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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Shatteredtower View Post
    The game does give a very "We're learning as we go," impression to its design, though some of that may result from different design teams working toward different objectives.
    I don't know. I think there's a lot of incompetence involved (or rules changes where no one goes through the entire rule-set to see how it interacts).

    When 4th ed first came out I assumed that they knew what they were doing and it seemed to work, then about a year or so in.... Four hits from an equal level foe is supposed to take down a PC or standard monster. PC HP went up by about 5 a level. Monster damage went up by about 0.5 a level. It was right there in the DMG in black and white.

    Monster damage going up by 1 a level with a slowly increasing number and power of limited use powers would manage what they claimed to want, the actual damage was going up half that speed.

    No wonder higher level combat seemed to take forever and represent no threat to the characters.

    I added to my houserules, "Monster damage for standard monsters goes up by 1 every odd level except level 1", with equivalent boosts for other secondary roles.

    It was almost a year later that WotC issued the errata that did almost exactly that boost for standards (their fix was more comprehensive than mine, and a bit better, but it shouldn't take the designers a year longer than the customers to notice a fundamental break in the math).

    I can forgive math fix feats, how limited use powers and to-hit interact for PCs isn't obvious, but the monster errata is something that leaps out at you the moment you actually THINK seriously about the values in the DMG, and it took two years AFTER release for WotC to fix that.

    DougL

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    The next edition should be d100 based. Why? Because it's %edition! According to a lot of people, the current edition is $edition, the previous one was definitely #edition, I would even argue that the ones before that were @ and ! edition.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by WitchSlayer View Post
    The next edition should be d100 based. Why? Because it's %edition! According to a lot of people, the current edition is $edition, the previous one was definitely #edition, I would even argue that the ones before that were @ and ! edition.
    Better hope it is the last then since nobody wants the exponential edition.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Better hope it is the last then since nobody wants the exponential edition.
    That's for when we all have hyperchip implants in our brains.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    I started playing D&D with 3.5. At that time, my wife got frustrated by the amount of time I would spend playing only to come home and complain about aspects of game play. I was so excited about fourth edition because it fixed the aspects that frustrated me the most. Since fourth's release, however, my play time has been severely limited and it's hard for me to visualize what aspects of the game need to be changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Well, it's certainly possible. MtG has traditionally had a new edition every two years, and has moved on to a yearly edition in 2010. MtG is bringing in much more money than D&D is, so it would make sense for Hasbro to use similar strategies for D&D.
    The thing with Magic updates is that older cards are all still compatible with newer decks, if a bit underpowered. I believe that this was the idea with essentials; give players new options and mechanics while allowing them to play with others that used the older options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Also, it's a matter of design principles. 4E has online tools, but is at its core a pen-and-paper game. It seems there's a big market for phone apps, facebook apps, and other online tools, so it would make sense to make a game fundamentally aimed at that. Of course, it's a pretty crowded market too.
    Looking through the link at the top of the thread, this is the sentiment of one of the posts there. Fourth edition aimed at keeping everyone balanced and working together. Seeker in the other thread hypothesized that fifth edition will focus on making things simpler, with less aspects to track, something that could be turned into an app or an online program. This makes sense, but you make a good point in showing that they'll have to compete with others. They should also consider those that want a game that won't require fancy phones or internet presence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Also, it's a matter of design That said, this is hardly the first rumor for 5E, and we have no way of knowing whether any of that is true. WOTC will, of course, deny everything until they have a product ready to sell. But it's fun to speculate, and it's certainly plausible that 5E will appear at some point.
    Fourth edition will always hold a special place in my heart, but it will be interesting to see what the future brings.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinthall View Post
    The thing with Magic updates is that older cards are all still compatible with newer decks, if a bit underpowered.
    No, the thing with Magic is that in any official game, you can only use cards from the most recent sets. Compare the D&D Encounters program, that indeed only allows you to make characters using the most recent books.

    And it's not the case that every Magic set is more powerful than the preceding one; if anything, they're weaker than the first few sets. Of course, that holds for 4.4 as well: most of it is significantly weaker than the 4.0 stuff. It's not a bad comparison, really.

    Seeker in the other thread hypothesized that fifth edition will focus on making things simpler, with less aspects to track, something that could be turned into an app or an online program.
    I think that to promote an app or online program, you need more aspects to track, so that it becomes infeasible to do it with pen and paper. The more tiny fiddly bonuses, the better. Actually, 4E already has a lot of those: you do 2d8 damage, +1d8 when charging, +2 when bloodied, +3 when your enemy is bloodied, +1 more when flanking, and +2 when within three squares of your leader.... yeah.
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Just curious. Who was the first to apply "grognard" to people who are unhappy about 4E? Why did it "stick" as a nickname? (aside from being a funny French word)

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbody View Post
    Just curious. Who was the first to apply "grognard" to people who are unhappy about 4E? Why did it "stick" as a nickname? (aside from being a funny French word)
    Not sure when it was picked up but grognard means "old soldier" in French (among other things). It was then used to describe wargamers as slang. Somewhere along the line it came to include people liking older editions. It may have been due to D&D originally being a wargame and when Gygax left he was an old wargamer so when people started talking about 1e people (after 2e came out) that sided with Gygax and his old wargaming folks grognard would make a lot of sense. Then the term stuck as a way to describe people preferring older editions of all types. Just my thought.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    No, the thing with Magic is that in any official game, you can only use cards from the most recent sets. Compare the D&D Encounters program, that indeed only allows you to make characters using the most recent books.

