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    Default You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    The Vitalist

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    "How? How are you still alive?" "You can cut my body to pieces. You can throw me over a cliff, or set me on fire. You can even cut my head off. But you'll never crush my soul. And as long as my soul stays intact, I'll keep getting back up until I've beaten you!"

    Prerequisites:
    To become a vitalist, a character must meet the following prerequisites:

    Base Saving Throws: Fortitude +3, Reflex +3, Will +3
    Feats: Toughness, Improved Toughness, Endurance
    Character Level: The character must be at least 5th level
    Special: The vitalist must have a Constitution score of at least 16. The vitalist must have been severely damaged in combat, to the point that his hit points dropped below 1 HP per character level, and then won the battle without dying. (A level 7 barbarian would have needed to have been brought down to 6 or fewer hit points)

    Hit Dice: d12

    Class Skills: The vitalist's class skills are Climb, Concentration, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Profession, and Swim.

    Skill Points: 2+Int per level

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Defense Attack, Survival

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Mettle

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Real Steadfast Determination

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Sentinel

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Perfect Health

    6th|
    +6
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Maximum Toughness

    7th|
    +7
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Vital Spirit

    8th|
    +8
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Body of a Monster

    9th|
    +9
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Improved Mettle, Might Makes Right

    10th|
    +10
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Shadow of the Tarrasque
    [/table]

    Class Features: The following are the vitalist's class features.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The vitalist gains no additional proficiencies.

    Defense Attack (Ex): The vitalist's strength lies not in the weight behind his blows, but the ability to shrug the blows that follow off. When the vitalist makes his first attack of the round, he may take a penalty to all his attack rolls, up to his Base Attack Bonus. He gains Damage Reduction X/-, where X is the penalty he took, until the beginning of his next turn. A vitalist may not use this ability during the same round that he uses the Power Attack feat.

    Survival (Ex): A vitalist is not only immune to damage. He is also capable of easily shrugging off poisons, stunning, and other magical effects and diseases. He gains the Diehard, Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflex feats as bonus feats.

    Mettle (Ex): Where some men with the same natural hardiness would only be sickened instead of nauseated, the vitalist instead just gets angry. At 2nd level, the vitalist gains the Mettle ability. If he succeeds a saving throw against a Fortitude (Partial) or Will (Half) effect, he ignores all effects of that spell.

    Real Steadfast Determination (Ex): With every spell, there is always a chance, however small, that a character will succumb to the magic. Perhaps this is due to an increase in power on the arcanist's part, or perhaps it is due to a lowered immune system. Perhaps it is just the result of a sadistic god.

    The vitalist is so resilient, however, that no matter what the reason, he is not at the same risk. Starting at 3rd level, the vitalist add his Constitution modifier to his Reflex and Will saves (in addition to his Dexterity/Wisdom). He no longer automatically fails a saving throw on a natural 1, though he may still fail if his adjusted save is not high enough to meet the DC of the effect he is saving against.

    Sentinel (Su): A vitalist's allies are not nearly as tough and manly as him. That's okay. The little squishy wizard can be little and squishy if he wants. The vitalist is more than man enough for the two of them.

    Starting at 4th level, the vitalist emits an aura of protection. All allies within 60 feet of him act as if they were protected by the shield other spell, allowing the vitalist to absorb half of the damage they take. Intelligent enemies become aware of this effect immediately after they strike the vitalist's allies, and most will attempt to take the vitalist down after seeing it.

    Perfect Health (Ex): As the vitalist advances in level, he steadily becomes harder and harder to kill. At 5th level, the vitalist becomes immune to all diseases, including supernatural diseases such as mummy rot and lycanthropy. Additionally, he may use iron heart surge, as the maneuver, as a maneuver-like ability at-will.

    Maximum Toughness (Ex): At 6th level, the vitalist treats all his hit dice (from all class levels and racial hit dice) as if he had rolled maximum hit points. From 6th level on, the vitalist automatically gains full hit points at every class level.

