League of Legends XXV: Who is your Summoner, and what does he do?

[ex cathedra]

Upon perusing Stonewall, I find that all of my more common jungle picks are considered Tier 3 or worse, with the exceptions being Skarner, Gangplank, and Nunu (who I don't use often, but tend to do well with if I have at least one competent autoattacker on my team).

Udyr, Nocturne, Jarvan, and Shaco are all guys I'd like to learn, but I imagine I should just wait until the remake goes live?

Shaco is a very finnicky champion to play for a great deal of people, and his poor clearing abilities mean that he's likely not going to do well with the next patch.

Udyr and Nocturne are both some of the best junglers in the game and they will both benefit (that is to say, not receive the Trundle/Shaco/Fiddlesticks/Nunu treatment) from the new jungle changes. Udyr is a fantastic farmer and tank, with some of the best survivability, peeling, and ult-independent ganking potential. Nocturne has had his jungling abilities nerfed several times, but this patch will likely revert that while simultaneously making it easier for him to just jungle to 6. He'll also likely be able to start and excel with efficient items like Scepter, Doran's, or Long Sword. He's a powerful tanky DPS with decent initiation abilities and terrifying post-6 ganks.

I think vayne is the only character who can do %health damage that I don't like. I like Kog, I like Wick, I like mundo, I can't stand vayne. I honestly feel like Twitch has more survivability.

Because having a dash, movement speed steroid, and instant-speed stealth is worse than a 1.5 second delay stealth?

League of Legends XXVI: We've officially jumped the shark

Also, this, because I never want to be reminded of the removal of dodge again.

[Mtg_player_zach]

I'm going to start jungling AD carries after the jungle change. And probably play yi a ton. Because YIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.

[toasty]

I'm going to start jungling AD carries after the jungle change. And probably play yi a ton. Because YIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.

Perhap's Dog's desire to jungle Ezreal will finally be realized?

Personally I'd love to see Jungle Vayne, be effin hilarious.

New Meta:
AP Ez Middle
Graves Bruiser Top Solo
Vayne Jungle
Corki+Ashe bottom (Ashe #1 support)

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Wonder if Talon and Gragas will be good junglers after the change.

[ex cathedra]

Wonder if Talon and Gragas will be good junglers after the change.

Gragas: I'm not really seeing it.

Talon: If the jungle is going to be as easy as the changes suggest, and if blue buff isn't getting changed... can anyone else actually see this being surprisingly viable? He has good aoe, great burst, and more-than-zero CC. I'd be interested in trying it.

[Daverin]

Vayne jungle actually sounds scary. Stealth, uber damage, pushback, multidash? I daresay she may be one of the top contenders for ganking as a jungler amongst the carries (of course, give or take changes to ganking as a whole...)

So... I never actually thought of how much of a damage buff Kog's Q, even when the enemy only has 1000 hp, is. Imagine if crits could apply to it, it would be ridiculous!

Also, I just realized that Kog's R can actually be used for scouting near the level of Ashe's E (yeah, aren't I SUCH a good player? ) Granted, it is in a small area, but if you even remotely have reason to suspect enemies are around, it only takes hitting key areas to find them, and then you have their vision! And of course, the range makes it a very safe proposition, and if you wait the 6 seconds, it is a rather painless cost. Between that and his AoE slow, Kog has more utility than I first gave him credit for. No wonder they don't dare give him any real escape plan...

EDIT: Actually, I could see jungle Gragas, at least in so far as the jungle can let just about anyone do it. The big keys are probably having a CC dash and the potential to knock the enemy into yourself or your teammates, although that would need to be used responsibly. He could only have such ganking every so often, though. Oh, and the whole part where Stonewall and Morello are making it sound like its just become another lane at this point.

[Math_Mage]

The below assumes viable paths can be found.
Ezreal and Vayne: Decent ganks, but no farming or control.
Talon: Great ganks, good control, farm is OK with a Wriggle's after giving up blue, but that isn't an item Talon really wants.
Gragas: Was a good jungler long ago, but doesn't get enough farm to be really good at it now. Good ganks/farm and nice counterjungling potential, though.

[tribble]

Because having a dash, movement speed steroid, and instant-speed stealth is worse than a 1.5 second delay stealth?

>Not already stealthed well before picking a fight
>2011
>I seriously hope etc.

In non-mockery, though, you can't initiate on Twitch unless you have oracles and even then, YOU personally need to be in YOUR sight range of him. Not a teammate's, not a minions', YOUR sight range.

Also, if Twitch's initiator done goofs, Twitch has a simple solution: don't break stealth. If Vayne's initiator done goofs, she dies horribly.

