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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    just the ugh... ill take a look comment a few posts ago... usually when i hear that i feel as though i have made some one want to shoot me in the face... with a SLEDGE HAMMER!!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by TravelLog View Post
    I support Djinn's assessment that the capstone is the true gem here. I'd love to see a 20-level base class built around that as the key class feature. The abilities you have been adding are in the right direction, but I still think a base class could give you more to work with.
    Re-posting this since it seems to have been missed. I salivate at the thought of this as a 20 level base class.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by TravelLog View Post
    Re-posting this since it seems to have been missed. I salivate at the thought of this as a 20 level base class.
    I saw it, don't worry. I'll consider it.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Just a thought, but I like the idea of a class feature that let's you use the rage spell on your allies.

    Charatlan: "Hey, BSF! See that goblin? He said your mom's fat! Go get him!" BSF: "RAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!"
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    Just a thought, but I like the idea of a class feature that let's you use the rage spell on your allies.

    Charatlan: "Hey, BSF! See that goblin? He said your mom's fat! Go get him!" BSF: "RAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!"
    Well, that was where I was going with You Got This Bro! but I suppose I could put the Rage version in as a weaker version at an earlier level.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    I was just thinking, a lot of these seem to be language based so I'd assume the targets would have to be able to understand you. Perhaps allow this class to have bonus languages based on class level. Even on top of that, any animals would likely not understand any languages or even gestures so I'm not sure that these abilities would work on targets with 2 Int or less and especially nothing with zero Int..

    Just something to think about.
    Last edited by Chaos_Laicosin; 2011-10-25 at 11:02 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos_Laicosin View Post
    I was just thinking, a lot of these seem to be language based so I'd assume the targets would have to be able to understand you. Perhaps allow this class to have bonus languages based on class level. Even on top of that, any animals would likely not understand any languages or even gestures so I'm not sure that these abilities would work on targets with 2 Int or less and especially nothing with zero Int..

    Just something to think about.
    Oh I'm aware that it doesn't work on creatures with animal or no intelligence. The ability to have bonus languages though...interesting...I'll add Speak Language to the class skills.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Seeking opinions on Stop Embarrassing Yourself!. Useful mechanics-wise? Good fluff-wise? Would you guys use the optional mechanic?

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Looks awesome. I noticed that a few early posts mentioned spell progression. Was that removed? If so, I agree.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Looks awesome. I noticed that a few early posts mentioned spell progression. Was that removed? If so, I agree.
    Yeah, originally I had the class using enchantment spells, but then a few of the posters encouraged me to write my own uses for the Bluff skill (The capstone was always there)

    Thanks for the comment!

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    The Stop Embarassing Yourself is so... wrong. yet so right. I love it. the optional mechanic is a great idea, too. I can just see the flying wizard about to fireball the party, and instead droping an anti-magic field and falling on his face.

    it would also be awesome if there was a nice bluff mechanic to be able to do ranged trip attempts with bluff.

    also, bringing more inspiration from cap'n jack, remember the scene in the 3rd pirates movie, where he pretends to be following something interesting from side to side of the ship, and all the people running back and forth flips the boat? well, a bluff check to force someone to aid another on you would be pretty sweet. like forcing a hobgoblin to aid another on your bull rush attempt on his ally by miming running from an invisible threat or something.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    This looks really fun. Jack would be proud.

    Just one thing:
    A charlatan may only enrage one creature at a time. If a charlatan may only use this ability once per encounter.
    I think this part needs some editing (probably just removing the "If").

    I wonder if a Charlatan could Bluff himself into believe that the rum insn't gone.
    : I may be in error, but I believe the appropiate proclamation is "Sneak Attack, bitch."

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla_pasta View Post
    it would also be awesome if there was a nice bluff mechanic to be able to do ranged trip attempts with bluff.

    also, bringing more inspiration from cap'n jack, remember the scene in the 3rd pirates movie, where he pretends to be following something interesting from side to side of the ship, and all the people running back and forth flips the boat? well, a bluff check to force someone to aid another on you would be pretty sweet. like forcing a hobgoblin to aid another on your bull rush attempt on his ally by miming running from an invisible threat or something.
    I second both of these. Fairly simple mechanically, fluffy beautiful and totally in keeping with the class.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    I second both of these. Fairly simple mechanically, fluffy beautiful and totally in keeping with the class.
    I like them too. I'm adding the ranged trip attempt in, but I'm having trouble writing the forced Aid Another ability. Could someone please type something up and post it here? I'll put it in if they do.

    I think this part needs some editing (probably just removing the "If").
    Oh, thank you. I'll do that now.