    Vital Spirit (Ex): At 7th level, a vitalist becomes immune to the decaying effects of negative energy. He is immune to negative energy damage, as well as negative levels. The vitalist is not immune to the persistent negative level that comes from holding a weapon of an opposed alignment (such as an evil vitalist holding a holy sword)

    Body of a Monster (Ex): At 8th level, a vitalist is the epitome of gutsy. No matter how many times you hit him, he just keeps getting back up. And while other characters might leave their vitals open or eventually succumb to their enemy's superior luck, the vitalist is in complete control of his health. He never takes more damage than he wants.

    Starting at 8th level, the vitalist becomes immune to critical hits and stunning. (This ability also grants him immunity to several other things that require a creature to be vulnerable to critical hits, such as Sneak Attack, Death Attack, Sudden Strike, Skirmish, and etc)

    Improved Mettle (Ex): At 9th level, the vitalist's Mettle ability improves. He still takes no effect on a successful saving throw, but if he fails his Fortitude or Will save against a Fortitude (Partial) or Will (Half) effect, he only takes the partial effect.

    Might Makes Right (Ex): A vitalist's incredible stamina is beyond that of any living creature, to the point where it seems unnatural. Starting at 9th level, the vitalist becomes immune to ability damage to his physical ability scores, as well as to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless that Fortitude save also applies against objects.

    Shadow of the Tarrasque (Ex): Starting at 10th level, the vitalist becomes as purely immortal as the creature most like him, the legendary tarrasque.

    The vitalist gains the regeneration extraordinary ability. Nothing deals lethal damage to the vitalist. He heals a number of nonlethal points of damage per round equal to his Constitution modifier. If the vitalist is subject to an instant death effect, he is instead takes enough nonlethal damage to put him to -10 hit points if he were at maximum hit points. (So if he had 858 maximum hit points, he would take 868 points of nonlethal damage from a death effect) Any severed body parts grow back in 1d4 hours (even the head), though the vitalist can reattach the severed part to its stump instantly by holding it against the stump.

    In order to kill a vitalist, a creature must deal nonlethal damage to him equal to his maximum hit points plus 10, then use a wish or miracle spell to keep him dead.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2014-03-09 at 06:20 AM.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

    This is awesome. However, due to the sheer overwhelming power of the class, he needs more prerequisites to get into it. Seriously, he gets 4 feats for one level of this. That's a heck of a lot in a one level dip, and it isn't counting the actual class ability he gets at that level as well.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

    This is awesome. However, due to the sheer overwhelming power of the class, he needs more prerequisites to get into it. Seriously, he gets 4 feats for one level of this. That's a heck of a lot in a one level dip, and it isn't counting the actual class ability he gets at that level as well.
    I don't really value Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, or Iron Will as feats. They're really really subpar. Diehard is great, but the other three aren't really worth mentioning. (Seriously, it's worse than just having Divine Grace, which a paladin gets at level two)

    A +2 to every save barely makes up for having to take Toughness and Endurance, in my opinion, but okay. I'll throw some skill prereqs on there.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    ADD IN A ROLEPLAYING REQUISITE!!!

    like.. being brought to 1 HP but no lower on at least 2 occasions.

    sort of liek teh invisible lbade needin got solo an CR = encounter.

    at least that is what i would love to see in this.

    more fluff for the fluffness!

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
    ADD IN A ROLEPLAYING REQUISITE!!!

    like.. being brought to 1 HP but no lower on at least 2 occasions.

    sort of liek teh invisible lbade needin got solo an CR = encounter.

    at least that is what i would love to see in this.

    more fluff for the fluffness!
    I added a slightly easier version of your suggested prerequisite.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Y'know, now that you mention Paladins, they'd be a somewhat nice base for this, although Monk is probably still your best choice (seriously, this plus Improved Evasion? Kickass). Besides, this guy just seems like the type who would wade into combat barehanded and bare chested and start ripping people apart.

    And yeah, he needed that RP prereq (which is kind of what I meant instead of skills, sorry if I didn't make that clear).

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Awesome. BULLET PROOF characters. I love playing them. I LOVE THEM. And this guy? Pretty close to bullet proof, him.

