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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    I'm starting to think it can be done, believe it or not. I think I'm going to try to design it...

    The idea starts with borrowing some of the Artificer's tricks to divorce him from item dependency and allow him to access magic through (Ex) crafting. If I do that right, that'll get him most of the way there on its own. From there I'm not sure where I'll go, but 8 skill points per level and a way to deal level appropriate damage are likely.
    It sounds like a good idea. The spellcaster path is univable since we won't him to cast spells and thus the only other way is "artifice".
    I support your decision, so look at the followings as suggestion, not critique.

    Above all, mind that artificer's power comes with UMD + self crafting + retain essence + craft reserve. It comes, in other terms, with an incredible single-minded synergy in letting it a caster without being a literal one.
    And he also is a caster.
    So the fighter should have a caster-like progression in non actual casting "things" (spell similars)
    Instead of item-buffing infusions only, the T1 fighter could also have strikes à la ToB, self buffing (adrenaline to improve physical, trance/concentration to improve willsaves and stuff), debuffing and battlefield control strikes.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Now the wizard can do all these things, without extreme cheese. he can also decide which of them he'd like to do that day. A tier 1 fighter should be on a similar level.
    I'm thinking meta-game level mechanics. The fighter gets to alter the narrative fairly directly. Take the mount spells - that could be handled by a broad skill able to pull animals into an area that makes sense, by calling an escaped horse or camel or something.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
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    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    I think this is about as a close as I can get it without writing an entirely new system.

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    The Fighter

    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: 1d10
    Starting Gold: 6d8x10 (270gp)

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    Craft Reserve
    M. Ready
    Stances
    1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Brew Potion, Master Craftsman, Pack Mule, Trapfinding
    10
    4
    1
    2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat
    25
    4
    2
    3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Uncanny Dodge
    40
    4
    2
    4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat
    60
    5
    2
    5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Problem Solver
    80
    5
    3
    6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat
    100
    6
    3
    7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Combat Edge +1
    150
    6
    3
    8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat
    200
    7
    4
    9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Craft Wondrous Item
    250
    7
    4
    10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat
    300
    8
    4
    11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Array of Stunts
    400
    8
    5
    12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat
    500
    9
    5
    13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Combat Edge +2
    700
    9
    5
    14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat
    900
    10
    6
    15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Forge Ring
    1200
    10
    6
    16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat
    1500
    11
    6
    17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Man of Action
    2000
    11
    7
    18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat
    2500
    12
    7
    19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Combat Edge +3
    3000
    12
    7
    20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus Feat, Lord of War
    4000
    13
    8

    Class Skills (8 + Int modifier): Appraise, Autohypnosis, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope.

    Weapon & Armor Proficiency
    A Fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armors, and all shields.

    Maneuvers & Stances
    A Fighter utilizes maneuvers and stances, extraordinary or supernatural expressions of martial arts, to help him deal with foes and other obstacles. Unlike a normal initiator, a Fighter does not have a discrete list of maneuvers or stances known, rather he is familiar with all martial maneuvers and simply needs time to ready them. A Fighter may ready maneuvers from all of the nine disciplines found in the Book of Nine Swords, as well as Amaranth Eclipse, Army of One, Black Rain, Chthonic Serpent, Coin's Edge, Dancing Goddess, Domestic Terrasque, Eternal Glacier, Golem Heart, Hero's Edge, Surreptitious Bandit, and Thunder Bolt.

    Once per day, as long as the Fighter has gotten 8 hours of rest, after 1 hour of practice, he may ready a number of maneuvers and stances up to the numbers given in the M. Ready and Stances columns in the table above, respectively. These maneuvers and stances are readied until his next practice. He may only ready maneuvers and stances once every 24 hours.

    To ready a maneuver he must have an initiator level equal to that required of other initiators for learning that maneuver. The Fighter is considered to have known any maneuvers he has readied (for the purposes of meeting prerequisites).

    After a Fighter readies his maneuvers he may use them at any time he is able to spend the appropriate initiation time (usually a standard, swift, or immediate action). After a Fighter uses a maneuver it is expended and cannot be used again until it is recovered. A Fighter recovers all of his expended maneuvers after 5 minutes of non-strenuous activity or by spending a swift action on his turn after making an attack or full-attack. He may not initiate maneuvers while he is recovering his maneuvers. Stances are not expended and thus do not need to be recovered.