    And it's not the case that every Magic set is more powerful than the preceding one; if anything, they're weaker than the first few sets. Of course, that holds for 4.4 as well: most of it is significantly weaker than the 4.0 stuff. It's not a bad comparison, really.
    Man, passively following gaming can come back and bite you if you suddenly try to actively jump into it.

    Most of my Magic experience comes from pick up games at a scout summer camp when the strongest card anyone had was "Lord of the Pit" (7/7 flying trample). At that time, my friends were complaining about how fourth edition revised removed the burning pentagram from "Unholy Strength."

    My only Encounters experience was right after Player's Handbook Three was released. At that event, using the new book was encouraged (players were given bonus points for doing so) but not enforced. I didn't realize that official events now require using only the most recent releases.

    Thanks for updating me on Wizards' sponsored events policies. Luckily, as a passive gamer, I don't have to worry too much about those. Now, as long as fifth edition doesn't get released with Wizards' secret edition ninjas that make customers burn all old source material, I won't whine too loud about what it might contain.
    Last edited by Glinthall; 2011-10-05 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by WitchSlayer View Post
    The next edition should be d100 based. Why? Because it's %edition! According to a lot of people, the current edition is $edition, the previous one was definitely #edition, I would even argue that the ones before that were @ and ! edition.
    And of course the one to follow %ed will be ^ed.

    You sir, have just won this thread. And a box of cookies.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikani View Post
    And of course the one to follow %ed will be ^ed.

    You sir, have just won this thread. And a box of cookies.
    Does that mean that *E will be a step backwards, since multiplication is lower on the totem pole then exponents? Followed by the massive leap forward to ( Edition?

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Does that mean that *E will be a step backwards, since multiplication is lower on the totem pole then exponents? Followed by the massive leap forward to ( Edition?
    Well after exponents you will need to simplify the game...

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinthall View Post
    Most of my Magic experience comes from pick up games at a scout summer camp when the strongest card anyone had was "Lord of the Pit" (7/7 flying trample). At that time, my friends were complaining about how fourth edition revised removed the burning pentagram from "Unholy Strength."
    These days it's mostly about internal consistency inside a set, which is one of the reasons they restrict cards in tourneys (the other of course being money). One set may have a bunch of artifacts and things that affect artifacts, while another may be tribal, with cards that boost "all goblins" and goblins being found in the green and red colors, for example. Noticing that decks were shifting to faster and faster play there was one experimental set brought out based around colossi, a lot of cheaper wall-like creatures (more toughness than strength) to hold off the enemy while you try to get enough mana to summon your game-ender before they do.

    I don't play but my best friend does, and when he starts digging into the theory behind a new set I can't get him to shut up. So some things above may be slightly inaccurate but they aren't intended to be.
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    I think the main effect of this rumor is that the folks on enworld are going to be occupied for weeks with happily predicting that 5th edition will involve WOTC admitting 4e was a mistake, and returning to D&D 3.5.

    They're kind of predictable that way.
    Last edited by Eric Tolle; 2011-10-08 at 11:17 AM.
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    I just very recently downgraded my opinion on 4e. I'm eagerly awaiting 5e.

    Don't get me wrong - I still love 4e, just not as much as I used to. But until WotC get's off their scrubbed and actually gives support to the classes that need it instead of giving yet another build to Wizards, I'm angry. Very angry. Seriously WotC, why in the world would you release new material as a Wizard when there were several other classes that you could have made the fluff fit? Even if it's not a class that's woefully under-supported, anything is better than giving Wizards and Fighters another build!
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    I just very recently downgraded my opinion on 4e. I'm eagerly awaiting 5e.

    Don't get me wrong - I still love 4e, just not as much as I used to. But until WotC get's off their scrubbed and actually gives support to the classes that need it instead of giving yet another build to Wizards, I'm angry. Very angry. Seriously WotC, why in the world would you release new material as a Wizard when there were several other classes that you could have made the fluff fit? Even if it's not a class that's woefully under-supported, anything is better than giving Wizards and Fighters another build!
    Saly one mistake I think wizards realized they made on 4e was that they made too many distinct classes that had no reason to be a distinct full class. Hence why the sub classes going around now. For instance the rune priest could have been a sub build of cleric. In addition to reducing class bloat this would have given str clerics more powers and runepriest more power to choose from. Seekers could have been added to rangers or druids (depending on who you think they would have made more sense). Sorcerers could have just been a wizard striker build and it could have been int/cha (cha based striker mechanic) and then they would have been better strikers and had even better support.