    My one complaint would be the Craft tag-on. It doesn't fit the fluff. Maybe Con score? I couldn't imagine a wizard taking this, for sure.
    Last edited by SamBurke; 2011-10-30 at 12:11 AM.
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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Y'know, now that you mention Paladins, they'd be a somewhat nice base for this, although Monk is probably still your best choice (seriously, this plus Improved Evasion? Kickass). Besides, this guy just seems like the type who would wade into combat barehanded and bare chested and start ripping people apart.
    A paladin (without mulitclassing) wouldn't get into this PrC until ninth level. (Due to the save prereqs, which was the major reason I didn't have harsher prereqs before)

    Monk would be alright, but the problem with using a monk is he has lower AC than guy walking around in full plate, and if you were solo-monk getting into this class, you lost at least 2 points of BAB, more if you were going for Improved Evasion, which limits the return you get on Defense Attack (It's still a decent option though, and the bonus feats from monk soften the blow of the harsh feat prereqs)

    And yeah, he needed that RP prereq (which is kind of what I meant instead of skills, sorry if I didn't make that clear).
    Well, now he has both, and I think together along with the other prereqs, they more than justify granting immortality as a capstone!

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Actually, I would make one of his prereqs be non-caster, and cannot later take caster levels. Spells totally throw off the whole feel of the class.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    Awesome. BULLET PROOF characters. I love playing them. I LOVE THEM. And this guy? Pretty close to bullet proof, him.
    Why thank you very much!

    My one complaint would be the Craft tag-on. It doesn't fit the fluff. Maybe Con score? I couldn't imagine a wizard taking this, for sure.
    Yeah, I originally put it in to make the prereqs harder, but now that I have the RP prereq, I think I'll take it back out. And I don't approve of ability score prerequisites for classes (One of the many reasons I will never play AD&D ever again)

    Actually, I would make one of his prereqs be non-caster, and cannot later take caster levels. Spells totally throw off the whole feel of the class.
    You would remove the paladin, ranger, martial cleric, wildshape-focused druid, and gish from the ability to be manly if you did that.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    This is awesome. However, due to the sheer overwhelming power of the class, he needs more prerequisites to get into it. Seriously, he gets 4 feats for one level of this. That's a heck of a lot in a one level dip, and it isn't counting the actual class ability he gets at that level as well.
    I don't know know. You need three feats, two of which are crappy (Endurance and Toughness), and the save bonus most likely require either multiclassing or cross-classing-- off the top of my head, the only things I can think of with all good saves are the monk and favored soul. The role-playing requirement is still kind of lenient... how about "must have been dropped to negative hit points during an encounter, and have subsequently been healed and returned to the fight?"

    And as for the class...

    Defense Attack isn't a big deal- sure, you'll survive better, but you're not going to be contributing so much.

    Survival is a pretty huge ability, I must say- Diehard is a pretty good, flavorful feat- maybe one that should replace Endurance in the prereqs?- but the other three amount to a +2 bonus to all saves.

    Mettle- I thought this only applied to Fortitude saves? I may be wrong.

    Real Steadfast Determination is probably alright, although you might want to reword it- as it is, it could easily be construed as meaning that he always succeeds on a natural one. ("He no longer fails any saving throw on a die roll of a natural 1.")

    Sentinel- the real reason this class is useful. A tank needs some way of making the enemy focus on him, after all, and this is an exceptionally useful way, although the flavor is a bit odd, at least in my mind. Especially the bit about intelligent enemies automatically becoming aware of him and focusing on the Sentinel... seems to me it would be smarter to ignore the little putz who keeps dealing ineffective damage to me and strangle this wizard- even half damage will kill him pretty quickly.

    Perfect Health- not sure that there's such a thing as a "maneuver like ability." Might be more graceful to say that he the maneuver is never expended... or just write out the ability, possibly in a more focused manner than the original maneuver.

    Maximum Toughness- very nice, but since you're taking 50%+ of all damage being dealt to the party, kind of needed.

    Vital Spirit- again, strong, but I don't think it's overwhelmingly so. I might take out the bit about ignoring negative levels for resurrection... it becomes moot at 10th level, and in the meantime, you can cut out cheese like suicide-Reincarnate until you wind up as a bugbear or something.

    Body of a Monster- not much to say, it seems pretty solid. Crits and Precision damage generally don't come up enough for a PC to make this unbalanced, at least in my experience.