    Master Craftsman (Ex): Whenever a Fighter crafts an item he may use magical tools and/or materials in order to create a magic item. When he does, he has an effective caster level equal to his Fighter level and may ignore any prerequisite spells needed to create the item so long as he possesses the appropriate item creation feat and the spell is of a level no higher than 1/2 his Fighter levels rounded up.

    When creating magic items other than potions and scrolls the Fighter crafts a masterwork item using magical tools and/or materials, making the appropriate Craft skill checks against the item's market value as a mundane item not a magic item. This costs the Fighter 1/2 the finished item's market value in GP for the materials and 1/25 the finished item's market value in XP.

    For example, if the Fighter wanted to create a Boat of Folding (CL 6), he would need to be 6th level or higher, build a masterwork boat with Craft (Woodworking) skill checks, and possess the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

    This ability allows the Fighter to craft alchemical items as though he were a spellcaster, and when using the Brew Potion feat he must make Craft (Alchemy) checks against the item's value.

    Craft Reserve
    A Fighter receives a pool of points he can spend instead of experience points when crafting a magic item. Each time the Fighter gains a new level, he receives a new craft reserve; leftover points from the previous level do not carry over. If the points are not spent, they are lost. A Fighter can also use his craft reserve to supplement the XP cost of the item he is making, taking a portion of the cost from his craft reserve and a portion from his own XP.

    Pack Mule (Ex): Fighters are used to long journeys with a heavy pack and the use of a wide variety of weaponry and equipment. A Fighter suffers no penalties for carrying a medium load, and may retrieve any stored item from his person as a move action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

    Trapfinding (Ex): Fighters can search for and disable traps in the same way Rogues can.

    Creation Feats
    A Fighter receives the Brew Potion feat as a bonus feat at 1st level, the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat as a bonus feat at 3rd level, the Craft Wondrous Item feat as a bonus feat at 9th level, and the Forge Ring feat as a bonus feat at 15th level. He need not meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats.

    Additionally, he may take other item creation feats using his effective caster level to meet the prerequisites.

    Bonus Feats
    At 2nd level and every even level thereafter, a Fighter gains a bonus feat from the list of Fighter Bonus Feats. He must meet all prerequisites of any feat gained in this way except for ability score requirements. Anytime the Fighter readies his maneuvers and stances he may choose to lose all Fighter Bonus Feats gained in this way to gain an equal number of new Fighter Bonus Feats that he meets the prerequisites for (save the ability score requirements).

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Barbarian.

    Problem Solver (Ex): Starting at 5th level, when a Fighter readies his maneuvers and stances he may also ready a number of contingent actions equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). Contingent actions are like readied actions (PHB 160) except that you may take them at any time in the next 24 hours and after you take a contingent action your initiative count does not change.

    Combat Edge (Ex): Starting at 7th level, the Fighter is treated for all beneficial purposes as a creature one size category larger than he is. At 13th level he is treated as a creature two size categories larger, and at 19th level he is treated as a creature three size categories larger. This ability does not allow the Fighter to wield oversized weapons without difficulty though it will increase his reach.

    Array of Stunts (Ex): Starting at 11th level, a Fighter does not lose his next turn's swift action after he uses an immediate action.

    Man of Action (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a Fighter may take two swift actions on his turn. Further, he may exchange two swift actions for an extra standard action.

    Lord of War (Ex): A 20th level Fighter is never surprised, never flat-footed, and cannot be flanked. If he threatens a creature that gains less than +1 to base attack bonus per HD, then that creature is flat-footed and considered flanked by the Fighter and all of his allies regardless of their actual positions. When he hits a creature with an attack of opportunity that creature must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 Fighter level + Dexterity modifier) to avoid being treated as helpless and struck by a coup de grace.


    What I don't like about it, compared to a Wizard or Cleric, is that any idiot could pick it up and be a very strong Tier 3 character, but it's very easy for poor player choice to result in a Wizard or Cleric build that's as weak as the CW Samurai.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2015-04-22 at 02:29 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Actually, that sounds like a high Tier 3, with the exception of Master Craftsman, which, unless I'm mistaken, is better than the Artificer and probably utterly broken.