[Daverin]

More on the jungle from Guinsoo: http://clgaming.net/redtracker/topic/21726/?p=1

EDIT: Oh, and Statikk on Sivir: http://clgaming.net/redtracker/topic/21730/?p=2

[toasty]

>Not already stealthed well before picking a fight
>2011
>I seriously hope etc.

In non-mockery, though, you can't initiate on Twitch unless you have oracles and even then, YOU personally need to be in YOUR sight range of him. Not a teammate's, not a minions', YOUR sight range.

Also, if Twitch's initiator done goofs, Twitch has a simple solution: don't break stealth. If Vayne's initiator done goofs, she dies horribly.

Twitch has the worst early game in the game of all the Ragned Carries. worse than ashe. ASHE. That's why he's unplayable.

Zach gonna be #1 JUNGLE TWITCH tho. After remake.

[tribble]

Mo
EDIT: Oh, and Statikk on Sivir: http://clgaming.net/redtracker/topic/21730/?p=2

His words say one thing and the actual gameplay I saw in the patch preview say something else.

[dgnslyr]

Twitch has the worst early game in the game of all the Ragned Carries. worse than ashe. ASHE. That's why he's unplayable.

Zach gonna be #1 JUNGLE TWITCH tho. After remake.

Ashe has a bad early game? Hmm, now that you mention it, she's unable to do much besides stay back and last hit. That's why I always max her E first; since I can't do any good harass in the first place, why bother investing at all, when I can have ALL THE MONIES?

[togapika]

I'm just waiting on the new champ... because ARMORED BEAR!!!

[Fredaintdead]

I'm just waiting on the new champ... because ARMORED BEAR!!!

*high fives*
Someone get this man a medal, because he either reads my posts or my mind.
As said, YES, I am excited for the bear. BECAUSE IT'S A BEAR.

[efdf]

Perhap's Dog's desire to jungle Ezreal will finally be realized?

He doesn't even have to wait for the patch, jungle Ezreal is extremely easy already

I'm actually not a fan of the minion changes. IMO they remove gameplay by making minion aggro management less important.

It seems Riot is trying to remove cases where the optimal play is to play passive for both sides of the lane. Large minion wave - pushes enemy to tower, so you can't be aggressive on them unless they're already low meaning jungle ganks would just feed you a double kill. Enemy can't be aggressive on you because of the large minion wave. You might say that the very fact that the enemy is pushed to their tower is aggressive play because it forces them to miss creeps, but nowadays people do this obnoxious minion freezing technique where they duck in and out of bushes to stutter step the minion wave before they hit the tower and wait for their own wave to arrive, thus freezing the wave in front of the tower and not missing any creeps. Also, I doubt Riot considers this aggressive enough unless you use this opportunity to go gank, which top and bot lane pretty much can't do.

Also, minion damage is pretty much why bot lane is so passive.

[9mm]

His words say one thing and the actual gameplay I saw in the patch preview say something else.

funny; I saw the exact same thing.

"we have no idea why people play Sivir, or what her problems are; so lets ignore everything we've been told and destroy her because mashing W every 3 seconds increases interactivity with her kit"

[Darth Mario]

funny; I saw the exact same thing.

"we have no idea why people play Sivir, or what her problems are; so lets ignore everything we've been told and destroy her because mashing W every 3 seconds increases interactivity with her kit"

Does make Triforce viable on her, though.

[Dogmantra]

Gragas: I'm not really seeing it.

Gragas is already a great jungler.

Ashe has a bad early game? Hmm, now that you mention it, she's unable to do much besides stay back and last hit. That's why I always max her E first; since I can't do any good harass in the first place, why bother investing at all, when I can have ALL THE MONIES?

Ehh, Ashe is a better laner than people give her credit for. She's not so suited to duo bot as she is a solo though, where, with some AD runes, she can quite easily force summoners and punish mistakes. Also with the Red Buff nerf, she'll be able to better support ganks.

He doesn't even have to wait for the patch, jungle Ezreal is extremely easy already

Only reason I haven't done it so far is that I'm confident enough to just pick a lot of guys and say well I'm jungling then, but not Ezreal because I feel like there's a really specific route or something. TO CUSTOM GAMES.

[9mm]

Does make Triforce viable on her, though.

Initial thought process makes this a decision based on what is sivir's main source of damage now. If it's the bounce from Richocete then tri-force is a noob trap. If she's now single target with incidental AoE, it is a great item because the ease in procing it. At which point the Metagolem is in fact, her new best build.