    Improved Mettle- now all I need is some way to get Improved Evasion, and they'll NEVER stop me! Muahahahaha!

    Shadow of the Tarrasque- Just...

    First of all, that's a preposterous amount of regeneration. A ring of regeneration costs ninety THOUSAND gold, and regenerates one point per HOUR. Class level? Madness. I'd drop it to Constitution Modifier and call it still really powerful.

    And I really don't think he needs to be quite so hard to permanently kill, especially since the only penalty is a measly 5,000 gold for Raise Dead. He's a legendary badass, yes, but not the Tarrasque. Decapitation should leave him dead, unless an ally jams his head back on within... oh, let's say a minute per point of Constitution. Dropping him to - (max HP +10) should kill him-- and at anything less than, say, -20, he should be regenerating awfully slowly.

    And what's this about Miracle possibly failing to keep him dead? A god may not pay too much attention to a 3rd level cleric, but he probably only has a handful of 17th level ones. The spell lets you duplicate any number of instant-death effects. I'd say the very POINT of the spell is that your god is your buddy, and that he's willing to directly intercede on your behalf.

    Remember, what's scary for a monster isn't great for a player. If a character (with already insanely high saves, and probably AC and DR) needs ridiculously massive damage AND one of the two most powerful spells in the game to keep him dead, that character isn't going to be challenged.


    That all being said, I don't think it's too bad, apart from the aforementioned points. It's probably OK if the character is hard to kill, since he's not going to be doing a huge amount of damage. But... it shouldn't be tarrasque-hard to kill him.

    EDIT: Wow, did I get swordsage'd in the time it took to write this.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-10-30 at 12:20 AM.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    WOOT!!

    i still love you!


    I have to admit that neo seraphi and Jiriku are like the 2 coolesta nd most bad arse Homebrewers ever.


    also I disagre with your ability score pre reqs for classes..


    thats one reason why paladins are useless in 3rd ed.. if they had pre reqs still... (then again that is like a 36 point buy for the paladin)
    Last edited by Kenneth; 2011-10-30 at 12:31 AM.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    I must be the only person ever who uses a 42 point buy when I bother with point buy (I hate it, random rolls are much better IMHO).

    I also disagree with the stat prereq comment; he should be required to have a Con stat of significant value to do this ("In order to enter this class, you must be this beefy..." ).

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I don't know know. You need three feats, two of which are crappy (Endurance and Toughness), and the save bonus most likely require either multiclassing or cross-classing-- off the top of my head, the only things I can think of with all good saves are the monk and favored soul. The role-playing requirement is still kind of lenient... how about "must have been dropped to negative hit points during an encounter, and have subsequently been healed and returned to the fight?"
    Alright

    Survival is a pretty huge ability, I must say- Diehard is a pretty good, flavorful feat- maybe one that should replace Endurance in the prereqs?- but the other three amount to a +2 bonus to all saves.
    Diehard has Endurance as a prerequisite. I don't see the point of taking Endurance out and putting Diehard in when you would most likely just need to take Endurance to qualify for it anyway.

    Mettle- I thought this only applied to Fortitude saves? I may be wrong.
    You are indeed wrong. The hexblade (from Complete Warrior) states it very clearly.

    Real Steadfast Determination is probably alright, although you might want to reword it- as it is, it could easily be construed as meaning that he always succeeds on a natural one. ("He no longer fails any saving throw on a die roll of a natural 1.")
    Alright, I'll fix it.

    Sentinel- the real reason this class is useful. A tank needs some way of making the enemy focus on him, after all, and this is an exceptionally useful way, although the flavor is a bit odd, at least in my mind. Especially the bit about intelligent enemies automatically becoming aware of him and focusing on the Sentinel... seems to me it would be smarter to ignore the little putz who keeps dealing ineffective damage to me and strangle this wizard- even half damage will kill him pretty quickly.
    That second part is roleplay only. It is not a mind-affecting ability or a compulsion or an illusion. It's a suggestion for how a DM should act. As for the automatically becoming aware, the crusader's protection mechanics act the same way, so I figured it was fine.

