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    Default Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Let's jump right into this premise: Our gaming group uses JaronK's Tier system when drawing up characters, including his suggestions for closing the power and versatility gap between Tiers. I'll describe our creation rules shortly, but the relevant bit is that we allow characters to Gestalt. Tier 6 is the designation for the commoner classes, found here, and although many class-role bases are covered, I feel they amount to 'half' classes. I'd like to see more, unique, interesting, creative, useful, funny, whateva' people come up with T6's, meant for Gestalting.

    So! Invent a T6. Please feel free to hack up existing classes into their T6 equivalent. For example, what would a T6 Barbarian look like? :D This is meant to be a fun exercise, but PEACH, PEACH, PEACH!

    Our Character Creation rules are as follows:

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    Classes are organized by Tier. The designated Tier affects character creation and advancement.

    1. Select a Class:
    Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard
    Tier 2: Sorcerer
    Tier 3: Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Ninja, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger, Summoner
    Tier 4: Alchemist, Barbarian, Cavalier, Rogue, Samurai
    Tier 5: Adept, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk
    Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior

    2. Stat-points by Tier:
    Tier 1: 20 Points
    Tier 2: 24 Points
    Tier 3: 28 Points
    Tier 4: 32 Points
    Tier 5: 36 Points
    Tier 6: 40 Points

    3. Rate of Advancement by Tier:
    Tier 1 advances at a Slow Rate, Tiers 2 and 3 advance at a Medium rate, Tiers 4 and 5 advance at a Fast rate. If characters are created at 6th level, this means that they begin with enough experience to have earned level 6 at a Medium rate (23,000 exp). If your rate is 'Slow' this would place you at level 5; if your rate is 'Fast,' this places you at level 7. Use the following chart to determine actual starting level:



    4. Gestalt Options by Tier:
    Gestalting changes the character's actual Tier Designation, which will reduce the number of Stat-points, and Rate of Advancement. Players are free to Optimize within a class by selecting archetypes or advanced feats, etc. to their heart's content without worrying about a Tier shift. Equally important, players are free to choose inferior class-options without benefit of a shift down the Tier scale.

    * Tier 1 may never Gestalt.
    * Tier 2 may Gestalt with a Tier 6 to become Tier 1.
    * Tier 3 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T2, or with a T5 to become T1.
    * Tier 4 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T3, with a T5 to become T2, or with a T4 to become T1.
    * Tier 5 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T4, with a T5 to become T3, with a T4 to become T2, or with a T3 to become T1.

    Gestalting changes the character's actual Tier Designation, which will reduce the number of Stat-points, and Rate of Advancement.


    A Few Guidelines:
    1. Few, but thematically appropriate Skills.
    2. If the T6 Class can cast spells, it should not earn more than 4 Skill-points per level.
    3. Typically T6 should have all Bad saves, generally no more than one Good save. If it has more than one Good save, a sacrifice should be made elsewhere.
    4. Special Abilities should probably be limited down thematically appropriate lines.
    5. Spell lists probably shouldn't be comprehensive, and shouldn't go above 5th level spells. Typically, the number of available slots should start in deficit (as in 0 per day, allowing only toons with high main-caster stats to cast at these levels).
    6. Inventive, useful, interesting, funny, or just plane awesome (as you see it) :)

    Caveat: Creations will feel less than T5 and so naturally we'll call them T6, but they may also have more versatility or power than the other T6's, and so they're not exactly T6 :) At this stage, its clear that our instincts are to round them up a Tier, or down. Please do as you wish in this case, as these aren't hard and fast rules, and for funsies they'll be T6-ish.

    --PC
    Last edited by Paulcynic; 2011-10-14 at 01:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    T6 Ranger:

    Ranger's class skills are Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

    Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.



    Armor and Weapon Proficiency: A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

    All listed Special Abilities are as described under the Ranger Class

    Spells: T6 Ranger Spells are as described under the Ranger Class, save his spell list is gimped:

    Level 1 Spells: Alarm, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Snares and Pits, Jump, Longstrider, Pass without Trace
    Level 2 Spells: Cure Light Wounds, Snare
    Level 3 Spells: Diminish Plants, Tree Shape (lul.. sorries)
    Level 4 Spells: Commune with Nature
    Last edited by Paulcynic; 2011-10-12 at 10:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Your ranger gets spells from the normal ranger list. That automatically means he's not Tier 6. The Tier 6 classes either have no class features at all, or have class features that are only useful in very rare cases at higher levels (CW Samurai vs fear-immune creatures).

    I've made some Commoner PrCs, but those are decidedly non-Tier 6 (though definitely not higher than Tier 4 either).
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Ah, was comparing the Ranger's spell list to the Adepts, which includes good spells up to 5th level, such as Baleful Polymorph. The Ranger's spells per day are gimped in the T6 version, and if you look at the entire class, he's basically a light spell caster and tracker. All bad saves, 3/4 BaB, and a massively gimped pet (no need to adjust that from the standard Ranger :P).

