day abilities rather than the flexibility of psions or spell slots to prepare whatever the hell you want. I also dislike that the powers all follow a specific template whereas 3.5 spells or powers could do whatever you could write them up as doing. I do understand why some people like it though and have moved past trolling about why I hate it and just let them play their stuff while I play mine.)There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2011-10-18, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards