Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground XXVI

[Urpriest]

I'm aware of a couple of ways that "effective" Shadowdancer level may be different than actual levels in Shadowdancer. Some of them are even from outside Unearthed Arcana. I'll bet you are too, OMG.

It could also be that most levels of Shadowdancer are not actually effective levels of Shadowdancer, being rather ineffective levels. Badumdum.

[Zipding]

I should be able to get my build up sometime tomorrow. I couldn't really work on it until now, Physics Lab due tomorrow and I had to finish it up.

[flabort]

yeah, actually, this is going pretty fast. Tomorrow for me, too.

Just need one more feat, fill out some skill points + finish the table, and more description of how the build works/adaptation section.

I just know I'm going to be hit with a huge elegance penalty, even if what I used gains me power or originality. And I have no idea whether it will really gain power, or lose it.
And I'm DEFINITELY taking a hit to UoSI. Nothing I can do to help that.

[Zipding]

yeah, actually, this is going pretty fast. Tomorrow for me, too.

Just need one more feat, fill out some skill points + finish the table, and more description of how the build works/adaptation section.

I just know I'm going to be hit with a huge elegance penalty, even if what I used gains me power or originality. And I have no idea whether it will really gain power, or lose it.
And I'm DEFINITELY taking a hit to UoSI. Nothing I can do to help that.

I just need to get all the fluff and how to use the build done, then I can send it to Amphetryon.

[DeAnno]

Is there any consensus to how many HD the Shadow has at level 9? The DMG claims 6 HD, but that would imply a Shadow with less HD than a normal Shadow is supposed to have at level 3 (2 HD instead of the minimum, 3 HD). Various other interpretations might guess the Shadow would have 7 HD (base plus 4 additional) or 9 HD (perhaps the DMG meant to say 6 HD more?). Since the SRD and not the DMG is the explicit source for the competition, it's sort of cloudy.

Aside from that potential tangle, this is a pretty hard PRC to work with. The problem with some of the abilities in the past few months isn't really that they're bad, it's that many of them are X/day and could probably be gotten elsewhere pretty much at will (Shadow Jump, I'm looking at you).

[Venger]

Is there any consensus to how many HD the Shadow has at level 9? The DMG claims 6 HD, but that would imply a Shadow with less HD than a normal Shadow is supposed to have at level 3 (2 HD instead of the minimum, 3 HD). Various other interpretations might guess the Shadow would have 7 HD (base plus 4 additional) or 9 HD (perhaps the DMG meant to say 6 HD more?). Since the SRD and not the DMG is the explicit source for the competition, it's sort of cloudy.

Aside from that potential tangle, this is a pretty hard PRC to work with. The problem with some of the abilities in the past few months isn't really that they're bad, it's that many of them are X/day and could probably be gotten elsewhere pretty much at will (Shadow Jump, I'm looking at you).

well, you can interpret the "2HD per 3 levels" to include 3rd level, giving you a 2HD shadow at lvl 3, 4 at 6 and then 6 at 9. you could also use an out of the box shadow which'd give you 1 more HD at each of those levels. it's unlikely to matter much since your shadow can't really do anything.

I think this is another one for you, Amphetryon. the RAW has failed us. your verdict?

[Zipding]

How many builds do we have submitted so far? I count 2 including myself and we have a bunch of other builds being worked on right now.

[The Gilded Duke]

Could we get a ruling on how many HD the shadow has? It may actually effect some builds.

[Darthteej]

My gauntlet's thrown down, my hat's in the ring, I'm going all out, take no prisoners, got the Eye of the Tiger, etc. etc. First IC entry, and Savage Species looks mighty attractive from where I'm standing. Another vote for shadow HD ruling, because it matters to my build. The chairman is dead, all hail the chairman.

[Venger]

How many builds do we have submitted so far? I count 2 including myself and we have a bunch of other builds being worked on right now.

