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2011-10-16, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
I didn't want the spell to harm allies, so I was going to add that the master could shift the square away from his allies by taking a penalty of some kind. Or is that to OP?
Otherwise, that makes sense. Less complicated than I was thinking.
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2011-10-16, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
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2011-10-16, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Here is what I have.
Spell Deflection (Su) At 8 level when a Shield Master is the subject of a ranged touch attack spell, he can make a melee attack at his highest BAB as a immediate action against the casters opposing attack X times per encounter, where X is his Class level/4. The Shield Masters attack roll becomes his new AC. If the caster misses, the spell does not effect the Shield Master and is deflected off his shield to a square two squares away. To determine which square, roll a d20. If the result is over 16, the spell dissipated. Otherwise, the spell hits the square corresponding to the number rolled. The numbers start directly north of the PC and ascend in a clockwise order. By taking a -4 penalty to the attack the Shield Master can ensure that the spell does not hit an ally. If the spell does when deflected, it instead dissipated.
Spell Reflection (Su) at 15th level the Shield Master can reflect spells upon their caster, instead of deflecting them y times per day, where y is Class level/5. If the Shield master successfully deflects a spell he can instead choose to reflect it by making a ranged touch attack against the caster.
A bit wordy, but it should work. Let me know if I have left anything out.
I also thought about this.
SpoilerShield Bastion of Spells (Su) When the Shield master is the subject of a spell that is a damaging, ranged area attack he may raise his shield and resist some the effects of the spell. This ability functions like Evasion in all other aspects.
Not sure how well balanced/flavorful it is.
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2011-10-16, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Added the listed abilities at the listed levels. Thank you for your suggestion.
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2011-10-16, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Complete Warrior, page 66, PrC Occult Slayer, class ability Mind Over Magic: "Starting at 2nd level, an Occult Slayer can cause a spell or spell-like ability targeted against her to rebound onto the originator as a free action. This ability otherwise functions as the spell turning spell (caster level equals the character's Occult Slayer level + 5). An Occult Slayer can use this ability once per day at 2nd level and twice per day at 4th level."
Also, you should give the class Improved Buckler Defense (a feat from Complete Warrior, page 100) early on; it's not incredibly useful in the long run, but it does give a little more support to bucklers.
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2011-10-16, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Maybe someone has suggested this before, but with all of the different shield abilities relying on different feats and things, perhaps a skill tree would be in order?
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2011-10-16, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
A skill tree? What did you have in mind?
And why would I give Improved Buckler Defense? The class is incapable of wielding weapons other than shields. If you're wielding a buckler as a weapon, you don't lose its bonus to AC because you have Improved Shield Bash. If you're dual-wielding heavy shields, you don't gain a bonus to your AC from any bucklers anyway.Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-16 at 08:33 PM.
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2011-10-16, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
I enjoy the cool conpet of this class but, I have to admit that it confuses the heck out of me. I thought at first ' oh cool a way to mae a weapon+sheidl user worthwhile' but then i read teh abilities and to me at leats its like a paladin whos diety is his sheild or a Diety of Shields? so for me it has this uncomfrtable attachment to divine from a mostly pureley martial skeleton,
i think with that for me atleast it fits better as a 10-level prestige class. meant for more defnsive minded paladins. or melee/cleric hybrids?
It is probably my own preferences here saying the above, so I apologize for that.
you have soem pretty cool idea neo seraphi :)
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2011-10-16, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
It's a warrior whose life is being interfered with without his knowledge or will by a god who channels divine power through the warrior's shield.
Unlike a cleric or a paladin, this class has no religious overtones. The god literally is just bored, he doesn't require any worshipping.
i think with that for me atleast it fits better as a 10-level prestige class. meant for more defnsive minded paladins. or melee/cleric hybrids?
