League of Legends XXV: Who is your Summoner, and what does he do?

[Eurus]

I actually liked Sivir a lot, and this is pretty depressing. It really does seem like a heavy nerf to her pushing power, with maybe a slight bonus to her burst in the form of that double-attack.

[toasty]

Ashe has a bad early game? Hmm, now that you mention it, she's unable to do much besides stay back and last hit. That's why I always max her E first; since I can't do any good harass in the first place, why bother investing at all, when I can have ALL THE MONIES?

Actually that's why you shouldn't max E first. Max Q first so that if a fight breaks out you're actually useful.

Ashe's problem is that she has low base stats early game but decent scaling, good kite, and the best ultimate in the game. This makes her hard to balance. Unlike someone like Graves who is basically all damage, Ashe is picked for utility. When people begin to pick a carry hero because of utility, instead of damage, it becomes hard to balance them. (The two most important things in this game: utility AND damage on one hero? Yeah, that is too good to be true). The end result was that Ashe had her utility nerfed hard to compound her other issues (mana management early game, poor base stats early game, no escapes/burst so putting her in any lane is risky, obviously she can't jungle) and make her essentially not very viable in the highest level of play. Ashe is still viable, but she is very risky. This is especially true when the FOTM with Ranged Carries is strong early game transitioning into good late game. Pretty much every single popular ranged carry will beat ashe in a straight up fight, and even if Ashe can get Soraka to sustain her you can just pick Sona+Trist and burst down Ashe far to easily.

The problem with Ashe is the problem with the game right now: Win Lane, Win Game. In lane sustain and burst are king. Ashe has neither sustain or burst, and thus does poorly against pretty much all the popular laners right now (come to think of it, its pretty much just midlane these days that has no sustain, and you tend to have massive burst cuz, you know, mages).

AD Tanky DPS Nidalee.

It's unclear to me how all her cougar abilities scale, so I don't know how good this is, but apparently all the cool kids are doing it. I tend to go FM rather than Atma's, not sure if that helps or hurts.

Does anyone else play Nidalee this way?

As captain of the Cool Kids Table, I can assure you that none of the cool kids are doing this.

Seriously though: Its really annoying to play against. You can auto attack all day and win your lane because you are ranged. You can push all day and not die from ganks because Ghost+Teleport+Defensive Masteries+Cougar Form = you never die. You can 1v1 any tankydps because your Kit is good. According to HotshotGG it takes no skill and he hates playing against it.

The build is something like this: Merc Treads, Wriggles, Metagolem (Triforce, Warmogs, Atmas, FoN). In other words: EVERY. SINGLE. TANKYDPS. TOP LANE. EVER. So yeah, that's why I don't play it, I prefer my triple gold/10 all-activateable CDR GP. Both a legit build AND YOU CAN TROLL YOUR TEAM AT THE SAME TIME. (For the record the final build is Mercs, Wriggles, QQS, Ghostblade, Omen, Shurelias).

[9mm]

If there is one thing really annoying me, it is that her range is still going to be only 500! Really? I'm sorry, but she actually does not have anything that I can see to really justify being even that close to anybody; running around like a headless chicken does nothing to prevent an Akali from dashing into your face. I think with that, you are kind of right, and she is going to be more of ranged tanky dps than a true carry, running about with metagolem.

Oh, and how despite now having a CD, ricochet is still not-proccing on-hits, and still has damage dip-off. Oh, and Statikk said that they are actually nerfing other base stats to compensate for range.

I'm not a Sivir player, and to be honest, she is not catching my interest now, nor the rework changing my mind. But I can say, without some strange numbers that they haven't told us about, this is not looking like what she needs to get viable.

And thus you realize why every person that actually plays sivir is pissed. It's a nerf, completely and utterly a nerf. And Statikk, because he doesn't play sivir, actually thinks he's BUFFING HER!

And you wonder why people consider the live team pants on head retarded.

[Dogmantra]

As captain of the Cool Kids Table, I can assure you that none of the cool kids are doing this.

Preeeetty sure that Shades and I are the only ones allowed at the Cool Kids' Table.

