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2011-10-25, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
just the ugh... ill take a look comment a few posts ago... usually when i hear that i feel as though i have made some one want to shoot me in the face... with a SLEDGE HAMMER!!!!!!!!
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2011-10-25, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
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2011-10-25, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
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2011-10-25, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Just a thought, but I like the idea of a class feature that let's you use the rage spell on your allies.
Charatlan: "Hey, BSF! See that goblin? He said your mom's fat! Go get him!" BSF: "RAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!"Guess who's good at avatars? Thormag. That's who.
A Campaign Setting more than a year in the making, Patria!
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2011-10-25, 09:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
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2011-10-25, 11:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
I was just thinking, a lot of these seem to be language based so I'd assume the targets would have to be able to understand you. Perhaps allow this class to have bonus languages based on class level. Even on top of that, any animals would likely not understand any languages or even gestures so I'm not sure that these abilities would work on targets with 2 Int or less and especially nothing with zero Int..
Just something to think about.Last edited by Chaos_Laicosin; 2011-10-25 at 11:02 PM.
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2011-10-25, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
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2011-10-28, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Seeking opinions on Stop Embarrassing Yourself!. Useful mechanics-wise? Good fluff-wise? Would you guys use the optional mechanic?
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2011-10-28, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Looks awesome. I noticed that a few early posts mentioned spell progression. Was that removed? If so, I agree.
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2011-10-28, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
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2011-10-28, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
The Stop Embarassing Yourself is so... wrong. yet so right. I love it. the optional mechanic is a great idea, too. I can just see the flying wizard about to fireball the party, and instead droping an anti-magic field and falling on his face.
it would also be awesome if there was a nice bluff mechanic to be able to do ranged trip attempts with bluff.
also, bringing more inspiration from cap'n jack, remember the scene in the 3rd pirates movie, where he pretends to be following something interesting from side to side of the ship, and all the people running back and forth flips the boat? well, a bluff check to force someone to aid another on you would be pretty sweet. like forcing a hobgoblin to aid another on your bull rush attempt on his ally by miming running from an invisible threat or something.Custom avatar by me - based on my Half-Orc Eldritch Knight, Keth d'Lordran
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Started with D&D 3.5, these days I mostly play 5E and occationally Call of C'thulu. Currently running two D&D 5E games over roll20
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2011-10-28, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
This looks really fun. Jack would be proud.
Just one thing:
A charlatan may only enrage one creature at a time. If a charlatan may only use this ability once per encounter.
I wonder if a Charlatan could Bluff himself into believe that the rum insn't gone.: I may be in error, but I believe the appropiate proclamation is "Sneak Attack, bitch."
Thoughts on fanfiction.
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2011-10-28, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Oregon
Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Guess who's good at avatars? Thormag. That's who.
A Campaign Setting more than a year in the making, Patria!
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2011-10-28, 09:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
I like them too. I'm adding the ranged trip attempt in, but I'm having trouble writing the forced Aid Another ability. Could someone please type something up and post it here? I'll put it in if they do.
I think this part needs some editing (probably just removing the "If").
Edit: Added Is That a Banana Peel? at 5th level.Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-28 at 09:35 PM.
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2011-10-30, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Persuade (with a high chance) someone with sense motive ranks equal to his own bluff ranks (and the same bonuses from items) of a bluff that's "way out there, almost too incredible to consider." (Well, I suppose a rogue could use UMD to get Glibness, but that's far more difficult than being able to cast it yourself.)
No, that's not what I meant at all. It's that the additional uses of bluff are in fact inferior (vastly inferior in the case of an optimized play-style) to the already-existing uses of bluff, so while potentially an interesting class, it is nowhere near "ultimate".
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2011-10-30, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
He originally had the ability to cast glibness, but no one liked that so I changed it. Besides, he does have Use Magic Device, and even if he didn't, he could just drink a potion of glibness for 750 gp, no check necessary, for the same action it takes for a bard to cast glibness.
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2011-10-30, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Behind You! (Ex): A 5th level charlatan can make a Bluff check to Feint in Combat as a free action. If he does so, his opponent receives a +10 bonus on its Sense Motive check to resist the feint, but it takes a -2 penalty to its Sense Motive check to resist the feint for every time its been feinted this round. (This penalty is cumulative)
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2011-10-30, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Actually, he does. Skill checks don't have critical successes or failures, so if it's impossible for the Charlatan's Bluff modifier, on a roll of 20, to beat the enemy's Sense Motive on a roll of 1, they cannot be feinted.
Still pretty much a guarantee, though.
I advise making the cumulative penalty count attempts, not just successes.
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2011-10-30, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Woops! Good call! I added that the charlatan may only attempt to feint once per attack.
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2011-10-30, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Ok, but then it's nowhere near "ultimate". (Actually, even with it he's nowhere near "ultimate"; it lets him match a bard, but not hugely surpass one.)
he could just drink a potion of glibness for 750 gp.
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2011-10-30, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
It lets him match a bard, and also do ten different things with the Bluff skill that the bard couldn't do. (Even if you argue that the Bluff skill could already do one of these things for a bard, that would be between you and your DM, meanwhile this class clearly grants those uses)
No can do. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions, and Glibness has a range of personal. (And yes, I am aware of why it's ironic to be posting that argument on this site, but it's still valid.)Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-30 at 09:51 PM.