It is probably my own preferences here saying the above, so I apologize for that.
you have soem pretty cool idea neo seraphi :)
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2011-10-16, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
:) K I'll take it like that. it a nice thing, though Ihave to admit it saddens me that people have to homebrew thinsg that should have been included in core. I mean. aren';t such figures liek Legolas and his mastery of the Bow, SIr galahad and his super Paladinness like perfect examples of iconinc roles in fantasy?
dang WOtC had to mess that up IMO...
anywyas, please take a look at tell me your thoughts on my Battle Mage (warmage re-tooling) heres teh Link
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219065
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2011-10-16, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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- lost in my own mind
Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
If you don't like the divine-ness, it would be fairly easy to rewrite as innate channeled power. Or if you really like the divine-ness, it would be just as easy to make the power come from the deity of your choice.
As for where my suggestion came from about bucklers, it was about the two weapon shield thing; I don't see where any of the feats granted let you keep your AC on your shield when you attack with it, but maybe I just missed it. Certainly wouldn't be the first time, and I doubt it will be the last.
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2011-10-16, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Er...it's the very first one.
Improved Shield Bash
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2011-10-16, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
May I ask what the intended balance point of this class was?
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2011-10-16, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
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2011-10-17, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Hmm... then I think you probably hit it, though probably towards the lower (i.e. nearer Tier 5) end of the spectrum. I mean, it's got a lot of features, but most are kinda meh feats and there's a lot of basic passive stuff in there.
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2011-10-17, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
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2011-10-17, 01:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
You know what.. I coudl give it some of those shield counter maneuvers from the ToB, still focuses on 1 thing (using your hseidl) but they woudl allow himt o do some new stuff without taking him into 'tier' 3 area. i think moving him up to mid tier 4 IMO.
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2011-10-17, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
There are indeed two very nice shield counter maneuvers from the Devoted Spirit Discipline that would help stabilize his position in the center of Tier 4. I chose not to include them because they involved protecting allies and yourself, but it would be a simple task to simply grant those instead of the Shield of Vitality abilities.
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2011-10-17, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
There's no rule that every homebrew class has to match with every variant.
By that logic, WotC gave the wizard all-powerful spells, reasoning that as long as the spellbook could be stolen or sundered, they would still be beatable.
2. A spellbook doesn't have to be placed in a sunderable/disarmable position in order to be effective. A shield does.
3. Spells are offensively as well as defensively powerful, so the existence of a way to remove them isn't such a good balancer (plus, they can help protect the spellbook.) What I suggested is only giving the shield master high defensive bonuses, and nothing that will make it impossible to deprive him of his shield.
Players hate it when their gear is destroyed or stolen.
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2011-10-17, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Yeah, but I agree with this particular variant. If you're using a shield, it either blocks the attack, or it doesn't. It can't soften the blow for you like armor can.
1. A wizard who's lost his spellbook still has his spells that he memorized this morning. A fighter-type who's lost his shield has no shield.
2. A spellbook doesn't have to be placed in a sunderable/disarmable position in order to be effective. A shield does.
3. Spells are offensively as well as defensively powerful, so the existence of a way to remove them isn't such a good balancer (plus, they can help protect the spellbook.) What I suggested is only giving the shield master high defensive bonuses, and nothing that will make it impossible to deprive him of his shield.
That's why I said it would be necessary to fix the sunder rules, so it can be disabled without being destroyed. (Stolen is not a concern, as disarming generally happens in combat, and if you win the combat you get the item back.)
If a player is playing at a table where his gear is getting Sundered, he needs to stock extra gear. There is no reason for this class to grant bonuses against Sundering (The Aegis does not possess a specific shield, he only channels his energy through the shield that the shield master is currently holding, and only to empower the shield master himself)
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2011-10-17, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
I wasn't so much thinking "soften" as "deflect into a less sensitive spot". Not something that everyone can do, but a Shield Master...
Right there. See, I make my classes based on experience, and my experience is "The DM is not a jerk". Sundering is not something that ever happens at my table, even when it became very, very necessary. (A player was using his Item Familiar longbow to optimize his Spellcraft for Persistent Incantatrix cheese and the DM still wouldn't take his bow away)
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2011-10-17, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Well, alright. What do you suggest for a DR progression then?
