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    Default Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    I, ever since I started playing d&d, have wanted to play an optimized Mind Flayer. Now, I opened my copy of Lords of Madness (just for fun) and opened right to the ulitharid entry. I asked my DM, and he said I could, but I'd have 19 monster levels...

    I have been under the impression that monster classes are a gimp more than a buff to play in a semi-optimized party. Unless your party is a group of Samurai, Truenamers, and Monks, you will be overshadowed by the party. So here was my thought: Let Monster Classes Gestalt.

    So here's my conundrum: Would it actually be Overpowered, and what evidence could I show him to prove that a Gestalt Ulitarid/Psionic Build wouldn't overshadow a normal party?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    I, ever since I started playing d&d, have wanted to play an optimized Mind Flayer. Now, I opened my copy of Lords of Madness (just for fun) and opened right to the ulitharid entry. I asked my DM, and he said I could, but I'd have 19 monster levels...

    I have been under the impression that monster classes are a gimp more than a buff to play in a semi-optimized party. Unless your party is a group of Samurai, Truenamers, and Monks, you will be overshadowed by the party. So here was my thought: Let Monster Classes Gestalt.

    So here's my conundrum: Would it actually be Overpowered, and what evidence could I show him to prove that a Gestalt Ulitarid/Psionic Build wouldn't overshadow a normal party?
    As far as I can tell, any gestalt is going to have more power than their equivalent single-classed builds. So an Ulitharid 19//Wiz 19 is still a wiz 19. Unless the racial class actually hampers your performance, it'll be more powerful than the class alone.

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    I, ever since I started playing d&d, have wanted to play an optimized Mind Flayer. Now, I opened my copy of Lords of Madness (just for fun) and opened right to the ulitharid entry. I asked my DM, and he said I could, but I'd have 19 monster levels...

    I have been under the impression that monster classes are a gimp more than a buff to play in a semi-optimized party. Unless your party is a group of Samurai, Truenamers, and Monks, you will be overshadowed by the party. So here was my thought: Let Monster Classes Gestalt.

    So here's my conundrum: Would it actually be Overpowered, and what evidence could I show him to prove that a Gestalt Ulitarid/Psionic Build wouldn't overshadow a normal party?
    ...What you're saying is that you should be allowed to gestalt a cool race with a normal class, in an otherwise ungestalted party?
    Short answer: you shouldn't.
    Long answer: What this will end up doing is you'll be just like the normal class you have on the other side of the gestalt, but flat out more powerful because you also have all the nifty perks of an ulitharid. On top of that, you could get your psion level to exceed your HD.
    Self-plug answer: might I suggest improved monster classes?
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreaz View Post
    As far as I can tell, any gestalt is going to have more power than their equivalent single-classed builds. So an Ulitharid 19//Wiz 19 is still a wiz 19. Unless the racial class actually hampers your performance, it'll be more powerful than the class alone.
    I have fewer HD, 7 HD-less levels, and am a "14th level psion", with normal illithid lovelies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    ...What you're saying is that you should be allowed to gestalt a cool race with a normal class, in an otherwise ungestalted party?
    Short answer: you shouldn't.
    Long answer: What this will end up doing is you'll be just like the normal class you have on the other side of the gestalt, but flat out more powerful because you also have all the nifty perks of an ulitharid. On top of that, you could get your psion level to exceed your HD.
    Self-plug answer: might I suggest improved monster classes?
    That's how he said 19 levels. He has done it so I level up faster than the party, so my HD/CR match the Party's
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    So, you're basically asking for the equivalent of free gestalting with monk.

    It'll be wayyy overpowered.
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Just looking at raw stats, the Ulitharid gets Str +6, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +10, Wis +6, Cha +10, with Psion (Telepath) 13 manifesting, SR 27, Telepathy 200 ft. which may as well include Mindsight, and Mind Blast at will.

    Let's say you get 19 monster levels for that; let's say you take something like Psion 5/ Metamind 10/ Psion Uncarnate 4 with that. Now you've got Psion 25 manifesting at level 19, with Metamind 10 for a 1/day unlimited powerpoint pool to go with the standard unlimited standard actions combo. Is that fair at all to the rest of the party?

    Do you realize what you propose? What if someone else in the group wanted to play a Barbarian, but decided that instead of a Human Barbarian, he'd make a Sand Giant character and just take Barbarian levels along side its racial hit dice and level adjustment. He'd get Str +16, Dex +10, Con +10, Wis +6, Cha +2, +11 natural armor, large size with natural reach, a burrow speed.... for absolutely no drawback. Why wouldn't every character just use the biggest, baddest monster race that's available at the current level, if they can get just as many class levels as gestalt levels with it? You're trying to remove all the cost of playing monstrous races.

    No, unless the rest of your party is also gestalt, then no, you should not be able to gestalt a monster race just because you want to play a character of that race in a standard party. I'd say your DM is nice reducing the Ulitharid to level 19, since its 12 HD and +9 LA would normally make it only playable at ECL 21.

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Just looking at raw stats, the Ulitharid gets Str +6, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +10, Wis +6, Cha +10, with Psion (Telepath) 13 manifesting, SR 27, Telepathy 200 ft. which may as well include Mindsight, and Mind Blast at will.

    Let's say you get 19 monster levels for that; let's say you take something like Psion 5/ Metamind 10/ Psion Uncarnate 4 with that. Now you've got Psion 25 manifesting at level 19, with Metamind 10 for a 1/day unlimited powerpoint pool to go with the standard unlimited standard actions combo. Is that fair at all to the rest of the party?

    Do you realize what you propose? What if someone else in the group wanted to play a Barbarian, but decided that instead of a Human Barbarian, he'd make a Sand Giant character and just take Barbarian levels along side its racial hit dice and level adjustment. He'd get Str +16, Dex +10, Con +10, Wis +6, Cha +2, +11 natural armor, large size with natural reach, a burrow speed.... for absolutely no drawback. Why wouldn't every character just use the biggest, baddest monster race that's available at the current level, if they can get just as many class levels as gestalt levels with it? You're trying to remove all the cost of playing monstrous races.

    No, unless the rest of your party is also gestalt, then no, you should not be able to gestalt a monster race just because you want to play a character of that race in a standard party. I'd say your DM is nice reducing the Ulitharid to level 19, since its 12 HD and +9 LA would normally make it only playable at ECL 21.
    I'd be an Ulitharid 5. The rest of the party is 5th level
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    If one character is gestalting and the rest of the party isn't, then that character will be significantly more powerful than them unless the gestalt classes are so bad that gestalt doesn't make it good.

    Psions are already good. Ulitharid seems to also be very strong. Combining the two would be a better Psion. This is unfair to anyone else in the party.

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Again, in a gestalt the individual classes will always be "better" than the same classes not in a gestalt. So no. Whatever it is you gestalt in your class side will end up having more than that class alone.

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by skycycle blues View Post
    If one character is gestalting and the rest of the party isn't, then that character will be significantly more powerful than them unless the gestalt classes are so bad that gestalt doesn't make it good.

    Psions are already good. Ulitharid seems to also be very strong. Combining the two would be a better Psion. This is unfair to anyone else in the party.
    I play in a group that is generally VERY optimized (generally at least 1 Ubercharger, a Diplomancer, a God Wizard, and a Clericzilla) being 7 levels behind and lacking upper-tier Psionics seems to be a very large hinderince.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    I play in a group that is generally VERY optimized (generally at least 1 Ubercharger, a Diplomancer, a God Wizard, and a Clericzilla) being 7 levels behind and lacking upper-tier Psionics seems to be a very large hinderince.
    So, you'd be starting at Ulitharid 5 in a 5th level party. A Psion 5 is already a Tier 2 class, so your character would still have all the optimization tricks available to a Psion, but he would be better than just a typical Psion because he would get the Ulitharid benefits (ability score bonuses, d8 HP for those Aberration HD) at absolutely no drawback.

    Why would anyone play a [PHB race] Psion if they could play a Gestalt Ulitharid Psion instead?! What you propose is not balanced, it is not fair to anyone else playing, and it should not be allowed. If you want to play a Mind Flayer character so bad, go Psion into Flayerspawn Psychic from Complete Psionic. You told your DM that you wanted to play an Ulitharid, he gave you some extremely gracious options, but you want more. Hopefully nothing is going to be able to convince him to let you gestalt this character in a non-gestalt game, and nobody with any concept of game balance is going to help you do it. If you don't think this character will be able to measure up in this game, then just save it for another time.