    As a T6 Gestalt option, he'd make a Monk or Fighter basically a T4, adding a bit of versatility. There again, how many Fighters are gonna pump their Wisdom to 13 to cast that 1st level spell before level 7? You're picking this up mostly for tracking and favored terrain :) We could do something similar with a T6 rogue version, introducing his Trap specials as the main reason to take it.

    Either way, ty for the PrC link :)

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    The Templeguard (Paladin Light)

    HD: d10
    Class Skills: Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot
    Skill Points: 2+Int

    BAB: Medium
    Good Saves: Fort

    Class Features:
    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Templeguard ist proficient with all simple weapons and the favorite weapon of his diety. He is proficient with light and medium armor and shields (except tower shields).

    Guardian: All Class Features, with exception of favored weapon focus, only work in in the vicinity of the Templeguards Temple. This is an area of 1 square mile per class level, which has to contain one or more holy places of the temple guards patron diety. (A holy place is any place under the effect of a hallow or unhallow spell cast by a cleric of the patron diety.) Should the temple lose his blessing, or if the temple guard voluntarily choses so, he loses the area. After one month without an area to guard, he can obtain a new area when praying at a different holy place for one week.
    The templeguardian must be of an alignment not further then one step away from his patron dieties and can't be true neutral unless his patron diety is so, too. (Like a cleric) Should the guardian ever obtain an unallowed alignment, fail to protect his temple or the faithfull and priests in it to the best of his abilities or grossly violate the dieties dogma, he loses his class features, except favored weapon focus and weapon and armor proficiencies, until he is the subject of an attonement spell.

    Guardians Valor: A Temple Guardian of level 1 gains a +1 morale bonus on weapon damage and saving throws against fear. This bonus rises to +2 at class level 5, and by 1 after every 5 levels after this (+3 at level 10, +4 at level 15, +5 at level 20).

    Favored Weapon Focus: At level 4, the temple guardian gains weapon focus for the favored weapon of his diety as a bonus feat. Should he already have this feat, he gains a bonus feat of his choice for which he meets the prerequisites.

    Divine Weapon: At level 6, the templeguard can infuse his weapon with the power of his diety as a standart action. Once per day, for 1 round per class level, the weapon obtains the holy, unholy, axciomatic or anarchic quality, if the enchantment matches the dieties alignment. (A chaotic good dieties temple guard would create a holy or anarchic weapon, a lawfull neutral would create an axciomatic weapon). If the patron diety is true neutral, the temple guard choses one of the enchantments when gaining this class feature. He can't change it afterwards.

    Shield Other: At level 8, once per day, the templeguard can cast shield other as a spelllike ability, with a caster level of half his class level, rounded down.

    Smite Infidel: At Level 12, the temple guard gains a smite attack, like the paladins. It is effective against the same alignment as his divine weapon. (if he creates a holy weapon, he smites evil, if he creates an unholy weapon, he smites good, and so on). He can use the smite attack once per day, twice at character level 16, thrice at character level 20.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Not to be rude (really, I'm serious), but why would anyone want to do this? Why make classes that are patently awful? It seems like a waste of time & effort to create a class that nobody would want to play, & no DM would want to use for an NPC.

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    Not to be rude (really, I'm serious), but why would anyone want to do this? Why make classes that are patently awful? It seems like a waste of time & effort to create a class that nobody would want to play, & no DM would want to use for an NPC.
    First paragraph of the first post explains it. He intends to gestalt them.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Well, you could emulate the dualclassing of 4th edition this way by taking two tier 6 classes as a gestalt build.
    Thanks for Zefir for the custom avatar.

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    It's explained in the opening post dude, the group this is for uses a gestalt creation system, and the creation of tier 6s like these is meant to aid a player in adding more flavour and versatility without too much more power.

    On that line I'd suggest some sort of 'Red Tape Official'. They'd have poor BAB, good will, all the charisma skills, sense motive, concentration, a smattering of knowledges (including nob&roy, beurocracy and/or law), profession and appraise, with 6 sp/lvl.
    Give them bardic knowledge at 1st, simple weapons and light armour only, and a few interaction based boni. Then a 1/day ability called 'Friends in high places' at 3rd which allows them to automatically succeed one diplomacy check a day by name dropping (additional uses every 5 levels). They would then gain a skill trick or skill focus for free at 5th, and every 3 levels thereafter.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulcynic View Post
    Ah, was comparing the Ranger's spell list to the Adepts, which includes good spells up to 5th level, such as Baleful Polymorph.
    Adepts are easily T4-5, guy. They definitely hit T4 with minor optimization. I know JaronK has them listed at 6, but that's just because he grouped all of the NPC classes together down there. Any form of spellcasting is really pretty amazing, and Adepts have some excellent spells to throw around.

    Your ranger is likewise T5, and with SotAO it hits T4.
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2011-10-12 at 08:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Hmm...