[Daverin]

As captain of the Cool Kids Table, I can assure you that none of the cool kids are doing this.

Seriously though: Its really annoying to play against. You can auto attack all day and win your lane because you are ranged. You can push all day and not die from ganks because Ghost+Teleport+Defensive Masteries+Cougar Form = you never die. You can 1v1 any tankydps because your Kit is good. According to HotshotGG it takes no skill and he hates playing against it.

The build is something like this: Merc Treads, Wriggles, Metagolem (Triforce, Warmogs, Atmas, FoN). In other words: EVERY. SINGLE. TANKYDPS. TOP LANE. EVER. So yeah, that's why I don't play it, I prefer my triple gold/10 all-activateable CDR GP. Both a legit build AND YOU CAN TROLL YOUR TEAM AT THE SAME TIME. (For the record the final build is Mercs, Wriggles, QQS, Ghostblade, Omen, Shurelias).

Huh. That sounds... too good. Is Nid still considered kind of too diverse in kit to be particularly good at one thing in, say, a teamfight? Or is that an old mentality that has proven not true? Admittedly, having someone who has that much kit sounds pretty nice. Also, what is the other major way to play Nid?

[Lix Lorn]

I've played Sivir... once, and this doesn't look like a buff to me.

[9mm]

Huh. That sounds... too good. Is Nid still considered kind of too diverse in kit to be particularly good at one thing in, say, a teamfight? Or is that an old mentality that has proven not true? Admittedly, having someone who has that much kit sounds pretty nice. Also, what is the other major way to play Nid?

Tanky AP siege/support nid.

[Makensha]

I've played Sivir... once, and this doesn't look like a buff to me.

Remember Gangplank? Fiddlesticks? Even if weak on release, they'll take care of it.

[term1nally s1ck]

Guys, you're judging sivir on her new kit before seeing any numbers.

Just as a reminder, a while back there was a champion who had a knockup/knockback on one skill, a dash that also snares the target, mini wards that explode and do damage if an enemy goes near them, and a massive AoE ultimate that ALSO reduces damage that all of your team take in the AoE.

Without numbers, that kit sounds ABSURDLY overpowered. Wait and see the base damage on ricochet and boomerang blade, wait and see how it all works. She sounds like an INCREDIBLE laner right now, and with a fair amount of AoE on those abilities, she'd be another ranged carry that does AoE damage, cos the only one right now is MF.

[Daverin]

... Graves, Ashe, Kog, even Corki with a well placed R and his E?

Obviously, numbers make the difference. That said, with some important numbers revealed, the ability numbers? They honestly need to be something pretty darn good to make up for it. And, if nothing else, I do not see an increase on Boomerang's bases. That, and base stat nerfs. So far, what numbers we do have are not promising.

Of course, Makensha has a good point. Although I argue that GP, at least, has a better fundamental kit than Sivir does. Can't really say for Fiddles.

[9mm]

Guys, you're judging sivir on her new kit before seeing any numbers.

Just as a reminder, a while back there was a champion who had a knockup/knockback on one skill, a dash that also snares the target, mini wards that explode and do damage if an enemy goes near them, and a massive AoE ultimate that ALSO reduces damage that all of your team take in the AoE.

Without numbers, that kit sounds ABSURDLY overpowered. Wait and see the base damage on ricochet and boomerang blade, wait and see how it all works. She sounds like an INCREDIBLE laner right now, and with a fair amount of AoE on those abilities, she'd be another ranged carry that does AoE damage, cos the only one right now is MF.

to bad we HAVE NUMBERS!

go look at her stats on LoL Wiki; now increase the AA range by 75 and her movespeed by 50. now subtract numbers from everything else. Statikk confirmed across the board number nerfs. BB's scaling is going down (loss of AP scaling), though it now does physical damage, spell shields mana costs are going up, ult unchanged. The only number we DON'T KNOW is Richocte's new base damage and new AD scaling; however the total dps is confirmed to less than what she has now.

And Moakai is OP, people just haven't fully realized it yet.

Remember Gangplank? Fiddlesticks? Even if weak on release, they'll take care of it.

Like they have for Kayle?

