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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    I don't know was there a similar discussion but a while ago I found this spell and started wondering what would happened if:

    Lest assume a character get's his hand's on a sack full of wand' of Scholar's Touch and lock's him self in a library and goes on a massive bookorgasm.
    Spell description
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    With this spell you can touch a book or scroll and absorb the knowledge contained within as if you had just read it. This is equivalent to a solid reading but not deep study -- the character does not gain perfect recall of the information, just whatever he would have gotten from reading it completely once. If you can't read the language of the source, the spell has no effect. This spell cannot be used to prepare spells or to cast magical scrolls, nor does it have any effect when reading a magical book (such as a tome of understanding).


    I know using this spell once doesn't give you much but using it 5 or 10 times means you read the book 5 or 10 times, yes?

    So he start's reading book's about medicine, anatomy, herb's etc... and he reads 30-40 book's multiple times (ofc doing that in one day is bad, the brain can handle only so much info and some will save's will be required, so he play's safe and does that in 1-2 week). Clearly the character posses knowledge and has the right to have some bonus to heal checks, but how high the bonus should be and how to measure it is the tricky part? Also he did read about anatomy and plants so some bonus to Knowledge Nature is in place? And this thing can be used on every Int base skill, Arcane, Religion, History...?

    Edit: this is not about getting extra skill's but acquiring circumstantial bonus to skill check's.

    I know Skill Point system represent the accumulation of knowledge, experience and skill over time of a character but I don't know how to approach this issue so opinions people.

    For practical use this will do fine with Knowledge Devotion stuff.
    Last edited by JohnDaBarr; 2011-11-04 at 09:01 AM.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    That just sounds like wasting a spell on intense roleplay to me. It's not like you can just pull skill points out of thin air because you sent your character to the library and he did a lot of reading. That would defeat the purpose of INT modifiers and number of skill points per level depending on the class.

    I can understand having to do this if a PC is taking on a new knowledge skill, but even then, it shouldn't get him any sort of bonus. Just the ability to put ranks in a new skill.
    Last edited by NOhara24; 2011-11-04 at 08:55 AM.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Oh forgot to mention it, this ofc dosen't give you skill points but circumstantial bonus to skill check's
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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    The problem with tricks that depend on the DM... is that they depend on the DM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Well, here's the description of the spell for the first time you use it on a given book:
    This is equivalent to a solid reading but not deep study -- the character does not gain perfect recall of the information, just whatever he would have gotten from reading it completely once.
    And, for comparison, here's the description of the spell for the tenth time you use it on that book:
    This is equivalent to a solid reading but not deep study -- the character does not gain perfect recall of the information, just whatever he would have gotten from reading it completely once.
    ...That is, using the spell additional times grants no new information, because each only gives that first-reading's worth of information. Think of it this way: the spell reads the book, then reports back to the caster. When you cast the spell again, it's a different instance of the spell than the first, and so the fact that another instance of the spell has already read the book does nothing to benefit this instance's research.

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Hey, if you think you can derive an advantage in your gaming group by casting this spell a lot, go for it. The rules don't support that interpretation, though, so anything your DM gives you for it would be plot related or house rules.
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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    If the book is well-written, then it's a masterwork tool for the appropriate knowledge check. So you could probably argue that for each book you use the spell on, you get a you get a +2 circumstance bonus on the appropriate knowledge check... until you forget it because it's been too long (remember, no perfect recall).

    So, congrats! You spent 750gp on +100 divided over however many knowledge skills, for a little while.

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Hmm. I wonder if you could use the "memorize" function of Autohypnosis in conjunction with Scholar's Touch to gain a better recall of the information. Probably not, but it'd be worth checking with your GM.
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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Hmm. I wonder if you could use the "memorize" function of Autohypnosis in conjunction with Scholar's Touch to gain a better recall of the information. Probably not, but it'd be worth checking with your GM.
    I'd say no. The spell is the equivalent of someone reading a book for you and then telling you what it's about. Even if you hypnotize yourself into remembering that retelling perfectly, it's still going to be a retelling rather than reading the work through yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    well then it's a dead end, not cost-efficient and to much holes

    still was just a thought and worth of a try
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Memorize (DC15 autohypnosis check)

    You can attempt to memorize a long string of numbers, a long passage of verse, or some other particularly difficult piece of information (but you canít memorize magical writing or similarly exotic scripts). Each successful check allows you to memorize a single page of text (up to 800 words), numbers, diagrams, or sigils (even if you donít recognize their meaning). If a document is longer than one page, you can make additional checks for each additional page. You always retain this information; however, you can recall it only with another successful Autohypnosis check.

    Action
    None. Making an Autohypnosis check doesnít require an action; it is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or part of another action (when attempted actively).
    RAW you can memorise an entire book that you read automatically if you have a +14 or higher bonus to autohypnosis checks, the rules are a bit more shaky as to whether you can apply this to the scholar's touch spell.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Scholar's touch is basically Cliff's Notes, the Spell. I know I wouldn't trust someone to do surgery on me if the only medical training they'd had was to read the Cliff's Notes.