I submitted mine yesterday, so you can add me to your tally

[Zipding]

I submitted mine yesterday, so you can add me to your tally

From what I've seen so far, we are the only ones who have submitted builds, and I'm almost done my second already
The only thing left now is a backstory, hopefully I can come up with a good backstory like my other one. The build should be submitted tomorrow.

[Diefje]

You'd think there's a Speed category.

I'm getting there. My idea is working out so far, so I will be sending in something. Barring real life or (*GASP*) complications with the build of course. So far I'm pretty excited...

... Under the circumstances... Stupid Shadowdancer... Levels 2-10...grumble grumble...

[Venger]

From what I've seen so far, we are the only ones who have submitted builds, and I'm almost done my second already
The only thing left now is a backstory, hopefully I can come up with a good backstory like my other one. The build should be submitted tomorrow.

wat. we are allowed to submit multiple builds?

You'd think there's a Speed category.

I'm getting there. My idea is working out so far, so I will be sending in something. Barring real life or (*GASP*) complications with the build of course. So far I'm pretty excited...

... Under the circumstances... Stupid Shadowdancer... Levels 2-10...grumble grumble...

well, since all the builds are submitted anonymously and posted simultaneously, that would be largely moot

yeah, it's a shame that shadowdancer was before the day of 3 and 5 level PrCs. HiPS is all that one would want from it in a non-shadowdancer-centric build, and there's little incentive to stay in for longer than 2 levels (or 3 if you really want that shadow) it would've been on all stealthy guys' lists if it were just the first 3 levels (and of course didn't require 3 feats and so many skills) but 10 levels of what we have is... yeah.

while I know you can't mean what I think you mean, I would be kind of curious to see how the judges reacted in the UoTSI category to a build with only 1 level of shadowdancer in it

[Diefje]

wat. we are allowed to submit multiple builds?

Yes. It's just generally better to submit 1 awesome build, than a few good ones, or even many crappy ones. If you want to, you can split your focus on multiple builds.

[gbprime]

while I know you can't mean what I think you mean, I would be kind of curious to see how the judges reacted in the UoTSI category to a build with only 1 level of shadowdancer in it

In a word... poorly. Not completing all 10 levels is always a hit. Even just 9/10 is a quarter or half point off. And if you just "dip" the special ingredient, I can see getting a flat 1 for UoSI score. So you'd better pull off all 5's in the power and originality categories if you hope to win, and good luck with that!


"dip" = one or two levels in a class. Like taking Rogue 2 just for evasion, or Fighter 2 just for the bonus feats.

[Venger]

In a word... poorly. Not completing all 10 levels is always a hit. Even just 9/10 is a quarter or half point off. And if you just "dip" the special ingredient, I can see getting a flat 1 for UoSI score. So you'd better pull off all 5's in the power and originality categories if you hope to win, and good luck with that!


"dip" = one or two levels in a class. Like taking Rogue 2 just for evasion, or Fighter 2 just for the bonus feats.

oh, I'm sure it would. I was more just reacting to him joking about only being able to "justify" 1 level of shadowdancer on his guy/gal. I'm pretty sure his doesn't just have 1 lvl of shadowdancer in there

Yes. It's just generally better to submit 1 awesome build, than a few good ones, or even many crappy ones. If you want to, you can split your focus on multiple builds.

I agree. I had one fun if somewhat silly idea for a second build, but don't have enough time/energy to do it. I'll say what it is when the builds are unveiled so I don't spoil anyone's plans if anybody else had the same idea. fairly certain it would've scored high points for power and originality even if it would've gotten slammed pretty hard for elegance and UoTSI.

[Akal Saris]

Holy cow, I just had a burst of inspiration! I think I might have a fun build idea if I can find the time to build the character

[Amphetryon]

Holy cow, I just had a burst of inspiration! I think I might have a fun build idea if I can find the time to build the character

And all who gazed upon it, trembled. . . .