    Some classes could remain distinct such as most psionic classes, avengers (you could have made them into a divine monk but I don't think it is needed), warlocks, warlords, and the like but there are a number of classes that could have just as easily been subclasses and then we would not have a problem of trying to support so many similar classes with distinct support.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Tolle View Post
    I think the main effect of this rumor is that the folks on enworld are going to be occupied for weeks with happily predicting that 5th edition will involve WOTC admitting 4e was a mistake, and returning to D&D 3.5.

    They're kind of predictable that way.
    Well, wizards admiting that the previous edition was bad and a mistake is kind of their standard strategy to sell any revisions and new editions.
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    I don't know. I think there's a lot of incompetence involved (or rules changes where no one goes through the entire rule-set to see how it interacts).
    Many designers are usually more concerned with creating the next thing than in working out how things interact. They don't want to be told, "No, we're rejecting your idea for a songmangler class because any attempt to give it adequate feat and item support would simply break the bard and runepriest classes," and I can't say I blame them.

    Unfortunately, it means that the DM sometimes needs to step in and rule on whether or not hybrid classes or Dragon Magazine options are supported, banned, or required. In general, it's best for a DM to follow the KISS principle in such matters, even if the players chafe at being limited to more options than they could play in a lifetime.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26...ns_5th_Edition
    Found this obnoxious but obligatory.
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Platyvark View Post
    http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26...ns_5th_Edition
    Found this obnoxious but obligatory.
    http://www.gamegrene.com/node/971

    /tg/ did not invent that article. As an aside, the article is terrible because the writer had to include WoW because "haha 4e is WoW I'm so funny guys."
    Last edited by MagnusExultatio; 2011-10-09 at 01:16 PM.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    I like 4e but don't like Essentials. I'm already a grognard!
    Word. They nearly lost me with Essentials and these card packs are not helping situations.


    I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with the next edition, though.
    If current trends are any indicator, it will be 75% more card based.

    My question is... where do they go from 4e? Simpler? More complex?

    Man, I'll probably be griping in 20 years about how 4th edition was the best edition and that the game people are playing now is just a ripoff of whatever Blizzard's current cash cow is.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Asbestos View Post
    My question is... where do they go from 4e? Simpler? More complex?
    They're trying to reinvigorate the D&D mini battles game (using cards instead of dice), so that would be a reasonable guess.

    Above all, WOTC/Hasbro seems to want a game that sells accessories, be it dungeon tiles, miniatures, or collectible bonus cards.
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Asbestos View Post
    My question is... where do they go from 4e? Simpler? More complex?
    How about a streamlined game that gives more creative control to players and GMs and not playing like a tabletop wargame?

    But it's wizards we are talking about, they don't do such things.
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Here's to hoping 5E combat is like Tome of Battle, 5E magic is like Expanded Psionics, 5E skills is like Pathfinder, and 5E classes is like Pathfinder.

    The way 4E should have been.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    So it would be 3.5e?
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    So it would be 3.5e?


    Seriously, not exactly, but it is the general direction 3E was heading before they decided to abandon ship and start over with a whole new game system. While I'm ok with 3E magic, I acknowledge some people are outraged over it. 3E Psionics system does at least curtail some of the power. 4E does help improve combat, but Tome of Battle did it better.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    ...From all these threads, I'm starting to get the idea that W.O.T.C is really bad at their job...
    Last edited by Doorhandle; 2011-10-13 at 01:32 AM.
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    They're trying to reinvigorate the D&D mini battles game (using cards instead of dice), so that would be a reasonable guess.
    Oh, dude, do not remind me of that travesty. I downloaded the playtest rules and gave them a try and its just so dumbed down its ridiculous. No charging, no flanking, no status effects, no opportunity attacks, you need to tap a card to 'Sneak Attack', you deploy creatures and use cards using a 'gold' (aka mana) pool... Not remotely my thing.

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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    This is just too perfect. I only just learned how to get over hating 4e and realize that some people don't feel like waiting half an hour to finish a combat. I wonder how long it will take other people to adjust.

    (I dislike 4e because you get to prepare only a few at will/per encounter/per day abilities rather than the flexibility of psions or spell slots to prepare whatever the hell you want. I also dislike that the powers all follow a specific template whereas 3.5 spells or powers could do whatever you could write them up as doing. I do understand why some people like it though and have moved past trolling about why I hate it and just let them play their stuff while I play mine.)
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    Default Re: [Rumors?] D&D 4th edition fans will become the new grognards

    Quote Originally Posted by Doorhandle View Post
    ...From all these threads, I'm starting to get the idea that W.O.T.C is really bad at their job...
    yea…..I don't know the full history, but I'm guessing that WotC has only been making only screwup after screwup……making 3e, then updating to 3.5, then 4E not being good enough, then Essentials…. and now everyone is speaking of the THE GREAT 5E DOOM on the horizon.
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