    Perfect Health- not sure that there's such a thing as a "maneuver like ability." Might be more graceful to say that he the maneuver is never expended... or just write out the ability, possibly in a more focused manner than the original maneuver.
    Of course there's no such thing, but I just made it up. So the reader can deal with it. It's pretty clear what I mean anyway.

    Maximum Toughness- very nice, but since you're taking 50%+ of all damage being dealt to the party, kind of needed.
    Indeed.

    Vital Spirit- again, strong, but I don't think it's overwhelmingly so. I might take out the bit about ignoring negative levels for resurrection... it becomes moot at 10th level, and in the meantime, you can cut out cheese like suicide-Reincarnate until you wind up as a bugbear or something.
    Alright fair enough.

    Body of a Monster- not much to say, it seems pretty solid. Crits and Precision damage generally don't come up enough for a PC to make this unbalanced, at least in my experience.
    Immunity to stunning is nice though. The heavy fortification is mostly just gravy.

    Improved Mettle- now all I need is some way to get Improved Evasion, and they'll NEVER stop me! Muahahahaha!
    Technically, you could accomplish this with a 2 level dip into both monk and rogue! (and monk 2 gets you the saves you needed anyway)

    Shadow of the Tarrasque- Just...

    First of all, that's a preposterous amount of regeneration. A ring of regeneration costs ninety THOUSAND gold, and regenerates one point per HOUR. Class level? Madness. I'd drop it to Constitution Modifier and call it still really powerful.
    Alright then.

    And I really don't think he needs to be quite so hard to permanently kill, especially since the only penalty is a measly 5,000 gold for Raise Dead. He's a legendary badass, yes, but not the Tarrasque. Decapitation should leave him dead, unless an ally jams his head back on within... oh, let's say a minute per point of Constitution. Dropping him to - (max HP +10) should kill him-- and at anything less than, say, -20, he should be regenerating awfully slowly.
    Ahem. I believe you are confusing the regeneration ability with the fast healing ability. Regeneration turns all damage the character receives into nonlethal damage. No amount of nonlethal damage will kill you. That's why most creatures with regeneration are dealt lethal damage by a specific type of energy, generally acid or fire. The tarrasque is not damaged by any type of energy, which is why you need a wish to keep him dead.

    That said, since I'm not giving him any elemental weaknesses (as they don't make any sense for any random humanoid to have the same weaknesses a troll does) I had to add the clause about wish and miracle.

    Remember, what's scary for a monster isn't great for a player. If a character (with already insanely high saves, and probably AC and DR) needs ridiculously massive damage AND one of the two most powerful spells in the game to keep him dead, that character isn't going to be challenged.


    That all being said, I don't think it's too bad, apart from the aforementioned points. It's probably OK if the character is hard to kill, since he's not going to be doing a huge amount of damage. But... it shouldn't be tarrasque-hard to kill him.

    EDIT: Wow, did I get swordsage'd in the time it took to write this.
    I'll consider what you've said about the capstone, but you didn't really offer me any alternatives (you can't die from nonlethal damage) other than the limit to Constitution modifier hit points per round, which I will be implementing.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-30 at 12:37 AM.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Alright, I added the part about a Constitution score of 16. Now any DM can simply deal Constitution damage to a vitalist and he will immediately lose all class features if his Con score drops to 15 or below (which is why I didn't want to use that prereq in the first place)

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Alright, I added the part about a Constitution score of 16. Now any DM can simply deal Constitution damage to a vitalist and he will immediately lose all class features if his Con score drops to 15 or below (which is why I didn't want to use that prereq in the first place)
    Er, I don't know what guide to PrCs you're using, but dropping the stat after taking the class doesn't lose you class abilities. You can't take new levels in it till the stat goes back up, but you don't lose anything unless the class description expressly states you lose the abilities under those conditions.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Er, I don't know what guide to PrCs you're using, but dropping the stat after taking the class doesn't lose you class abilities. You can't take new levels in it till the stat goes back up, but you don't lose anything unless the class description expressly states you lose the abilities under those conditions.
    Er. Yes. It does. In both Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, there is a clause that states "At any point, if a character no longer meets any of the prerequisites for his prestige class, he loses all class features of that prestige class until he meets them again".