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    So, you'd be starting at Ulitharid 5 in a 5th level party. A Psion 5 is already a Tier 2 class, so your character would still have all the optimization tricks available to a Psion, but he would be better than just a typical Psion because he would get the Ulitharid benefits (ability score bonuses, d8 HP for those Aberration HD) at absolutely no drawback.

    Why would anyone play a [PHB race] Psion if they could play a Gestalt Ulitharid Psion instead?! What you propose is not balanced, it is not fair to anyone else playing, and it should not be allowed. If you want to play a Mind Flayer character so bad, go Psion into Flayerspawn Psychic from Complete Psionic. You told your DM that you wanted to play an Ulitharid, he gave you some extremely gracious options, but you want more. Hopefully nothing is going to be able to convince him to let you gestalt this character in a non-gestalt game, and nobody with any concept of game balance is going to help you do it. If you don't think this character will be able to measure up in this game, then just save it for another time.
    I have postponed my lust for playing a Mind Flayer for over 6 years
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    I have postponed my lust for playing a Mind Flayer for over 6 years
    Mind Flayers are powerful monsters, but they do not make powerful PCs. It looks to me like your lust for playing a Mind Flayer includes a lust for making that character overwhelmingly powerful as well, which is not fair to the rest of your gaming group.

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Mind Flayers are powerful monsters, but they do not make powerful PCs. It looks to me like your lust for playing a Mind Flayer includes a lust for making that character overwhelmingly powerful as well, which is not fair to the rest of your gaming group.
    Oh... I have what I think a Mind Flayer is (a brain-sucking spawn of Cthulu who can warp your mind into thinking you are a pretty balerina), and what they are...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Or, better yet, create a Savage Species progression for it and run that. Or use Savage Species RHD/LA 0 for stock Mind Flayer and progress as a regular old Psion from there. Much, much, much, much more balanced than gestalting monster class with regular class in a non-gestalt class.
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    Or, better yet, create a Savage Species progression for it and run that. Or use Savage Species RHD/LA 0 for stock Mind Flayer and progress as a regular old Psion from there. Much, much, much, much more balanced than gestalting monster class with regular class in a non-gestalt class.
    So being a Mind Flayer isn't awesome?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    My suggestions are to either wait till your group plays a Regular Gestalt game and then use the monster progression on one side, or Gestalt it with a Teir five or lower class. Truenamer, Warrior, Expert, Monk, Fighter, Samurai, Adept, SoulKnife, Lurk, pick a weak class. You've got Manifester ability's, those are as good as caster levels. Trust me, long as you've got that, your gonna be able to keep pace.
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    So being a Mind Flayer isn't awesome?
    No more awesome than human. Which is what your asking. To be a Mind Flayer in full awesomeness for the cost of being human.
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    My suggestions are to either wait till your group plays a Regular Gestalt game and then use the monster progression on one side, or Gestalt it with a Teir five or lower class. Truenamer, Warrior, Expert, Monk, Fighter, Samurai, Adept, SoulKnife, Lurk, pick a weak class. You've got Manifester ability's, those are as good as caster levels. Trust me, long as you've got that, your gonna be able to keep pace.
    HMMM.... Ulitharid//Soulknife??? Scary, Minus my group plays with a Full BAB Heavy-Armor Soulknife (essentially, fighter with a mind blade)

    Edit: And Mesi, I eat human brains.