[efdf]

to bad we HAVE NUMBERS!

go look at her stats on LoL Wiki; now increase the AA range by 75 and her movespeed by 50. now subtract numbers from everything else. Statikk confirmed across the board number nerfs. BB's scaling is going down (loss of AP scaling), though it now does physical damage, spell shields mana costs are going up, ult unchanged. The only number we DON'T KNOW is Richocte's new base damage and new AD scaling; however the total dps is confirmed to less than what she has now.

So what you're saying is that it completely relies on Ricochet's new base damage and new AD scaling, as in numbers you don't have access to.

Because removal of AP scaling on BB and an increase of spell shield's mana cost is nothing compared to an increase of AA range by 75 and movespeed by 50; those are gigantic buffs.

What I can tell you is, at max rank Ricochet has a 3 second cooldown. At rank 2, it appears to be buffing her damage by 45 on the initial strike, and 30 at rank 1. It appears that each bounce reduces damage by 25% just as before and that damage reduction is independent of level of the skill.

[Daverin]

I don't recall AD scaling being a part of Ricochet, actually (I would say I saw that scaling is not intended, but I have no source for that. I can say the only mention was of a base damage addition to it.) And it relies on it to a degree that is unsafe to assume it will balance it out. the range and MS are very good, but running just does not cut it against assassins, and having less than 550 range as a carry is very dangerous, which is probably why she was not a reliable pick in the first place (although she substituted it with just hitting the tank and hitting everyone else, or so I understand it.) In other words, she is having other base stat nerfs and losing her key mechanism to make up for her lack of range, but her range is still not being made up to par with other carries in return. That, fundamentally, is why I am less than enchanted with where this is going. If they just gave her 550, I would consider this just fine. As it stands, she still doesn't have a kit to justify having 50 less than standard. At least, so long as she is considered AD carry (even if off-carry or some weird qualifier such as that.)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

go look at her stats on LoL Wiki; now increase the AA range by 75 and her movespeed by 50. now subtract numbers from everything else. Statikk confirmed across the board number nerfs. BB's scaling is going down (loss of AP scaling), though it now does physical damage, spell shields mana costs are going up, ult unchanged. The only number we DON'T KNOW is Richocte's new base damage and new AD scaling; however the total dps is confirmed to less than what she has now.

Do this. Now figure it in with Boomerang Blade doing physical damage, ArPen runes, and some offense spec. Calculate the damage that a level 1 Boomerang Blade with 21 flat ArPen and 10% ArPen can do to an enemy champion.

Now give Ricochet some base damage, and give it a cooldown scaling all the way down to 3 seconds (without CDR). Make it hit 5 targets at all levels. Sivir's early-game harass has shot up, and the post that told us this makes me think the damage fall-off on Ricochet may have dropped slightly, meaning this becomes a really reliable harassing tool in lane. Even if it doesn't drop, it's still going to be a pain to get hit with. It also re-set the AA timer, meaning Sivir now has a viable laning 1-2 punch that will deal over x2 AA damage in the timeframe of a single auto-attack.

I'm not really defending the changes, as I'm not much of a Sivir player, but I'll be honest when I say that I'm somewhat wary of facing the new Sivir in lane...I think she'll actually have a very strong early game, and it seems like a strong enough one that I'm actually a bit worried.

[Daverin]

... Okay, so now we have the Tryndamere treatment? Lower the lategame damage, while not really addressing the weaknesses which cause highly binary play, but at the same time give a significant buff to early game that causes much turmoil whenever that character is in play? Because of all the reworks, that is the only one I actually consider failed, conceptually. If that is what happens to Sivir, then this will cause a whole new slew of problems.

[Makensha]

Like they have for Kayle?

Yes. Kayle is fine. Maybe not amazing, but she's still good. Good damage, good utility, fantastic ult.

Remember that Statikk is way better than you, and he's tested the changes.

They aren't remaking champs because they're bored.