    So, yes, I guess that's Tier 1. But not because he'd do anything really fighterish with it, but because he can copy an Artificer's entire shtick, which is copying a wizard's tricks via items.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2011-10-27 at 09:25 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Damn, that was fast work.

    It's good, it probably hits Tier 1, but I agree with Eldan, it only does it because of Master Craftsman (and that little bit of action economy breakage it gets at 5, 11 and 17). So yeah, it's Tier 1 because it's a variant of an existing Tier 1 class.
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Actually, that sounds like a high Tier 3, with the exception of Master Craftsman, which, unless I'm mistaken, is better than the Artificer and probably utterly broken.
    Well, it's different than the Artificer's ability, in some ways worse, in some ways better. The only real advantage I can see is that the Fighter is able to make his items a lot faster than an Artificer can. The Artificer of course has the advantages of being able to make magic items at +2 caster level (meaning scrolls one full spell level ahead of any caster), having a slightly bigger craft reserve, getting all the item creation feats, and getting nice stuff like retain essence, metamagic spell trigger and metamagic spell completion.

    The Artificer's Item Creation class feature is utterly broken after all, and I was aiming for something that would bring the Fighter to a similar power level.

    I'm gonna go ahead and eliminate the synergy bonuses part, because I had forgotten how easy Craft skill checks actually are.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2011-10-27 at 09:41 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Yeah, the problem here is that this guy will, similar to the artificer, be a wizard in disguise.

    He has full BAB and a few fighting abilities, but his best bet at being a tier one is carrying a stack of wands and pumping UMD.
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yeah, the problem here is that this guy will, similar to the artificer, be a wizard in disguise.
    Like I said, it's the best I can do without writing a completely new system. When the only way to reach Tier 1 is with spells, but you don't want to cast spells, ripping off the Artificer is the only thing that can be done.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2011-10-27 at 10:09 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Now, I haven't looked through all 20+ disciplines he gets, but I have to ask: are they varied enough to take on EVERY enemy in the game (see an earlier comment of mine)? The recovery mechanic is pretty awesome, and useful.

    I have to agree, though, that the crafting boosts this class most: but I think the maneuvers do as well. It feels like a wizard of strategy and techniques, to me, which is AWESOME.

    Ziegander, you are still the king of Fighter fixes.
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    And thus the point: you can't make a Tier 1 fighter.

    Oh, sure. You can make a Tier 1 class that fights. You can make a Tier 1 class that's called a fighter. And you can make a Tier 1 class that also happens to be a high Tier 3 fighter in addition to being a Tier 1 caster.

    The druid is already that last one. Uh ... twice.

    But you can't make a Tier 1 fighter because a fighter's schtick is, intrinsically, not about stopping time or creating new universes or starting the wightocalypse. It's about hitting, and hitting is a Tier 3 (maybe 2, if you're a DMM-persist cleric or in a powerful wildshape) activity at most.
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2011-10-27 at 10:15 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    Now, I haven't looked through all 20+ disciplines he gets, but I have to ask: are they varied enough to take on EVERY enemy in the game (see an earlier comment of mine)? The recovery mechanic is pretty awesome, and useful.
    They certainly help. There is a great mixture of mobility, melee, and ranged combat in those disciplines as well as elemental damage and DR negating. They offer a plethora of options and the ability to switch out what maneuvers and stances he uses on a day by day basis, as well as what fighter bonus feats he's got, really lends to his ability to deal with all comers.

    Ziegander, you are still the king of Fighter fixes.
    *Bow*

    I'm tempted to play a character using the Fightificer that's a "monk" with ranks in Craft (Alchemy) and Craft (Bookbinding) who fights while wearing no armor, carrying no shield, and wielding no weapon. He brews beers and meads that grant him various powers and keeps scrolls of ancestral wisdom. A Human allows the concept to work from level 1 (Improved Unarmed Strike and Scribe Scroll feats).
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2011-10-27 at 10:17 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    They certainly help. There is a great mixture of mobility, melee, and ranged combat in those disciplines as well as elemental damage and DR negating. They offer a plethora of options and the ability to switch out what maneuvers and stances he uses on a day by day basis, as well as what fighter bonus feats he's got, really lends to his ability to deal with all comers.
    OK, good. So, the basic question of versatility is answered. (Pardon my newness to ToB and its homebrew successors here). Basic attack and defense spells, the majority of normal-powered (HA!) spells on the Wizard's list are accounted for. Now?