    Update: DM is saying that I may be advancing by my CR instead of class levels. So when the Party is 12th level, I'll be 19th.
    Last edited by Tokuhara; 2011-10-31 at 09:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    no offence, but judging from your post, you dont want to hear the opinion of the other forumgoers, you just want to hear a excuse to play your gestalt.

    people here are all ( as far as i can see ) agreeing it would be terribly unfair and way overpowered compared to the rest of your party, yet you seem to be trying to convince them that its not. your basic question was "would this be fair?" and it seems that people are agreeing with your DM

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by TriForce View Post
    no offence, but judging from your post, you dont want to hear the opinion of the other forumgoers, you just want to hear a excuse to play your gestalt.

    people here are all ( as far as i can see ) agreeing it would be terribly unfair and way overpowered compared to the rest of your party, yet you seem to be trying to convince them that its not. your basic question was "would this be fair?" and it seems that people are agreeing with your DM
    Oh... So what are the alternatives, because I adore Mind Flayers (especially the noble ones)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    Update: DM is saying that I may be advancing by my CR instead of class levels. So when the Party is 12th level, I'll be 19th.
    This is unfair to the rest of the party, as monsters usually have abilities making them stronger than PCs of their CR. In general, however, the listed level adjustment is a bit to much.

    If I recall my mind flayer correctly, it's CR 7 with a +7LA and 7 HD, making it effectively a level 14 character. That's a bit high, but I'd probably allow a Mind Flayer in a level 10 or 11 game, giving it an effective LA of +3 or +4 instead of +7. You'd probably end up about in line with the other PCs.

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    ~Want to have this thread closed~

    I guess I can never obtain my dream of epic mind flayer-dom

    I'm on plan Alpha (gone through the entire alphabet of Concepts on my own)
    Last edited by Tokuhara; 2011-10-31 at 09:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Again, Just play it in a regular Gestalt game and put Druid, Cleric, Or Wizard on the other side, you'll be fine.
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Ask the DM to reduce the LA to match the party's optimization level. Done.

    I did a few tests and monster races also hold up to fighter/barbarian/paladins that only have access to core feats and items too, btw. But any form of power creep - better feats, etc. - ruins that and you need to lower the LA. Figure reasonably how much an optimized level is worth compared to an unoptimized one when you ask for the LA reduction. If you say "Gimme a gestalt so I can have all the LA & HD for free, kk thx" your DM will probably just ignore you and tell you to play something else.

    If you want to play a caster or psion with LA that gets more complicated and requires homebrew. Assuming nothing on the Ulitarid helps psionic powers at all, I might put you 2 levels behind on both psion and Ulitarid. The more they help each other the more I'd increase that to something higher than 2.
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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    ~Want to have this thread closed~

    I guess I can never obtain my dream of epic mind flayer-dom

    I'm on plan Alpha (gone through the entire alphabet of Concepts on my own)
    ...you are aware that other posters here have proposed a number of possible ways that you CAN play a mind-flayer, correct?

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    A couple reasonable suggestions have already been advanced (including simply actually playing gestalt)

    1) Is LA buyoff even possible for a LA that high?

    2) Aren't there some rules for adding classes unrelated to a monster's strengths, at lower CR bumps? Like making a cloud giant wizard, or a mindflayer monk? See if you can work out something like that.

    3) See if people are up for a monstrous campaign. If everyone's on a chassis like that, it will be (somewhat) balanced, and could be a fun, shorter campaign. Maybe something starting from Sigil?

    4) Try a more complicated XP setup, something like what I remember 2nd Ed. multiclassing to be like (it's been awhile, so this is purely how I remember it, and likely not entirely accurate). Gestalt, but require the experience to level up both sides. That is, start out with a progression for, say, ulitharid1//psion1. Divide your experience evenly across both sides. So, if it takes 1k xp to get to level two... when the party hits 1k, everyone but you will be level two, while you'll be halfway to level two on both sides. You'll then hit ulitharid2//psion2 when the rest of the party is at 2k xp, nearly level three. Because of the way the xp curve works, you'll be behind, but not THAT far behind. On PF's advancement (the only XP chart I have handy atm), you'd be two levels back at twentieth... which might not be enough of a penalty, but you're still weaker than a full gestalt. Maybe work in some more penalties, somehow, I don't know. It's the start of an idea, anyway.

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Short answer: it would be unfair and pretty op.

    Long answer:
    If you really feel the urge to play a mindflayer character, look for a gestalt campaing (one that uses that rule from the beginning) that allows a monstuous class on one side of the gestalt. Ask your DM for a savage-species like monster progression and have fun.

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    Default Re: Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

    Monster gestalt is immensely fun, especially when your DM has your Team Evil take on waves of hapless adventurers.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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