    Your Gestahlt rules. Consider them stolen for a project I may or may not work on...
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Adepts are easily T4-5, guy. They definitely hit T4 with minor optimization. I know JaronK has them listed at 6, but that's just because he grouped all of the NPC classes together down there. Any form of spellcasting is really pretty amazing, and Adepts have some excellent spells to throw around.

    Your ranger is likewise T5, and with SotAO it hits T4.
    Adept is listed as Tier 4. Expert is Tier 5.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    This makes me think....what tier would bloodlines be? That is, if only one was taken and treated as a class. Because those provide a tad more benefit than these, so I think.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Adept is listed as Tier 4. Expert is Tier 5.
    Oops. Just realized you're right, and that's from an older version of the list.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromancer999 View Post
    This makes me think....what tier would bloodlines be? That is, if only one was taken and treated as a class. Because those provide a tad more benefit than these, so I think.
    Bloodlines provide no hit points, no base attack bonus, no saving throw bonus, no skill points or class skills, and hardly anything else. If anything, taken as a class, a major Bloodline would be even weaker than a Commoner.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    T6 Spellcaster? Sure, let's give this a try.

    Rainbow Hypnotist
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    {TABLE]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Spells Known|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
    1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Color Spray|2|-|-|-
    2|+1|+0|+0|+3||3|-|-|-
    3|+1|+1|+1|+3||3|-|-|-
    4|+2|+1|+1|+4|Hypnotic Pattern|3|0|-|-
    5|+2|+1|+1|+4||3|1|-|-
    6|+3|+2|+2|+5||4|2|-|-
    7|+3|+2|+2|+5||4|2|-|-
    8|+4|+2|+2|+6||5|3|-|-
    9|+4|+3|+3|+6|Rainbow Pattern|5|3|0|-
    10|+5|+3|+3|+7||5|3|1|-
    11|+5|+3|+3|+7||5|4|2|-
    12|+6|+4|+4|+8||5|4|2|-
    13|+6|+4|+4|+8||6|4|3|-
    14|+7|+4|+4|+9|Scintillating Pattern|6|4|3|0
    15|+7|+5|+5|+9||6|4|3|1
    16|+8|+5|+5|+10||6|5|3|2
    17|+8|+5|+5|+10||6|5|4|2
    18|+9|+6|+6|+11||6|5|4|3
    19|+9|+6|+6|+11||6|5|4|3
    20|+10|+6|+6|+12||6|5|4|3
    [/TABLE]
    Hit Dice: d4
    Skill Points: 4 + Intelligence Bonus per level
    Class Skills: Autohypnosis, Concentration, Craft (any, taken seperately), Disguise, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Local), Perform, Search, Spellcraft

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rainbow Hypnotists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Rainbow Hypnotistsís gestures, which can cause their spells with somatic components to fail.

    Spells: A Rainbow Hypnotist is limited to what spells they can cast. Like a Sorcerer, they simply know their spells and do not need to prepare them ahead of time. Unlike a Sorcerer, they do not have a spell list to choose which spells to know; the spells they know are determined by their level.

    At 1st level, the Rainbow Hypnotist knows Color Spray as a first-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 4th level, they know Hypnotic Pattern as a second-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 9th level, they know Rainbow Pattern as a third-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 14th level, they know Scintillating Pattern as a fourth-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.

    Rainbow Hypnotists are arcane spellcasters, and suffer Arcane Spell Failure when attempting to cast in armor.

    To cast a spell, a Rainbow Hypnotist must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Rainbow Hypnotistís spell is 10 + the spell level + the Rainbow Hypnotistís Charisma modifier. The Rainbow Hypnotist gains additional spells per day for high Charisma.


    Sorry if the table looks bad; I'm not used to putting those things together.

    But yes, say hello to what is certainly a T6 spellcaster. Limited number of spells per day, a very limited spell list, spells which are useless against a large number of monsters, low DCs, no way to add additional spells to their spell list, and even Rainbow Servant won't help. (It adds to they class's spell list, but seeing as the class never chooses a spell from their spell list, that doesn't help much.) Oh, I am sure you could optimize Disguise into something useful, and a Hypnotist/Servant could use Cleric wands, but that's about it.

    I notice that it gets more spells per day than the Adept, but given the Adept's far superior spell selection, I don't think that helps out too much.
    Last edited by erikun; 2011-10-12 at 04:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    Rainbow Hypnotist
    An inspired design and elegant mechanics. Well done. My only concern is that Color Spray is pretty amazingly effective at low level and far from useless at high levels. Sure, the save DC will continue to be low, but there's heighten for that, and no matter what level you are it's always an area-of-effect save or be stunned for 1 round. That's never bad. Immune to Mind-Afflicting does shut it down, but still.