Which sums up my doubts of the rework quite nicely; actually. Since they are clearly trying to move Sivir from the AoE carry role to something else; where does that put her? Without the new base stats being insane; a high risk, micro heavy carry, with low, low reward. All the while competing in the same conceptual space as Vayne and Graves.

[TechnOkami]

*high fives*
Someone get this man a medal, because he either reads my posts or my mind.
As said, YES, I am excited for the bear. BECAUSE IT'S A BEAR.

Hurburbudur, play more Udyr.

[Fredaintdead]

Hurburbudur, play more Udyr.

He's only part bear. Besides, he's only bear when he's chasing. And even then he just has a bear-face. Effectively making him a Half-manbear. Not a THUNDABEAR.

[Arcanoi]

He's only part bear. Besides, he's only bear when he's chasing. And even then he just has a bear-face. Effectively making him a Half-manbear. Not a THUNDABEAR.

NOT TRUE. Udyr is 100%, Bear, Turtle, Phoenix, and Tiger, AND ALSO 200% MAN SO I COULD SEE HOW YOU MIGHT MIX UP THAT HE IS ONLY PART BEAR I GUESS BUT YOU'D BE WRONG.

[Silverraptor]

League of Legends XXVI: We've officially jumped the shark

I vote for this.

[Fredaintdead]

NOT TRUE. Udyr is 100%, Bear, Turtle, Phoenix, and Tiger, AND ALSO 200% MAN SO I COULD SEE HOW YOU MIGHT MIX UP THAT HE IS ONLY PART BEAR I GUESS BUT YOU'D BE WRONG.

Still not a THUNDABEAR SPASHE MAWINE.

[Eurus]

Annie is more bear than you can handle.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

AD Tanky DPS Nidalee.

It's unclear to me how all her cougar abilities scale, so I don't know how good this is, but apparently all the cool kids are doing it. I tend to go FM rather than Atma's, not sure if that helps or hurts.

Does anyone else play Nidalee this way?

[Fredaintdead]

Annie is more bear than you can handle.

She does have a healthy amount of bear... particularly with the reverse skin.

[Silverraptor]

I just played a game where I was doing very badly against teemo as cho, feeding him 2 kills early on. But my teammates (Solo que) never raged at me and instead offered encouragement, like "Don't attak the minions if he's zoning you. Wait to hit them under your tower." I forgot how easy it is to farm as cho under the tower.

After that, in teamfights, we would wreck them. My allies were cracking jokes all the time. Vlad, who was our best player, said "I feel like I'm broke." He only had a Rylai's, hextech revolver, and boots. I replied, "You know what fixes that? Hats!" He replies, "And a nice monocle." (I was gentlemen cho) Galio then says, "So do Gold/5." when he had heart of gold, kage's, and philo. And Vlad's repsonse to that, "Blood/5"

My god, I haven't had that much fun while doing badly in a solo que.

And to top it all off, I got a triple kill and the ace in the end, and the Lee sin was raging at how his mid and bot failed hard. My response was, "Oh sure, pick on the interstellic bug in a silk top hat."

[TechnOkami]

He's only part bear. Besides, he's only bear when he's chasing. And even then he just has a bear-face. Effectively making him a Half-manbear. Not a THUNDABEAR.

Trueish, but he can also say (with the right skin) that he's a Beer! Can Heir Volibear say zat?

And since we're on the topic, I'll throw my two cents in:

League of Legends XXVI: It's Unbearable!

[Daverin]

Initial thought process makes this a decision based on what is sivir's main source of damage now. If it's the bounce from Richocete then tri-force is a noob trap. If she's now single target with incidental AoE, it is a great item because the ease in procing it. At which point the Metagolem is in fact, her new best build.

Which sums up my doubts of the rework quite nicely; actually. Since they are clearly trying to move Sivir from the AoE carry role to something else; where does that put her? Without the new base stats being insane; a high risk, micro heavy carry, with low, low reward. All the while competing in the same conceptual space as Vayne and Graves.

If there is one thing really annoying me, it is that her range is still going to be only 500! Really? I'm sorry, but she actually does not have anything that I can see to really justify being even that close to anybody; running around like a headless chicken does nothing to prevent an Akali from dashing into your face. I think with that, you are kind of right, and she is going to be more of ranged tanky dps than a true carry, running about with metagolem.

Oh, and how despite now having a CD, ricochet is still not-proccing on-hits, and still has damage dip-off. Oh, and Statikk said that they are actually nerfing other base stats to compensate for range.

I'm not a Sivir player, and to be honest, she is not catching my interest now, nor the rework changing my mind. But I can say, without some strange numbers that they haven't told us about, this is not looking like what she needs to get viable.