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2011-10-31, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
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2011-10-31, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-31 at 03:44 PM.
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2011-10-31, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Hmm...
-Bluff people into believing they're his friends (use Bluff instead of Diplomacy).
-Make even the most extraordinary lies believable (substantially reduce the circumstance modifiers for extraordinary lies).
-Bluff even people who know he has to be lying (remove circumstance modifiers for knowing that he's a liar.)
-Allow him to bluff in writing at no penalty.
-Just plain boost the check.
The thing is, other than Diplomacy uses, mass bluffing through writing, and increasing the chances of success, a good bluffer doesn't need anything else. A class that gave the ability "automatically succeed on all bluff checks" and nothing else would be tier 1 if not higher.
But you definitely want to focus on noncombat, as when Bluff is seriously in play that's where the game is won or lost.Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-10-31 at 08:20 PM.
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2011-11-02, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
*rolls eyes and points to the Silver Tongue ability*
-Make even the most extraordinary lies believable (substantially reduce the circumstance modifiers for extraordinary lies).
-Bluff even people who know he has to be lying (remove circumstance modifiers for knowing that he's a liar.)
-Allow him to bluff in writing at no penalty.
-Just plain boost the check.
Yeah, I think you haven't been reading my updates.
The thing is, other than Diplomacy uses, mass bluffing through writing, and increasing the chances of success, a good bluffer doesn't need anything else. A class that gave the ability "automatically succeed on all bluff checks" and nothing else would be tier 1 if not higher.
But you definitely want to focus on noncombat, as when Bluff is seriously in play that's where the game is won or lost.
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2011-11-02, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- You lost the game.
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
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2011-11-02, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Yeah, Charm. A first-level wizard can cast Charm Person, and this has two of the same big problems that that has as compared to Diplomacy (the one it doesn't have is allowing a save): It's blocked by Protection from {alignment}, and it's highly illegal to use on other people. (If you're not playing an evil game and use it on people who aren't outlaw, you're going to end up with a lot of problems if you're caught.)
*rolls eyes and points to the Would I Lie To You ability*
Well, I gave him the ability to Bluff someone who had concrete proof that something was real or that something happened (Dagger? What Dagger?)
No. That's just...no. There's no way. The Bluff skill is all about tone and body language. That penalty makes sense and I'm not removing it.
*rolls eyes and points to the Silver Tongue ability AGAIN*
I gave him Silver Tongue, Dagger? What Dagger?, Is That A Banana Peel?, What are You Talking About? and Who are You Going to Believe?, all of which are non-combat abilities.
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2011-11-02, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
How are you going to get caught though, it's an extraordinary ability. Even if it's blocked by protection spells, there's no way to detect extraordinary abilities or if a person was affected by them.
That's only within 30', and is a flat bonus rather than one that specifically applies to the ones with a huge circumstance bonus to Sense Motive. It's more of the "just plain boost the check" variety. (That said, it is the main reason that a serious bluffer would take the class.)
At 10th level, you receive a +10 bonus to Bluff checks (thanks to Silver Tongue) and your opponent takes a -10 penalty to their Sense Motive checks (thanks to Would I Lie to You?) so it ends up negating the bonus an opponent receives for you saying something impossible. Which is what you wanted.
I think you mean Would I Lie to You (Silver Tongue has no bonuses to the check.)
Is That A Banana Peel is a combat ability (it's pretty much useless outside of combat), and What Are You Talking About is close to a combat ability (it's not actually for combat, but it's meant to directly harm another, rather than manipulate the way most noncombat abilities are). Admitted that he has some noncombat abilities, but it doesn't seem to be the primary focus of the class.
It's basically used for dealing with enemies when you're not able to deal with them directly, or when it would be less than desirable to do so. (Such as when you're disarmed, when you're in a town, or when the person in question is a very high rank with plenty of loyal followers)
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2011-11-03, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
Why not? Sense Motive should work just as well on extraordinary abilities as supernatural ones.
But that ability is definitely one of the more useful ones he gets.
At 10th level, you receive a +10 bonus to Bluff checks (thanks to Silver Tongue)
What Are You Talking About is actually rather useful out of combat. Even though it is directly meant to harm someone it can easily incapacitate a person without the charlatan needing to lift a single finger. (If you activate it close to city guards, there's a good chance that the person affected will attack them, which can result in them simply being imprisoned, which gets them out of your way without killing them)
So conceded that this is a lot closer to ultimate than I thought at first, although several of its abilities shouldn't be used much if it's being played right, and there are a few abilities it can use (most notably, that if he fails a bluff check he can make another bluff check to try to pretend it was an honest mistake.)
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2011-11-03, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)
True, but making a Sense Motive check against a Bluff specialist should be rather difficult for the majority of characters he comes across. (Bonuses from the class notwithstanding, any optimizer will grab a masterwork item and a +20 custom item as soon as possible, and maybe even take the Item Familiar feat to double their ranks in it)
Ah, I missed that, bit, as it was a single line in an overall more interesting ability. You probably should make that bonus a separate ability.
Ok, although it's still the same basic approach as combat. Still, I see how it's worthwhile.
So conceded that this is a lot closer to ultimate than I thought at first, although several of its abilities shouldn't be used much if it's being played right, and there are a few abilities it can use (most notably, that if he fails a bluff check he can make another bluff check to try to pretend it was an honest mistake.)