    The big stuff. Gate. Wish. Genesis. Death Effects. Resurrection. Can a Discipline do that?

    [Note, I'm trying to determine the power of the class apart from what appears on first glance to be the most powerful part of the character.]
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    The big stuff. Gate. Wish. Genesis. Death Effects. Resurrection. Can a Discipline do that?
    No, no, sort of, and no. Disciplines are great: they give you all kinds of damage powers and some cool bonuses and resistances and options and IRON HEART SURGE! But they don't break the game the way spells do.
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    The big stuff. Gate. Wish. Genesis. Death Effects. Resurrection. Can a Discipline do that?
    Death effects, yes, but the rest, no. That's where he'll need to rely on Master Craftsman.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Death effects, yes, but the rest, no. That's where he'll need to rely on Master Craftsman.
    Ok... So, sounds like someone needs to make a specialized Arcane Discipline... HM. I WONDER WHO THAT SHOULD BE...

    Also, I think this class could benefit from your Techniques (which have already been mentioned in this thread).
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    I think, and I think this thread shows, that it's not possible to make a Tier 1 fighter. If you want to even the gap between fighters and wizards, it's better to bring the wizard down to tier 3. And there's no way to do that without throwing out almost the entire magic system and starting over.

    Which I think would make a more interesting game anyway.

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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    This thread interests me. I'm gonna give this 'create a tier 1 fighter' thing a try, once I have a little more time.
    Prestige Bard, updated for Pathfinder.

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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Some ideas that might help move the fighter closer to T1 without any special access to magic. Probably only somewhere in T2, but could probably put up an interesting fight against the T1 casters.
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    Offense
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    First, at least 2 BAB per level. maxing out at 8 attacks.
    Ability to wield oversized weapons to a limit of 1 size larger per level.
    Ability to make attacks touch attacks.
    Faster favoured enemy progression than the ranger. (every second level?)
    Unlimited AoO each round
    Charge through difficult terrain
    Big increases to crititical Threat range, (1 bigger per 4 levels?)
    Furious counterstrike (but divided by 3 and not limited to 6)
    Lots of manuvers and stances, using all diciplines. (likely with ability to use all weapons as aptitude weapons).
    Proficency with all weapons.


    Defense
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    d12 hd. Extra HP equal to your fighter level gained each level (retroactivly).
    Sr equalt to 10 + (2*Level).
    Fast healing upgrading to regeneration.
    DR/- equal to at least level
    Immunities to most status effects, and the common stuff like poison and disease.
    Immunity to all forms of scrying, including deific.
    Full good Saves.
    Uncanny Dodge and improved.
    Evasion and improved
    Mettle and improved
    Immunity to aging
    Steely Resolve, but 5 every odd level and holds damage for as many turns as you have levels.


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    Then throw in all the features of each ToB Class. Including the manuvers.
    6 + int skills at minimum, and a wider skill list (UMD, Ijastu focus, and lucid dreaming should be included).
    +1/level untyped bonus to all skills
    Fighter bonus feats become float feats changable daily, and an extra 2 feats per level.
    Lore/Bardic knowledge
    Tounge of sun and moon like ability, only not limited to living and earlier
    Rerolls. Lot's of rerolls. (1/level/encounter?)
    Can take ten on one skill per level, regardless of where or not taking ten would normally be allowed.
    Stance mastery, but at levels 10 and 20.


    Movement
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    Then abilities to Ignore ACP and theslow move speed from armour.
    Monk fast movement and slow fall, without limitations
    Fly speed equalt to twice move speed at good manuverability.
    Monk like abundant step, but far more uses, and per encounter.
    +Level to Initative


  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Thumbs down Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    My personal thought on how to make a T1 fighter is to look at mythology. Mythological heroes tend to have at least one of three main factors going for them. First, rather than being hulk smash types, they overcome their foes with a combination of power, skill, and guile. Heracles strangled the Neman Lion, but he burned the heads of the hydra, shot the Stymphalian birds, and diverted a river to clean the Augean stables. He's a versatile man. Second, they literally do the impossible. Heracles diverts a river, holds up the sky, creates giant rock pillars as guideposts, and wrestled the dog who guards Hell itself into submission and dragged it kicking and snarling across Greece. He is considered the son of a God, and for good reason. Lastly, they have legendary treasures helping them, but - and this is key - those treasures, as strong as they are, are only legends because a hero used them. There are no legends of the Neman Lion pelt.