    Still... I like the mechanics of your T6 caster quite a lot. Nice job.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    At 1st level, the Rainbow Hypnotist knows Color Spray as a first-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 4th level, they know Hypnotic Pattern as a second-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 9th level, they know Rainbow Pattern as a second-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 14th level, they know Scintillating Pattern as a second-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.
    Why are all their spells second level? I'm assuming an amusing error :p

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangles View Post
    Why are all their spells second level? I'm assuming an amusing error :p
    Yes, thank you for catching that. After the second time of typing all that out, I was more inclined to just copy-paste the rest rather than re-typing everything. Corrected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    An inspired design and elegant mechanics. Well done. My only concern is that Color Spray is pretty amazingly effective at low level and far from useless at high levels. Sure, the save DC will continue to be low, but there's heighten for that, and no matter what level you are it's always an area-of-effect save or be stunned for 1 round. That's never bad. Immune to Mind-Afflicting does shut it down, but still.

    Still... I like the mechanics of your T6 caster quite a lot. Nice job.
    Thanks! And you are right, I did forget that Color Spray would still be so handy at higher levels. It is at least still a way they can remain useful in (some) combat situations, and next to the Commoner's Handle Animal and the Warrior's full BAB, it probably fits in pretty well.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    The Templeguard (Paladin Light)
    Probably a T5 even with its range restriction, but I'm thinking mostly in terms of a city-centric campaign :) I do like what you've done here, and can see a Monk/Templeguard as an awesome gestalt (more power when in his monastery).

    why would anyone want to do this?
    My girlfriend says the same thing about role playing...

    'Red Tape Official'
    Awesome, best parts of the bard without the headache of playing... a bard!

    Then a 1/day ability called 'Friends in high places' at 3rd which allows them to automatically succeed one diplomacy check a day by name dropping
    I lul'd and was intrigued all at the same time ;)

    Adepts are easily T4-5, guy.
    You are correct sir, went back and realized that I should rtfm :P I have nerfed his spell list considerably, to what would seem like a T6 list.

    Your Gestahlt rules. Consider them stolen for a project I may or may not work on...
    Glad to have paid this forward.

    This makes me think....what tier would bloodlines be?
    I encourage you to post a T6 Bloodline class :) An Infernal Bloodline class would be wicked.

    Rainbow Hypnotist
    I think... I think you're a genius. Well done :)

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    I've got no class to post (though I'm tossing around an idea for an even crappier monk), but let me critique your gestalt system:

    * Tier 1 may never Gestalt. Cool.
    * Tier 2 may Gestalt with a Tier 6 to become Tier 1. Lolwhut? Sorcerer//Warrior will never equal Wizard, no matter how much we may want it to. You'll need to gestalt this with a Tier 3-4 to make a Tier 1.
    * Tier 3 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T2, or with a T5 to become T1. Another lolwhut here. If you want Tier 2, Gestalt with Tier 3-4 (the lower end of that probably isn't neough). If you want Tier 1, Gestalt with a high Tier 3 (and that's also definitely not enough. You just get option paralysis)
    * Tier 4 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T3, with a T5 to become T2, or with a T4 to become T1. Ish. Tier 4 should gestalt with 4-5 to become Tier 3, and if you gestalt with Tier 3 you might reach Tier 2. You will never reach Tier 1 no matter how many Tier 4 classes you gestalt.
    * Tier 5 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T4, with a T5 to become T3, with a T4 to become T2, or with a T3 to become T1. 5//6 I can see making a Tier 4 class, but it would take 5//4 to make a Tier 3 class, not 5//5. A Tier 5 class will at least need to triple gestalt above itself to make a decent Tier 2, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a good gestalt with Tier 5 that brings you up to Batman and CoDzilla's level.

    Let me provide you with what I do believe is an OK (not very good) gestalt system.
    T2//T3 = T1
    T3//T3 = T2
    T4//T4 = T3 (ish... T4//T4//T5 is probably better)
    T5//T5 = T4
    T6//T6 = T5 (sometimes. Commoner will get you nowhere)

    Now, if you want to make a Tier 2 class starting with Tier 5, you just follow the progression:
    T5//T5//T4//T3 would be a proper gestalt for a Tier 5 class to Tier 2 power, so it seems. Of course, the greater the number of gestalt classes, the worse things can get screwed out of proportion (option paralysis or ridiculous optimization, etc.)

  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Ah, and I have a class here for you. The Worse Monk.

    Medium BAB, Good Ref, the AC Bonus and unarmed damage of a monk, and a Bonus Feat from the list of the 6 monk bonus feats starting at level 2 and every 4 levels thereafter.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Paulcynic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Lolwhut? Sorcerer//Warrior will never equal Wizard, no matter how much we may want it to.
    I'm not sure anything ever will. I recall JaronK stating that Wizards would go into their own Tier if it didn't make his system more complicated. Better to compare the final result to a Cleric or Druid (Pathfinder versions in our case), both powerful, but still inferior to a Wizard at the highest levels. And so to keep it simple, a Wizard ends up being T1, not T0.

