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    Default The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    The Charlatan

    "What's your name?" "Smith! Or Smithy, if you like." "What's your purpose in Port Royal, Mr. Smith?" "Yeah, and no lies!" "Well then, I confess. It is my intention to commandeer one of these vessels, pick up a crew in Tortuga, raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weaselly black guts out." "I said 'no lies'!" "I think he's telling us the truth." "If he was telling the truth, he wouldn't have told us!" "Unless of course, he knew you wouldn't believe the truth, even if he told it to you."- Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Carribean: The Curse of the Black Pearl


    A charlatan is a masterful deceiver. He takes lying to a whole other level. No one can match a charlatan's silver tongue. Charlatans are often rogues or bards who decided that being sneaky or diplomatic wasn't as much fun as looking their enemy straight in the eye and telling him his shoes were untied, and then having him look down despite being an ogre who couldn't wear shoes.

    Prerequisites:

    In order to become a charlatan you must meet the following prerequisites:

    Skills: Bluff 10 ranks, Sense Motive 10 ranks
    Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Persuasive, Skill Focus (Bluff)

    Hit Dice: d6

    Class Skills: The charlatan's class skills are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Skill Points: 8+Int per level

    The Charlatan
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Would I Lie to You?, Did You Hear That?

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Stop Embarrassing Yourself!, It Won't Happen Again!

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Dagger? What Dagger?, Sneak Attack +1d6|

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Better Watch Out!, Bluffing Expertise|

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Behind You!, Is That a Banana Peel?|

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Silver Tongue, Sneak Attack +2d6|

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |You're Not That Tough!

    8th|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |You Got This Bro!

    9th|
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |What are You Talking About?, Sneak Attack +3d6

    10th|
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Who are You Going to Believe?
    [/table]

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A charlatan gains proficiency with the dagger, kukri, longsword, rapier, and scimitar, as well as with light armor.

    Would I Lie to You? (Ex): A charlatan's persuasive nature is legendary. His entire demeanor makes you want to trust him, no matter how many times he has wronged you in the past. The charlatan emits an aura of sincerity. All creatures within 30 feet of him who can see and hear him (allies and enemies) take a penalty to their Sense Motive checks made against him equal to his class level.

    Did You Hear That? (Ex): A charlatan is able to lie to his friends and drive them into an anger. By making a Bluff check (DC 10+ally's HD) he can force the ally to rage as a barbarian of his ally's HD. This ability lasts for 3+the ally's new Con modifier rounds. The ally is not fatigued at the end of it.

    A charlatan may only enrage one creature at a time. A charlatan may only use this ability once per encounter.

    Stop Embarrassing Yourself! (Ex): A charlatan can actually pretend to be a connoisseur of the mystic arts and correct others who attempt to do it. As an immediate action, a charlatan can interrupt a spellcaster who is attempting to cast a spell. This requires that charlatan be within 60 ft of the spellcaster, and they both must be able to see and hear one another. They must also share a language. The charlatan makes a Bluff check (DC 15+spell level) to convince the spellcaster that he is casting the spell incorrectly and then makes up some crap and says that's how the caster does it.

    The spellcaster is then forced to make a Sense Motive check (DC 15+the level of the spell he is attempting to cast, as if it was a Concentration check made to cast defensively). If he fails that check, he agrees with the charlatan and attempts to cast the way the charlatan instructed. He fails the spell, wastes the action and loses a spell slot of the level of the spell he was trying to cast.

    Optional:
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    Only use this if you and your DM both have a sense of humor.

    Because the charlatan has no clue what he's talking about, there is a 10% chance that the incantation and somatic components he described might actually be from some other, random spell. Every time the charlatan successfully Bluffs the spellcaster into trying it his way, roll a percentile dice. If it is 10 or lower, the spellcaster instead casts a different, random spell than the one he had prepared, chosen by the DM. The spellcaster must still be able to cast that spell (high enough level, appropriate casting score, etc)


    It Won't Happen Again! (Ex): A charlatan may be caught in a lie once, but he can pick himself back up and shrug it off with a smile, and still appear innocent. Starting at 2nd level, when a creature succeeds its Sense Motive check against the charlatan's Bluff check, the charlatan can make a second Bluff check at an immediate action to attempt to convince the target that he was simply misinformed or had a slip of the tongue. The target makes a second Sense Motive check, and receives a +5 bonus to it, but if the charlatan wins the check, the creature accepts that it was a mistake and does not feel any misgivings towards the charlatan for his original Bluff check.