    For example, if a Reaping Mauler (grappler focused prestige class) grew to Large size (which means he no longer meets the prereqs for the prereq feat Clever Wrestling) he loses all class features until he returns to Medium size.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Huh. Well I'll be damned, so they do. Yet another rule that's good to know but will be forever ignored (like the EXP penalty for multiclassing).

    Just out of curiosity, is there a class anywhere that gets both Mettle and Evasion?

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Huh. Well I'll be damned, so they do. Yet another rule that's good to know but will be forever ignored (like the EXP penalty for multiclassing).

    Just out of curiosity, is there a class anywhere that gets both Mettle and Evasion?
    I don't believe so, no.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Well, hot damn, this one's a doozy. Quite a fun, flavorful class, to say the least. I would play one.

    Now, honestly, I think the class is pretty much great as is. The Shadow of the Tarrasque is pretty freaking powerful, but considering this class is entirely based around the idea of taking a beating, I like it. You can still incapacitate the character, but you won't be killing him easily. As with so many classes of yours, I don't really feel like that ability is so obscene, since it takes 10 class levels to gain the ability with almost no other benefits other than extreme damage-taking abilities.
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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Domriso View Post
    Well, hot damn, this one's a doozy. Quite a fun, flavorful class, to say the least. I would play one.

    Now, honestly, I think the class is pretty much great as is. The Shadow of the Tarrasque is pretty freaking powerful, but considering this class is entirely based around the idea of taking a beating, I like it. You can still incapacitate the character, but you won't be killing him easily. As with so many classes of yours, I don't really feel like that ability is so obscene, since it takes 10 class levels to gain the ability with almost no other benefits other than extreme damage-taking abilities.
    Why thank you Domriso!

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    A question upon rereading: why is he not immune to instant death effects? It seems a good fluff ability to add; would fit well into the Vital Spirit ability, too.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    A question upon rereading: why is he not immune to instant death effects? It seems a good fluff ability to add; would fit well into the Vital Spirit ability, too.
    Because instant death effects are a powerful nerf to his regeneration ability (if he fails a save against an instant death effect, his hit points drop to the point where he can be wished dead)

    If I made him immune to instant death effects, the only way to kill him would be to melee him down to his hit points +10 subdual damage, while he's regaining Con mod points every turn, has DR, is immune to critical hits and precision damage, can save against anything, and can't be stunned. (And he has maximum hit points, which includes 120 hit points from this class alone)

    So yeah, the instant death is there to give a glimmer of hope. Note that the tarrasque is not immune to instant death effects either (they also drop him down to -10 so he can be wished dead). If I gave him immunity to death effects, he would be harder to kill than the tarrasque. That's too powerful.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-30 at 11:48 AM.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    wow, very awesome class
    i agree that its pretty much set as it is.
    i dont know how common instant death effects are, but if they're this guys "weakness" (as much as he HAS a weakness) then what about having an earlier level so they always/more likely to succeed, but instant death effects always do nonlethal damage.
    because otherwise it would seem that that could bypass the entire point of the class, and i dont know what would happen if an ally was targeted by a dath attack and your aura redirected it?
    whether you'd both die, or each take 50% damage or what?
    i only say because the literal minimum level to gain the capstone is level 15, and it would kinda suck if you find your nigh unkillable badass getting one shotted repeatedly
    also would add fluff-ness, in that he's just to macho to listen to any of this "instant death" rubbish

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Huh. Well I'll be damned, so they do. Yet another rule that's good to know but will be forever ignored (like the EXP penalty for multiclassing).
    It's argued though that the ruling in question only applies to Prestige Classes from those two specific books since it's not mentioned in any other splat with PrCs or in the DMG proper. But that's really something entire threads end up being devoted to.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    I'll consider what you've said about the capstone, but you didn't really offer me any alternatives (you can't die from nonlethal damage) other than the limit to Constitution modifier hit points per round, which I will be implementing.
    Sorry. I guess my big point was that the ability makes him too hard to kill, to the point where there's no real threat anymore. My suggestion is to allow decapitation (DM fiat, since it's not really in the rules) or coup de grace to kill him, as per normal regeneration rules. The latter should still be tricky- an enemy needs to be in a position where he can take a full-round action to curbstomp the guy, and his fortitude save should be massive- but it's possible. Another suggestion is to heal very slowly below -10 HP, so that if he does get knocked out he won't be coming up until the fight is over.