    With that in mind, I agree that my Tier-increases are a relativistic system, based on a fairly arbitrary (though well-thought) Tier system. A copy of a copy of a copy... is not perfect. And in a way, its absolutely impossible to Gestalt and understand exactly which Tier it would go in, more than just to say "its gone up." When you have two classes as one, you can still only take a Standard or Full-round action on your turn, and in spite of the increased options at your disposal, you have to pick the right one. I've seen plenty of people screw it up with only one set of class abilities to worry over, like when our cleric pulsed Channel Energy for 3D6 when nobody needed healing, and none of the undead were even damaged yet; when he could have chosen to Consecrate the area and mitigate the source of their continued creation...

    And so the idea behind the Tier increases isn't raw power, but instead an improvement in useful versatility. I have a player who made a Two-handed Fighter Archetype under this system, character was level 7, while another chose to Gestalt a Fighter/Magus ending at T1 (5th level). They battled in some arenas for a best of 10 games, and they pretty much came out even (luck favored the Gestalt in the final round). There are plenty of bad Gestalts out there, which is why Optimizers get a rush of excitement when they've brewed up the perfect Twink, and no system can prevent awful choices in character design :)

    That being said, my players are generally more satisfied under our system as it is written. And so I'm looking for some new flavors for them to try, is all; like erikun's Rainbow Hypnotist :) Makes you smile and wonder at the possibilities in tandem.

    I'm currently working on a T6 Alchemist :) Thinking of how to preserve his Bomb mechanic; will post it soon.
    Last edited by Paulcynic; 2011-10-13 at 02:39 AM.
    Hey! You want to play something badass? Play my Necromancer.

    Does your pet lack "Shock and Awe?" Check out these Pet Prestige Classes.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ashtagon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Is it possible to have a T6 caster at all?

  25. - Top - End - #25
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    YouLostMe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    I do believe you may have missed what I was trying to communicate. While the example therein of Sorc//War =/= Wiz is something to think about, that applies for all of the Tier 2//Tier 6 combos. It's not that you can optimize and maybe come up with something, but that there is literally no way to optimize T2//T6 to make a T1. That's a big hole in the system that needs to be rectified, or else you may end up with players ironically making suboptimal decisions while thinking they are actually performing up to par (which is exactly what the existing Tier system was meant to stop).

    When it is more effective to play a Sorcerer than a Dread Necro//Warrior, and neither character gets faster advancement or a higher point buy, the system needs to be changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Is it possible to have a T6 caster at all?
    Look 8 posts above yours.
    Last edited by YouLostMe; 2011-10-13 at 02:52 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    It's nice to know I'm not the only one who adores gestalt. Currently GMing a triclass gestalt, where one character is a Warlock/Favored Soul/Bard and the other is a Rogue/Dragon Shaman/Sorcerer, with my NPC who pops in from time to time to give instructions (they're a scout team for a village of outcasts) being Monk/Rogue/Swashbuckler. It's a blast.

    As for tiers, just in case those class lineups didn't give it away, we don't put much attention into balancing them out at that point, although I did make some attempt to poke spellcasting onto both the PCs. We've never really had an issue with power, but then, none of us count as optimizers; we all focus very heavily on the RP aspects. We've gone as much as two sessions without entering a battle once.

    I really like the idea of this thread; it's giving me great ideas for mooks (of which my plot will require a large number of soon). My sad excuse of an attempt:

    Pickpocket
    Spoiler
    Show
    {TABLE=head]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
    1|
    +0
    |+0|+2|+0|1d6
    2|
    +1
    |+0|+3|+0|Trapfinding
    3|
    +2
    |+1|+3|+1|
    4|
    +3
    |+1|+4|+1|
    5|
    +3
    |+1|+4|+1|2d6
    6|
    +4
    |+2|+5|+2|
    7|
    +5
    |+2|+5|+2|
    8|
    +6/+1
    |+2|+6|+2|
    9|
    +6/+1
    |+3|+6|+3|
    10|
    +7/+2
    |+3|+7|+3|3d6
    11|
    +8/+3
    |+3|+7|+3|
    12|
    +9/+4
    |+4|+8|+4|
    13|
    +9/+4
    |+4|+8|+4|
    14|
    +10/+5
    |+4|+9|+4|
    15|
    +11/+6/+1
    |+5|+9|+5|4d6
    16|
    +12/+7/+2
    |+5|+10|+5|
    17|
    +12/+7/+2
    |+5|+10|+5|
    18|
    +13/+8/+3
    |+6|+11|+6|
    19|
    +14/+9/+4
    |+6|+11|+6|
    20|
    +15/+10/+5
    |+6|+12|+6|5d6[/TABLE]
    Hit Die: D6
    Skill Points: 4 + Int mod per level
    Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

    Proficiencies: Pickpockets are proficient with all simple weapons and light armor, but no shields.

    Sneak Attack: As the standard Rogue ability, only you gain damage at the indicated levels instead.

    Trapfinding: As the Rogue ability.