    With that in mind, here are my preliminary suggestions:
    Warblade maneuvers. That handles the power.
    8 skill points per level. Keep the fighter skills, but maybe add in some new ones too. Nothing like disable device or UMD, but things like spot, listen, bluff, etc..
    One feat per level.
    One extra "versatile" feat every three? levels. These can be switched out each day, like a cleric's spells. All prerequisites must be met, but can be met by versatile feats.
    A very limited enchant item power. I'm thinking just ape the artificer's power, but no limited-use items or rings - limit it to weapons, armor, shields, magic devices. Said items are also only usable by the fighter, or by someone who earns them from him - these are his legendary tools, not toys he makes to give away like Santa. On the other hand, most should count as extraordinary or supernatural rather than magic. This definitely needs more thinking.
    Legendary abilities. The ability for the fighter to break the rules. I'm not sure how I'd do this, but I'm thinking a set of legendary abilities to choose from (e.g., legendary strength, legendary swordsman, legendary archer, legendary skill, legendary senses) that give him increasing powers with that specialty. A legendary archer might start off just treating his bow as a melee weapon for all beneficial purposes, then gain the ability to ignore range penalties, moderate weather, and some cover, then finally the ability to ignore maximum range, any weather, and any cover. A legendary strongman might add his level to his strength, then later multiply his carrying capacity by 100, add 20 to strength checks, and ignore hardness, and finally ignore carrying capacity and add 100 to strength checks, and gain a disintegrate-like power when attacking inanimate objects. Again, this needs a lot of work.

    As for how he gets these abilities? He basically becomes larger than life because of his own legend. He draws on the legend itself to do the extraordinary, and his extraordinary deeds create new legends. In effect, he's something similar to a God, empowered by the hopes and dreams of the world rather than the worship of believers.

    Sound like what you had in mind?

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by jojolagger View Post
    Some ideas that might help move the fighter closer to T1 without any special access to magic. Probably only somewhere in T2, but could probably put up an interesting fight against the T1 casters.
    Spoiler
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    Offense
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    First, at least 2 BAB per level. maxing out at 8 attacks.
    Ability to wield oversized weapons to a limit of 1 size larger per level.
    Ability to make attacks touch attacks.
    Faster favoured enemy progression than the ranger. (every second level?)
    Unlimited AoO each round
    Charge through difficult terrain
    Big increases to crititical Threat range, (1 bigger per 4 levels?)
    Furious counterstrike (but divided by 3 and not limited to 6)
    Lots of manuvers and stances, using all diciplines. (likely with ability to use all weapons as aptitude weapons).
    Proficency with all weapons.


    Defense
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    d12 hd. Extra HP equal to your fighter level gained each level (retroactivly).
    Sr equalt to 10 + (2*Level).
    Fast healing upgrading to regeneration.
    DR/- equal to at least level
    Immunities to most status effects, and the common stuff like poison and disease.
    Immunity to all forms of scrying, including deific.
    Full good Saves.
    Uncanny Dodge and improved.
    Evasion and improved
    Mettle and improved
    Immunity to aging
    Steely Resolve, but 5 every odd level and holds damage for as many turns as you have levels.


    Utility
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    Then throw in all the features of each ToB Class. Including the manuvers.
    6 + int skills at minimum, and a wider skill list (UMD, Ijastu focus, and lucid dreaming should be included).
    +1/level untyped bonus to all skills
    Fighter bonus feats become float feats changable daily, and an extra 2 feats per level.
    Lore/Bardic knowledge
    Tounge of sun and moon like ability, only not limited to living and earlier
    Rerolls. Lot's of rerolls. (1/level/encounter?)
    Can take ten on one skill per level, regardless of where or not taking ten would normally be allowed.
    Stance mastery, but at levels 10 and 20.