    Dagger? What Dagger? (Ex): A charlatan's words are so convincing that he is able to make anything sound true, even if the person he's talking to has irrefutable proof. Starting at 3rd level, a charlatan may make a Bluff check to convince a target that an event did not actually occur or an item is not actually present. The target makes a Sense Motive check with a +10 bonus to resist, and if it fails, the charlatan convinces him that something did not actually happen, as if he had cast the modify memory spell, but as an extraordinary ability.

    Alternatively, a charlatan can make something incriminating or threatening go away, such as claiming that the guard is not actually holding a sword at his throat, or that he is not really pointing a crossbow at anyone. If the creature fails it Sense Motive check (with the same modifiers as above) the item in question is treated as being invisible and has its scent, feel, and sound completely masked to the creature that the charlatan Bluffed. (If the creature is damaged in any way, such as by touching the blade of a weapon he thought he was holding and pricking his finger, this effect immediately ends)

    Sneak Attack (Ex): A charlatan who is able to catch his opponent off-guard is able to deal extra damage. See the rogue class feature of the same name in the PHB. The charlatan's sneak attack damage increases at 6th and 9th level. If he has multiple sources of sneak attack or other precision damage, they all stack, assuming all conditions for each attack are met simultaneously.

    Better Watch Out! (Ex): A 4th level charlatan is so comfortable and sure of his own skills that he exudes a confidence similar to a trained warrior. Starting at level 4, a charlatan may make a Bluff check as part of his full attack action. The creature he is fighting makes an opposed Sense Motive check with a bonus equal to its Base Attack Bonus. If the charlatan succeeds on the check, he convinces the creature that he struck a deadly blow. The creature spends the next round acting as if it was staggered, as the disable psionic power (no save).

    A consecutive use of this ability convinces the creature it is mortally wounded. The creature will use any and all healing magic it has, attempting to restore its hit points to maximum. (A level 30 cleric with the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat that the charlatan struck for 2 points of damage would cast a quickened maximized empowered greater harm spell on himself, followed by a maximized empowered greater harm spell, if he was able to do so)

    If the creature is unable to use any kind of healing, it is instead convinced that the charlatan is far too powerful for it to handle. It will seek to engage the charlatan's allies whenever possible and will cower during any turn the charlatan threatens it. This lasts until either the creature is healed by powerful magic or until the end of the encounter.

    Bluffing Expertise (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a charlatan receives a bonus to his Bluff checks equal to his class level, and can always take 10 on Bluff checks, even when threatened or under duress.

    Behind You! (Ex): A 5th level charlatan can make a Bluff check to Feint in Combat as a free action. If he does so, his opponent receives a +10 bonus on its Sense Motive check to resist the feint, but it takes a -2 penalty to its Sense Motive check to resist the feint for every time its been feinted this round. (This penalty is cumulative)

    The charlatan may only feint once per attack action. (He must attempt to feint, then attack before he attempts to feint again)

    Is That a Banana Peel? (Ex): A 5th level charlatan may feign surprise and shout a false warning at a creature. If the creature adheres to the warning, it might lose its balance.

    As an immediate action, a charlatan may call out to a creature who is currently moving, with all its legs touching the ground. The charlatan makes a Bluff check, opposed by the creature's Sense Motive check. The creature gets automatic bonuses to resist Trip checks added to the Sense Motive check, such as Size bonuses or penalties, or the +4 bonus from having four or more legs.

    A creature does not receive bonuses to Trip checks that come from skill or weapons on its Sense Motive check, such as the bonus from the Improved Trip feat or from wielding a spiked chain.

    A creature who wins the opposed Sense Motive check is immune to Is That a Banana Peel for the next 24 hours.