    Church Goer
    Spoiler
    Show
    {TABLE=head]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Spells Known|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
    1|
    +0
    |+2|+0|+0|Cure or Inflict Minor Wounds|2|-|-|-
    2|
    +1
    |+3|+0|+0||3|-|-|-
    3|
    +1
    |+3|+1|+1||3|-|-|-
    4|
    +2
    |+4|+1|+1|Cure or Inflict Light Wounds|3|0|-|-
    5|
    +2
    |+4|+1|+1||3|1|-|-
    6|
    +3
    |+5|+2|+2||4|2|-|-
    7|
    +3
    |+5|+2|+2||4|2|-|-
    8|
    +4
    |+6|+2|+2||5|3|-|-
    9|
    +4
    |+6|+3|+3|Cure or Inflict Moderate Wounds|5|3|0|-
    10|
    +5
    |+7|+3|+3||5|3|1|-
    11|
    +5
    |+7|+3|+3||5|4|2|-
    12|
    +6/+1
    |+8|+4|+4||5|4|2|-
    13|
    +6/+1
    |+8|+4|+4||6|4|3|-
    14|
    +7/+2
    |+9|+4|+4|Cure or Inflict Serious Wounds|6|4|3|0
    15|
    +7/+2
    |+9|+5|+5||6|4|3|1
    16|
    +8/+3
    |+10|+5|+5||6|5|3|2
    17|
    +8/+3
    |+10|+5|+5||6|5|4|2
    18|
    +9/+4
    |+11|+6|+6||6|5|4|3
    19|
    +9/+4
    |+11|+6|+6||6|5|4|3
    20|
    +10/+5
    |+12|+6|+6||6|5|4|3[/TABLE]
    Hit Die: D4
    Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
    Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

    Proficiencies: Church Goers are proficient with all simple weapons. They proficient with light armor, but not shield.

    Spells: A Church Goer is limited to what spells they can cast. Like a Sorcerer, they simply know their spells and do not need to prepare them ahead of time. Unlike a Sorcerer, they do not have a spell list to choose which spells to know; the spells they know are determined by their level.

    An evil Church Goer must take Inflict spells, and a good Church Goer must take Cure spells; neutral Church Goers must pick which they get, but once the choice is made it can never be changed. At 1st level, the Church Goer knows either Cure Minor Wounds or Inflict Minor Wounds as a first-level Church Goer spell. At 4th level, they know either Cure Light Wounds or Inflict Light Wounds as a second-level Church goer spell. At 9th level, they know either Cure Moderate Wounds or Inflict Moderate Wounds as a third-level Church Goer spell. At 14th level, they know either Cure Serious Wounds or Inflict Serious Wounds as a fourth-level Church Goer spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.

    To cast a spell, a Church must have a Wis score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Church Goerís spell is 10 + the spell level + the Church Goerís Wis modifier. The Church Goer gains additional spells per day for high Wis.


    Martial Initiate
    Spoiler
    Show
    {TABLE=head]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
    1|
    +0
    |+0|+2|+0|Improved Unarmed Strike
    2|
    +1
    |+0|+3|+0|Wis Mod to AC
    3|
    +2
    |+1|+3|+1|
    4|
    +3
    |+1|+4|+1|Unarmored AC Bonus +1
    5|
    +3
    |+1|+4|+1|
    6|
    +4
    |+2|+5|+2|Speed Boost +10 Feet
    7|
    +5
    |+2|+5|+2|Unarmed Damage Bonus +2
    8|
    +6/+1
    |+2|+6|+2|
    9|
    +6/+1
    |+3|+6|+3|Unarmored AC Bonus +2
    10|
    +7/+2
    |+3|+7|+3|
    11|
    +8/+3
    |+3|+7|+3|
    12|
    +9/+4
    |+4|+8|+4|Speed Boost +20 Feet
    13|
    +9/+4
    |+4|+8|+4|Unarmed Damage Bonus +4
    14|
    +10/+5
    |+4|+9|+4|Unarmored AC Bonus +3
    15|
    +11/+6/+1
    |+5|+9|+5|
    16|
    +12/+7/+2
    |+5|+10|+5|
    17|
    +12/+7/+2
    |+5|+10|+5|
    18|
    +13/+8/+3
    |+6|+11|+6|Speed Boost +30 Feet
    19|
    +14/+9/+4
    |+6|+11|+6|Unarmored AC Bonus +4
    20|
    +15/+10/+5
    |+6|+12|+6|Unarmed Damage Bonus +6[/TABLE]
    Hit Die: D6
    Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
    Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex)

    Proficiencies: Martial Initiates are proficient with the quarterstaff, the nunchaku and the kama. They gain no proficiencies in any armor or shields.

    Improved Unarmed Strike: A Martial Initiate gains this as a bonus feat at second level.

    Wisdom Modifier to AC: A Martial Initiate gains his Wis mod as a bonus to his AC while wearing no armor and carrying a light load. This bonus applies even if the Martial Initiate is flat footed or is subject to a touch attack. If he wears armor, carries a medium or heavy load, or is helpless, he does not gain this bonus.