    Movement
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    Then abilities to Ignore ACP and theslow move speed from armour.
    Monk fast movement and slow fall, without limitations
    Fly speed equalt to twice move speed at good manuverability.
    Monk like abundant step, but far more uses, and per encounter.
    +Level to Initative

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    Also, Wizards every where cried out and were suddenly silenced.

    This is at least tier 1, if only because it can't possibly get hurt.
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    While this is by no means a Tier 1 Fighter (probably Tier 3?), it might be a good start. It has party support via marshal auras, the ability to take immediate actions, and several abilities that increase its defensive effectiveness. I couldn't think of anything for Lv 13 though, so it's a dead level for the time being.

    Fighter

    Game Rule Information

    Abilities: Strength and Constitution are the two most important abilities for most fighters, increasing their damage with most weapons and granting them more hit points. Archers and lightly-armored fighters benefit from a high Dexterity score, and a good Charisma increases the fighter’s bolstering auras.

    Alignment: Any

    Hit Die: d10

    Starting Gold: 6d4 x 10 (150 gp)

    Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int Modifier) x 4

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int Modifier


    {table=head]Level|
    Base Attack Bonus
    |
    Fort Save
    |
    Ref Save
    |
    Will Save
    |
    Special
    |
    AC Bonus
    |
    Minor Auras Known
    |
    Major Auras Known


    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Bonus Feat, Minor Aura, Weapon of Legacy|+0|1|0

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Bonus Feat, Major Aura (+1), Uncanny Dodge|+0|1|1

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Armored Mobility (1)|+0|2|1

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Bonus Feat, Immediate Action (Move)|+0|2|1

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Improved Uncanny Dodge, Major Aura (+2)|+1|3|2

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Bonus Feat|+1|3|2

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    | Armored Mobility (2)|+1|4|2

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Bonus Feat, Major Aura (+3)|+1|4|2

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Armor Mastery, Improved Flanking|+1|5|3

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Bonus Feat, Immediate Action (Standard)|+2|5|3

    11th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Armored Mobility (3), Major Aura (+4)|+2|5|3

    12th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |Bonus Feat|+2|6|3

    13th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |-|+2|6|3

    14th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Bonus Feat, Major Aura (+5)|+2|6|4

    15th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Armored Mobility (4), Overwhelming Assault|+3|7|4

    16th|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Bonus Feat, Immediate Action (Full)|+3|7|4

    17th|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Impetuous Endurance, Major Aura (+6)|+3|7|4

    18th|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Bonus Feat|+3|7|4

    19th|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Battlefield Juggernaut|+3|8|4

    20th|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |Bonus Feat, Legendary Warrior, Major Aura (+7)|+4|8| 5[/table]

    Class Features: All of the following are class features of the fighter class.

    Spoiler
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    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and will all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

    AC Bonus (Ex): The fighter is highly trained at dodging blows, and he has a sixth sense that lets him avoid even unanticipated attacks. The fighter adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level and every five fighter levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th).

    Aura (Ex): The fighter exerts an effect on allies in his vicinity. He can learn to produce different effects, or auras, over the course of his career. The fighter may project one minor aura and (starting at 2nd level) one major at a time.

    Projecting an aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until the fighter uses a free action to dismiss it or activates another aura of the same kind (major or minor). A fighter can have an aura active continually; thus, an aura can be in effect at the start of a combat encounter even before the fighter takes his first turn.

    Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, direction, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. A fighter sizes up the enemy, allies, and the terrain, then gives allies the direction that they can use to do their best.

    Unless otherwise noted, a fighter’s aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including himself) who can hear the fighter. An ally must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand the fighter’s language to gain the bonus. Fighter’s aura is dismissed if he is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies.

    A fighter begins play knowing one minor aura of his choice. As his fighter level increases, he gains access to new auras, as indicated on the table above.

    All bonuses granted by a fighter’s auras are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other.

    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

    These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

    Minor Aura: A minor aura lets allies add the fighter’s Charisma bonus (minimum 1) to certain rolls.