    Edit: Added Is That a Banana Peel? at 5th level.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-28 at 09:35 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Please give me an example of what a bard could use the Bluff skill for that a rogue couldn't.
    Persuade (with a high chance) someone with sense motive ranks equal to his own bluff ranks (and the same bonuses from items) of a bluff that's "way out there, almost too incredible to consider." (Well, I suppose a rogue could use UMD to get Glibness, but that's far more difficult than being able to cast it yourself.)

    Quote Originally Posted by FallenGuardian View Post
    I think he means that most of your skills give buffs to foes sense motive checks vs your bluffs.
    No, that's not what I meant at all. It's that the additional uses of bluff are in fact inferior (vastly inferior in the case of an optimized play-style) to the already-existing uses of bluff, so while potentially an interesting class, it is nowhere near "ultimate".

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Persuade (with a high chance) someone with sense motive ranks equal to his own bluff ranks (and the same bonuses from items) of a bluff that's "way out there, almost too incredible to consider." (Well, I suppose a rogue could use UMD to get Glibness, but that's far more difficult than being able to cast it yourself.)
    He originally had the ability to cast glibness, but no one liked that so I changed it. Besides, he does have Use Magic Device, and even if he didn't, he could just drink a potion of glibness for 750 gp, no check necessary, for the same action it takes for a bard to cast glibness.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Behind You! (Ex): A 5th level charlatan can make a Bluff check to Feint in Combat as a free action. If he does so, his opponent receives a +10 bonus on its Sense Motive check to resist the feint, but it takes a -2 penalty to its Sense Motive check to resist the feint for every time its been feinted this round. (This penalty is cumulative)
    This has probably been mentioned before, but a Charlatan could simply feint over and over and over again until the opponent fails it's Sense Motive check. Basically, the Charlatan never, ever has to worry about DEX bonuses to AC, nor about not getting a Sneak Attack.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by legomaster00156 View Post
    This has probably been mentioned before, but a Charlatan could simply feint over and over and over again until the opponent fails it's Sense Motive check. Basically, the Charlatan never, ever has to worry about DEX bonuses to AC, nor about not getting a Sneak Attack.
    Actually, he does. Skill checks don't have critical successes or failures, so if it's impossible for the Charlatan's Bluff modifier, on a roll of 20, to beat the enemy's Sense Motive on a roll of 1, they cannot be feinted.

    Still pretty much a guarantee, though.

    I advise making the cumulative penalty count attempts, not just successes.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Woops! Good call! I added that the charlatan may only attempt to feint once per attack.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    He originally had the ability to cast glibness, but no one liked that so I changed it.
    Ok, but then it's nowhere near "ultimate". (Actually, even with it he's nowhere near "ultimate"; it lets him match a bard, but not hugely surpass one.)

    he could just drink a potion of glibness for 750 gp.
    No can do. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions, and Glibness has a range of personal. (And yes, I am aware of why it's ironic to be posting that argument on this site, but it's still valid.)

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Ok, but then it's nowhere near "ultimate". (Actually, even with it he's nowhere near "ultimate"; it lets him match a bard, but not hugely surpass one.)
    It lets him match a bard, and also do ten different things with the Bluff skill that the bard couldn't do. (Even if you argue that the Bluff skill could already do one of these things for a bard, that would be between you and your DM, meanwhile this class clearly grants those uses)


    No can do. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions, and Glibness has a range of personal. (And yes, I am aware of why it's ironic to be posting that argument on this site, but it's still valid.)
    You are correct. I was not aware of that, but even so, with a +20 to skill custom item and a wand of glibness that you UMD you can Bluff with the best of them.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-30 at 09:51 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    It lets him match a bard, and also do ten different things with the Bluff skill that the bard couldn't do.
    All of which are vastly inferior to the one the bard could do as well (assuming optimization on both sides). If it's going to be "ultimate" in an ability, it should have superior ways to use it, not just more inferior ways.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    All of which are vastly inferior to the one the bard could do as well (assuming optimization on both sides). If it's going to be "ultimate" in an ability, it should have superior ways to use it, not just more inferior ways.
    And I asked you for an example, which you never gave. If you give me an example, perhaps I could incorporate it into the class
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-31 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Hmm...

    -Bluff people into believing they're his friends (use Bluff instead of Diplomacy).
    -Make even the most extraordinary lies believable (substantially reduce the circumstance modifiers for extraordinary lies).
    -Bluff even people who know he has to be lying (remove circumstance modifiers for knowing that he's a liar.)
    -Allow him to bluff in writing at no penalty.
    -Just plain boost the check.