    Unarmored AC Bonus: A Martial Initiate gains a bonus to his AC as listed at the appropriate level while wearing no armor and carrying a light load. This bonus applies even if the Martial Initiate is flat footed or is subject to a touch attack. If he wears armor, carries a medium or heavy load, or is helpless, he does not gain this bonus.

    Unarmed Damage Bonus: While fighting unarmed, a Martial Initiate deals extra damage as shown on the list at the appropriate levels.


    Holy Warrior
    Spoiler
    Show
    {TABLE=head]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
    1|
    +1
    |+2|+0|+0|Code of Conduct
    2|
    +2
    |+3|+0|+0|Detect Evil
    3|
    +3
    |+3|+1|+1|Smite Evil 1/Day
    4|
    +4
    |+4|+1|+1|
    5|
    +5
    |+4|+1|+1|
    6|
    +6/+1
    |+5|+2|+2|Lay On Hands
    7|
    +7/+2
    |+5|+2|+2|
    8|
    +8/+3
    |+6|+2|+2|Smite Evil 2/Day
    9|
    +9/+4
    |+6|+3|+3|
    10|
    +10/+5
    |+7|+3|+3|Divine Health
    11|
    +11/+6/+1
    |+7|+3|+3|
    12|
    +12/+7/+2
    |+8|+4|+4|
    13|
    +13/+8/+3
    |+8|+4|+4|Smite Evil 3/Day
    14|
    +14/+9/+4
    |+9|+4|+4|Divine Grace
    15|
    +15/+10/+5
    |+9|+5|+5|
    16|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |+10|+5|+5|
    17|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |+10|+5|+5|
    18|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |+11|+6|+6|Smite Evil 4/Day
    19|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |+11|+6|+6|
    20|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |+12|+6|+6|[/TABLE]
    Hit Die: D8
    Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
    Class Skills: Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

    Proficiencies: Holy Warriors are proficient with all simple weapons, the longsword and the lance. They are proficient with light armor and medium armor, and with light shields.

    Code of Conduct, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Lay On Hands, Divine Health, Divine Grace: As the Paladin abilities of the same name.


    Caller
    Spoiler
    Show
    {TABLE=head]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Spells Known|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
    1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Summon Monster I|0|-|-|-
    2|+1|+0|+0|+3||1|-|-|-
    3|+1|+1|+1|+3||1|-|-|-
    4|+2|+1|+1|+4||1|-|-|-
    5|+2|+1|+1|+4|Summon Monster II|2|0|-|-
    6|+3|+2|+2|+5||2|1|-|-
    7|+3|+2|+2|+5||2|1|-|-
    8|+4|+2|+2|+6||3|1|-|-
    9|+4|+3|+3|+6|Summon Monster III|3|2|0|-
    10|+5|+3|+3|+7||3|2|1|-
    11|+5|+3|+3|+7||4|2|1|-
    12|+6|+4|+4|+8||4|3|1|-
    13|+6|+4|+4|+8|Summon Monster IV|4|3|2|0
    14|+7|+4|+4|+9||4|3|2|1
    15|+7|+5|+5|+9||4|4|2|1
    16|+8|+5|+5|+10||4|4|3|1
    17|+8|+5|+5|+10||4|4|3|2
    18|+9|+6|+6|+11||4|4|3|2
    19|+9|+6|+6|+11||4|4|4|2
    20|+10|+6|+6|+12||4|4|4|3[/TABLE]
    Hit Dice: d4
    Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
    Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Callers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Callerís gestures, which can cause their spells with somatic components to fail.

    Spells: A Caller is limited to what spells they can cast. Like a Sorcerer, they simply know their spells and do not need to prepare them ahead of time. Unlike a Sorcerer, they do not have a spell list to choose which spells to know; the spells they know are determined by their level.

    At 1st level, the Caller knows Summon Monster I as a first-level Caller spell. At 5th level, they know Summon Monster II as a second-level Caller spell. At 9th level, they know Summon Monster III as a third-level Caller spell. At 13th level, they know Summon Monster IV as a fourth-level Caller spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.

    Callers are arcane spellcasters, and suffer Arcane Spell Failure when attempting to cast in armor.

    To cast a spell, a Caller must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Caller gains additional spells per day for high Intelligence; in spaces where it reads 0 spells per day of that level, they only have spells if they get bonus spells for high Intelligence.