    A creature who is charging takes a -4 penalty on its Sense Motive check to resist falling due to the momentum of its movement.

    A charlatan must wait 3 rounds after using this ability before he is able to use it again.

    Silver Tongue (Ex): A 6th level charlatan's words are poison that seep into his target's mind. Starting at 6th level, the charlatan can spend a full-round action attempting to convince a target that is indifferent or better towards him that they are actually long lost friends. This ability works like charm monster but as an extraordinary effect. (To do this, he makes a Bluff check, and the target opposes it with a Sense Motive check)

    The charlatan needs to avoid slipping up in order to keep up the ruse, and must make a Bluff check every five minutes that they are together and actively conversing (if they are silent, or at least not talking directly with one another, he need not continue his cover story)

    A single failure ends the effect and the creature in question becomes permanently immune to this ability from this specific charlatan.

    You're Not That Tough! (Ex): The charlatan's words can cut like knives and make creatures who were once proud of their formidable might doubt themselves to the point that they are unable to even swing their swords.

    As a full-round action, a charlatan may make pedantic remarks about how terrible a creature's technique is. The creature must make a Sense Motive check opposed by the charlatan's Bluff check. The creature receives a bonus on its Sense Motive check equal to its Base Attack Bonus.

    If the creature fails its Sense Motive check, it becomes convinced that it is a terrible warrior. The creature's Base Attack Bonus is treated as if it had the poor progression, regardless of its actual BAB. The creature loses access to feats and prestige classes that it no longer qualifies for and calculates its iterative attacks based on the new Base Attack Bonus. This ability lasts until either the end of the encounter or until the creature itself knocks the charlatan unconscious or kills him. (He gets his confidence back)

    For example: Jack is fighting a barbarian 9/frenzied berserker 2. He uses this class feature and successfully Bluffs his opponent. The creature's Base Attack Bonus becomes +5. It no longer qualifies for the frenzied berserker class and loses all its class features, as well as no longer having access to the Shock Trooper feat it was using. It only gets one attack as part of a full-round action rather than 3.

    You Got This Bro! (Ex): Who says that you only lie to the people who you're fighting against? As a full-round action, a charlatan may make a Bluff check against an ally within 30 feet who can see and hear him. The ally makes a Sense Motive check, with a bonus equal to +20. (The ally may not intentionally fail this check)

    If the charlatan successfully Bluffs his ally, the ally's power surges with confidence and he is convinced he will save them all. The ally gains 2 bonus d10 hit dice and temporary hit points associated with them, as well as immunity to fear and compulsion effects, and a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls. Any critical hits the ally threatens are automatically confirmed, and his firm belief in his invincibility grants him DR 5/-.

    This bonus lasts until either the end of the encounter or until the charlatan admits he was lying in order to see his ally suddenly look up and realize he's fighting toe-to-toe with a Colossal red wyrm.

    An ally who succeeds on his Sense Motive check cannot be affected by You Got This Bro! for 24 hours. A charlatan may only have this effect active on one ally at a time. (He may not attempt the Bluff check again until the first one either expires or he ends it prematurely by admitting his lie)

    What are You Talking About? (Ex): A trained charlatan can confound his enemies by twisting their words against them, to the point that the creature honestly cannot comprehend itself any longer. The charlatan makes a Bluff check opposed by the creature's Sense Motive check, with the +20 bonus for being completely unbelievable.

    If the charlatan succeeds, he convinces the creature that no one can understand it, that the creature is speaking gibberish and garble and nonsense. The creature is driven permanently insane, as the spell. This effect can only be cured by a heal, mass heal, or miracle spell. A creature that succeeds its Sense Motive check is immune to this ability for 24 hours. The charlatan may only attempt to do this once per day.

    Who are You Going to Believe? (Su): At 10th level, the charlatan's silver tongue is so powerful that he is able to lie without even a basis, and his poor victim's own mind is led astray. When the charlatan makes a Bluff check, he can choose to claim something completely outrageous, but put enough details into his lie and keep his face straight enough that the poor victim's mind actually alters its perception of reality to match the lie.