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Having a masterwork tool provides a +2 circumastance bonus on a skill check
    Personally i'd consider a good book on some topic a masterwork tool for related checks. Using that spells would (imho) confer you +1 on a related ability check performed within a brief (24h max?) lapse of time, or a +2 check if you manage to memorize it.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Also, I believe the correct term is Bookgasm.
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Yes, the right term is bookgasm, I think. Maybe eyegasm? Braingasm?

    Anyway, the library should have a repeating trap of Scholar's touch... I would say that this is the sort of thing that lets you get big competence bonuses to combine existing information to come up with something new, like for some sort of profession check or something...

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    I would say that with the auto hypnosis memorization it would be like carryiing that library with you. You'd still have to sit down and take the research time meditating to recall the information but could do it naked in a cave out in the wilderness. I seem to remember rules in eberron and in expedition to the demon web pits on what access to a library grants you on knowledge checks based on the time spent doing research.

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by cagemarrow View Post
    I would say that with the auto hypnosis memorization it would be like carryiing that library with you. You'd still have to sit down and take the research time meditating to recall the information but could do it naked in a cave out in the wilderness. I seem to remember rules in eberron and in expedition to the demon web pits on what access to a library grants you on knowledge checks based on the time spent doing research.
    And that's fine, provided you've taken the time to read those books beforehand.

    Scholar's Touch however does not give you the book verbatim - it gives you the Cliff Notes, as Fax and others have stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Since merely having access to a library without doing in-depth reading generally gives +2 to related Knowledge checks (Stronghold Builder's Guide, various modules), I would argue that if you have already read (even in Cliff Notes form) every book in the library then you should have that bonus whether or not you already have the library to hand. You shouldn't get a higher bonus though.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    In a game I'm in I used it to reasonable effect. I had my Shadowcraft Mage use it several times at a local library in a country we'd never been to. Learned magic was heavily regulated and we should hide the fact we're magic users to avoid trouble.

    Although due to the setting I found some "old-world" books with my random book touching (I picked a few topics and left the rest of the uses to random DM picks) and now my character thinks The Portrait of Dorian Gray is a historical novel about the first Lich.

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDaBarr View Post
    I don't know was there a similar discussion but a while ago I found this spell and started wondering what would happened if:

    Lest assume a character get's his hand's on a sack full of wand' of Scholar's Touch and lock's him self in a library and goes on a massive bookorgasm.
    Spell description
    Spoiler
    Show
    With this spell you can touch a book or scroll and absorb the knowledge contained within as if you had just read it. This is equivalent to a solid reading but not deep study -- the character does not gain perfect recall of the information, just whatever he would have gotten from reading it completely once. If you can't read the language of the source, the spell has no effect. This spell cannot be used to prepare spells or to cast magical scrolls, nor does it have any effect when reading a magical book (such as a tome of understanding).


    I know using this spell once doesn't give you much but using it 5 or 10 times means you read the book 5 or 10 times, yes?

    So he start's reading book's about medicine, anatomy, herb's etc... and he reads 30-40 book's multiple times (ofc doing that in one day is bad, the brain can handle only so much info and some will save's will be required, so he play's safe and does that in 1-2 week). Clearly the character posses knowledge and has the right to have some bonus to heal checks, but how high the bonus should be and how to measure it is the tricky part? Also he did read about anatomy and plants so some bonus to Knowledge Nature is in place? And this thing can be used on every Int base skill, Arcane, Religion, History...?

    Edit: this is not about getting extra skill's but acquiring circumstantial bonus to skill check's.

    I know Skill Point system represent the accumulation of knowledge, experience and skill over time of a character but I don't know how to approach this issue so opinions people.

    For practical use this will do fine with Knowledge Devotion stuff.
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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And that's fine, provided you've taken the time to read those books beforehand.

    Scholar's Touch however does not give you the book verbatim - it gives you the Cliff Notes, as Fax and others have stated.
    Mmm, if you allow Autohypnosis to work with Scholar's Touch at all, I can see an argument in favor of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scholar's Touch
    The character does not gain perfect recall of the information, just whatever he would have gotten from reading it completely once.
    Since using Autohypnosis to memorize stuff takes no action, a character with a high enough Autohypnosis modifier (+14, or +5 if you allow taking 10 on this sort of thing, which seems reasonable) would in fact gain perfect recall by "reading it completely once."

    Not rock-solid, but not spurious, either. Again, I'd place it firmly in "ask your GM" territory.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Bookorgasm-Using Scholar's Touch for knowledge tripping

    Since using Autohypnosis to memorize stuff takes no action, a character with a high enough Autohypnosis modifier (+14, or +5 if you allow taking 10 on this sort of thing, which seems reasonable) would in fact gain perfect recall by "reading it completely once."
    thx this is worth considering, and yeah clearly in ''ask you DM'' area.
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