    Elementalist
    Spoiler
    Show
    {TABLE=head]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Powers Known|Power Points/Day
    1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Energy Ray|1
    2|+1|+0|+0|+3||2
    3|+1|+1|+1|+3||3
    4|+2|+1|+1|+4||4
    5|+2|+1|+1|+4||5
    6|+3|+2|+2|+5|Energy Push|6
    7|+3|+2|+2|+5||7
    8|+4|+2|+2|+6||8
    9|+4|+3|+3|+6||9
    10|+5|+3|+3|+7||10
    11|+5|+3|+3|+7||11
    12|+6|+4|+4|+8|Energy Missile|12
    13|+6|+4|+4|+8||13
    14|+7|+4|+4|+9||14
    15|+7|+5|+5|+9||15
    16|+8|+5|+5|+10||16
    17|+8|+5|+5|+10||17
    18|+9|+6|+6|+11|Energy Burst|18
    19|+9|+6|+6|+11||19
    20|+10|+6|+6|+12||20[/TABLE]
    Hit Dice: d4
    Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
    Class Skills: Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Psicraft (Int)

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Elementalists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor does not, however, interfere with the use of his power manifestation.

    Powers: An Elementalist is limited to what powers they can manifest. An Elementalistís ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available, one point per level.

    The powers he can manifest are determined by his level. At 1st level, the Elementalist knows Energy Ray as a first-level Elementalist power. At 6th level, they know Energy Push as a second-level Elementalist power. At 12th level, they know Energy Missile as a third-level Elementalist power. At 18th level, they know Energy Burst as a fourth-level Elementalist power. They do not learn any other powers, and those four powers compose the class's full power list.

    To manifest a power, an Elementalist must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the powerís level. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against an Elementalist's powers is 10 + the powerís level + the Elementalistís Intelligence modifier.

    An Elementalist's manifester level goes up slowly, once every odd level (1 at 1st, 2 at third, et cetra).


    Savage
    Spoiler
    Show
    {TABLE=head]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
    1|
    +1
    |+2|+0|+0|Illiteracy
    2|
    +2
    |+3|+0|+0|Rage 1/day
    3|
    +3
    |+3|+1|+1|
    4|
    +4
    |+4|+1|+1|Fast Movement
    5|
    +5
    |+4|+1|+1|
    6|
    +6/+1
    |+5|+2|+2|Rage 2/day
    7|
    +7/+2
    |+5|+2|+2|
    8|
    +8/+3
    |+6|+2|+2|
    9|
    +9/+4
    |+6|+3|+3|
    10|
    +10/+5
    |+7|+3|+3|Rage 3/day
    11|
    +11/+6/+1
    |+7|+3|+3|Damage Reduction 1/-
    12|
    +12/+7/+2
    |+8|+4|+4|
    13|
    +13/+8/+3
    |+8|+4|+4|
    14|
    +14/+9/+4
    |+9|+4|+4|Rage 4/day
    15|
    +15/+10/+5
    |+9|+5|+5|
    16|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |+10|+5|+5|Damage Reduction 2/-
    17|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |+10|+5|+5|
    18|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |+11|+6|+6|Rage 5/day
    19|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |+11|+6|+6|
    20|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |+12|+6|+6|[/TABLE]
    Hit Die: D10
    Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
    Class Skills: Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

    Proficiencies: Savages are proficient with all simple weapons, the handaxe, the warhammer, the greataxe and the greatclub. They are proficient with light armor and with light shields.

    Illiteracy, Rage, Fast Movement, Damage Reduction: As the Barbarian class abilities of the same name.


    Let the record hereby state that I hate making tables.

    Hope you all like these!
    Last edited by Noctis Vigil; 2011-11-19 at 02:59 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Arse end of nowhere, UK
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Let the record hereby state that I hate making tables.
    Do what I do, make a txt file with the basic table layout already entered, but no values. Then you can just copy/paste and fill in. A damned sight easier, believe me!
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Just out of interest Paulcynic, are you playing with Pathfinder material only, or is this system meant for a PF/3.5 full splat game?

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Hm. This is actually turning out really well, and I could see all these classes having a use in both a game and a setting. I especially like the spellcasters and the Lesser Rogue.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    I do believe you may have missed what I was trying to communicate.
    My apologies for my answer being so wordy, I agree with you that nothing will equal a Wizard, which you are defining as quintessential T1. The point that I made is that a T2 that gets a little more diversity isn't exactly a T2 any longer, and so I'm rounding fractions *up*. And so a Sorc/War is greater than just a Sorc in versatility (remember that the Tier system isn't about raw power, its about over-all contribution, with effectiveness being a factor). And so he is now "one tier higher" which happens to be T1.

    are you playing with Pathfinder material only
    My group plays with Pathfinder material almost exclusively, but we also play with custom material inspired by other RPGs, even those outside of 3.x :) Please feel free to drop any concept in here, so long as it amounts to a 3.x T6 class (or pretty close to one).

    My sad excuse of an attempt:
    I love how clean your T6 rogue is :) I would only change a couple of things, give him all bad saves, and slim his Skills per level down to 4+Int, maybe slice off a few class skills as well. Only reason is that he's currently more effective than the Expert by a bunch.

    OR :)

    We can treat him as the new Definition of T6. I'll leave that up to individual readers, of course :P Same with the Lesser Cleric, a bit higher than T6, but not really up to snuff with T5, so each reader should choose to round these up or down the Tier tree :)

    In fact, I'll amend my OP to include this caveat.

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