    For example, an unarmed charlatan backed into a corner could raise his hand angrily and say with complete confidence, "Back, you scoundrel, lest you force me to use this: The blade of my ancestors, a Holy Avenger that passed through the hands of countless paladins, and was used to slay Tiamat herself, and cast her into the Nine Hells!"

    Now, of course, there is no sword in the charalatan's hand, but suddenly the poor victim sees a deadly, glowing blade clasped expertly in the charlatan's hand, ready to cut him open.

    This ability creates an illusion similar to a major image, though only to the target(s) of the Bluff check, and instead of making a Will save to disbelieve the illusion, the enemy gets to make an opposed Sense Motive check with a +20 bonus (this bonus is from the lie being completely unbelievable, it does not stack with that bonus). If the Sense Motive check succeeds, that creature is immune to the charlatan's Who are You Going to Believe? ability for 24 hours. The only limit to the illusion this can create is the charlatan's imagination, he could use it to convince everyone he is a king without needing to make a single Disguise check, or he could use it to frighten off a group of ogres with his "pet gold dragon".

    The duration of the illusion is until the charlatan breaks character or one hour, whichever comes first (though the charlatan is aware of this and can make another Bluff before his illusion ends to reset the duration). A gnome receives a +10 bonus on his Sense Motive check to resist the illusion, while a gnome charlatan receives a +5 bonus on his Bluff check to create the illusion.

    The glibness spell cannot be used to aid this Bluff check. This is a mind-affecting, sonic, language-dependent, illusionary, supernatural ability.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-11-03 at 02:00 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    NINTH LEVEL SPELLS.... MY EYES.... Ok, sorry. Had to get that out.

    Pre-reqs are tough. Level 7 entry at best, (unless using Able Learner or such), gigantic feat tax... it DOES mean no wizards are gonna grab this, though. That's nice. Rogues/swashbucklers will use this class well, methinks.

    But the spells still seem like a lot. A new spell level every time you level up? Sure, it's only tons of unknown spells and enchainment and illusion, but still. That's a ton of spells.
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    I cannot tell you the number of times I laughed while reading this.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    NINTH LEVEL SPELLS.... MY EYES.... Ok, sorry. Had to get that out.

    Pre-reqs are tough. Level 7 entry at best, (unless using Able Learner or such), gigantic feat tax... it DOES mean no wizards are gonna grab this, though. That's nice. Rogues/swashbucklers will use this class well, methinks.
    I didn't think Able Learner was able to increase your max ranks, it seems to just lessen your skill points spent on cross-class ranks.

    But the spells still seem like a lot. A new spell level every time you level up? Sure, it's only tons of unknown spells and enchainment and illusion, but still. That's a ton of spells.
    I lifted the spell progression directly from the Apostle of Peace class (except it got 0th level spells as well) from Book of Exalted Deeds. 7th level entry with four harsh prereq feats and a new spell level every time you leveled up. And the Apostle of Peace spell list was much larger.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-25 at 02:58 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    I like the just about everything but the spells. Now that isn't to say i dislike the spells because there are too many of them or anything of the like i just don't like attaching spells to every class and its cousin (mind you im not accusing you of that either). Over all a good concept and i rather enjoyed reading the whole entry (minus the spells of course :D) i also feel compelled to ask... would you mind if i ripped this class to use in mygameionedaywillgetstartedbecauseijustgotdonework ingmy69.5houraweekjobsoineedsometimetogetsaidgamep lanedandready?

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by FallenGuardian View Post
    I like the just about everything but the spells. Now that isn't to say i dislike the spells because there are too many of them or anything of the like i just don't like attaching spells to every class and its cousin (mind you im not accusing you of that either). Over all a good concept and i rather enjoyed reading the whole entry (minus the spells of course :D) i also feel compelled to ask... would you mind if i ripped this class to use in mygameionedaywillgetstartedbecauseijustgotdonework ingmy69.5houraweekjobsoineedsometimetogetsaidgamep lanedandready?
    I don't know if the class is particularly worth using without the spells, what with the 3 dead levels. If you were to use this class without spells I would suggest giving the Charlatan glibness as a spell like ability 3 times per day at 2nd level, with a caster level equal to his character level. (I know you don't like attaching spells to everything, but as that spell is specifically only used to help him lie, he should have it. No one should be able to lie better than a charlatan, magically or otherwise)

    And I would not mind you using it at all! Have fun!