    I do like the class, but, as I've said before, Shadow of the Tarrasque takes him from "super-tough bad***" to "yawn, nothing can threaten me again."
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-10-30 at 10:27 AM.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    There's still ability damage, ability drain, negative levels, infinite damage loops, suffocation, the negative and positive energy planes, entombing him in the Earth, shooting him into space, etc.

    Edit: Heck, Forcecage him, open a Portal to the plane of element of your choice (or to the Sun), damage him to unconsciousness. Then bind a Pit Fiend or cut a deal with one and have it use its Wish sla to kill him for good.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2011-10-30 at 11:02 AM.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Sorry. I guess my big point was that the ability makes him too hard to kill, to the point where there's no real threat anymore. My suggestion is to allow decapitation (DM fiat, since it's not really in the rules) or coup de grace to kill him, as per normal regeneration rules. The latter should still be tricky- an enemy needs to be in a position where he can take a full-round action to curbstomp the guy, and his fortitude save should be massive- but it's possible. Another suggestion is to heal very slowly below -10 HP, so that if he does get knocked out he won't be coming up until the fight is over.

    I do like the class, but, as I've said before, Shadow of the Tarrasque takes him from "super-tough bad***" to "yawn, nothing can threaten me again."
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    A creature that is brought to unconsciousness may be killed with a coupe de grace. The damage may not be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal
    Emphasis mine. No form of damage harms this guy. So no form of damage can kill him. Plus, I don't think you can coupe de grace a creature who is immune to critical hits.

    i dont know how common instant death effects are, but if they're this guys "weakness" (as much as he HAS a weakness) then what about having an earlier level so they always/more likely to succeed, but instant death effects always do nonlethal damage.
    I don't think that works. It's a very powerful ability as-is, forcing the character to take all 10 levels of the class to unlock it is what keeps it balanced.

    because otherwise it would seem that that could bypass the entire point of the class, and i dont know what would happen if an ally was targeted by a dath attack and your aura redirected it?
    whether you'd both die, or each take 50% damage or what?
    i only say because the literal minimum level to gain the capstone is level 15, and it would kinda suck if you find your nigh unkillable badass getting one shotted repeatedly
    also would add fluff-ness, in that he's just to macho to listen to any of this "instant death" rubbish
    Unless the instant death ability dealt damage (as disintegrate, but not destruction, etc) you would not die, and your ally would (The text of shield other specifically states it does not share death effects) If it was an ability that dealt damage as disintegrate, you would both take half damage and both of you would die if your hit points dropped to 0. (Unlikely for the vitalist, but possible for the ally)

    And the only way your nigh unkillable badass is getting one shotted "repeatedly" is if your DM is a jackass enough to not only target you with instant death effects, but to do it more than once. I've not met a single DM who was willing to do that. (Especially not to the party meatshield. Now to the cleric/wizard...)

    Edit: Removed the clause saying that miracle only has a 50% chance of killing him. Thought I did it last night when Grod pointed it out, but oh well.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-10-30 at 11:38 AM.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    A full-round action that allows an attacker to attempt a killing blow against a helpless opponent. A coup de grace can be administered with a melee weapon, or with a bow or crossbow if the attacker is adjacent to the opponent. An attacker delivering a coup de grace automatically scores a critical hit, after which the defender must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Rogues also gain their extra sneak attack damage for this attack. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening foes. A coup de grace is not possible against a creature immune to critical hits.
    From the D&D Glossary from WoTC's official site.

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    Default Re: You Won't Keep Me Down! (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    fair enough, as i said, i have no ide ahow common instant death effects are at higher levels so dont know if its likely to happen or not
    as for the people worried about the capstone being too strong, (this might be too far the other way) if you felt that way, could you not modify it as like an ACF that, oh, i dont know, his health doesnt regenerate any fatser than a normal char would once he's unconscious, so he's still immortal, but requires a party member to heal or somehow revive him?
    that way the clas stays the same, but for those concerned the acf is there?
    as always for me, im pretty much just throwing ideas around seeing which ones stick, haha

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