[flabort]

So, I think we still need that ruling on Shadow HD, plus I ran into another (small) speed bumb. Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Now, can someone with 8 levels of X (that Doesn't grant UD or IUD) and 6 levels of Shadowdancer, be flanked by a level 10 rogue, or does the rogue have to be level 18?
Since there's the line about Stacking levels, I assume it's the lower level rogue, but still.

[gbprime]

Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Now, can someone with 8 levels of X (that Doesn't grant UD or IUD) and 6 levels of Shadowdancer, be flanked by a level 10 rogue, or does the rogue have to be level 18?
Since there's the line about Stacking levels, I assume it's the lower level rogue, but still.

Looks pretty clear to me...

If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

If that other class doesn't grant uncanny dodge, then there's nothing to stack, and the rogue level required in the case of your example would be 10.

[gbprime]

And all who gazed upon it, trembled. . . .

No, all who gazed upon it RAN AND HID THEMSELVES. Remember the PrC in question.

[dextercorvia]

So, I think we still need that ruling on Shadow HD, plus I ran into another (small) speed bumb. Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Now, can someone with 8 levels of X (that Doesn't grant UD or IUD) and 6 levels of Shadowdancer, be flanked by a level 10 rogue, or does the rogue have to be level 18?
Since there's the line about Stacking levels, I assume it's the lower level rogue, but still.

No ruling is necessary in either case. Incorrect examples never trump text, and the text says to add +2 HD per 3 levels. For the other, IUD is always based on class levels.

[Amphetryon]

No ruling is necessary in either case. Incorrect examples never trump text, and the text says to add +2 HD per 3 levels. For the other, IUD is always based on class levels.

Sounds right from here.

[Cieyrin]

Interesting. I have other things that need working on currently but maybe I can swing out a build further than last round went for me. Though the ideas I want to pursue have already been heavily speculated on in-thread, which is highly annoying for my Originality...

[Venger]

No ruling is necessary in either case. Incorrect examples never trump text, and the text says to add +2 HD per 3 levels. For the other, IUD is always based on class levels.

oh, the only question we had was whether your shadow starts out with 2HD or 3HD at 3rd level since shadows normally have 3, but the example in the text seems to imply that it'd have 2. so you're saying that it'd have 2 and thus 7 at 9th level?

[dextercorvia]

oh, the only question we had was whether your shadow starts out with 2HD or 3HD at 3rd level since shadows normally have 3, but the example in the text seems to imply that it'd have 2. so you're saying that it'd have 2 and thus 7 at 9th level?

At Shadowdancer3, the Shadow should have 5HD. 3 normal, plus you add 2HD for being a 3rd level Shadowdancer. By 9th level, it would have 9HD. It doesn't say for every 3rd level gained from this point. To say that it would need to use wording like in Scorching Ray.

[Venger]

At Shadowdancer3, the Shadow should have 5HD. 3 normal, plus you add 2HD for being a 3rd level Shadowdancer. By 9th level, it would have 9HD. It doesn't say for every 3rd level gained from this point. To say that it would need to use wording like in Scorching Ray.

oh cool! dunno what was up with the example in the DMG then. does your shadow turn into a greater shadow when it gets 9HD?

[dextercorvia]

oh cool! dunno what was up with the example in the DMG then. does your shadow turn into a greater shadow when it gets 9HD?

A Greater Shadow is just an advanced Shadow with crappy feat selection. I hope you can do better than that.

[flabort]

Build submitted, although I think I MAY have forgotten to spell check
And am questioning whether to resubmit because of that.

[Venger]

A Greater Shadow is just an advanced Shadow with crappy feat selection. I hope you can do better than that.

oh, I was more interested in its 1d8 str damage instead of 1d6, although racial feats are nice and I think you're entitled to pick your shadow's feats as it gets more HD. an incorporeal monster dealing that much str damage will render certain foes helpless awfully fast, which a shadowdancer with SA will appreciate