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    The thought of Jack Sparrow mindraping people with programmed amnesia a level before a wizard can mindraped me.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    The thought of Jack Sparrow mindraping people with programmed amnesia a level before a wizard can mindraped me.
    You think it's too early? I didn't really think it was that bad, since A) it's got the exact same level progression as a WotC-printed class and B) it only has a very limited spell list.

    I mean, I thought the idea itself was kind of cool. A specialist rogue enchanter who gets fast spell progression and ends up getting higher level spells faster than an actual wizard, but still having most of his spells dealing with the immunity to mind-affecting.

    Edit: And in order to get 9th level spells at 16th level, you need to be a human, a stongheart halfling, or be using flaws and spend two feats on Persuasion and Skill Focus (Bluff) so that seems like a pretty fair trade to me, for a single ninth level spell one level earlier than the wizard. (Assuming you have a Charisma score of 28 at 16th level, without a racial bonus because you needed to be a human or a strongheart halfling. If you don't you don't get a ninth level spell til 17th)
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-25 at 04:38 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    No, the Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class has no class features besides a few 3rd level spell slots. The only spell he can cast is Glibness.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    I'll admit...I wasn't interested in anything I was reading, and the spells seemed to dilute the lying scoundrel concept of the class. I was ready to leave the thread rather disappointed.

    But that capstone? Man. That capstone. I love it. For gods' sake ditch the spells and give me more abilities like that. Maybe up the prerequisites even more (making it a very high level class), and start me off with things like that and eventually let me bluff reality ("Wall? What wall? Of COURSE I can walk through that space. Gravity? WHAT gravity? Of COURSE I can fly...)

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    But that capstone? Man. That capstone. I love it. For gods' sake ditch the spells and give me more abilities like that. Maybe up the prerequisites even more (making it a very high level class), and start me off with things like that and eventually let me bluff reality ("Wall? What wall? Of COURSE I can walk through that space. Gravity? WHAT gravity? Of COURSE I can fly...)
    The capstone was actually what started the class. I began the class with a capstone and worked my way back from it, unsure of how to really fill the rest of the class out. I thought I had some good ideas, but I guess not.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    With it being advertised as a skill class it is rather remarkably spell-based.

    A Bluff-based ability that lets you Iron Heart Surge would be nice. "Blind? I'm not blind, you idiots! I can see with my inner eye."
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    With it being advertised as a skill class it is rather remarkably spell-based.

    A Bluff-based ability that lets you Iron Heart Surge would be nice. "Blind? I'm not blind, you idiots! I can see with my inner eye."
    That seems more like lying to yourself, (as you'd have to convince your own body that you weren't sick) which seems like the opposite of a guy who has everyone dangling on strings.

    Edit: Alright, I removed the spellcasting and now I'm going to go into maintenance mode and see if I can rework the class to be more shenanigans-based.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-25 at 05:03 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    And done! Added Stop Embarassing Yourself!, You Got This Bro!, You're Not That Tough!, and changed Better Watch Out!. What do you all think now?

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    I love "You got this, bro!" but maybe limit the number of uses per day or the number of allies it can be used on at one time.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos_Laicosin View Post
    I love "You got this, bro!" but maybe limit the number of uses per day or the number of allies it can be used on at one time.
    Fixed. It now only works on one ally at a time.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Reading this class, I am reminded of items on Mr. Welch's list:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Welch
    1023. The bluff skill is no substitute for actually knowing the spell.
    1818. Can't make a bluff check to convince the monster I actually hit him.
    1952. There is no bluff check in the world that gets around divine retribution.
    Now let's look at the class.
    1023: Effectively pulled off at level 2
    1818: Not here, though considering the class, it could get a little abused
    1952: Still working out the math on whether or not a level 10 Charlatan could bluff a god.