[9mm]

So what you're saying is that it completely relies on Ricochet's new base damage and new AD scaling, as in numbers you don't have access to.

yes and no; see they have COMFIRMED that Sivir's total dps (currently highest in the game) is going down. So the question is, essentially. Is this new AoE damage in equal worth as vayne's true damage or point blank Grave's buckshot. If yes, she'll probably be in a good spot, and we're looking at another Gragas situation; old players get shafted, while new playstyle takes over and is generally well liked. But based on the information I do have, the answer is a giant NOPE.AVI

Do this. Now figure it in with Boomerang Blade doing physical damage, ArPen runes, and some offense spec. Calculate the damage that a level 1 Boomerang Blade with 21 flat ArPen and 10% ArPen can do to an enemy champion.

Now give Ricochet some base damage, and give it a cooldown scaling all the way down to 3 seconds (without CDR). Make it hit 5 targets at all levels. Sivir's early-game harass has shot up, and the post that told us this makes me think the damage fall-off on Ricochet may have dropped slightly, meaning this becomes a really reliable harassing tool in lane. Even if it doesn't drop, it's still going to be a pain to get hit with. It also re-set the AA timer, meaning Sivir now has a viable laning 1-2 punch that will deal over x2 AA damage in the timeframe of a single auto-attack.

I'm not really defending the changes, as I'm not much of a Sivir player, but I'll be honest when I say that I'm somewhat wary of facing the new Sivir in lane...I think she'll actually have a very strong early game, and it seems like a strong enough one that I'm actually a bit worried.

BB's damage reduction is still in effect, and I'm really not seeing riot lowering Ricochet's fall off either. so Assuming a point blank shot with no minions, her initial burst is probably going up; however that's a rare best case scenario in lane.

[Zeful]

I'm not really defending the changes, as I'm not much of a Sivir player, but I'll be honest when I say that I'm somewhat wary of facing the new Sivir in lane...I think she'll actually have a very strong early game, and it seems like a strong enough one that I'm actually a bit worried.

Why would you? Pick any character made in the last year. Use your Q twice as often as spell shield, push Sivir out of lane by simple attrition. Or, play Caitlyn, build early AS and ignore the spellshield, push Sivir out of lane by simple attrition.

Sivir is squishy like Vayne is, and has no way to get out, her spellshield is for sustain, but with the health pot nerf, she no longer has any long term sustain in any lane.

[9mm]

Why would you? Pick any character made in the last year. Use your Q twice as often as spell shield, push Sivir out of lane by simple attrition. Or, play Caitlyn, build early AS and ignore the spellshield, push Sivir out of lane by simple attrition.

Sivir is squishy like Vayne is, and has no way to get out, her spellshield is for sustain, but with the health pot nerf, she no longer has any long term sustain in any lane.

eh Caitlyn will still be one of Sivirs favored match ups. Caitlyn + a support on the other hand...

[Makensha]

Why would you? Pick any character made in the last year. Use your Q twice as often as spell shield, push Sivir out of lane by simple attrition. Or, play Caitlyn, build early AS and ignore the spellshield, push Sivir out of lane by simple attrition.

Sivir is squishy like Vayne is, and has no way to get out, her spellshield is for sustain, but with the health pot nerf, she no longer has any long term sustain in any lane.

I'm confused what your point is. Sivir can Q you back while also reducing the damage taken overtime. Sure, she'll probably have troubles with Cait, but who doesn't? And the health pot changes hurt everyone... so what is your point?

[efdf]

Taric + Sivir will be rather monstrous

[term1nally s1ck]

Except with her fairly high movement speed due to new passive, and the ability to harass at a higher range than anything else in the game via ricochet when they have 4 or less minions, as well as the huge range on boomerang blade, she *will* out-harass you. If you both have a healer to negate minor harass, you *will* run out of mana before she does due to spell shield.

9mm, her *total* dps is assuming she is constantly autoattacking and ricochet is hitting 5 people.

Her burst, both single target and AoE, is going up at all stages of the game, thanks to the autoattack reset and BB becoming physical, her single target damage is increasing due to the same, her AoE if she can constantly attack into a cluster is going down.

However, compared to any other ranged carry, she will still be the best in that situation, because ricochet makes you do something like 300% damage on that attack. Plus the bonus damage. Plus BB.

So they made her not quite so good at her best, but buffed every other aspect. That seems a pretty good deal to me.

[Silverraptor]

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