    • Accurate Strike: Bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
    • Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
    • Demand Fortitude: Bonus on Fortitude saves.
    • Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
    • Force of Will: Bonus on Will saves.
    • Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
    • Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
    • Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
    • Motivate Constitution: Bonus on Constitution checks and Constitution-based skill checks.
    • Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
    • Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.
    • Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
    • Motivate Wisdom: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
    • Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.
    • Watchful Eye: Bonus on Reflex saves.


    Weapon of Legacy: A fighter starts play with a legacy weapon of his choice (legacy weapons can be found in various books such as Weapons of Legacy). The fighter still needs to meet the weapon’s wielder requirements and complete the legacy rituals in order to unlock the weapon’s special abilities, but unlike most characters, he does not have to play the personal costs of the weapon in order to advance its power.

    A fighter inherently knows where his legacy weapon is at all times as if he and the item were under the effects of discern location.

    Major Aura: Beginning at 2nd level, a fighter can project a major aura in addition to his minor aura. A major aura lets allies add +1 to certain rolls. This bonus improves by +1 at 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th level.

    • Hardy Soldiers: The fighter’s allies gain damage reduction equal to the amount of bonus the aura provides. For example, if the fighter is 10th level, everyone affected gains DR 3/-.
    • Motivate Ardor: Bonus on damage rolls.
    • Motivate Attack: Bonus on melee attack rolls.
    • Motivate Care: Bonus to Armor Class.
    • Motivate Urgency: Allies’ base land speed is increased by a number of feet equal to 5 x the amount of bonus the aura provides. For example, the allies of a 10th level fighter (+3 major aura) add 15 feet to their base land speed.
    • Resilient Troops: Bonus on all saves.
    • Steady Hand: Bonus on ranged attack rolls.


    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

    If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

    Armored Mobility (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter’s ability to fight in armor is greatly improved. Whenever he is wearing armor, the fighter reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0), increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1, and reduces his movement speed penalty by 5 feet. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum of -4 reduction of the armor check penalty, a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed, and reduces his movement speed penalty by another 5 feet.

    Immediate Action (Ex): At 4th level, a fighter can immediately make a move action. However, this comes at a cost and for 1 round the fighter is fatigued and suffers a -2 penalty to his Armor Class for 1 round. A fighter can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Dexterity modifier (minimum 1 per day).

    At 10th level, a fighter can immediately make a standard action. At 16th level he can immediately make a full-round action.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked; he can react to opponents on opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attack has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels.

    If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

    Armor Mastery (Ex): Starting at 9th level, a whenever a fighter is wearing armor he gains 25% fortification and DR/- equal to one-half the armor bonus provided by his armor. For example, a fighter wearing +1 full plate (+9 AC) gains DR 4/-.

    Improved Flanking (Ex): A fighter of 9th level or higher becomes an excellent tactical combatant. When flanking an opponent, the fighter gains a +4 bonus on attacks instead of a +2 bonus on attacks.

    Overwhelming Assault (Ex): Starting at 15th level, a fighter always deals maximum weapon damage with his normal attacks. A fighter must still roll critical damage normally.

    Impetuous Endurance (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a fighter’s spirit enables him to push himself beyond the normal limits of endurance. He no longer automatically fails a saving throw on a roll of 1. He might still fail the save if his result fails to equal or beat the DC.

    Battlefield Juggernaut (Ex): At 19th level and higher, a fighter becomes a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. He permanently gains DR 5/- (which stacks with any damage reduction he gains from the Armor Mastery class ability) and while wearing armor his fortification increases to 50% and his armor bonus to AC by 2.

    Legendary Warrior (Ex): At 20th level a fighter’s weapon mastery is complete. Any attacks the fighter makes with his legacy weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (x2 becomes x3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding his legacy weapon.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiguy View Post
    I think, and I think this thread shows, that it's not possible to make a Tier 1 fighter. If you want to even the gap between fighters and wizards, it's better to bring the wizard down to tier 3. And there's no way to do that without throwing out almost the entire magic system and starting over.
    Sometimes. I honestly regard D&D as two separate games on occasion. There's Tier 3-4, where you play epic (but limited) heroes, and then there's Tier 1-2, where you play demigods.

    They're both fun games! And what's great is that if you know the core mechanics for one, you know the core mechanics for the other. But they're different games.
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Sometimes. I honestly regard D&D as two separate games on occasion. There's Tier 3-4, where you play epic (but limited) heroes, and then there's Tier 1-2, where you play demigods.