    The thing is, other than Diplomacy uses, mass bluffing through writing, and increasing the chances of success, a good bluffer doesn't need anything else. A class that gave the ability "automatically succeed on all bluff checks" and nothing else would be tier 1 if not higher.

    But you definitely want to focus on noncombat, as when Bluff is seriously in play that's where the game is won or lost.
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-10-31 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Hmm...

    -Bluff people into believing they're his friends (use Bluff instead of Diplomacy).
    *rolls eyes and points to the Silver Tongue ability*

    -Make even the most extraordinary lies believable (substantially reduce the circumstance modifiers for extraordinary lies).
    *rolls eyes and points to the Would I Lie To You ability*

    -Bluff even people who know he has to be lying (remove circumstance modifiers for knowing that he's a liar.)
    Well, I gave him the ability to Bluff someone who had concrete proof that something was real or that something happened (Dagger? What Dagger?)

    -Allow him to bluff in writing at no penalty.
    No. That's just...no. There's no way. The Bluff skill is all about tone and body language. That penalty makes sense and I'm not removing it.

    -Just plain boost the check.
    *rolls eyes and points to the Silver Tongue ability AGAIN*

    Yeah, I think you haven't been reading my updates.


    The thing is, other than Diplomacy uses, mass bluffing through writing, and increasing the chances of success, a good bluffer doesn't need anything else. A class that gave the ability "automatically succeed on all bluff checks" and nothing else would be tier 1 if not higher.

    But you definitely want to focus on noncombat, as when Bluff is seriously in play that's where the game is won or lost.
    I gave him Silver Tongue, Dagger? What Dagger?, Is That A Banana Peel?, What are You Talking About? and Who are You Going to Believe?, all of which are non-combat abilities.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    EDIT: Here's the math for Bluffing a god. I'm using Cuthebert because he has the highest Sense Motive Modifier. Nerull comes in second at +90, followed by Bahamut at +79.
    God: St. Cuthebert
    Base Sense Motive Modifier: +100, and always rolls a 20.
    -10 for being close to the Charlatan
    Total: 110

    Level 10 Charlatan/Level 1 Warlock/Level 6 Sorcerer:
    Bluff Modifier:
    20 (Ranks)
    5 (Feats)
    10 (Base Charisma score (Assumed to start at 18 before racial modifiers, character is a race with a +4 to Charisma, and character has read a +4 Tome of Leadership (grants +4 Charisma), and has recieved all 4 stat increases))
    3 (Snake Familiar)
    Non-magical total: +38
    Roll needed: Impossible

    Adding Magic Items and Spells:
    3 (Cloak of Charisma +6)
    6 (Beguiling Influence)
    30 (Glibness)
    5 (Mask of Lies)
    2 (Eagle's Splendor)
    2 (Amulet of Wordtwisting)
    2 (Inspire Competence {The function of this depends on your DM.})
    Magical Total: +50

    Net total: +88
    Roll needed: Impossible, but only barely (Needs to roll a 22)
    You're missing a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to charisma checks) and a Competence Bonus item (which is dirt cheep), which may or may not stack with these.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    *rolls eyes and points to the Silver Tongue ability*
    Yeah, Charm. A first-level wizard can cast Charm Person, and this has two of the same big problems that that has as compared to Diplomacy (the one it doesn't have is allowing a save): It's blocked by Protection from {alignment}, and it's highly illegal to use on other people. (If you're not playing an evil game and use it on people who aren't outlaw, you're going to end up with a lot of problems if you're caught.)

    *rolls eyes and points to the Would I Lie To You ability*
    That's only within 30', and is a flat bonus rather than one that specifically applies to the ones with a huge circumstance bonus to Sense Motive. It's more of the "just plain boost the check" variety. (That said, it is the main reason that a serious bluffer would take the class.)

    Well, I gave him the ability to Bluff someone who had concrete proof that something was real or that something happened (Dagger? What Dagger?)
    Ok, I must have missed that (or you added it after I raised the current topic).

    No. That's just...no. There's no way. The Bluff skill is all about tone and body language. That penalty makes sense and I'm not removing it.
    Ok, and that certainly makes sense...it does make the class less than "ultimate", though.

    *rolls eyes and points to the Silver Tongue ability AGAIN*
    I think you mean Would I Lie to You (Silver Tongue has no bonuses to the check.)