That's because Sundering is so extreme because it permanently destroys an item. I expect that in Pathfinder (where it does not work that way, and is an example of the sort of "fix" I was talking about) sundering happens quite a bit more frequently.
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2011-10-17, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-10-17, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
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2011-10-17, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Sunder a player's mundane sword, or an archer's quiver. But if you're going to go after something that the entire class is based around, whether it's a holy symbol or a weapon or a shield that is the basis for all your power, you're just going to upset your players and screw up their WBL.
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2011-10-17, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
Is it actually possible to go a whole extended campaign without deviating from WBL any? Cuz I've never seen it happen.
Anyways, Sunder works fine; this is why spells like Mending and Repair exist, is to fix broken objects. Unless Sunder is supposed to remove all magic from an item upon breaking? Easy fix there is to make a new spell that repairs the enchantment as well. Problem solved, and it only took one spell slot. I honestly don't see why Sunder is so disliked, other than the fact that it's an inconvenience. I mean, disarm is just as annoying; a Rogue can steal a Cleric's holy symbol just as easily as a trained Fighter can smash it.
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2011-10-17, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
And what happens if you are in a group without a person who can cast mending or repair? Not every group has a caster, not every campaign has magic period.
Your solution is probably "Hire someone to cast it". That would require the entire group turning around and heading back to nearest city, interrupting whatever quest they were on, and the whole way back, the fighter or shield master is useless in combat. It's kind of like when Izumi lost her Human Spirit in Digimon Frontier for like ten episodes, only with much less chance for character development and all the annoyance of sitting on the sidelines playing cheerleader/damsel in distress.
And now you're probably thinking "Well okay, in that situation the DM certainly wouldn't bother Sundering". And I stop you there. If you can ever think of a situation where a mechanic would just ruin the entire game for everyone, especially one player in particular, you as a DM shouldn't employ that tactic.Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-17 at 08:57 PM.
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2011-10-17, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
I'd say allow him to turn points of shield AC into DR at a 2-for-1 rate (or 3-for-1 if you're looking for a powerful class), up to a maximum DR equal to his class level. Maybe make it not work when he loses his DEX bonus to AC, so as to give another way to get around it.
Well, my game is 3.5, this class is 3.5, Sunder doesn't happen in 3.5.
In a magicless campaign, that is more of an issue, but even so, it can be made into a new use for the Craft skill.
Your solution is probably "Hire someone to cast it". That would require the entire group turning around and heading back to nearest city, interrupting whatever quest they were on, and the whole way back, the fighter or shield master is useless in combat.
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2011-10-17, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
okay
No; he can easily have a backup. It wouldn't be enchanted, so it's not something he'd want to use long-term, but just until he gets a chance to fix his main one it could be ok.
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2011-10-17, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shield Master (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)
This logic would keep me from allowing Wizards, Clerics, liches, the Tarrasque, and PC deaths in my games, just to name a few off the top of my head.
Seriously, if your Fighter doesn't have a backup blade in case of emergency breakage and the Cleric has no backup holy symbol in case of daring Rogues with high ranks in Slight of Hand, that's the player's own fault, and by extension the GM's fault for not poking him about it (or at least for making a hidden check to see if his character thought he might need one (a simple Int check)). Besides, if the battle is so heated his weapon is Sundered and he has no backup, PC death is fairly unavoidable unless you took Improved Unarmed Strike.
The only time Sunder is unforgivable is if you didn't let your players know it was a possibility before hand. If you told them it could happen and they didn't prepare, their character's death and/or damsel-in-distress state is their own fault. All my players know that their weapons can be sundered (and no, I won't stop making sunder attempts just because I broke the first weapon or you have no Mending prepared for the day); combat is there to kill either the PCs or the NPC monsters, and dirty tactics like weapon breaking is perfectly acceptable on both sides.
Of course, this is also coming from someone who generally only throws a set of baddies at the PCs once every day or two at most (my campaigns are very heavy on the RP side of things, usually at the player's request), so a broken sword is far less of a problem than it would be if you had 3 fights a day.