    In summary:

    Charlatans are Awesome

    EDIT: Here's the math for Bluffing a god. I'm using Cuthebert because he has the highest Sense Motive Modifier. Nerull comes in second at +90, followed by Bahamut at +79.
    God: St. Cuthebert
    Base Sense Motive Modifier: +100, and always rolls a 20.
    -10 for being close to the Charlatan
    Total: 110

    Level 10 Charlatan/Level 1 Warlock/Level 6 Sorcerer:
    Bluff Modifier:
    20 (Ranks)
    5 (Feats)
    10 (Base Charisma score (Assumed to start at 18 before racial modifiers, character is a race with a +4 to Charisma, and character has read a +4 Tome of Leadership (grants +4 Charisma), and has recieved all 4 stat increases))
    3 (Snake Familiar)
    Non-magical total: +38
    Roll needed: Impossible

    Adding Magic Items and Spells:
    3 (Cloak of Charisma +6)
    6 (Beguiling Influence)
    30 (Glibness)
    5 (Mask of Lies)
    2 (Eagle's Splendor)
    2 (Amulet of Wordtwisting)
    2 (Inspire Competence {The function of this depends on your DM.})
    Magical Total: +50

    Net total: +88
    Roll needed: Impossible, but only barely (Needs to roll a 22)
    Last edited by GFawkes; 2011-10-25 at 07:06 PM.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    Reading this class, I am reminded of items on Mr. Welch's list:



    Now let's look at the class.
    1023: Effectively pulled off at level 2
    1818: Not here, though considering the class, it could get a little abused
    1952: Still working out the math on whether or not a level 10 Charlatan could bluff a god.

    In summary:

    Charlatans are Awesome
    I've never heard of this list, but it sounds hilarious. And thanks for your compliment.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    This is by no means the ultimate bluff prestige class. It's nice, but the vast majority of its abilities are for combat, and bluff-focused builds gain most of their benefit when avoiding combat.

    A minimally build-optimized and well-played bluff-focused bard could make more effective use of the skill than rogue 10/charlatan 10. That is not what I call "ultimate".

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    This class is forever allowed in any game i gm... ever!!!!! You sir have won more than an internet you have won my eternal respect, admiration, and are close to winning my worship!!!!!

    GOOD SHOW SIR!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post

    A minimally build-optimized and well-played bluff-focused bard could make more effective use of the skill than rogue 10/charlatan 10. That is not what I call "ultimate".
    Please give me an example of what a bard could use the Bluff skill for that a rogue couldn't.

    This class is forever allowed in any game i gm... ever!!!!! You sir have won more than an internet you have won my eternal respect, admiration, and are close to winning my worship!!!!!

    GOOD SHOW SIR!!!!!!!
    Why thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it. And I'm glad you, Morph and Djinn all convinced me to drop the spellcasting and really think about the quantum physics of a good lie so I could actually make a really fun class.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-25 at 06:48 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    This is by no means the ultimate bluff prestige class. It's nice, but the vast majority of its abilities are for combat, and bluff-focused builds gain most of their benefit when avoiding combat.

    A minimally build-optimized and well-played bluff-focused bard could make more effective use of the skill than rogue 10/charlatan 10. That is not what I call "ultimate".
    I think he means that most of your skills give buffs to foes sense motive checks vs your bluffs. to be quite frank from a mechanical standpoint this is kinda true but personally i don't care i love this class... if some one is bluffing they will be bluffing hard anyways so why not let them do shenanigans in combat or out?

    although perhaps there could be an ability that helps them bluff their way out of a direct confrontation similar to the movie quote you used in the opening... forcing people to be confused for X number of rounds on a failed sense motive check or something?

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by FallenGuardian View Post
    I think he means that most of your skills give buffs to foes sense motive checks vs your bluffs. to be quite frank from a mechanical standpoint this is kinda true but personally i don't care i love this class... if some one is bluffing they will be bluffing hard anyways so why not let them do shenanigans in combat or out?
    9 times out of 10, your opponent will not have any ranks in the Sense Motive skill, assuming they are right out of the Monster Manual. The bonuses to Sense Motive checks is helping compensate for that.

    although perhaps there could be an ability that helps them bluff their way out of a direct confrontation similar to the movie quote you used in the opening... forcing people to be confused for X number of rounds on a failed sense motive check or something?
    The Bluff skill can already do this. It won't confuse a target, but it can easily be used to avoid confrontation. You simply lie and say you mean no harm or that you have somewhere to be or you're on the enemy's side or whatever lie works best for the situation.