    I gave him Silver Tongue, Dagger? What Dagger?, Is That A Banana Peel?, What are You Talking About? and Who are You Going to Believe?, all of which are non-combat abilities.
    Is That A Banana Peel is a combat ability (it's pretty much useless outside of combat), and What Are You Talking About is close to a combat ability (it's not actually for combat, but it's meant to directly harm another, rather than manipulate the way most noncombat abilities are). Admitted that he has some noncombat abilities, but it doesn't seem to be the primary focus of the class.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Yeah, Charm. A first-level wizard can cast Charm Person, and this has two of the same big problems that that has as compared to Diplomacy (the one it doesn't have is allowing a save): It's blocked by Protection from {alignment}, and it's highly illegal to use on other people. (If you're not playing an evil game and use it on people who aren't outlaw, you're going to end up with a lot of problems if you're caught.)
    How are you going to get caught though, it's an extraordinary ability. Even if it's blocked by protection spells, there's no way to detect extraordinary abilities or if a person was affected by them.

    That's only within 30', and is a flat bonus rather than one that specifically applies to the ones with a huge circumstance bonus to Sense Motive. It's more of the "just plain boost the check" variety. (That said, it is the main reason that a serious bluffer would take the class.)

    At 10th level, you receive a +10 bonus to Bluff checks (thanks to Silver Tongue) and your opponent takes a -10 penalty to their Sense Motive checks (thanks to Would I Lie to You?) so it ends up negating the bonus an opponent receives for you saying something impossible. Which is what you wanted.



    I think you mean Would I Lie to You (Silver Tongue has no bonuses to the check.)
    Silver Tongue: Starting at 6th level, you receive a competence bonus on your Bluff checks equal to your class level and you get to charm monsters.

    Is That A Banana Peel is a combat ability (it's pretty much useless outside of combat), and What Are You Talking About is close to a combat ability (it's not actually for combat, but it's meant to directly harm another, rather than manipulate the way most noncombat abilities are). Admitted that he has some noncombat abilities, but it doesn't seem to be the primary focus of the class.
    What Are You Talking About is actually rather useful out of combat. Even though it is directly meant to harm someone it can easily incapacitate a person without the charlatan needing to lift a single finger. (If you activate it close to city guards, there's a good chance that the person affected will attack them, which can result in them simply being imprisoned, which gets them out of your way without killing them)

    It's basically used for dealing with enemies when you're not able to deal with them directly, or when it would be less than desirable to do so. (Such as when you're disarmed, when you're in a town, or when the person in question is a very high rank with plenty of loyal followers)

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    How are you going to get caught though, it's an extraordinary ability. Even if it's blocked by protection spells, there's no way to detect extraordinary abilities or if a person was affected by them.
    Why not? Sense Motive should work just as well on extraordinary abilities as supernatural ones.
    But that ability is definitely one of the more useful ones he gets.

    At 10th level, you receive a +10 bonus to Bluff checks (thanks to Silver Tongue)
    Ah, I missed that, bit, as it was a single line in an overall more interesting ability. You probably should make that bonus a separate ability.

    What Are You Talking About is actually rather useful out of combat. Even though it is directly meant to harm someone it can easily incapacitate a person without the charlatan needing to lift a single finger. (If you activate it close to city guards, there's a good chance that the person affected will attack them, which can result in them simply being imprisoned, which gets them out of your way without killing them)
    Ok, although it's still the same basic approach as combat. Still, I see how it's worthwhile.

    So conceded that this is a lot closer to ultimate than I thought at first, although several of its abilities shouldn't be used much if it's being played right, and there are a few abilities it can use (most notably, that if he fails a bluff check he can make another bluff check to try to pretend it was an honest mistake.)

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Bluff Prestige Class (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Why not? Sense Motive should work just as well on extraordinary abilities as supernatural ones.
    But that ability is definitely one of the more useful ones he gets.
    True, but making a Sense Motive check against a Bluff specialist should be rather difficult for the majority of characters he comes across. (Bonuses from the class notwithstanding, any optimizer will grab a masterwork item and a +20 custom item as soon as possible, and maybe even take the Item Familiar feat to double their ranks in it)

    Ah, I missed that, bit, as it was a single line in an overall more interesting ability. You probably should make that bonus a separate ability.
    Fair point. I'll do that.

    Ok, although it's still the same basic approach as combat. Still, I see how it's worthwhile.
    I have the same mindset you do, that if you're Bluffing properly, you should be avoiding combat more often than not, I just feel that the abilities the Bluff skill already offers are more than capable of that, but that your party wouldn't like it if you just avoided every encounter, so I'm giving you useful and interesting abilities to use during combat so that you don't get bored. It's basically all about giving the party face role continuity in combat, as he's rather skilled with it out of combat already.

    So conceded that this is a lot closer to ultimate than I thought at first, although several of its abilities shouldn't be used much if it's being played right, and there are a few abilities it can use (most notably, that if he fails a bluff check he can make another bluff check to try to pretend it was an honest mistake.)
    That's a very good suggestion. I'll add that in now, thank you.

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