    They're both fun games! And what's great is that if you know the core mechanics for one, you know the core mechanics for the other. But they're different games.
    That's my approach as well, and the one I'd recommend.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    All you have to do to make Fighters Tier 1 is make them gain Leadership as a bonus feat at level 1, and FORBID all other classes from having access to it.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phosphate View Post
    All you have to do to make Fighters Tier 1 is make them gain Leadership as a bonus feat at level 1, and FORBID all other classes from having access to it.
    The only way that would help is if they had Wizard cohorts... Which kinda defeats the whole purpose.
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    The only way that would help is if they had Wizard cohorts... Which kinda defeats the whole purpose.
    It is SORT of the only thing I can think about...well, or you can do the BLOCK THE EARTH thing, naturally.

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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    I can think of only one Tier 1 fighter from fiction. Chuck Norris. Think about the jokes...

    Created the universe by roundhouse kick to the face: Nothingness experienced pain through his sheer prowess and was forced to evolve into something to give context to its suffering. Not magical but universe creation.

    He does not read, he simply stared down the book until it tells him what he wants to know: Fear of the man creates life or at least animates inanimate objects...

    He has only two speeds; walk and kill: Death effects and temporal manipulation.

    His beard does not conceal a chin but another fist: Shapeshifting and bodily adaption.

    The only sound that can be heard in space is the sound of Chuck Norris roundhouse kicking someone else: Screw you physics!

    Chuck Norris was actually the fourth wise man but...yadda yadda yadda: Time travel and rewriting the circumstances of reality.

    Rule one: never pull a gun on Chuck Norris while you are withing drop-kicking range. Rule two: you are always within drop kicking range: Ranged attacks without any form of magical or projectile influence, dimensional translocation and future prediction.

    And also...have you ever seen Walker Texas Ranger or Lone Wolf McQuaid? He's so manly that the cars he drives grow extra engines and burrow speeds. In the Octagon, he cause a man who couldn't be beaten in combat [GM Fiat/his contract said so] to flee so he could be defeated by Chuck Norris fiat.

    The only other comparable is Flex Mentalo...the master of Matter over Mind...
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    The big stuff. Gate. Wish. Genesis. Death Effects. Resurrection.
    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    Ok... So, sounds like someone needs to make a specialized Arcane Discipline... HM. I WONDER WHO THAT SHOULD BE...
    Hm... so... a special spell-like discipline that somehow offers up PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER while managing to not be unbalanced when compared against the lowly Nine Swords disciplines... I have an idea.

    The principle that ties the discipline together will be Psionic Focus. Or rather something that operates in a nearly identical way but that is not actually Psionic Focus. In order to expend a readied maneuver of this spell-like discipline the initiator must also expend his focus. In order to recover an expended maneuver from this spell-like discipline the initiator must regain his focus. These maneuvers stay readied until they have been expended, even if the initiator uses something like Adaptive Style to change their readied maneuvers, and they explicitly do not recover at the start of each encounter or after any period of time. It may not work out to be enough of a limitation, but I suppose it is worth a try.
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    If you allow Fighter to punch reality so hard reality conforms to Fighter's will, this'll probably work. Anything short of that will have trouble being Tier 1.
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    Default Re: What would a T1 Fighter look like? Lets Invent Something :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Hm... so... a special spell-like discipline that somehow offers up PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER while managing to not be unbalanced when compared against the lowly Nine Swords disciplines... I have an idea.

    The principle that ties the discipline together will be Psionic Focus. Or rather something that operates in a nearly identical way but that is not actually Psionic Focus. In order to expend a readied maneuver of this spell-like discipline the initiator must also expend his focus. In order to recover an expended maneuver from this spell-like discipline the initiator must regain his focus. These maneuvers stay readied until they have been expended, even if the initiator uses something like Adaptive Style to change their readied maneuvers, and they explicitly do not recover at the start of each encounter or after any period of time. It may not work out to be enough of a limitation, but I suppose it is worth a try.
    Now that's a fix! I'll PEACH, if you like.
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    I cannot tell you the number of times I laughed while reading this.

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