    If nothing else, you can use Who are You Going to Believe? to mess things up. If you're about to be apprehended by city guards, lie and say there's a giant invading the city. If you're being attacked by a lich sorcerer, cry out in relief as the head paladin of Heironeous's church arrives. Et cetera.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    I support Djinn's assessment that the capstone is the true gem here. I'd love to see a 20-level base class built around that as the key class feature. The abilities you have been adding are in the right direction, but I still think a base class could give you more to work with.
    Last edited by TravelLog; 2011-10-25 at 07:11 PM.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    EDIT: Here's the math for Bluffing a god. I'm using Cuthebert because he has the highest Sense Motive Modifier. Nerull comes in second at +90, followed by Bahamut at +79.
    God: St. Cuthebert
    Base Sense Motive Modifier: +100, and always rolls a 20.
    -10 for being close to the Charlatan
    Total: 110

    Level 10 Charlatan/Level 1 Warlock/Level 6 Sorcerer:
    Bluff Modifier:
    20 (Ranks)
    5 (Feats)
    10 (Base Charisma score (Assumed to start at 18 before racial modifiers, character is a race with a +4 to Charisma, and character has read a +4 Tome of Leadership (grants +4 Charisma), and has recieved all 4 stat increases))
    3 (Snake Familiar)
    Non-magical total: +38
    Roll needed: Impossible

    Adding Magic Items and Spells:
    3 (Cloak of Charisma +6)
    6 (Beguiling Influence)
    30 (Glibness)
    5 (Mask of Lies)
    2 (Eagle's Splendor)
    2 (Amulet of Wordtwisting)
    Magical Total: +48

    Net total: +86
    Roll needed: Impossible, but only barely (Needs to roll a 24)
    Well, okay, but why are you only using a level 17 character? Let's clean this up a bit:

    Eagle's Splendor needs to be removed. It does not stack with Cloak of Charisma.

    Add 3 ranks, for a total of +23 ranks. Add +2 for UMDing a wand of devil's ego (Tyrant of the Nine Hells) and also a wand of Guidance of the Avatar. Suddenly the total is +109. (it's probably lower because guidance of the avatar is a competence bonus and I bet one of the +2 or +5 bonuses you listed up there was competence) as well as a wand of divine insight (Spell Compendium)

    Total bonus is +114, give or take +2. You succeed on a natural 6.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    I HAVE ANGERED THE PARAGON OF MY RACE!!!!!!!!!!

    *proceeds to inflict whip wounds on my own back in repentance*

    Please allow this one to most humbly bright more clarity to his above statement.

    *drops all pretense*

    ok this is just too silly now... *ahem* anywhoo... I think what i was getting at was that i was looking at the capstone of the ability and saw foes getting a +20 bonus to disbelieving the bluff. While a good liar could still bluff anyone with that bonus if they didn't have ranks even say a lvl 10 city guard with sense motive as a class skill with maxed ranks (which they should have if they are going to be guards but that is neither here nor there) they have a suddenly good chance of negating the capstone. however on the other side of this a gnome gets a +30 all in all bonus to resisting the bluff... Um... yah i don't know about you but suddenly your effective +45 to bluff at the appropriate level will still likely get you through a number less than ten is going to hurt... badly.

    Maybe the charlatan could get an ability that increases their bluff (like give them an ability at level for that gives them a competence bonus to bluff checks equal to half their level in the class from their intimacy with lying). secondly i think that an ability that straight out confuses an enemy (ala the spells confusion or insanity) would be awesome for this class as well as one that charms or dominates for a short period of time as well. but those are my only thoughts on improving on near perfection.

    long story short make bluff checks bigger and some way to inflict magic mental effects on them but rather than them being magic or supernatural make them extraordinary effects. I understand you have alot there already and alot more to chew through but those are just things i personally would like to see.

    Edit: your above post... im not good with gear and stacking stuff... like that... but either way my last paragraph still applies for me just because im from wisconsin and i like cheese*
    Last edited by FallenGuardian; 2011-10-25 at 07:14 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by FallenGuardian View Post
    I HAVE ANGERED THE PARAGON OF MY RACE!!!!!!!!!!

    *proceeds to inflict whip wounds on my own back in repentance*

    Please allow this one to most humbly bright more clarity to his above statement.

    *drops all pretense*

    ok this is just too silly now... *ahem* anywhoo... I think what i was getting at was that i was looking at the capstone of the ability and saw foes getting a +20 bonus to disbelieving the bluff. While a good liar could still bluff anyone with that bonus if they didn't have ranks even say a lvl 10 city guard with sense motive as a class skill with maxed ranks (which they should have if they are going to be guards but that is neither here nor there) they have a suddenly good chance of negating the capstone. however on the other side of this a gnome gets a +30 all in all bonus to resisting the bluff... Um... yah i don't know about you but suddenly your effective +45 to bluff at the appropriate level will still likely get you through a number less than ten is going to hurt... badly.

    Maybe the charlatan could get an ability that increases their bluff (like give them an ability at level for that gives them a competence bonus to bluff checks equal to half their level in the class from their intimacy with lying). secondly i think that an ability that straight out confuses an enemy (ala the spells confusion or insanity) would be awesome for this class as well as one that charms or dominates for a short period of time as well. but those are my only thoughts on improving on near perfection.

    long story short make bluff checks bigger and some way to inflict magic mental effects on them but rather than them being magic or supernatural make them extraordinary effects. I understand you have alot there already and alot more to chew through but those are just things i personally would like to see.
    Er...but I had all of that beforehand and you didn't like it. I had glibness, charm monster, dominate person, confusion, insanity, the whole nine yards!

    Ugh..I'll take a look.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    :S maybe i missed them on inital reading...

    but honestly i don't want to change anything here too much as it is... could it be better?

    well that can be argued... no one likes the same things all the time

    Do i like it as is? YES VERY MUCH SO!

    now the only question remains do you like it? if you are still unhappy with it then do what you wish with it. but if you are happy with it you have my vote to close the thread right now so no one can scratch your statue of awesome.

    (last thought it may have been the spells that you had to do things like insanity and what not but i wasn't looking for spells to do those things. I wanted an extraordinary ability that maybe mimicked those spells unless they succeeded on their sense motive checks (rather than will saves) making this a valid option in areas without magic. do you see my flawed logic?

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by FallenGuardian View Post
    :S maybe i missed them on inital reading...

    but honestly i don't want to change anything here too much as it is... could it be better?

    well that can be argued... no one likes the same things all the time

    Do i like it as is? YES VERY MUCH SO!

    now the only question remains do you like it? if you are still unhappy with it then do what you wish with it. but if you are happy with it you have my vote to close the thread right now so no one can scratch your statue of awesome.

    (last thought it may have been the spells that you had to do things like insanity and what not but i wasn't looking for spells to do those things. I wanted an extraordinary ability that maybe mimicked those spells unless they succeeded on their sense motive checks (rather than will saves) making this a valid option in areas without magic. do you see my flawed logic?
    There, added Silver Tongue, Dagger? What Dagger? and What are You Talking About?

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    honestly i feel as though this class can now do absolutely anything... period. I LOVE IT.

    now only one question remains

    Did I make you mad at me? *cringes*

    Edit: one last ability i might add to them for one of my random gag campaigns is "YOU MAD BRO?! YAH YOU MAD!" just to make people laugh but again this is meant to be humor.
    Last edited by FallenGuardian; 2011-10-25 at 07:52 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by FallenGuardian View Post
    honestly i feel as though this class can now do absolutely anything... period. I LOVE IT.

    now only one question remains

    Did I make you mad at me? *cringes*
    Thank you. And of course not! You encouraged me to make my class better! Why would I be angry at that?

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